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Post by faune on Aug 6, 2011 18:32:39 GMT -5
(supporting workers who in all reality are just normal human beings who don't feel like doing real actual work! And want to mooch off of their members in exchange for their 'salvation') and get out. Wrong. As a former worker, I can guarantee you that I worked harder then I do now. But now I get paid very well, and I have the freedom to live as I want. The workers for the most part work very hard and are in bondage by the fish bowl that they live in. I do not agree with the worker lifestyle. I do not think that it is the same form of ministry that Jesus instituted. I do not think that it is even close, but, the men and women in the work are some of the best people on earth, in my opinion. They are just in bondage to certain man made traditions.Alexander ~ Somehow I missed your earlier post and just wanted to comment on it. The comments I highlighted in blue, I definitely agree with you on. I have known many fine people who were workers and a number of them are now no longer in the work or the faith. It seems along the way they got their fill of the "traditions of men" and decided they wanted a real relationship with Christ and not centered around a "performance curve" of pass or fail, depending how many loops you jump through to please the overseer. The workers' story who have left the faith have really touched my heart, because they seem the most painful! However, those with integrity, like yourself, know what it means "to thine own self be true." You have paid the price of transparency and honesty in your opinions and I appreciate that very much about you. I realize you don't know me, but I have read many of your posts and respect you highly for your stand for decency and truthfulness.
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Post by faune on Aug 6, 2011 19:16:36 GMT -5
At the risk of offending, I think you betray a lack of understanding about religion, and why loyalty develops. Let's start with the obvious: the life-value of believing has little or nothing to do with whether what you believe is right or true. That conclusion is inescapeable just by looking at all the happy believers in contradictory belief systems. But now going on to the next step: belief is important. It seems, if you don't believe, you don't get much of the value of the religion. So, people believe because it works, and it works because they believe, and the more they believe, the better religion works, and the better religion works, the more they believe. And it just plain doesn't matter what you believe in.
Now, the Truth is one of the more intense belief systems. They meet often, the exclusiveness promotes the system, and the more intense the experience, the better it works, and the more they believe. You can therefore see that the intensity translates to greater contentedness.
And none of this has anything to do with factuality. It's just the way religion works. But it's hard to criticize believers even when they believe something other than what you do, because they so clearly are reaping the benefits of believing. And so, it might be best to recognize the goodness of religion, and just let people alone, until through some complication or offense they lose faith, and it quits working, and it all begins to seem so obviously "wrong." Then, hopefully, they'll find something else to believe in.[/color] If it's really true that people will believe almost anything so long as it's presented appealingly within a 'religious' experience, mankind has a long ways to go before he becomes free. I don't believe your seeming assertion that beliefs do not matter.[/quote] Lee ~ From mingling with all kinds of people from different faiths, and some really off the map, I tend to agree with Dubious Disciple on this point. However, he does admit in the highlighted portion that "belief is important" if you are going to get any value out of your religious experience. He also commented that the "greater the intensity of our faith, the greater our contentment," which is also true. However, the bottom line would be to put your faith in something sound and with lasting value and that will enhance your life in the long run. For myself, I have only one person that deserves that place of honor and that is Jesus Christ Himself. When we center our belief around a certain method of worship as a means of salvation, we are fooling nobody but ourselves. It's truly a heart matter between each individual and their Lord, if they are a true believer, and you don't need any workers or church affiliation to confirm your belief in Jesus Christ. However, once you have made a commitment in your heart, it's good to get connected to a sound church who upholds Christian teachings and honors God's Word. If not, you could find yourself taking another detour into the "twilight zone" of religious confusion and disappointment.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 6, 2011 23:32:58 GMT -5
I think ram's premise was that those with a high moral standard would tend to live more moral lives ... something I don't think is true, and actually, I would class as indeterminable. I don't understand. How can someone get an F because of their moral standard? You miss the point What. It was people who "live" by high moral standards as opposed to those who do not. It is a general statement. Oh I get it. People who live by high moral standards are the ones who live by high moral standards.
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Post by Lee on Aug 6, 2011 23:41:01 GMT -5
[/color] If it's really true that people will believe almost anything so long as it's presented appealingly within a 'religious' experience, mankind has a long ways to go before he becomes free. I don't believe your seeming assertion that beliefs do not matter.[/quote] Lee ~ From mingling with all kinds of people from different faiths, and some really off the map, I tend to agree with Dubious Disciple on this point. However, he does admit in the highlighted portion that "belief is important" if you are going to get any value out of your religious experience. He also commented that the "greater the intensity of our faith, the greater our contentment," which is also true. However, the bottom line would be to put your faith in something sound and with lasting value and that will enhance your life in the long run. For myself, I have only one person that deserves that place of honor and that is Jesus Christ Himself. When we center our belief around a certain method of worship as a means of salvation, we are fooling nobody but ourselves. It's truly a heart matter between each individual and their Lord, if they are a true believer, and you don't need any workers or church affiliation to confirm your belief in Jesus Christ. However, once you have made a commitment in your heart, it's good to get connected to a sound church who upholds Christian teachings and honors God's Word. If not, you could find yourself taking another detour into the "twilight zone" of religious confusion and disappointment.[/quote] The happiest people in the world are those who are able to worship Jesus Christ in their spouses and families. No church experience, cult or otherwise holds a candle to it. DD was emphasizing the intensity of beliefs, not the quality of them.
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Post by imnx2 on Aug 7, 2011 9:52:42 GMT -5
You miss the point What. It was people who "live" by high moral standards as opposed to those who do not. It is a general statement. Oh I get it. People who live by high moral standards are the ones who live by high moral standards. That was my understanding. Those most likely to have lower standards are most likely to have lower standards and those who have higher standards are most likely to have higher standards. If the implication is cloudy, I apologize. If inference seems difficult, I apologize. Can there be implication without inference or inference without implication?
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Post by What Hat on Aug 7, 2011 11:47:02 GMT -5
Oh I get it. People who live by high moral standards are the ones who live by high moral standards. That was my understanding. Those most likely to have lower standards are most likely to have lower standards and those who have higher standards are most likely to have higher standards. If the implication is cloudy, I apologize. If inference seems difficult, I apologize. Can there be implication without inference or inference without implication? And further, those most likely to live by them are most likely to live by them, and those less likely to live by them are less likely to live by them.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 7, 2011 11:48:56 GMT -5
Wrong. As a former worker, I can guarantee you that I worked harder then I do now. But now I get paid very well, and I have the freedom to live as I want. The workers for the most part work very hard and are in bondage by the fish bowl that they live in. I do not agree with the worker lifestyle. I do not think that it is the same form of ministry that Jesus instituted. I do not think that it is even close, but, the men and women in the work are some of the best people on earth, in my opinion. They are just in bondage to certain man made traditions.Alexander ~ Somehow I missed your earlier post and just wanted to comment on it. The comments I highlighted in blue, I definitely agree with you on. I have known many fine people who were workers and a number of them are now no longer in the work or the faith. It seems along the way they got their fill of the "traditions of men" and decided they wanted a real relationship with Christ and not centered around a "performance curve" of pass or fail, depending how many loops you jump through to please the overseer. The workers' story who have left the faith have really touched my heart, because they seem the most painful! However, those with integrity, like yourself, know what it means "to thine own self be true." You have paid the price of transparency and honesty in your opinions and I appreciate that very much about you. I realize you don't know me, but I have read many of your posts and respect you highly for your stand for decency and truthfulness. Condescension alert, faune.
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Post by rational on Aug 7, 2011 13:08:49 GMT -5
Anyway it is worthy of further note, that after covering quite some mileage you did eventually end up agreeing with both the original posts from Crissy and I which you chose to be contentious about, albeit with a caveat which any normal person would have taken for granted in the first place. I fail to understand why you continue to make posts which distort the truth to the point that they are lies. I have never disagreed nor aagreed with the original post made by Crissy. I simply stated that she would find it difficult to support what she had written. And I am certain they thank you for that service. The wonderful thing about this message board is that there is an ignore feature that I helped to install so you, and others like you, who are interested in posting but not concerned whether the details that support their post are true can ignore any poster who asks for verification of these details.
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Post by rational on Aug 7, 2011 13:11:19 GMT -5
Everybody can't Always be right...takes a big person to admit that though, eh? Not really. Anyone can admit it. But do you feel that one should admit it even if it is not true?
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Post by rational on Aug 7, 2011 22:37:03 GMT -5
Ram, Laddie, I think that getting Rational to not argue pointlessly, is much like teaching a pig to sing. It is a waste of time and irritates the pig. That is why I just opted out.........................Glen I am sure it is exactly like that! It is amazing how this becomes the situation is judged as pointless just when it becomes obvious that your argument lacks legs!
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Post by faune on Aug 8, 2011 11:46:03 GMT -5
Alexander ~ Somehow I missed your earlier post and just wanted to comment on it. The comments I highlighted in blue, I definitely agree with you on. I have known many fine people who were workers and a number of them are now no longer in the work or the faith. It seems along the way they got their fill of the "traditions of men" and decided they wanted a real relationship with Christ and not centered around a "performance curve" of pass or fail, depending how many loops you jump through to please the overseer. The workers' story who have left the faith have really touched my heart, because they seem the most painful! However, those with integrity, like yourself, know what it means "to thine own self be true." You have paid the price of transparency and honesty in your opinions and I appreciate that very much about you. I realize you don't know me, but I have read many of your posts and respect you highly for your stand for decency and truthfulness. Condescension alert, faune. What~ Are you referring to my highlighted in blue remarks above? Like I said before, that's just my personal opinion from talking to different ones who were in the work and got really burnt out by all the requirements to please the overseers. Some not only left the ministry, but the faith altogether! Today some of them are the wiser and "happy campers" in their new lifestyle and beliefs.
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Post by faune on Dec 19, 2015 10:36:45 GMT -5
As is often the case, legal issues and ethical issues are very different. True, but people who lack ethics are more likely to push the boundaries of the law then those with high ethical standards.This seems to be the thread where overseer ethics are discussed? Below is the post that got cut when I re-posted this comment.
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Post by blacksheep on Dec 19, 2015 11:26:03 GMT -5
Faune, after reading this post, I had to have a talk with Ma, who is a lifelong 2by. I cautioned her that no matter who she wills her money to, she must leave enough in her account to pay for the same kind of funeral she gave Pa, if that's what she expects to have for herself. Should she will all her money to the workers, we'll have to torch her, and sell the plot next to Pa in order to pay for the process. Who knows who might get the plot next to Pa? Likely some ol' worldly gal, no doubt all dolled up in earrings and lipstick, probably hair coloring and the rest of it!
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Post by blandie on Dec 19, 2015 14:27:56 GMT -5
CrissySnow is right that legacy-seeking is unseemly. I know its been brought up by workers and elders in my own family and tho the continuing pressure isn't always or usually in direct language the heavy hints are unmistakable. Most is directed to leaving in the hands of certain trustees/elders but theres also instances of individual workers getting inheritances. Gotsta 'give all' even if its only after dying - so the question becomes 'after all this giving all - who is it who ends up getting all?' It surely isn't god who needs anyone's money and property - what kind of god would that be?
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