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Post by reallyandtruly on Sept 3, 2014 19:13:39 GMT -5
The ironic part is that they condemn churches who ask for money (I have never heard a minister ask for money for himself) while at the same time the workers ring up and ask to come for a meal. Asking to come to someones place for a meal is not acceptable behavior in any ones books bu then most workers social skills are badly lacking. And just imagine how the workers felt when they had to sit through a meal and a visit with someone so 'tight that they dont even want to share their food with them!! Awful. Maybe they were hoping you would say no. They are caught between a rock and a hard place because if they don't visit, those people they say - 'they only go to the certain homes- they wouldn't come to us", even though they didnt want them. They cant win!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2014 20:04:57 GMT -5
The ironic part is that they condemn churches who ask for money (I have never heard a minister ask for money for himself) while at the same time the workers ring up and ask to come for a meal. Asking to come to someones place for a meal is not acceptable behavior in any ones books bu then most workers social skills are badly lacking. And just imagine how the workers felt when they had to sit through a meal and a visit with someone so 'tight that they dont even want to share their food with them!! Awful. Maybe they were hoping you would say no. They are caught between a rock and a hard place because if they don't visit, those people they say - 'they only go to the certain homes- they wouldn't come to us", even though they didnt want them. They cant win! Reallyandtruly, on this issue, we are in full agreement, and I for one am in full sympathy with the workers for the dilema their system puts them in regarding this issue. One companion of mine only went where we were specifically invited, staying only a few days until we we specifically were invited elsewhere, and we told all in public that was our policy that year. Nobody could complain that way, and we had lots of invitations, some waiting a few days for us to come stay with them. It was my assignment to keep track of invitations, and call ahead to see if it was still convenient for us to come next. Seemed to work out ok.
That companion and I would never have thought of inviting ourselves to stay or go anywhere uninvited, as was my policy ever thereafter. I feel badly that this is an issue for anyone anywhere. fair is fair, and I have no desire to be unfair to workers now as they work within that methodology. I loved my cohorts then, and continue to do so even though I no longer agree with them on many subjects. I just believe differently now about that "calling."
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Post by Mary on Sept 3, 2014 22:50:54 GMT -5
The ironic part is that they condemn churches who ask for money (I have never heard a minister ask for money for himself) while at the same time the workers ring up and ask to come for a meal. Asking to come to someones place for a meal is not acceptable behavior in any ones books bu then most workers social skills are badly lacking. And just imagine how the workers felt when they had to sit through a meal and a visit with someone so 'tight that they dont even want to share their food with them!! Awful. Maybe they were hoping you would say no. They are caught between a rock and a hard place because if they don't visit, those people they say - 'they only go to the certain homes- they wouldn't come to us", even though they didnt want them. They cant win! It was not an issue with me at the time. I was too compliant to know I could say no. It was a problem to other people though.
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Post by bubbles on Sept 4, 2014 1:29:22 GMT -5
Rational and Dennis Burning documents one way to get rid of evidence. Or Hiding it locking it away. Eg ancient scrolls. Generally, hiding them away is done by people who wish to preserve them so they will not be destroyed. Thats my point.
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Post by whyisitso on Sept 4, 2014 4:32:34 GMT -5
Rational and Dennis Burning documents one way to get rid of evidence. Or Hiding it locking it away. Eg ancient scrolls. Wasn't Willis's request for a locked office one of the issues that led to Didsbury changing hands? My experience with WP was interesting to say the least.... I was laid up with a crook knee at some kind friends place in Canada where WP & his companion happened to be staying. I didn't know anything about him... Anyways, my nap on the couch was rudely interrupted by WP coming upstairs cause evidently the mobile/cel phone service was no good downstairs, loudly calling a company on his mobile/cel phone to order a mail sorting system for his laptop with his Gold Amex ....(his words) I remember thinking - a phone, a laptop AND an Amex card? Good job he's 'homeless'! I guess he was able to afford the annual fee cause he didn't need to pay for food or rent or electricity or water or car rego or fuel or anything really.... Oh except his mail sorting service .... And probably all those plane tickets for his jaunts.... and the odd hotel to meet up with his mates etc etc.... I remember not being particularly impressed. Wonder what happened to the oil shares?
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Post by bubbles on Sept 4, 2014 6:21:08 GMT -5
Whyisitso
Wow.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2014 10:25:48 GMT -5
That spirit appeared to me to have been contagiouus. My wife Ylva at the time and I were standing in line waiting for a meal at Walla Walla convention in the mid 60's when a woman in line began bragging about being asked to drive "him" down to that convention because they were the only ones in the province with a new and fine enough car to do so. We just looked at each other, later listening to "him" speak I perceived a major change in "him" and his manner of ministry, commenting to my wife that he and his manner had changed drastically. It was years later we heard just how much...
Surely "Absolute power corrupts absolutely".
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Post by emy on Sept 4, 2014 21:31:52 GMT -5
"... later listening to "him" speak I perceived a major change in "him" and his manner of ministry,..."
Anyone know what his current condition is?
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Post by penguin on Sept 5, 2014 1:20:32 GMT -5
] Just ignoring the letter heading what he is saying in this 75 year old letter is the most authoritative statement which has ever come to my notice It comes from a man who was there from near "the beginning" (must have professed at turn of the century) and is an open admission that it was a revival of trying to get back to scriptural systems of worship and ministry and church structure Nothing since from people you could expect better of (eg W.Propp) comes near and the letter ought to be a compulsory part of workers initiation. The vast majority (I estimate more than 95%) will never have even heard of it. His Will was likewise interesting in which he said any cash found on him had been given for the furtherance of the gospel and should be used for that same purpose
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Post by Persona non grata on Sept 5, 2014 13:45:34 GMT -5
Thank you for raising this issue, elizabethcoleman. My main concern about the ministry's accumulation of funds, is the corruption and deceit that accompanies it. When we follow only the form (of a poor, homeless ministry), we lose sight of the function (to live by faith). I believe that Jesus’ requirements for His servants were: to leave all; to give their money to the poor (and to continue giving to the poor); and to follow Him. His ministry was a humble ministry, a ministry of servants in service. The whole point was that, by not having any considerable earthly means, they were wholly reliant on God to provide. They went forth in faith, dependent on God each day. And they were spiritually wealthy. Most of the early workers, such as John Long, lived by this same pattern, and some others still do. But for the majority of workers today, faith in God for their daily provision, doesn’t seem to play much of a part. They are “guaranteed” food and lodging, and a standard of living far exceeding that of a servant. In 1900 workers were advised to invest in a sturdy pair of walking boots. In 1955, the advice was to purchase a quality wrist watch before going into the ministry. By 2010, it was a lap-top and a smart-phone. A large part of the blame lies with us “friends”. We have, as a result of our own abundance, created this monster. We have exalted these ministers above their rightful position of servants, we have contributed to the excess of funds. Jesus saw that the widow’s two coins were much more valuable (both to the widow and to the church) than the abundance of the wealthy. If the Spirit truly leads the offerings then there would surely be more “widow’s coins” and less abundance of funds.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 14:50:30 GMT -5
Most of the early workers, such as John Long, lived by this same pattern, and some others still do. But for the majority of workers today, faith in God for their daily provision, doesn’t seem to play much of a part. They are “guaranteed” food and lodging, and a standard of living far exceeding that of a servant. i don't know living out of 2 suit cases and a garment bag doesn't seem to me to exceed that of a servant...
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Post by Persona non grata on Sept 5, 2014 16:29:29 GMT -5
Jesus used all kinds of transportation (walking, boats, riding a donkey), ways (stop by the well talking to people, teaching people in the synagogues), places to meet and share the gospel with. If Jesus were here today! He would use laptops to make plans, cell phone contacting his disciples. Jesus would fly from place to place, riding in the car another form of spreading the gospel from one place to another. He would have some in the ministry like Judas to look after the group money bags, to buy food or whatever... Public transport provides excellent opportunities to spread the gospel. Our local workers this year tend to use a private car only as a last resort, preferring trains and buses whenever possible, and walking or cycling locally. The money bag that Judas was in charge of was also used to give money to the poor (as per Jesus' instruction).
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Post by rational on Sept 5, 2014 16:58:42 GMT -5
ALL of the workers must put forth the efforts in seeking the lost sheep, lost coins, prodigals out in the world. Why are the workers seeking prodigals?
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Post by emy on Sept 5, 2014 20:54:12 GMT -5
Thank you for raising this issue, elizabethcoleman. ... ... But for the majority of workers today, faith in God for their daily provision, doesn’t seem to play much of a part. They are “guaranteed” food and lodging, and a standard of living far exceeding that of a servant. Have you considered places like Bangladesh, Bolivia and others?In 1900 workers were advised to invest in a sturdy pair of walking boots. In 1955, the advice was to purchase a quality wrist watch before going into the ministry. By 2010, it was a lap-top and a smart-phone. I will have to take your word for it. I assume you have inside info.A large part of the blame lies with us “friends”. We have, as a result of our own abundance, created this monster. We have exalted these ministers above their rightful position of servants, we have contributed to the excess of funds. Yes, this is true. But would it be appropriate for our ministers to live like "poor" servants? How would that work? When they come to stay, we give them beds less comfortable than ours and serve them meals more humble than we usually eat?Jesus saw that the widow’s two coins were much more valuable (both to the widow and to the church) than the abundance of the wealthy. If the Spirit truly leads the offerings then there would surely be more “widow’s coins” and less abundance of funds. That's possible, but are we saying the Spirit is NOT leading the offering? Do we know what God is preparing for us (think Joseph in Egypt)? What might be the needs of the future?
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Post by faune on Sept 5, 2014 23:13:51 GMT -5
Why are the workers seeking prodigals? People raising in the truth but didn't profess or used to profess but now no longer for whatever reasons. They are sinners and need a Savior. I have gotten in touch with some prodigals through my website/message board.Nathan ~ Please clarify who you are calling prodicals or lost souls here? I'm sure you are aware that some people who have left the 2x2's have gone on to other churches that suit them better and have not lost their faith or confidence in God as a result of departing the 2x2's? In fact, for some, their faith has increased as a result of becoming connected to a Bible-based church, which engages in mission work and expository teaching, which expands their knowledge of the Bible as well as provides areas for usefulness within the community or within overseas mission outreach programs? My own church has engaged in both for some time and it's truly a blessing to see love in action within one's community and abroad. I believe you would cause such "hands-on Christianity?" Surely, you don't consider such committed Christians outside the will of God because of leaving the 2x2's and finding another place to call home?
P.S. For the record, I professed for 30 years, but when I left, neither friend or worker ever contacted me again or even inquired concerning the reason for my absence. How do you equate that with caring or concern on behalf of the workers or friends? If they considered me lost for leaving their group, why no effort to seek me out or encourage me to return to the fold? Doesn't sound like a loving fellowship to me where people are respected and valued for their part. However, I have attended different churches since and moved on to another over time, but some folks still keep in touch and want to be friends. How do you explain that one compared to the treatment that many receive when they leave the 2x2's? Something is apparently lacking in the area of love and concern for one another as brethern in Christ, IMHO?
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Post by bubbles on Sept 6, 2014 1:22:31 GMT -5
Why are the workers seeking prodigals? People raising in the truth but didn't profess or used to profess but now no longer for whatever reasons. They are sinners and need a Savior. I have gotten in touch with some prodigals through my website/message board.Is this how they view you and I? Hadnt thought of myself as a prodigal.
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Post by rational on Sept 6, 2014 1:28:44 GMT -5
Why are the workers seeking prodigals? People raising in the truth but didn't profess or used to profess but now no longer for whatever reasons. They are sinners and need a Savior. I have gotten in touch with some prodigals through my website/message board.Do you know the definition of prodigal?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 6, 2014 2:18:36 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Please clarify who you are calling prodicals or lost souls here? I'm sure you are aware that some people who have left the 2x2's have gone on to other churches that suit them better and have not lost their faith or confidence in God as a result of departing the 2x2's? In fact, for some, their faith has increased as a result of becoming connected to a Bible-based church, which engages in mission work and expository teaching, which expands their knowledge of the Bible as well as provides areas for usefulness within the community or within overseas mission outreach programs? My own church has engaged in both for some time and it's truly a blessing to see love in action within one's community and abroad. I believe you would cause such "hands-on Christianity?" Surely, you don't consider such committed Christians outside the will of God because of leaving the 2x2's and finding another place to call home? Prodigals are those raised in the truth but never surrender to Jesus.... Or those who once professed but for whatever reason are no longer serving God.Nathan, did you read what you wrote here? "Those that once professed but for whatever reason are no longer serving God". So does that mean if someone stops professing or is excommunicated they are no longer serving God?
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 6, 2014 2:24:08 GMT -5
Why are the workers seeking prodigals? People raising in the truth but didn't profess or used to profess but now no longer for whatever reasons. They are sinners and need a Savior. I have gotten in touch with some prodigals through my website/message board. So people who no longer profess are sinners ??
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Post by whyisitso on Sept 6, 2014 3:49:03 GMT -5
Nathan ~ Please clarify who you are calling prodicals or lost souls here? I'm sure you are aware that some people who have left the 2x2's have gone on to other churches that suit them better and have not lost their faith or confidence in God as a result of departing the 2x2's? In fact, for some, their faith has increased as a result of becoming connected to a Bible-based church, which engages in mission work and expository teaching, which expands their knowledge of the Bible as well as provides areas for usefulness within the community or within overseas mission outreach programs? My own church has engaged in both for some time and it's truly a blessing to see love in action within one's community and abroad. I believe you would cause such "hands-on Christianity?" Surely, you don't consider such committed Christians outside the will of God because of leaving the 2x2's and finding another place to call home? Prodigals are those raised in the truth but never surrender to Jesus.... Or those who once professed but for whatever reason are no longer serving God.Oh gosh..... I can't believe you're self righteous enough to actually say that out loud..... I wonder what percentage of the 'friends' believe this? I'd say it's pretty high, but I think it's changing from year to year, s l o w l y.
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Post by whyisitso on Sept 6, 2014 6:18:28 GMT -5
So people who no longer profess are sinners ?? Yes, if they are no longer serving/believing in God.Nathan do you believe that people can serve/believe in God outside of the 2x2/meetings/'truth'way?
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Post by whyisitso on Sept 6, 2014 6:24:15 GMT -5
Nathan do you believe that people can serve/believe in God outside of the 2x2/meetings/'truth'way? ~~ Yes but it is according to His Will? Serving Him outside of the 2x2system?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 6, 2014 6:32:33 GMT -5
Hi NathanB, very interested in your statement re the 10%of wealth to different charities. Do you have any reason to believe that the workers do this with the income they receive?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Sept 6, 2014 6:43:09 GMT -5
So people who no longer profess are sinners ?? Yes, if they are no longer serving/believing in God.NathanB, well, at least you're more honest than most of the workers who believe this but use double talk - "we don't judge" or "we can't say". I'm wondering what you make of the following verses: (1 Cor 12:3-6) 3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
4 There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. 5 There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6 There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.
For those of us who used to profess, and have left, and yet still proclaim that "Jesus is Lord", by what Spirit do we do this? Surely it is an extremely dangerous thing to stand as judge of where and how and who God chooses to work in and through? Surely that is his call, not yours?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2014 9:16:28 GMT -5
Most of the early workers, such as John Long, lived by this same pattern, and some others still do. But for the majority of workers today, faith in God for their daily provision, doesn’t seem to play much of a part. They are “guaranteed” food and lodging, and a standard of living far exceeding that of a servant. i don't know living out of 2 suit cases and a garment bag doesn't seem to me to exceed that of a servant... Agreed, Wally, and though I knew of a few who lived out of two suitcases and a garment bag, everyone of us are no longer "workers." Knew of one who needed two dozen suitcases, and they weren't little ones neither! Some who have died have had a great deal of things to dispose of, while on the other hand some very little. As usual, just not good to generalize either way.
Then too, there are other considerations. For instance, I had a small portable mimeograph, typewriter, and violin which were in addition to my one suitcase and garment bag. Good to always be fair to others.
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Post by rational on Sept 6, 2014 10:16:50 GMT -5
Do you know the definition of prodigal? prodigal son Word Origin noun 1. a figure in a parable of Jesus (Luke 15:11–32); a wayward son who squanders his inheritance but returns home to find that his father forgives him.prodigal son in Culture Expand Prodigal Son definition A character in a parable Jesus told to illustrate how generous God is in forgiving sinners who repent. The Prodigal Son was a young man who asked his father for his inheritance and then left home for “a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.” As his money ran out, a famine occurred, and he went to work tending pigs, but even then he could not get enough to eat. He returned home, knowing that he had given up his right to be treated as his father's son, but hoping that his father would accept him as a hired servant on the farm. Seeing the Prodigal Son coming from a distance, the father rejoiced and ordered the fatted calf to be slaughtered for a feast to celebrate the son's return. The Prodigal Son's elder brother returned from the fields while the feast was going on and was angry. He complained that he had never been treated to such a feast, though he had remained and worked diligently for his father while the Prodigal Son was away. The father reassured him, saying that the elder son would still get his inheritance, but it was right to celebrate the return of the Prodigal Son: “For this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.”
My mistake. I thought the word 'prodigal' was a description of the spending habits of the son that left and was unrelated to whether he went back or not. In the case of the biblical story the father could be considered a prodigal father as well. prodigaladjective 1. spending money or resources freely and recklessly; wastefully extravagant. synonyms: wasteful, extravagant, spendthrift, profligate, improvident, imprudent antonyms: thrifty 2. having or giving something on a lavish scale. synonyms: generous, lavish, liberal, unstinting, unsparing; antonyms: mean
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 6, 2014 11:26:36 GMT -5
Jesus used all kinds of transportation (walking, boats, riding a donkey), ways (stop by the well talking to people, teaching people in the synagogues), places to meet and share the gospel with. If Jesus were here today! He would use laptops to make plans, cell phone contacting his disciples. Jesus would fly from place to place, riding in the car another form of spreading the gospel from one place to another. He would have some in the ministry like Judas to look after the group money bags, to buy food or whatever... You know this pointof saying that the money bag that Judas had was the group's bag is something that is NOT really made clear. Now what had been made clear was in Matt. 10 was they were NOT to have a script or purse....and there was never a release of that command Until after Jesus was resurrected and he gave them the second great commission and then they cc ould have one...so when Judas had one and it was only noted at the time Marybroke and poured the alabaster box of spikenard over Jesus, that it showed up...but this was after Judas had already been in conversation with the chief priests and how he could help them snag Jesus. And Judas bag contained 30 pieces of silver in it when he was at the last supper! No, wonder Jesus sent him out before he taught the Eucharist, eh? He told Judas to go speedily and do what he was to do....the other Apostles seemed to think that Jesus had okayed Judas to have amoney bag! But that wasn't said so...it was what Judas had done all by himself...that much was apparent. And also it was apparent that Judas never realized the benefit of those 30 pieces of silver because he returned them to the chief priests when he saw that they had condemned and innocent man! And when the chief priests told him that they didn't care about it that he was to go see to it himself, that's when he threw down that money and left it behind and went and killed himself! So the script or purse didn't come into the Apostles' lives until AFTER the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ and actually he told them if they didn't have enough money in their scrip they were to sell their coats, etHONKYTONK-HOEDOWN-WHOOPTYDOOil they could buy a sword! That was strange to me and I haven't completely figured that out other then the Apostles were to go out on a dangerous journey without Jesus there to rescue them and that their faith would be tested and that they might need something to defend their own lives while on the road from here to yon!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 6, 2014 11:32:16 GMT -5
Thank you for raising this issue, elizabethcoleman. ... ... But for the majority of workers today, faith in God for their daily provision, doesn’t seem to play much of a part. They are “guaranteed” food and lodging, and a standard of living far exceeding that of a servant. Have you considered places like Bangladesh, Bolivia and others?In 1900 workers were advised to invest in a sturdy pair of walking boots. In 1955, the advice was to purchase a quality wrist watch before going into the ministry. By 2010, it was a lap-top and a smart-phone. I will have to take your word for it. I assume you have inside info.A large part of the blame lies with us “friends”. We have, as a result of our own abundance, created this monster. We have exalted these ministers above their rightful position of servants, we have contributed to the excess of funds. Yes, this is true. But would it be appropriate for our ministers to live like "poor" servants? How would that work? When they come to stay, we give them beds less comfortable than ours and serve them meals more humble than we usually eat?Jesus saw that the widow’s two coins were much more valuable (both to the widow and to the church) than the abundance of the wealthy. If the Spirit truly leads the offerings then there would surely be more “widow’s coins” and less abundance of funds. That's possible, but are we saying the Spirit is NOT leading the offering? Do we know what God is preparing for us (think Joseph in Egypt)? What might be the needs of the future? Maybe someone will remember who it was that told us some times ago that the trust fund(s) that the workers had formed with their extra funds was in a foreign country. Someone mentioned Israel...the thought from the workers being that when all the world gathers against Jerusalem, then the 2x2s will have a foot into Jerusalem as a supporter of God within Jerusalem and that the friends and workers would move to Jerusalem and join in Jerusalme's side of that battle for God will be the victor of that battle as we read in Zech 14......when one thinks about storing up against the day of necessity perhaps one can at least try to understand what the workers were thinking about at least for a t the time, the reasons for those trust funds accumulating in an offshore account! I am not sure that this is really right, but again if we're to believe the bible then we can at least put a bit of understanding why some zealous worker(s) would figure this out and pay heed to the call for future needs!
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