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Post by emy on Sept 9, 2014 22:22:22 GMT -5
We are talking about poor homeless penniless workers who do this. Do you know of any homeless people who go to the Caribbean for alternative cancer treatment at the cost of about $2,500 a day? I know because a professing person was receiving the treatment at the same time the worker was. That's not even close to what you said:
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Post by Mary on Sept 9, 2014 22:51:05 GMT -5
We are talking about poor homeless penniless workers who do this. Do you know of any homeless people who go to the Caribbean for alternative cancer treatment at the cost of about $2,500 a day? I know because a professing person was receiving the treatment at the same time the worker was. That's not even close to what you said: It's very close to what I said. This is what I said. Yep, I know of a worker who went to the Caribbean's to have alterative cancer treatment. Cost several thousand dollars a day. Who can afford that - except a worker? Who can afford that - except a worker? was said tongue in cheek due to the fact that they are supposed to be penniless if you read the rest of the thread. .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2014 23:29:45 GMT -5
Yep, I know of a worker who went to the Caribbean's to have alterative cancer treatment. Cost several thousand dollars a day. Who can afford that - except a worker? and i say to that, "so what"
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Post by rational on Sept 10, 2014 0:30:56 GMT -5
We are talking about poor homeless penniless workers who do this. Do you know of any homeless people who go to the Caribbean for alternative cancer treatment at the cost of about $2,500 a day? I know because a professing person was receiving the treatment at the same time the worker was. There are many people who cannot afford to get treatment at $2,500 a day. But they do. However I am not funding their treatment. And I am not contributing to the F&W either. From your description it sounds like one of the friends went with the worker. Could it be that they paid? Some people are generous. I was under the impression that you were not supporting the F&W with contributions, Mary.
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Post by Mary on Sept 10, 2014 0:42:06 GMT -5
No the person did not go with the worker. The person was surprised to see the worker there receiving treatment at the same time they were. I certainly had family who were supporting the workers at that time. You could say it would have came out of my inheritance.
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Post by rational on Sept 10, 2014 10:35:15 GMT -5
No the person did not go with the worker. The person was surprised to see the worker there receiving treatment at the same time they were. I certainly had family who were supporting the workers at that time. You could say it would have came out of my inheritance. That clears things up. Thank you. Do you happen to know which clinic they went to? Was it like the John of God operation? It seems like you concern is not in regards to the ethical consideration but the financial implications. My parents also support the workers and the F&W. My view has always been that it is their money for them to use as they wish. I am not (yet!) supporting my parents but if I were I might feel differently about to whom they were donating. On the other hand, if I do give them money it would be far too much effort to try to find out what they did with it. It could be going straight to the F&W. Or my mom could be laundering money. I have noticed her bank notes always look freshly ironed.
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Post by Mary on Sept 10, 2014 16:14:47 GMT -5
The issue is not my money - it is that the workers who say they are poor homeless preachers who like Jesus have no where to lay their head (I heard that preached many times) and that is one of the principles on which the ministry stands, yet they have and as we have read on here, often expect the best. They do not go without, they are not poor and homeless. And we read a few posts back Nathan saying that they do have credit cards. I don't care what they do with their money, but I care about false representation.
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Post by rational on Sept 10, 2014 16:54:42 GMT -5
The issue is not my money - it is that the workers who say they are poor homeless preachers who like Jesus have no where to lay their head (I heard that preached many times) and that is one of the principles on which the ministry stands, yet they have and as we have read on here, often expect the best. They do not go without, they are not poor and homeless. And we read a few posts back Nathan saying that they do have credit cards. I don't care what they do with their money, but I care about false representation. If you have left the group I am wondering why this is a concern to you any more than a used car salesman overstating the value of his goods. Or is this a reform movement?
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Post by SharonArnold on Sept 10, 2014 17:29:57 GMT -5
Other churches have been criticized by workers for accepting money from their members & having a stipend or salary!
How many times over the years have I heard the this saying from a worker?
"I haven't been hired so I can't be fired"
If you haven't heard it perhaps it is changing.
I had never heard this saying (36 years as an innie - Western Canada) until someone else mentioned it here on the TMB (within the last couple of years). My response was that I HAD fired them. I fired their butts. By voting with my feet. It felt good. It still does.
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Post by SharonArnold on Sept 10, 2014 17:50:02 GMT -5
The issue is not my money - it is that the workers who say they are poor homeless preachers who like Jesus have no where to lay their head (I heard that preached many times) and that is one of the principles on which the ministry stands, yet they have and as we have read on here, often expect the best. They do not go without, they are not poor and homeless. And we read a few posts back Nathan saying that they do have credit cards. I don't care what they do with their money, but I care about false representation. If you have left the group I am wondering why this is a concern to you any more than a used car salesman overstating the value of his goods. Or is this a reform movement? Uuummmm... This is a system that affects every part of your life - social, emotional, spiritual (if you believe in that part of your existence). Probably physical too, if you can open your mind to the possibility of there being a mind-body connection of any sort. Comparing it to a "used car salesman overstating the value of his goods" really does not make any sense to me.
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tom
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Post by tom on Sept 10, 2014 18:21:37 GMT -5
We are talking about poor homeless penniless workers who do this. Do you know of any homeless people who go to the Caribbean for alternative cancer treatment at the cost of about $2,500 a day? I know because a professing person was receiving the treatment at the same time the worker was. Maybe they had a family member that paid for the treatment for them. Quite possible and fine by me!
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Post by rational on Sept 10, 2014 18:43:59 GMT -5
If you have left the group I am wondering why this is a concern to you any more than a used car salesman overstating the value of his goods. Or is this a reform movement? Uuummmm... This is a system that affects every part of your life - social, emotional, spiritual (if you believe in that part of your existence). Probably physical too, if you can open your mind to the possibility of there being a mind-body connection of any sort. But at this point Mary is no longer a part of that system. I think I remember a promise being made that it was the only way to eternal salvation. From what I understand from believers, this is an overstatement of the product being 'sold'.
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Post by Mary on Sept 11, 2014 3:45:51 GMT -5
We are talking about poor homeless penniless workers who do this. Do you know of any homeless people who go to the Caribbean for alternative cancer treatment at the cost of about $2,500 a day? I know because a professing person was receiving the treatment at the same time the worker was. Maybe they had a family member that paid for the treatment for them. Quite possible and fine by me! So do they believe God is in control of life and death or is it taking things into our own hands? They claim to go out in faith but when it comes to death where is their faith? Now I have opened a can of worms.
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Post by Mary on Sept 11, 2014 3:48:00 GMT -5
If you have left the group I am wondering why this is a concern to you any more than a used car salesman overstating the value of his goods. Or is this a reform movement? Uuummmm... This is a system that affects every part of your life - social, emotional, spiritual (if you believe in that part of your existence). Probably physical too, if you can open your mind to the possibility of there being a mind-body connection of any sort. Comparing it to a "used car salesman overstating the value of his goods" really does not make any sense to me. It is like a used car salesperson saying this is the only can that works. Buy anything else and it will break down but this car will not.
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Post by Persona non grata on Sept 11, 2014 4:03:13 GMT -5
From my experience with the group, I do not ever recall the friends being encouraged or exhorted to give to needy causes. They never even mentioned disasters such as typhoon, earthquakes, etc. and certainly never prayed for those situations. So I cannot imagine them giving funds towards them. Happy to be proven wrong on this! Neither do I ever recall being encouraged or exhorted by they workers to give to specific needy causes. Just as they never ask for or exhort us to donate funds to themselves. This is one of the very positive things about the ministry. All charitable offerings that I make are as a result of my own personal conviction and not as a result of any pressure from the church. To me hearing them preach that they are poor homeless preachers is to be a way of exhorting funds from people. Please be careful with your formatting when you're quoting others, Mary - you've wrongly attributed a quote to me in the above post. (My quote was actually the sentences: Neither do I ever recall being encouraged or exhorted by they workers to give to specific needy causes. Just as they never ask for or exhort us to donate funds to themselves. This is one of the very positive things about the ministry. All charitable offerings that I make are as a result of my own personal conviction and not as a result of any pressure from the church. )
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 4:45:26 GMT -5
Maybe they had a family member that paid for the treatment for them. Quite possible and fine by me! So do they believe God is in control of life and death or is it taking things into our own hands? They claim to go out in faith but when it comes to death where is their faith? Now I have opened a can of worms. I think that most believers, workers included, have the faith to believe that God is in control when it comes to matters relating to life and death, however we don't really see or read, these days, about the kinds of miracles that were performed, relating to life and death, that we read about in the Old and New Testaments, so in my humble opinion, I believe that it is quite in order for us to seek medical treatment when necessary, that would relieve pain and suffering and even prolong life. I believe that God gave mankind the wisdom to treat and even effect cures, and everyone, including workers, should try to take advantage of treatments available, if and when there is a source of financial help available from lawful and charitable sources.
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Post by Mary on Sept 11, 2014 5:11:53 GMT -5
I have redone the post with the correct author of the quotes which I incorrectly quoted above as being from persona non grata. Sorry to persona non grata for the quote wrongly attributed to him/her. I have deleted the incorrect post above and posted it here again correctly. From my experience with the group, I do not ever recall the friends being encouraged or exhorted to give to needy causes. They never even mentioned disasters such as typhoon, earthquakes, etc. and certainly never prayed for those situations. So I cannot imagine them giving funds towards them. Happy to be proven wrong on this! Neither do I ever recall being encouraged or exhorted by they workers to give to specific needy causes. Just as they never ask for or exhort us to donate funds to themselves. This is one of the very positive things about the ministry. All charitable offerings that I make are as a result of my own personal conviction and not as a result of any pressure from the church. To me hearing them preach that they are poor homeless preachers is to be a way of exhorting funds from people.
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Post by Persona non grata on Sept 11, 2014 5:20:16 GMT -5
I have redone the post with the correct author of the quotes which I incorrectly stated were from persona non grata. Sorry to persona non grata for the quote wrongly attributed to him/her. I will delete the incorrect post above. Neither do I ever recall being encouraged or exhorted by they workers to give to specific needy causes. Just as they never ask for or exhort us to donate funds to themselves. This is one of the very positive things about the ministry. All charitable offerings that I make are as a result of my own personal conviction and not as a result of any pressure from the church. To me hearing them preach that they are poor homeless preachers is to be a way of exhorting funds from people. Thank you, Mary. I'm a bit pedantic that way.
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Post by Mary on Sept 11, 2014 5:25:07 GMT -5
I have also changed my wording to have deleted it where your quote has it as I will delete it. You were too fast for me.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Sept 11, 2014 9:03:49 GMT -5
Maybe they had a family member that paid for the treatment for them. Quite possible and fine by me! So do they believe God is in control of life and death or is it taking things into our own hands? They claim to go out in faith but when it comes to death where is their faith? Now I have opened a can of worms. I've noticed all throughout my life that the 2x2 workers tend to get hypochondriac. Always "doctoring" for some ailment. Now I'm not saying that some of their complaints are viable.....however the lifestyle itself tends to drive people the direction they can get attention.....the women probably are more blatantly obvious, although I've seen some of the brother workers put the ritz on in regards to their health issues. And likely if they were to tell the whole story to their physician, he/she would likely have treated them with anti-depressants before involving expensive surgeries or treatments.
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Post by rational on Sept 11, 2014 11:13:51 GMT -5
It is like a used car salesperson saying this is the only can that works. Buy anything else and it will break down but this car will not. The question is why do people buy into this sort of sales pitch. Perhaps there is emotional clouding and the product presented seems to fit exactly into what the person wants - like an old vintage car that evokes memories from the halcyon days of one's youth and the fact that the backseat has no fabric and the engine burns 4 quarts of oil per mile are over looked! Sometimes it is difficult to step back and be objective regarding emotional decisions.
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Post by SharonArnold on Sept 11, 2014 17:27:43 GMT -5
It is like a used car salesperson saying this is the only can that works. Buy anything else and it will break down but this car will not. The question is why do people buy into this sort of sales pitch. Perhaps there is emotional clouding and the product presented seems to fit exactly into what the person wants - like an old vintage car that evokes memories from the halcyon days of one's youth and the fact that the backseat has no fabric and the engine burns 4 quarts of oil per mile are over looked! Sometimes it is difficult to step back and be objective regarding emotional decisions. Or, perhaps sometimes we are caught so caught up in what we think, or even what we think we should think - that we ignore the promptings of our feelings. For myself, I would trust a "feeling"/instinct over a thought any day - feelings tend to provide me a more direct path to the deepest, truest part of myself. That does not mean that when I have the "feelings" sorted out that they are not in complete alignment with rational thought. Even if it takes me a while to see that. But rational thought is more likely to be a liar to me than my instincts. It's different ways of processing input from our environment. You have to work with what is most meaningful to you and not try to fit into modalities that other people deem superior.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2014 21:17:51 GMT -5
Perhaps they've already been expressed during this thread, but here's my comments on money etc.
A lot of the f&w I've known, who came from other churches originally, have stated that one of the big things that particularly irked them, was requests for money... either outright or various subtle and not so subtle ways. How happy they were with the way the f&w do things.
Many potential church goers in my area who would like to go to church, don't, because of the passing of the collection plate at every meeting.
As someone who's worked in a small twn & surrounding area all my life, and not being a member of one of the traditional local churches, I seem to be sort of a neutral party in religion. So I've listened to many complaints about their churches. Most of it about money.
A number of home churches have started here over the years. Some of it, and sometimes a lot of it has to do with money. As a result, the model that seems to have evolved is one more like the f&w, where there is no outright request for money and no collection plate. Now it is a description of needs to the general populace, and behind closed door requests from likely donors. The amt donated by each member is no longer noted or of public knowledge, except in the case of exceptional donations, or those who declare theirs as tax deductions.
Having sat in on board mtgs of a couple of churches, preacher salary discussions are interesting. The salary amount is treated as though unimportant, even a distasteful, and uncomfortable, but necessary topic, but yet is necessarily very important. The fact is, you pay the price for the experience, charisma, responsibility, capability, and reliability you'd like to have. In general, the more you pay the better you get.
I pretty much like things the way they are in money matters with the f&w.
I suspect one big frustration by some ex's in particular, is that they can't? or it's too difficult? to sue them individually or in general. In some way or other if they could they would. Or they'd like to force them to do this or that, that they think aught to be done. I have no doubt they're scheming and searching for some opening somehow some way.
The biggest complainers I hear about money is from ex's, and frankly, they don't count as much. Not that they don't have some suggestions that are good sometimes. But in regard to complaints, it's hard to beat the idea of, if you don't like what you see or how things are done, don't donate. So, those who have donated with the way things are, must want things to continue the way they are. And by what I read here, that's been a richly successful way of doing things, arguing all the more for little or no change.
Ettu
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Post by emy on Sept 11, 2014 22:15:26 GMT -5
Well said, ettu.
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Post by faune on Dec 18, 2015 23:52:01 GMT -5
who sold the grounds? who recieved the payment for the grounds? Conjecture, an opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information. Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference
in other words the absence of truth The Head Worker is in the best position to explain the finances in their jurisdiction. This is what Evan Jones, then Head Worker of Victoria said in 1994 in his signed affidavit to Victorian police. "We are not a Registered Church or Body of any description. We are involved with the support of Third World Organisations. We currently have over 20 ministers in foreign fields preaching, assisting and doing evangelistic work. These evangelists are sent overseas with funds raised through the group.
Our organisation is financially well off. The funds are controlled by a Trust Fund with the Trustees being Arthur ROBINSON, Alan BIRD and Ian GUNST, who are elders of the Church. I am in charge of the Trustees and have the final say as to where the funds will be sent or spent. Once I make that decision, the Trustees withdraw the funds and give me a bank draft for the amount required in various areas as requested by me."
Most individual churches are not well off. Some churches clearly are. There are four key terms here "organisation", "financially well off", "I am in charge of the Trustees and have the final say" and "once I make the decision" Bible based churches work primarily along the lines of Acts 6 and separate the ministry and operational/organisational aspects of the church. The 2x2's do not. It's their business what they do but Evan Jones' statement (which is essentially the way it appears to operate in most jurisdictions) should not exactly fill a member of the group with comfort and certainty that the money given to the church will be handled appropriately as there are no checks and balances in the system. Additional checks and balances could be introduced without over engineering the system. But the real issues, which is at complete odds with what they preach re Matthew 10 etc is that Evan Jones is saying "we are financially well off and I control all the money. Okay it is not technically my money but I control the Trustees so it is money that is completely at my disposal to do with it what I want...." Could any honest person say that is Biblical? Ross ~ Such a financial arrangement with no checks and balances or accountability of funds and their disposition seems like an accident just looking for a place to happen, especially when these trust funds goes into the millions?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 19, 2015 3:58:04 GMT -5
Dear Overseers, Workers, Elders in the know. How much money did you collect from the friends in your state this year, including from deceased estates? How much money do you currently know about which is stockpiled in bank accounts, collected from the friends? What form of accountability is there for those holding the money? Is this information disclosed to anyone? If so, whom? What form of accountability is there for those spending the money? Is it reasonable for members of an organisation to be informed on the income, expenditure and activities of its leaders and the funds provided to them by members? Why do you slander churches for accepting money from their members when you do the same? Why do you slander churches for having their own purpose built facilities when you have your own purpose built convention grounds all over the world? Why do you take money from your members but fail to provide any form of accountability to your members on how this money is used? Why do you seek to hide every aspect of money management from your members rather than acting with transparency, integrity and accountability, declaring income and expenditure through financial statements to those who provide this money to the ministry? Are you willing to answer any of these questions? If not, why not? You have a seriously wrong spirit for thinking about these and even asking these questions. Don't you know that the workers are the Lords annointed and the annointed only answer to their Lord.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Dec 19, 2015 4:11:54 GMT -5
If you have left the group I am wondering why this is a concern to you any more than a used car salesman overstating the value of his goods. Or is this a reform movement? Uuummmm... This is a system that affects every part of your life - social, emotional, spiritual (if you believe in that part of your existence). Probably physical too, if you can open your mind to the possibility of there being a mind-body connection of any sort. Comparing it to a "used car salesman overstating the value of his goods" really does not make any sense to me. It's a complete slander of used car salesmen as most of them are reasonably honest.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Dec 19, 2015 4:45:36 GMT -5
You have a seriously wrong spirit for thinking about these and even asking these questions. Don't you know that the workers are the Lords annointed and the annointed only answer to their Lord. Apparently.
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