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Post by Ellen on Jun 5, 2006 0:58:15 GMT -5
I'm new here and new to meetings. I have been reading with interest the posts here and back aways too.
Initially it seemed to me like a place to practice poking fun at the F&Ws. But I see also some depth of meaning and wonder about that.
I have been considering joining the F&W and wonder what advice you will give me. From what I read I think it will include some warnings about dress code, about history of the church. BUt these are things that I've discussed with the preachers, and I don't really have any issue with it. There seems to have been an open-ness about the history, and the dress code seems voluntary, (well I do see many exceptions in current members).
But I'd appreciate any advice if its sensible. I realize though that with such an anonymous forum as this there could be some silly replies (witness other threads), but I can cope with that.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 5, 2006 1:10:31 GMT -5
BUt these are things that I've discussed with the preachers, and I don't really have any issue with it. There seems to have been an open-ness about the history, and the dress code seems voluntary, (well I do see many exceptions in current members). "Preachers"? Have you heard them called that? Or is that your term for them? How did you get in contact with them? I can't imagine that you had contact with someone of their church and they did not tell you "we call our ministers workers," but that is possible. Yes, the dress code is voluntary. Everything you do in the church is voluntary. You might run into someone who tells you that expectations of you are such and such. That too will be voluntary, if you fit in. I was told there are no rules, but the expectation of the Holy Spirit to convict the individual. One of the first workers I heard back in 1984 told me that William Irvine (main co-founder) was just a worker gone bad and that every worker and believer had heard from another worker all the way back to Jesus. Further, anyone telling something different is a liar and enemy of the truth. However, a few years later he changed his mind about the story of William Irvine. I don't know if he considers his source and himself a liar and enemy of the truth now.
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Post by Once a friendly on Jun 5, 2006 1:13:16 GMT -5
If you feel content with the meeting and content with your place there then that is fine. Godliness with contentment is great gain.
But do not be supressed when after you going certian things will start to be expected of you. Some will be fine with you wearing trousers outside the meetings (your a women i assumed), and then there will be those who will shun you and feel you have a bad spirit. And you will be expected to live up to certian standards in more then dress code. No long hair, no makeup, no TV. Some areas no radio. And in some areas you are not aloud to read certian books.
Many of the friends don't know about the history, so you probably will not be discussing this once you are within the group. You will probably be expected to hold to the dogma that this way has been passed down since the new testament church through an apostolic succession.
Also, I do not know if you were a christian of another church previously.
But you will hear little along the lines of jesus, his life and his death, and how through his grace we gained salvation. You will hear alot about works and what we can do in ourlives and in ourselves that will make our salvation more likely. You will be expected to live up to what the workers expect of you at all times. You will feel alot of pressure on yourselve to live up to certian standards and if these standards are not met then not only will you feel like a failure. You will constantly feel like your salvation is hanging in the balance and be in constant fear of doing something that will cause you to loose out. There are those in the meetings who may shun you, think less of you, and maybe even gossip about you.
And remember jesus is NOT God, jesus is the son of God. Just a man who was lead by the spirit of God fully. He was NOT God in the flesh.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 5, 2006 1:20:08 GMT -5
If you feel content with the meeting and content with your place there then that is fine. Godliness with contentment is great gain. But do not be supressed when after you going certian things will start to be expected of you. Some will be fine with you wearing trousers outside the meetings (your a women i assumed), and then there will be those who will shun you and feel you have a bad spirit. And you will be expected to live up to certian standards in more then dress code. No long hair, no makeup, no TV. Some areas no radio. And in some areas you are not aloud to read certian books. Many of the friends don't know about the history, so you probably will not be discussing this once you are within the group. You will probably be expected to hold to the dogma that this way has been passed down since the new testament church through an apostolic succession. Also, I do not know if you were a christian of another church previously. But you will hear little along the lines of jesus, his life and his death, and how through his grace we gained salvation. You will hear alot about works and what we can do in ourlives and in ourselves that will make our salvation more likely. You will be expected to live up to what the workers expect of you at all times. You will feel alot of pressure on yourselve to live up to certian standards and if these standards are not met then not only will you feel like a failure. You will constantly feel like your salvation is hanging in the balance and be in constant fear of doing something that will cause you to loose out. There are those in the meetings who may shun you, think less of you, and maybe even gossip about you. And remember jesus is NOT God, jesus is the son of God. Just a man who was lead by the spirit of God fully. He was NOT God in the flesh. I think you should have indicated "might" in all your absolutes.
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Post by Ellen on Jun 5, 2006 1:57:59 GMT -5
Thanks for advice so far, but I wonder if we have the same church?
Yes, some call the preachers (my word) workers. I'm not all that hung up on words and names.
Yes, I'm female, wear trousers, short hair, little makeup anyways.
I had a good discussion with the preachers about William Irvine and many others they mentioned as starting the fellowship, in Ireland (or was it Scotland) in early 1900s or so. My friend, who introduced me also spoke quote openly about this when I first asked her about this. No-one said anything about it going all the way back to Jesus day!
If you've heard nothing about Jesus in the meetings you attended thats sad. I've heard little else. Only about his saving grace, and his cleansing blood. Thats why I continued going, as this is so clearly preached, and quite eloquently too.
It all appears so contradictory - what I read here and what I hear in person. How can that be?
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Post by exer on Jun 5, 2006 1:59:10 GMT -5
I'm new here and new to meetings. I have been reading with interest the posts here and back aways too. Initially it seemed to me like a place to practice poking fun at the F&Ws. But I see also some depth of meaning and wonder about that. I have been considering joining the F&W and wonder what advice you will give me. From what I read I think it will include some warnings about dress code, about history of the church. BUt these are things that I've discussed with the preachers, and I don't really have any issue with it. There seems to have been an open-ness about the history, and the dress code seems voluntary, (well I do see many exceptions in current members). But I'd appreciate any advice if its sensible. I realize though that with such an anonymous forum as this there could be some silly replies (witness other threads), but I can cope with that. They will treat you well. They will be open and friendly. They will not turn you away. But so what. Look at the teachings Look into the beliefs Look hard at their doctrines. They uphold works and human effort in place of Grace and Jesus Christ. Their teachings are the house built on sand.
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Post by hear on Jun 5, 2006 2:01:33 GMT -5
It all appears so contradictory - what I read here and what I hear in person. How can that be? Because what they are saying is different then what you are hearing. A professing person and an ex member can listen to the same meeting and come away with very different results. Ask them about being the only way, about accepting other churches, and what were to happen if you don't profess. As to your pants and short hair, they will not say anything to push you away, but over time hints and such will be dropped in hopes you will line up and follow them by only wearing skirts (most of the time) and keeping your hair long.
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faith
Junior Member
Posts: 50
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Post by faith on Jun 5, 2006 2:25:27 GMT -5
When I was first going to gospel meetings I called the workers preachers too. After a few months of meetings and getting to know the friends I was told "we call our ministers workers". I was also told that there are no rules but the Spirit convicts us to stop doing/get rid of things that God is not pleased with.
I had never heard of William Irivne and was told that this was God's true church as it had continued since Jesus day and the ministry was the only true ministry in the world as it was set up by Jesus. Also you cannot be saved unless you hear the gospel through the workers.
When some of the friends began to find out about the history the elder worker here began to preach that to base our faith on the continuity of the ministry/way as we know it is weak and we only have to look at history to see that this is probably not possible, but that God raised up men to begin His 'way' again in our day and age.
This worker also preaches against TV - saying that having TV is letting the devil into your home. Having a radio is almost as bad.
The teaching seems to be quite different where you are ellen, as the workers here are not at all open about the history and fitting in with the dress code is seen as important.
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BC
Senior Member
Posts: 852
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Post by BC on Jun 5, 2006 2:32:22 GMT -5
Hi Ellen,
I am professing to serve God in this fellowship. What I would say to you is go to the meetings with an open ear and an open heart and you will hear the message of God and the saving Grace and mercy of our Lord Jesus. So often on forums like this you will get a huge cross section of attendees or ex attendees. Most will reiterate what they have heard or seen. We all as humans will only remember what we want to and when attending a meeting will hear what we want to hear and place our own interpretation on these things. Not that I'm saying that people don't hear what they say they do, but that each of us is an individual and each have different needs, outlooks and understandings. I know that we have been to a meeting and my wife has commented on something that was said and I have said "that is definitely not what I heard". Other times I have spoken to preachers about what they have said and found out that the message that they were trying to convey was quite different to what I got out of it. So as an individual go and listen and let your heart be open before God and he will Guide you into paths of righteousness.
[shadow=red,left,300]Regards BC[/shadow]
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Post by a believer on Jun 5, 2006 2:34:14 GMT -5
Ask them if they think that Christians in other churches are saved or do they think that they are the only true church. Ask them what they think about ministers in other churches.Ask them what they think about Billy Graham. They do not accept him as a fellow preacher but will probably give you a vague answer which will lead you to interpret it in any way you want.
When you see the conformity of group members to the 'rules' do you think they are voluntary or is appearance part of being accepted as a full member of this group? How many in the group have short hair? how many wear pants to meetings? How many of the homes have TV? So do you think the rules are voluntary or is pressure there to conform to be fully accpeted in the group? They tell outsiders that they are voluntary and hope that you will conform after you join. You may likely be told after you 'profess' that pants are men's clothing and not becoming for a woman of God, that a woman should have long hair. etc. The pressure will begin subtly. Did they know that you knew about the history before you asked them? or did they come straight out with it that it was started by a man, William Irvine 100 years ago or did they say that God raised up a man and give no name. Even their hymn books author sheets now omit the names of workers like Edward Cooney.
Do you think that salvation is found in a group (as this group very much adheres to) or do you think it is in Jesus. I grew up in this group and often heard Jesus as being our example. I never heard that he was God (manifest in the flesh) that he died in my place etc. I heard that he came to be our example, that this group, is the way of God. Do you wonder what they mean when they say this is the way of God, or call their group the Truth. Do you know what they mean when they say this? As an outsider you may not be aware of what they mean. To me, Jesus only is the way, not their group which is what they are referring to when they say the way of God, and call themselves/their group, the truth. To a Christan Jesus is the way and the truth, not a group.
Do they look like a Christain group or do they look klike an exclusive sect? Do they preach mainstream Christain teaching or do they emphaisis certain parts of the Bible over others. e.g. the workers ministry, meeting in the home etc.
Like someone else asked. are you already a Christian? If so dio you think there is something wrong that you have to profess again given that you have already accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior? Have you already been Baptised? People warn you only out of concern for you.
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Post by words on Jun 5, 2006 2:38:20 GMT -5
Do you wonder why the group uses words of their own and not words that are in the Bible. e.g. they talk about going to meeting. Is that in the Bible? The Bible talks about the church. The word professing rahter than becoming a Christian?
These code words are part of a sect and not part of Christianity.
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Post by Ellen on Jun 5, 2006 3:05:57 GMT -5
I'm sorry to have started such a storm here. Perhaps I should not have?
Anyways, to asnwer a few questions.
I was not a Christian, not baptised. I'm a learner, and learning from these meetings.
Did they know I knew about the history? I'm not sure what you meant by the question. I knew nothing. I asked the "workers" (preachers) and they told me a lot. I THEN read some more about it, which seemed no different.
Conformity or rules? I'm one of several women in the meeting who wears trousers occasionally, and who has shortish hair. (off the collar). Some have (I understand) been members for decades.
Hymns: I noticed that one worker always gives the names of the authors of the hymns when announcing which one to sing. (The other doesn't do this). Thats where I first heard the name Eddie Cooney. I don't know where this info is, as the hymn book doesn't state authors.
Other denominations preachers? I haven't discussed this at any length, but the name Billy Graham did come up actually. He was described as a "Godly man". Now I don't know anything about Billy Graham, so I can't really comment on him.
Code words I don't know about this,but it seems to me that any denomination is full of this. I don't mind. Christian, worker, preacher, friend, member, meetings, church. Whats in a name? Its the actions and doctrine that count, surely?
Well, I'll just keep listening, but I do wonder if maybe there are two branches of this church? Your descriptions are similar but not the same.
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Post by We care on Jun 5, 2006 7:14:07 GMT -5
Ellen, go slow. Attend meetings. Keep your eyes and ears open. Often people who do not know the scriptures will say-OH, they preach straight from the Bible. The workers do-but (most) do not use any tools to help-they don't know the Greek which helps us to understand the Bible. They (might) frown on concordances, study Bible as "man's ideas". Here-it is the King James version ONLY. Some will say that is for consistency-but it is form of isolation. By not using tools you get a skewed version. Remember the workers did not interpret the Bible-they are using man's work but discounting the other available helps.
One of the most telling things about this group, sect, cult what ever you want to call it since they don't take a name, (No offense intended) ask for a listing of their key beliefs. Most churches have a list, posting, brochure or something that says their key beliefs.
Ask them for the central, core beliefs. They don't have them. They don't do it. They hide behind this story of-we believe the whole Bible. We don't pick and choose. We are the new testament church. Thus, you can't see clearly what they believe-they are not upfront.
One worker believes Jesus is God. Most do not. A couple of workers believe you are saved by grace. Most do not. There is no unity.
Just because the 2 workers you are listening to tell you this it is not so 100 miles away with a different set of workers.
There is a large body of dissenters. There is a reason for this. Be careful. Don't join quickly. Attend meetings, take advantage of the friendliness to get to know people and then ask them the questions you asked the workers. Ask what the people believe. Ask the women why they have long hair, put up. Ask some of the more "always in a dress" women if they wear pants outside of meeting and why. There shouldn't be any problems with doing this. Be proactive, ask questions......don't be a victim-
Be warned. There is definite reason to be wary.
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 5, 2006 7:14:22 GMT -5
I'm sorry to have started such a storm here. Perhaps I should not have? Anyways, to asnwer a few questions. I was not a Christian, not baptised. I'm a learner, and learning from these meetings. Did they know I knew about the history? I'm not sure what you meant by the question. I knew nothing. I asked the "workers" (preachers) and they told me a lot. I THEN read some more about it, which seemed no different. Conformity or rules? I'm one of several women in the meeting who wears trousers occasionally, and who has shortish hair. (off the collar). Some have (I understand) been members for decades. Hymns: I noticed that one worker always gives the names of the authors of the hymns when announcing which one to sing. (The other doesn't do this). Thats where I first heard the name Eddie Cooney. I don't know where this info is, as the hymn book doesn't state authors. Other denominations preachers? I haven't discussed this at any length, but the name Billy Graham did come up actually. He was described as a "Godly man". Now I don't know anything about Billy Graham, so I can't really comment on him. Code words I don't know about this,but it seems to me that any denomination is full of this. I don't mind. Christian, worker, preacher, friend, member, meetings, church. Whats in a name? Its the actions and doctrine that count, surely? Well, I'll just keep listening, but I do wonder if maybe there are two branches of this church? Your descriptions are similar but not the same. Ellen, what is going on here with your questions is no storm. All is really quite calm. You read about the history? What and who was the source? This year I saw one of the workers' friends out in public in pants. This is the first time I have ever seen this. I have never seen any woman in the church with hair above her collar except when worn up. Ellen, would you tell us where you live? I've never heard of Billiy Graham called godly, but actually a wordly preacher who loves the big crowds and the big money.
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Post by spiderman on Jun 5, 2006 8:14:56 GMT -5
Ellen, I was in the fellowship for 30 years, and I will never again get mixed up with any fellowship that excludes the rest of the body of Christ. There are many exclusive Christian fellowships and in my opinion that one word (exclusivity) makes them dead wrong.
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Post by no issue on Jun 5, 2006 8:18:50 GMT -5
I'm new here and new to meetings. I have been reading with interest the posts here and back aways too. Initially it seemed to me like a place to practice poking fun at the F&Ws. But I see also some depth of meaning and wonder about that. I have been considering joining the F&W and wonder what advice you will give me. From what I read I think it will include some warnings about dress code, about history of the church. BUt these are things that I've discussed with the preachers, and I don't really have any issue with it. There seems to have been an open-ness about the history, and the dress code seems voluntary, (well I do see many exceptions in current members). But I'd appreciate any advice if its sensible. I realize though that with such an anonymous forum as this there could be some silly replies (witness other threads), but I can cope with that. Well anybody new to the group won't have an issue!
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Post by right on Jun 5, 2006 8:21:22 GMT -5
agreed spiderman it's easy to say the hell with everybody and then you do not have to have any involvement with others
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Post by Cherie to Ellen on Jun 5, 2006 10:30:51 GMT -5
Ellen: Could you please tell us: What part of the world do you live in?
What kind of meetings are you going to? Which of these two types of meetings: (1) a meeting where two or more workers conduct the meeting and are the main speakers. (2) a meeting where (most) all of those present participate, usually held (in the USA) on Sunday mornings and Wed night.
This will help to explain some things some of us are finding it hard to understand in your post.
Thanx, Cherie
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Post by sjg on Jun 5, 2006 11:45:32 GMT -5
Ellen,
How did you hear about "meeting"? Were you invited by a friend? Or did you see one advertised somewhere? And how is it that you found this message board? Forgive me IF I sound skeptical, but there are several things that simply are not adding up. For one thing, I seriously doubt ANY worker would call Billy Graham a "godly man." I was personally told that he was a "false teacher...one of the WORST!!" He is usually pointed out as "representing a false gospel" and doing it "to become a millionaire." They will make every attempt to "love you in." They may tolerate your short hair, slacks/jeans, and make-up for now, but once you become one of them, expectations WILL BE inforced. Tho I never joined, they tolerated this from me for 8 or 9 months and then I was confronted and asked IF I would be "willing"..... and I said "NO." Their response? They couldn't get out my front door fast enough! A word of caution: PLEASE do your homework before continuing your involvement with this group. It's easier to stay out than to get out.
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eurp
Senior Member
Posts: 290
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Post by eurp on Jun 5, 2006 13:54:50 GMT -5
Well golly - so many questions and so much advice. Here's answers to your questions.
I'm in England. I was introduced to meetings by a friend who used to go but left. The meetings I've attended had 2 preachers who conducted the meeting and were the only speakers. My friend also told me about this board. Maybe thinggs will change as you say I will be "loved in" (not sure what you mean by that - this certainly isn't a "loving in" church by my estimation!)
Thanks for your comments, but I feel that this board moves too fast for me, so many comments. Pity most of them negative. Think I should go back to being the mouse I usually am.
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Post by eh on Jun 5, 2006 14:14:46 GMT -5
Is Ellen = eurp?
What gives here.
another Lloyd?
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jun 5, 2006 14:19:09 GMT -5
No, not another Lloyd....another Prue(Bert).
I wondered if there was something not quite up front about Ellen, but then she (?) responded so quickly and nicely.
I wondered before if eurp was a shortening of Europe....that is if England claims to be in Europe.
Of course eurp could just be posting as if s/he was Ellen.
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Post by Han Chow Jingzhau on Jun 5, 2006 15:44:16 GMT -5
So Ellen was an imposter, eurp was an imposter, Nathan6 is an imposter,
is everyone an imposter? Is there any real people here. I doubt it.
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Post by nathan9 unplugged on Jun 5, 2006 16:18:44 GMT -5
I am not the poster Han Chow Jingzhau ! It is not one of my aliases.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2006 20:54:02 GMT -5
Doesn't matter what you ask them. When you are an outsider who they are trying to get to profess, the policy is to tell you whatever they think you want to hear. You will start to get some honesty after you have been in it a couple of years and the workers you professed through move on to another field. Of course you will have wasted a few previous years of your life, years that you will never get back, but that is a personal decision. After a few years, if you find you were fooled and lied to, I hope that you are not bitter. After all, you have had fair warning, unlike many others.
Cheers!
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Post by not logged in on Jun 6, 2006 0:43:33 GMT -5
Could eurp be prue backwards?
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lizzy
Senior Member
Posts: 530
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Post by lizzy on Jun 6, 2006 1:09:01 GMT -5
Ellen, Your salvation lies with Jesus. Pray to God in Jesus name to show you the way. If you are interested, keep going to the meetings and listening. This board is mostly people who have decided they don't want to be a part of the meetings anymore. This is your choice, look at all the contentment you have found so far. Wherever there are people, there will be gripes. Jesus is the way and I too hear Jesus and grace preached.at meeting. We don't just sit back and sail into heaven. We have a part to do to. Jesus paid the price that we could then choose to serve him, not sit back on grace alone, no more than works alone will save.
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Post by Eurp Ellen on Jun 6, 2006 1:50:36 GMT -5
Thanks for the mixed advice. I'm back to my mousehole, and won't venture here again.
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