IQ
Senior Member
Posts: 942
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Post by IQ on Jul 2, 2006 10:47:25 GMT -5
Yes, I attack 2x2ism. It needs to be dissected and opened to truth and honesty. You apparently prefer it remain hid in the dark. What is "typical"? That we expect that claims be substantiated? I agree. Such an expectation is very typical, and we certainly won't alter it. You openly expression your opinion toward the 2x2s, yet you remain hidden in your identity, why?
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Post by nutcase on Jul 2, 2006 10:50:39 GMT -5
In this case, it doesnt, ilylo and you are two nutcases in the same shell!! Welcome to the nutcase club Syd. You'll fit right in.
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Post by Guest on Jul 2, 2006 11:26:55 GMT -5
Ellen, all this must be rather confusing but I think you only have to be aware that dependending on where you are, not just within the world, but within a country, the application of rules and pressure will vary and in fact I do agree with your comment that sometimes it is hard to recognise that we are talking about the same group because of these variances. Although you are talking about the 2x2's, with the variety there is among Christian groups you could just as well be talking about Christianity in general. So in that regard the 2x2's represent Christianity very well. It may be "... hard to recognize that we are talking about the same group..." because of the great difference between how each of is percieve and react to situations and individuals. This is because there are no written and agreed doctrines such as nearly all other churches have, and it is very much left to the individual workers interpretation. If you are lucky you get an easy going worker, if not, then life can be very miserable as you confuse their pressures with your own conscience. Denominational doctrinal documents do not prevent disagreement or variety; either between it's writers, or within the laity, or between churches. They codify denominationalism. I was told that once I had heard and recognised "the Truth" then if I rejected it I was hell bound for sure. From that, I deduced I would have been better off if I had never heard it at all! The truth can condemn people. If they don't want to accept it, they no longer have the excuse that they haven't been told.
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Post by catalpa on Jul 2, 2006 11:54:55 GMT -5
Secondly, I have a question for those posting on here. What religion, if any are you? Because it seems to me that you spend a lot of time tearing apart my religion, but I don't do that to you. It doesn't bother me what religion you are, or what you believe, so why do you care what I believe. I just don't understand the fixation with my church. You warn people to be careful, and the if you "join" you will regret it etc.....well, I what do you care? What is the big deal? I don't believe in the buddist, hindu, catholic, scientology religions etc, but I don't feel the need to spout forth to the whole world. quote] The reason I care and stand up for Godliness and correctness of the scripture is because I have left the errant belief system of the 2 x 2's -this board is for this particular belief system. It would not be according to the rules to discuss other religions. See the rules posted at the top and bottom of the page. You are free to explore other sites that discuss other belief systems.
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Post by it on Jul 2, 2006 16:11:33 GMT -5
Yes, I attack 2x2ism. It needs to be dissected and opened to truth and honesty. You apparently prefer it remain hid in the dark. What is "typical"? That we expect that claims be substantiated? I agree. Such an expectation is very typical, and we certainly won't alter it. You openly expression your opinion toward the 2x2s, yet you remain hidden in your identity, why? it seems that he may have a family member still in the fellowship, like wife etc. and it appears he don't want people to know who he is
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Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Jul 2, 2006 17:14:02 GMT -5
You openly expression your opinion toward the 2x2s, yet you remain hidden in your identity, why? And the same can be said and asked of you. Why is your identity hidden?
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IQ
Senior Member
Posts: 942
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Post by IQ on Jul 2, 2006 23:09:29 GMT -5
You openly expression your opinion toward the 2x2s, yet you remain hidden in your identity, why? And the same can be said and asked of you. Why is your identity hidden? Is it hidden? Not really, most know who I am even tho I go by a nickname here. Your logic is flawed, sorry... P.S. Need some help? Just read some of the postings following mine, and you will find someone who has the ultimate need to use my real first name.
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IQ
Senior Member
Posts: 942
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Post by IQ on Jul 2, 2006 23:11:47 GMT -5
You openly expression your opinion toward the 2x2s, yet you remain hidden in your identity, why? it seems that he may have a family member still in the fellowship, like wife etc. and it appears he don't want people to know who he is I agree, he is keeping one foot in the door, so when the need arises, he can go back to "2x2ism" as he calls it!!! (Wont have to explain it to anyone, since we dont know who he is)
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Post by Guest Natalie on Jul 13, 2006 23:24:21 GMT -5
to catapla: You wrote: " Secondly, I have a question for those posting on here. What religion, if any are you? Because it seems to me that you spend a lot of time tearing apart my religion, but I don't do that to you. It doesn't bother me what religion you are, or what you believe, so why do you care what I believe. I just don't understand the fixation with my church. You warn people to be careful, and the if you "join" you will regret it etc.....well, I what do you care? What is the big deal? I don't believe in the buddist, hindu, catholic, scientology religions etc, but I don't feel the need to spout forth to the whole world. quote] The reason I care and stand up for Godliness and correctness of the scripture is because I have left the errant belief system of the 2 x 2's -this board is for this particular belief system. It would not be according to the rules to discuss other religions. See the rules posted at the top and bottom of the page. You are free to explore other sites that discuss other belief systems. I don't want to discuss religions that are not my own. That is my point. I don't care. People are free to believe what they want to believe. My point was, why can't you do the same?? Why spend so much time and energy posting on here? To me, it makes no sense. You took what I said completely wrong.
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Post by ilylo on Jul 14, 2006 0:12:55 GMT -5
Natalie,
Are you opposed to the open exchange of thoughts and ideas (also known as dialogue)?
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Post by guest natalie on Jul 14, 2006 8:55:46 GMT -5
No, I don't believe that I said I was. I merely don't see the point in running something down, and putting so much effort into it, if you don't have a vested interest in it. I mean, why do a house up if you aren't going to buy it? It just seems that so much of the stuff on here is negative. And often incorrect statements about what we do and don't do, and what we believe and don't believe.
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Post by studylearning on Jul 14, 2006 9:55:19 GMT -5
No, I don't believe that I said I was. I merely don't see the point in running something down, and putting so much effort into it, if you don't have a vested interest in it. I mean, why do a house up if you aren't going to buy it? It just seems that so much of the stuff on here is negative. And often incorrect statements about what we do and don't do, and what we believe and don't believe. Natalie I was B&R and am 57 years old. My mom was one of the first to profess in the USA have profess for over 70 years. I was just recently told by workers that I can't believe that others could find salvation in churches outside of the F&W fellowship. You state that you just want to follow Godliness and correctness and imply that you believe in this and only this. Is it Godly and correct to deny the works of the Holy Spirit? To deny is not scriptural. So then when I am posting, I am stating how an error in doctine has effected my belief in the F&W. Do you consider pointing out incorrect doctrine as running down? Just for what it is worth, please go to the back of you KJV Bible and in the dictionary section, look up the word Blasphemy. Then you come back and tell me if you still believe rejection of the possiblity others being saved in other churches is correct. 2 cents P.S. Perhaps this post should be directed to others in that I came into the discussion late. So then to others:
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Post by ilylo on Jul 14, 2006 11:53:40 GMT -5
No, I don't believe that I said I was. I merely don't see the point in running something down, and putting so much effort into it, if you don't have a vested interest in it. I mean, why do a house up if you aren't going to buy it? It just seems that so much of the stuff on here is negative. And often incorrect statements about what we do and don't do, and what we believe and don't believe. Regarding "the open exchange of thoughts and ideas (also known as dialogue)."I did not ask if you said you were opposed to it. I asked if you were opposed to it. If we want to discuss 2x2ism, we'll discuss 2x2ism. Let the dialogue flow.
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Post by For Natalie on Jul 14, 2006 21:44:07 GMT -5
Dear Natalie, Nine years ago, I was told by the overseer, "if you continue going to meetings the elder will ask you to leave". What brought this on after faithfully professing for 19 years? Adultery? Theft? Murder? Nope. I simply told the elder I no longer believed Christians outside "the Truth" were lost. I ask you, what is wrong with not judging "outsiders"? Why do I post here? Because I still have family and friends in this messed-up group and I care deeply about them. Really
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Post by senkyoshi on Jul 15, 2006 7:16:35 GMT -5
No! Stop! Don't jump!
This is just a silly opening to a very serious reply. I left the Mormon Church and joined the 2x2s when I thought they were "the one true way".
Rather than repeating the many valid reasons that other people on this board are surely covering well, here is one of my major reasons for leaving: no evidence of the Holy Ghost, and having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof. Think long and hard on this one.
When you ask about miracles, spiritual gifts, healings, and other evidences of the Holy Ghost that were so ABUNDANT AND EVIDENT in the New Testament, the workers will tell you that those things are not necessary any more. They will find several ways to beat around the bush, but the answer is always the same. I say they deny those things because THEY AND THEIR WAY HAVE NO LIFE.
I also found that answers to prayer ALWAYS are circumstantial.
Now, I always found the various promises of the Holy Ghost to be empty words, and that eventually led me out of Christianity as well.
Glad to discuss at senkyoshi20@hotmail.com
Senkyoshi Ex-Mormon Ex-2x2 Ex-Christian
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harry
New Member
Posts: 18
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Post by harry on Jul 15, 2006 8:09:01 GMT -5
Senkyoshi said "I also found that answers to prayer ALWAYS are circumstantial."
This is an undeniable fact.
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Post by Sylvestra on Jul 15, 2006 8:59:18 GMT -5
Thanks for advice so far, but I wonder if we have the same church? Yes, some call the preachers (my word) workers. I'm not all that hung up on words and names. Yes, I'm female, wear trousers, short hair, little makeup anyways. I had a good discussion with the preachers about William Irvine and many others they mentioned as starting the fellowship, in Ireland (or was it Scotland) in early 1900s or so. My friend, who introduced me also spoke quote openly about this when I first asked her about this. No-one said anything about it going all the way back to Jesus day! If you've heard nothing about Jesus in the meetings you attended thats sad. I've heard little else. Only about his saving grace, and his cleansing blood. Thats why I continued going, as this is so clearly preached, and quite eloquently too. It all appears so contradictory - what I read here and what I hear in person. How can that be? Dear Ellen, I am an "ex" who goes to a lot of the fellowship meetings to take my 82-year-old dad. I hear quite differently than I used to (as others have mentioned - you will hear differently than I do!) Jesus IS discussed and his saving grace through is death IS discussed. Both what I've noticed is that the same person expressing such thankfulness for the GIFT of Salvation through Jesus, finishes their testimony by saying they want to live in such a way as not to "lose out" or "miss the mark" or "lose their salvation". This is where their belief goes haywire! It would probably be an excellent idea for you to attend other churches (and study with them) while you are also going to the meetings. Get really grounded in the gospel of Salvation before making a home in any particular church and don't EVER believe something just because it sounds good but rather prove all things according to the bible. Best regards, Edy
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Post by Sylvestra on Jul 15, 2006 9:18:07 GMT -5
To SJG - You can't make such huge generalisations as that! I know many workers that agree with me. I even have family that are in the work, and they have the same point of view as me. I'm sure there are many workers that would disagree with me, but in the end, who cares?? It's what God believes that matters. I know many friends that agree with me also. And, for your information, I put that very question to the workers in our field when they came to stay with my husband and I earlier this year, and was pleased that they agreed. However, I do know of another worker that would not agree. But how is this different from any other church? Every church has issues like this, over what people believe. Some people believe that if you are a Christian, and belong to my church, that you are not a child of God's, and are merely in a cult, who apparently worship workers. So, what about them? Are they wrong about us? I know what I think on that matter, but what about you. You don't have to attend any church to be a child of God's. It is not just my church that had discrepancies in beliefs, but other's as well. Please don't think that this is a personal attack on you, in any way. I just have issues with what you are saying, as you obviously do with me too. Dear Natalie, With true due respect toward you, I do not believe what you say that MANY of the workers (including one/some in your family) and friends believe Christians in other churches are saved. This idea that the F & W are "the way", "the kingdom", etc. is one main leg of the three-legged platform upon which they are built!!! These three things are a must to believe - the preacher without a home, the church in the home, and all other churches are not "the way", but we are! If these many workers and friends believed that the rest of the body of Christ was in other churches you can believe also that they would be spending time in FELLOWSHIP (as in Sunday AM services and bible studies) IN and WITH those people in their churches. However, I have heard a number of people "admit" that there MIGHT be a very few people in other churches that are saved. That is very, very different than accepting the rest of the body of Christ!! Best regards, Edy
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Post by Sylvestra on Jul 15, 2006 9:21:46 GMT -5
guest natalie, From reply #56, regarding your claim that there are workers that believe that a person who is not "professing" is still a child of God... Who are those workers? Don't ask for specfic names if you aren't specifically identifiable yourself.. Well, then teenager, I would ask the same question!! I am identifiable and always post under my own name. You can even contact me via this Board! If you want to send snail mail you can have my address!!! Now, who are the workers that believe this? Best regards, Edy Reese Novation3@aol.com
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Post by selah on Jul 16, 2006 10:55:43 GMT -5
Hi Senkyoshi,
Do you embrace a specific spiritual belief now? Just interested.
Blessings, Linda
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sm
Junior Member
Posts: 84
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Post by sm on Jul 16, 2006 13:55:55 GMT -5
I'm new here and new to meetings. I have been reading with interest the posts here and back aways too. Initially it seemed to me like a place to practice poking fun at the F&Ws. But I see also some depth of meaning and wonder about that. I have been considering joining the F&W and wonder what advice you will give me. From what I read I think it will include some warnings about dress code, about history of the church. BUt these are things that I've discussed with the preachers, and I don't really have any issue with it. There seems to have been an open-ness about the history, and the dress code seems voluntary, (well I do see many exceptions in current members). But I'd appreciate any advice if its sensible. I realize though that with such an anonymous forum as this there could be some silly replies (witness other threads), but I can cope with that. My advice... RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If you choose not to take that advice, then I seriously suggest you sit down with some workers and ask the following questions 1) When was the truth founded? (ask 3 different workers, see if you get the same answer) 2) Can workers get married if they want too? ( the answer is YES, but chances are, they'll beat around the bush) 3) You believe that the KJV is the most accurate interpretation of the original bible scriptures, but the keyword is *Interpretation*. Considering the scriptures are 2000++ years old,is it not possible that along the way they have been either intentionally, or unintentionally misinterpretated along the way in other attempts to get people to believe *their* church is right? Have you yourself,or anyone from this church ever actually compared the original greek and hebrew scriptures to today's KJV? 4) The KJV uses the word *Hell* in place of *hades and Sheol* in many places in the bible, can you tell me what Hades and Sheol mean? ( The answer is both actually are used in reference too *the grave* not some burning pit of fire*) you can just follow the little numeric, and alphabetical references in the center column of your bible to verify that. 5) Does the truth have a name? (see if any actually admit to it having a name registered with any worldly governments) Basically, make up a list of inconsistencies in their teaching..and in their actions that go against what they teach, and question them. Whatever you do, do not believe for a moment you have *the wrong spirit* because you are asking. *Ask and it shall be given, seek and ye shall find* That is afterall... all you are doing, asking...... SM
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Post by my understanding on Jul 16, 2006 21:38:35 GMT -5
It has always been my understanding that there "might" be persons in other churches who (because of their honest hearts) would profess in the 2x2 way if they ever were exposed to the workers & their teachings.
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Post by the credit on Jul 16, 2006 21:47:03 GMT -5
We can give Christianity the credit for the full-fledged development and spreading of the concept of eternal hell.
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Post by senkyoshi on Jul 18, 2006 4:39:01 GMT -5
To Linda from Senkyoshi
No, I don't have a specific, "nameable" belief set. The closest label that seems to fit me would be deism.
I still attend 2x2 meetings with my family out of a sense of honor. I do not feel the need to find another belief set. Leaving Christianity was the most liberating feeling I have ever felt. And for other reader who might jump to a wrong conclusion, it was not about my own convenience or lack of spirituality. It was about many things, chief among them being that the abundant evidence of "spirit life" (i.e. the Holy Ghost) so evident in the New Testament never proved itself real to me.
Glad to continue discussion . . .
Senkyoshi Ex-Mormon Ex-2x2 Ex-Christian
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Post by mtgs on Jul 18, 2006 11:00:27 GMT -5
Senkyoshi, do you continue to attend all mtgs with your family, ie: sunday twice and wednesday bible study as well as 4 day conv and special mtgs? if you are definately not christian do you not find it hard to listen to?
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Post by Sylvestra on Jul 18, 2006 11:18:21 GMT -5
It has always been my understanding that there "might" be persons in other churches who (because of their honest hearts) would profess in the 2x2 way if they ever were exposed to the workers & their teachings. This is totally different than accepting Christians in others churches as "brethren" and part of the body of Christ!!! Totally different! Best regards, Edy
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Post by Sylvestra on Jul 18, 2006 11:20:42 GMT -5
We can give Christianity the credit for the full-fledged development and spreading of the concept of eternal hell. I believe this is correct also. What do you believe instead...how does most of the Christian world believe this, and how can their belief be corrected? Best regards, Edy
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Post by Rob O on Jul 18, 2006 22:35:42 GMT -5
This assumes the belief is in need of correction. (Sits back)...
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