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Post by xna on Mar 21, 2024 15:00:06 GMT -5
The followers of those three cults ended in untimely deaths. whereas; According to Christian traditions..... Simon Peter: crucified upside down . Andrew: crucified in Greece on an X-shaped cross James: executed by Herod Agrippa John: may have faced martyrdom. Philip: martyred by being crucified upside down. Bartholomew: flayed alive or crucified. Thomas: martyred by being stabbed with a spear. Matthew: martyred in Ethiopia or Persia. James, son of Alphaeus: stoned or beaten to death. Simon the Zealot: may have been martyred. Yes, they are TRUE apostles of Christ! đź‘Ť The three religious leaders that died you posted, đź‘Žwere NOT true apostles of Christ Read Matthew 7:13-28. Jesus showed his followers how to recognize between his true servants and false servants. wrong thread to fully explore this subject. Are you too willing to die for your belief in Christ? Notice any similarities? |
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Post by nathan2 on Mar 21, 2024 15:41:24 GMT -5
Yes, they are TRUE apostles of Christ! 👍 The three religious leaders that died you posted, 👎were NOT true apostles of Christ Read Matthew 7:13-28. Jesus showed his followers how to recognize between his true servants and false servants. wrong thread to fully explore this subject. Are you too willing to die for your belief in Christ? Notice any similarities? Yes, the True apostles and followers of Jesus always have been persecuted and killed for more than 1500 years. Our days and time might come to that, killed for Jesus’ name, Truth and Way on the earth. In the book of Rev. the souls who were killed for Jesus name asked God when is He going to revenge their deaths? God told them to rest and wait until many of their brethren shall be killed in the same manners. |
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Post by Annan on Mar 21, 2024 16:10:39 GMT -5
wrong thread to fully explore this subject. Are you too willing to die for your belief in Christ? Notice any similarities? Yes, the True apostles and followers of Jesus always have been persecuted and killed for more than 1500 years. Our days and time might come to that, killed for Jesus’ name, Truth and Way on the earth. In the book of Rev. the souls who were killed for Jesus name asked God when is He going to revenge their deaths? God told them to rest and wait until many of their brethren shall be killed in the same manners. You always did love playing the martyr, Natie.  And if we know them by their fruits, who doesn't know that you are not a worker but an antagonistic pretender? |
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 21, 2024 16:50:09 GMT -5
FWIW -- Judy is not a martyr. Martyrs are killed by outsiders.
Judy resigned in protest because she believed her association would offend her personal integrity.
People do that when they feel morally compromised by what is expected of them in the position they find themselves.
I've done that twice in my lifetime. It's the honorable thing to do when your integrity is not respected.
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Mar 21, 2024 17:58:22 GMT -5
Yes, the True apostles and followers of Jesus always have been persecuted and killed for more than 1500 years. Our days and time might come to that, killed for Jesus’ name, Truth and Way on the earth. In the book of Rev. the souls who were killed for Jesus name asked God when is He going to revenge their deaths? God told them to rest and wait until many of their brethren shall be killed in the same manners. You always did love playing the martyr, Natie. And if we know them by their fruits, who doesn't know that you are not a worker but an antagonistic pretender? That what the Pharisees said to Jesus a man Pretend to be equal with God, but he was telling them the truth. He is the Second of the MOST powerful Supreme being of the Trinity. Jesus was NOT a pretender and I am NOT either. You sound like the Pharisees, who disliked to hear the Truth about themselves. |
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Post by themaninthemirror on Mar 22, 2024 12:46:43 GMT -5
I have been told that Judy is not a liberal, but in fact quite conservative, and is reacting purely to the issue of CSA and SA handling within the ministry. Remember the saying, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely", and that is what some are up against, and quite simply cannot just try and change things from within any longer. Everyone has their limits. Guest8 is right, and some in the church that I am in contact with over there, are saying the same things. Particularly regarding Schulz. Are you going to address my point? Where did 17% come from. I have seen a list of Alberta for example - 324 workers since 1920s. That means according to you - 60 of them are abusers or can you clarify? We have people saying that there have been 200-300,000 members since the 1920s, you are saying 40,000 - 60,000 of them are abusers? |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 22, 2024 14:10:00 GMT -5
Yes, the True apostles and followers of Jesus always have been persecuted and killed for more than 1500 years. Our days and time might come to that, killed for Jesus’ name, Truth and Way on the earth. In the book of Rev. the souls who were killed for Jesus name asked God when is He going to revenge their deaths? God told them to rest and wait until many of their brethren shall be killed in the same manners. You always did love playing the martyr, Natie. And if we know them by their fruits, who doesn't know that you are not a worker but an antagonistic pretender? Nathan will never be killed for being a christian. |
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Post by Pragmatic on Mar 22, 2024 16:15:56 GMT -5
I have been told that Judy is not a liberal, but in fact quite conservative, and is reacting purely to the issue of CSA and SA handling within the ministry. Remember the saying, "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely", and that is what some are up against, and quite simply cannot just try and change things from within any longer. Everyone has their limits. Guest8 is right, and some in the church that I am in contact with over there, are saying the same things. Particularly regarding Schulz. Are you going to address my point? Where did 17% come from. I have seen a list of Alberta for example - 324 workers since 1920s. That means according to you - 60 of them are abusers or can you clarify? We have people saying that there have been 200-300,000 members since the 1920s, you are saying 40,000 - 60,000 of them are abusers? No, we have no idea of the past. All we know is that there are allegations against roughly 17% of the 500+ workers in the US and Canada. (Figures from Jon McClernon) We don’t know exactly the numbers of friends in the US, but there are roughly 700+ allegations against workers, elders and friends in the US. |
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Post by snow on Mar 22, 2024 19:42:49 GMT -5
No doubt God has all the power, skill and desire to do the healing. So get out of the way. Stop being a hindrance. Allow God to do His work in His way, in His time. Stop putting the cart in front of the horse by demanding forgiveness by the victim without helping the victim. Respect the process. And may I add, please know your place as an uninformed onlooker. You know absolutely nothing of the trauma, suffering and damage done by a perp to a csa victim. If you ever get to be involved with a victim of csa, especially when you're the person responsible for the victim, you try to your approach. See how it fails. See how it actually pushes the victim deeper and deeper into their misery. Let me repeat it to you again! I have been there as a CSA victim myself. So, I know what I am talking about. I am NOT a by stander or an onlooker as you say. Are you a CSA victim yourself or a by stander/ a looker? I tried my method and it works wonders for all these years. I am FREE! As a 🦅 from the ordeal experiences. Nathan I have said this before, I am very sorry that you are a survivor of CSA. But I see all kinds of things that you say that makes me think that you still suffer from the trauma of it.  |
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Post by snow on Mar 22, 2024 19:57:12 GMT -5
I read " David Koresh was a Christian" I read "Jim Jones Peoples Temple was a Christian church" I read " Marshall Applewhite's belief system was heavily influenced by science fiction, New Age philosophy, and Christianity" But NOT the like Christians like we read in the gospels and in the book of Acts Like Jesus warned us about in Matthew 7:13-20. By their 🍎 you shall KNOW them. Those 3 men didn’t act like Jesus. The same things with the current overseers Adm. they must change their CSA Policy toward the victims. Neither do the overseers in the 2x2 ministry. They don't act like Jesus either. Do you think for a minute that Jesus would stand for moving pedophiles/abusers around, tell parents to keep quiet or you're excommunicated? Your leaders are no different from those three. Merlin Afleck at convention speaking on Saturday night and testing the meeting afterwards literally used that line about leaving convention without professing if you die you are lost for eternity. |
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Post by nathan2 on Mar 22, 2024 22:33:01 GMT -5
But NOT the like Christians like we read in the gospels and in the book of Acts Like Jesus warned us about in Matthew 7:13-20. By their 🍎 you shall KNOW them. Those 3 men didn’t act like Jesus. The same things with the current overseers Adm. they must change their CSA Policy toward the victims. Neither do the overseers in the 2x2 ministry. They don't act like Jesus either. Do you think for a minute that Jesus would stand for moving pedophiles/abusers around, tell parents to keep quiet or you're excommunicated? Your leaders are no different from those three. Merlin Afleck at convention speaking on Saturday night and testing the meeting afterwards literally used that line about leaving convention without professing if you die you are lost for eternity. The current overseers Adm. has been going down a slippery road for a long time on how badly they have handle CSA situation. They can come clean by eliminating CSA abusers from the ministry, and the fellowship from now on. This way the friends will continue to have confidence and TRUST in the ministry again. |
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Post by Dan on Mar 23, 2024 13:57:20 GMT -5
FWIW -- Judy is not a martyr. Martyrs are killed by outsiders. Judy resigned in protest because she believed her association would offend her personal integrity. People do that when they feel morally compromised by what is expected of them in the position they find themselves. I've done that twice in my lifetime. It's the honorable thing to do when your integrity is not respected.
Correct, Judy is no martyr, she bowed-out for person reasons. When a person see's no hope, they raise a white flag and surrender. She's not a coward, but just unwilling to fight a battle that she's convinced can't be won.
Many Workers have lost faith in the leadership, are heavy hearted, defensive, feel trapped, and worried about the future. Its been disruptive and explosive, but many have put their heads in the sand and are waiting for things to settle down. I think SA will eventually be addressed by installing corrective measures that will reestablish security, but many have already tipped-out the door in discuss.
Imo, the entire ministry needs to be reassessed, it has got to be transformed into a legitimate organization that answers to everyone. The strong ones will fight that fight and invoke changes, the weak will fall by the wayside. Right now, there's no accountability, no over-site, no monetary disclosure, its essentially an under the table unorganized organization.
Workers are a lot of work. Like children, they are reliant on help for everything, food, bed, cloths, transportation, medical, etc. I think it would actually be cheaper to give them enough money to take care of themselves. Setting up mobile homes would certainly cut cost and secure safety, and it wouldn't cost anymore than building these conventions. If it ain't broke don't fix it, but its broke.
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Post by xna on Mar 23, 2024 14:27:17 GMT -5
FWIW -- Judy is not a martyr. Martyrs are killed by outsiders. Judy resigned in protest because she believed her association would offend her personal integrity. People do that when they feel morally compromised by what is expected of them in the position they find themselves. I've done that twice in my lifetime. It's the honorable thing to do when your integrity is not respected.
Correct, Judy is no martyr, she bowed-out for person reasons. When a person see's no hope, they raise a white flag and surrender. She's not a coward, but just unwilling to fight a battle that she's convinced can't be won.
Many Workers have lost faith in the leadership, are heavy hearted, defensive, feel trapped, and worried about the future. Its been disruptive and explosive, but many have put their heads in the sand and are waiting for things to settle down. I think SA will eventually be addressed by installing corrective measures that will reestablish security, but many have already tipped-out the door in discuss.
Imo, the entire ministry needs to be reassessed, it has got to be transformed into a legitimate organization that answers to everyone. The strong ones will fight that fight and invoke changes, the weak will fall by the wayside. Right now, there's no accountability, no over-site, no monetary disclosure, its essentially an under the table unorganized organization.
Workers are a lot of work. Like children, they are reliant on help for everything, food, bed, cloths, transportation, medical, etc. I think it would actually be cheaper to give them enough money to take of themselves. Setting up mobile homes would certainly cut cost and secure safety, and it wouldn't cost anymore than building these conventions. If it ain't broke don't fix it, but its broke.
If the 2x2 formed an earthly organization accountable to men, would they still be guided only by the Holy Spirit? If the 2x2 had mobile homes, would they be homeless? If they took a salary, would this verse still apply? "having food and raiment let us be therewith content?" .... How much change, yet it remains the one and only true way? How much change, makes 2x2 just like the false preachers? I think your changes would improve the 2x2, but it reminds me of the story; - George Washington's axe:  It's a tale often used to illustrate the concept of continuity and change over time. The story goes something like this:
Legend has it that George Washington, the first President of the United States and a revered figure in American history, owned an axe that he used for various tasks around his estate at Mount Vernon. Over the years, the axe's handle broke, as wooden tool handles are prone to do with wear and tear.
Washington, being a practical man, replaced the broken handle with a new one. However, as time passed, the axe's head also became worn and damaged. So, he replaced the head with a new one, maintaining the usefulness of the tool.
Now, the question arises: Is this still George Washington's axe?
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Mar 23, 2024 14:48:12 GMT -5
Correct, Judy is no martyr, she bowed-out for person reasons. When a person see's no hope, they raise a white flag and surrender. She's not a coward, but just unwilling to fight a battle that she's convinced can't be won.Â
Many Workers have lost faith in the leadership, are heavy hearted, defensive, feel trapped, and worried about the future. It’s been disruptive and explosive, but many have put their heads in the sand and are waiting for things to settle down. I think SA will eventually be addressed by installing corrective measures that will reestablish security, but many have already tipped-out the door in discuss.
Imo, the entire ministry needs to be reassessed, it has got to be transformed into a legitimate organization that answers to everyone. The strong ones will fight that fight and invoke changes, the weak will fall by the wayside. Right now, there's no accountability, no over-site, no monetary disclosure, its essentially an under the table unorganized organization.Â
Workers are a lot of work. Like children, they are reliant on help for everything, food, bed, cloths, transportation, medical, etc. I think it would actually be cheaper to give them enough money to take of themselves. Setting up mobile homes would certainly cut cost and secure safety, and it wouldn't cost anymore than building these conventions. If it ain't broke don't fix it, but its broke.Â
If the 2x2 formed an earthly organization accountable to men, would they still be guided by the Holy Spirit? If the 2x2 had mobile homes, would they be homeless? How much change makes it the only true one way? How much change makes it like the false preachers? Such major changes reminds me of the story of -  George Washington's axe:  It's a tale often used to illustrate the concept of continuity and change over time. The story goes something like this:
Legend has it that George Washington, the first President of the United States and a revered figure in American history, owned an axe that he used for various tasks around his estate at Mount Vernon. Over the years, the axe's handle broke, as wooden tool handles are prone to do with wear and tear.
Washington, being a practical man, replaced the broken handle with a new one. However, as time passed, the axe's head also became worn and damaged. So, he replaced the head with a new one, maintaining the usefulness of the tool.
Now, the question arises: Is this still George Washington's axe?Â
Very good posts and questionsđź‘Ť. Keep the way God the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit had set it up! The way it was because it has working very good for almost 2000 years. The current overseers MUST have ZERO tolerance CSA and SA within the ministry and fellowship! Report to the FBI and authority ASAP. The Godhead had the 2x2 ministry established before the foundation of the world, Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant homeless, moving constantly for a very reason. This way the good news can reach the world in a fast pace in short amount of time with the help of the friends ministry. Keep it the same way God, Christ and the Holy Spirit had set it up in the 1st century. Matthew 10 and Luke 10 go in faith and trust God to care for them and they shall gain 100 folds, homes, families, and so on. READ Matthew 19:1-30. Jesus Christ the same as Yesterday, Today and Forever! |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 23, 2024 14:48:51 GMT -5
Correct, Judy is no martyr, she bowed-out for person reasons. When a person see's no hope, they raise a white flag and surrender. She's not a coward, but just unwilling to fight a battle that she's convinced can't be won.
Many Workers have lost faith in the leadership, are heavy hearted, defensive, feel trapped, and worried about the future. Its been disruptive and explosive, but many have put their heads in the sand and are waiting for things to settle down. I think SA will eventually be addressed by installing corrective measures that will reestablish security, but many have already tipped-out the door in discuss.
Imo, the entire ministry needs to be reassessed, it has got to be transformed into a legitimate organization that answers to everyone. The strong ones will fight that fight and invoke changes, the weak will fall by the wayside. Right now, there's no accountability, no over-site, no monetary disclosure, its essentially an under the table unorganized organization.
Workers are a lot of work. Like children, they are reliant on help for everything, food, bed, cloths, transportation, medical, etc. I think it would actually be cheaper to give them enough money to take of themselves. Setting up mobile homes would certainly cut cost and secure safety, and it wouldn't cost anymore than building these conventions. If it ain't broke don't fix it, but its broke.
If the 2x2 formed an earthly organization accountable to men, would they still be guided only by the Holy Spirit? If the 2x2 had mobile homes, would they be homeless? If they took a salary would they still be "having food and raiment let us be therewith content?" .... How much change and it still remains the one and only true way? How much change makes them just like the false preachers? Such major changes reminds me of the story of - George Washington's axe: It's a tale often used to illustrate the concept of continuity and change over time. The story goes something like this:
Legend has it that George Washington, the first President of the United States and a revered figure in American history, owned an axe that he used for various tasks around his estate at Mount Vernon. Over the years, the axe's handle broke, as wooden tool handles are prone to do with wear and tear.
Washington, being a practical man, replaced the broken handle with a new one. However, as time passed, the axe's head also became worn and damaged. So, he replaced the head with a new one, maintaining the usefulness of the tool.
Now, the question arises: Is this still George Washington's axe?
It may even be his grandathers axe or even the axe that has been used by Adam. |
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Post by xna on Mar 23, 2024 15:04:33 GMT -5
It may even be his grandathers axe or even the axe that has been used by Adam. True. If the 2x2 make all the changes to fix the system as suggested, they might as well just shut it down and let the people pick a church which best fits them. However reading what others posted, I suspect there is too much big money from bequeathed estates, trust funds, unused cash flow, and who knows what else around to kill the cash cow. My guess is there will be a lot of hand ringing & hand waving but in the end nothing will materially change. Fewer people means there is less people to share with, and fewer who complain. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 23, 2024 15:22:49 GMT -5
It may even be his grandathers axe or even the axe that has been used by Adam. True. If the 2x2 make all the changes to fix the system as suggested, they might as well just shut it down and let the people pick a church which best fits them. However reading what others posted, I suspect there is too much big money from bequeathed estates, trust funds, unused cash flow, and who knows what else around to kill the cash cow. My guess is there will be a lot of hand ringing & hand waving but in the end nothing will materially change. Fewer people means there is less people to share with, and fewer who complain. Quite right. I believe Judy Scheller left the work with dignity, unlike those who lusted after boys, girls, other peoples partners or their fellow workers or who ran off to marry the woman they had been seeing covertly. |
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Mar 23, 2024 17:00:39 GMT -5
True. If the 2x2 make all the changes to fix the system as suggested, they might as well just shut it down and let the people pick a church which best fits them. However reading what others posted, I suspect there is too much big money from bequeathed estates, trust funds, unused cash flow, and who knows what else around to kill the cash cow. My guess is there will be a lot of hand ringing & hand waving but in the end nothing will materially change. Fewer people means there is less people to share with, and fewer who complain. Quite right. I believe Judy Scheller left the work with dignity, unlike those who lusted after boys, girls, other peoples partners or their fellow workers or who ran off to marry the woman they had been seeing covertly. 🧌👹🧌🥱👎 |
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Post by nathan2 on Mar 23, 2024 17:53:12 GMT -5
Let me repeat it to you again! I have been there as a CSA victim myself. So, I know what I am talking about. I am NOT a by stander or an onlooker as you say. Are you a CSA victim yourself or a by stander/ a looker? I tried my method and it works wonders for all these years. I am FREE! As a 🦅 from the ordeal experiences. Nathan I have said this before, I am very sorry that you are a survivor of CSA. But I see all kinds of things that you say that makes me think that you still suffer from the trauma of it. Nah, I am over it. I have moved on with my life. Life is Good with the help and inner peace from God. 👍👌 |
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Post by Dan on Mar 24, 2024 0:42:52 GMT -5
Correct, Judy is no martyr, she bowed-out for person reasons. When a person see's no hope, they raise a white flag and surrender. She's not a coward, but just unwilling to fight a battle that she's convinced can't be won.
Many Workers have lost faith in the leadership, are heavy hearted, defensive, feel trapped, and worried about the future. Its been disruptive and explosive, but many have put their heads in the sand and are waiting for things to settle down. I think SA will eventually be addressed by installing corrective measures that will reestablish security, but many have already tipped-out the door in discuss.
Imo, the entire ministry needs to be reassessed, it has got to be transformed into a legitimate organization that answers to everyone. The strong ones will fight that fight and invoke changes, the weak will fall by the wayside. Right now, there's no accountability, no over-site, no monetary disclosure, its essentially an under the table unorganized organization.
Workers are a lot of work. Like children, they are reliant on help for everything, food, bed, cloths, transportation, medical, etc. I think it would actually be cheaper to give them enough money to take of themselves. Setting up mobile homes would certainly cut cost and secure safety, and it wouldn't cost anymore than building these conventions. If it ain't broke don't fix it, but its broke.
If the 2x2 formed an earthly organization accountable to men, would they still be guided only by the Holy Spirit? If the 2x2 had mobile homes, would they be homeless? If they took a salary, would this verse still apply? "having food and raiment let us be therewith content?" .... How much change, yet it remains the one and only true way? How much change, makes 2x2 just like the false preachers? I think your changes would improve the 2x2, but it reminds me of the story; - George Washington's axe: It's a tale often used to illustrate the concept of continuity and change over time. The story goes something like this:
Legend has it that George Washington, the first President of the United States and a revered figure in American history, owned an axe that he used for various tasks around his estate at Mount Vernon. Over the years, the axe's handle broke, as wooden tool handles are prone to do with wear and tear.
Washington, being a practical man, replaced the broken handle with a new one. However, as time passed, the axe's head also became worn and damaged. So, he replaced the head with a new one, maintaining the usefulness of the tool.
Now, the question arises: Is this still George Washington's axe?
I wasn't advocating for an 'earthly' organization, but just one that conformed to common sense accountability. Following spiritual convictions need not conflict or be defined by societal norms. The public should not dictate the affairs of any church (first amendment). Jesus was not unorganized, he systematically organized a ministry, nothing was hidden from the public, in fact it was all written down, making him publicly accountable. Even Pontius Pilate found no fault with him.
Jesus traveled well over 3000 miles on foot during his ministry. Being an itinerant preacher, they slept outside most of the time. That's not practical today, in fact it might be illegal as one cannot just set up camp anywhere. Winnebago type of RV's would be more practical, mobile homes or trailers less costly. All 12 disciples didn't stay with 'friends', they often stayed at Peters home in Capernaum (Mark 2:1). Adjustments must be made, a person just can't live like they did 2000 years ago.
Workers don't earn cash, but they cost a fortune. Cars, international travel, food, lodging, medical expenses, clothing, laundry, phones, etc. Add up what's spent (donated) to support and sustain each Worker and you'd likely get an average +$20k annual figure. That's just having their needs met as that verse you quoted suggest.
So no fundamental change, just practical adjustments more suitable to modern necessities & conveniences. Giving people lots of money is a form of undisclosed income, cost and expenses should not be hidden from the congregation. Nothing needs to change in regards to preachers going out in pairs with minimal supplies and maintenance. 1 Timothy 5:17-18 & 1 Corinthians 9:14 esv suggest its permissible to be paid something, this would not eradicate being nondenominational or the "freely you have received, freely give" command, but just address an obvious need.
I'm of the opinion that Jesus sent his apostles out in the only way it would work back then. They couldn't settle in one place and build a church without being killed. They had to secretly meet in homes, they had to travel to verbally spread the gospel because it wasn't published yet. Even then, they were persecuted. Today, nearly everyone is familiar with the gospel, its been published worldwide, movies and telecommunications make it available everywhere. No need to attend a gospel mtg to learn what's common knowledge, that's why Workers have few newcomers. These days people attend church for comradery with like-minded people, affirmation, encouragement, inspiration, etc.
Finding places for Workers to stay without moving in and dwelling with parishioners would solve problems. Building mother-in-law cabins in back yards or converting a garage might be a reasonable separation and provide privacy. Visiting and dinners would remain, but Workers would be less work, they could buy and fix their own meals, do their own laundry, etc. Even Jesus cooked (John 21:9-10), rarely do Workers follow that example! Paul was also bi-vocational, working outside the ministry to help finance his journeys. Providing Workers funds to make them more independent and less a burden would benefit everyone. Just some of my ideas that will probably never come to fruition. Its a matter of sharpening the axe, not replacing it.
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Post by xna on Mar 24, 2024 3:54:35 GMT -5
Interesting reorganization ideas [mention]mackin75 [/mention] .
You put a lot of thought into this. The 2x2 would be transformed by this new model. Lots of things on the chopping block. It might be interesting to start a new thread on the reorganized of the 2x2. It would need a new name; instead of “go-preachers” how about “stay-preachers”?
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Post by ForeverFree on Mar 24, 2024 12:23:45 GMT -5
It may even be his grandathers axe or even the axe that has been used by Adam. True. If the 2x2 make all the changes to fix the system as suggested, they might as well just shut it down and let the people pick a church which best fits them. However reading what others posted, I suspect there is too much big money from bequeathed estates, trust funds, unused cash flow, and who knows what else around to kill the cash cow. My guess is there will be a lot of hand ringing & hand waving but in the end nothing will materially change. Fewer people means there is less people to share with, and fewer who complain. I agree. It's all political. The overseers are like the party leaders, the other senior workers are the caucus and young workers are the back benchers, and the friends are the constituents. (Based on the Westminster model of government) You have two or more parties, with the governing party calling the shots. There is the governing party and the opposition parties with opposing views, and you have the voters that will take sides. Voters express their views by commitment of loyalty or they choose not to express their views based on apathy or discontent with the parties. Money flows freely from supporters of the parties and is used to maintain the continuance of party power, including all necessary living and legal expenses. There may be much discussion and suggestions of change by either side, sometimes with much stress and divisions. If there is change and the governing party steps back, they still have a say based on representing the views of their supporters. So nothing will ever really change without the will of the majority of the people. |
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Post by snow on Mar 24, 2024 14:50:42 GMT -5
Neither do the overseers in the 2x2 ministry. They don't act like Jesus either. Do you think for a minute that Jesus would stand for moving pedophiles/abusers around, tell parents to keep quiet or you're excommunicated? Your leaders are no different from those three. Merlin Afleck at convention speaking on Saturday night and testing the meeting afterwards literally used that line about leaving convention without professing if you die you are lost for eternity. The current overseers Adm. has been going down a slippery road for a long time on how badly they have handle CSA situation. They can come clean by eliminating CSA abusers from the ministry, and the fellowship from now on. This way the friends will continue to have confidence and TRUST in the ministry again. The trouble is a good number of the overseers that you think should be cleaning up the ministry also should be in jail for what they've done. So how can the head honchos in the ministry clean it up without ousting themselves at the same time? That will never happen. They are too used to power to give it up willingly. |
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Mar 24, 2024 15:24:17 GMT -5
The current overseers Adm. has been going down a slippery road for a long time on how badly they have handle CSA situation. They can come clean by eliminating CSA abusers from the ministry, and the fellowship from now on. This way the friends will continue to have confidence and TRUST in the ministry again. The trouble is a good number of the overseers that you think should be cleaning up the ministry also should be in jail for what they've done. So how can the head honchos in the ministry clean it up without ousting themselves at the same time? That will never happen. They are too used to power to give it up willingly. I agree some of the guilty overseers harboring CSA in the ministry must go to prison to be as examples to rest of overseers NOT to take CSA lightly anymore. No more excuses, we didn’t know how serious and the long term damage to body, soul and minds the victims must deal it every day for the rest of their lives. The FBI must get involved and sent a few guilty of crimes/CSA overseers to prison, to heal and to ease the victims pains and sufferings. |
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Post by xna on Mar 24, 2024 18:00:53 GMT -5
I agree some of the guilty overseers harboring CSA in the ministry must go to prison to be as examples to rest of overseers NOT to take CSA lightly anymore. No more excuses, we didn’t know how serious and the long term damage to body, soul and minds the victims must deal it every day for the rest of their lives. The FBI must get involved and sent a few guilty of crimes/CSA overseers to prison, to heal and to ease the victims pains and sufferings. not a few that are guilty. Do the crime - do the time. Equal justice. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Mar 24, 2024 18:52:04 GMT -5
You always did love playing the martyr, Natie. And if we know them by their fruits, who doesn't know that you are not a worker but an antagonistic pretender? That what the Pharisees said to Jesus a man Pretend to be equal with God, but he was telling them the truth. He is the Second of the MOST powerful Supreme being of the Trinity. Jesus was NOT a pretender and I am NOT either. You sound like the Pharisees, who disliked to hear the Truth about themselves.  |
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Post by BobWilliston on Mar 24, 2024 19:19:09 GMT -5
It may even be his grandathers axe or even the axe that has been used by Adam. True. If the 2x2 make all the changes to fix the system as suggested, they might as well just shut it down and let the people pick a church which best fits them. However reading what others posted, I suspect there is too much big money from bequeathed estates, trust funds, unused cash flow, and who knows what else around to kill the cash cow. My guess is there will be a lot of hand ringing & hand waving but in the end nothing will materially change. Fewer people means there is less people to share with, and fewer who complain. Willis Propp once opined that they could afford to LOSE a certain number of followers. |
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Post by themaninthemirror on Mar 25, 2024 1:25:41 GMT -5
Are you going to address my point? Where did 17% come from. I have seen a list of Alberta for example - 324 workers since 1920s. That means according to you - 60 of them are abusers or can you clarify? We have people saying that there have been 200-300,000 members since the 1920s, you are saying 40,000 - 60,000 of them are abusers? No, we have no idea of the past. All we know is that there are allegations against roughly 17% of the 500+ workers in the US and Canada. (Figures from Jon McClernon) We don’t know exactly the numbers of friends in the US, but there are roughly 700+ allegations against workers, elders and friends in the US. This doesn’t make sense. There are 500 ish workers in the US and Canada right now - are you saying 100 of these have allegations? Over the duration of this analysis (1950s to 2024) there have been at least 2000 possibly way more, workers. I saw a list for Alberta that had 324 workers from 1920 to 2023, so I think it could be closer to 3000 workers and probably at least 120,000 to 140,000 friends (maybe way more). I understand there is a huge problem but presenting inaccurate numbers as facts it’s not helping anyone. |
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