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Post by fixit on Jan 8, 2024 17:06:11 GMT -5
I professed the summer I was 8, turning 9 that fall, at Portage convention to Hymn 62, (I think, at that time): "Lord I desire to come now to thee". In New Zealand it would be extremely unusual for a child under 12 to stand up in a tested meeting and if one did it would not be considered "professing". Jesus was 12 when he was "about his father's business". My mother professed at convention but testing of conventions has not happened for as long as I can remember and I'm around your age I think SharonArnold. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 8, 2024 17:15:21 GMT -5
The idea of hell, decades hence (only if I was a very bad person) paled in comparison to the trauma that I felt wondering on days when I came home on the school bus if my very fun, creative mother was no longer there (again), and in her place, my very British, buttoned-down, proper paternal grandmother. Most people have the same religion as their parents. Odds are very high that you would have professed because of this tendency. I on the other hand was a complete outsider who showed up to a gospel meeting. To break me away from my families religion required a lot more pressure. I would say the fear of hell was the main motivator for me. That decision caused a rift between me and my parents. Knowing this the workers preached on Matthew 10:36 "And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." That verse reassured me that I had made the right choice, and had to give up my family to be saved and not go to hell. It was all working out according to gods plan. Or so I was told, and so I then believed. Absolutely. I was totally enculturated into 2X2ism. I would have been as earnest a Catholic, Baptist, Buddhist, Sufi, Hindu, Jain, etc... had those been my birth circumstances. My life choices up until my mid-20's were very much predicated on fitting in to my family culture... and I do think my family culture was a much stronger influence than the 2X2 culture. I can separate the two in my mind now, back then I couldn't. It had to be much easier for you to leave 2X2ism, given your family was not part of it. |
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Post by xna on Jan 8, 2024 17:48:31 GMT -5
It had to be much easier for you to leave 2X2ism, given your family was not part of it. I placed my salvation above all else. My choice to profess broke all bonds with my families religion and with them. After I left the 2x2 those family bonds were never restored. So I don't think there was any effect from my family in my decision to leave the two by two. After I left I never went to a church again, other than for funerals and weddings. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 8, 2024 17:50:36 GMT -5
I was totally enculturated into 2X2ism. Most of us were, and there's a big problem right there. Workers rise up the ranks according to their loyalty to 2x2ism. You only have to look at the tributes to Dean Bruer to see proof of that: professing.proboards.com/thread/31859/bruer-extent-deception-public-tributes?page=1&scrollTo=1041582Elders are appointed according to their loyalty to 2x2ism. That's why such a high percentage of CSA abusers are, or were, elders or workers. Isaiah 1:12 When you come to appear before me, who asked this from your hand? Trample my courts no more! 13 Bringing offerings is futile; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and Sabbath and calling of convocation— I cannot endure solemn assemblies with iniquity. 14 Your new moons and your appointed festivals my soul hates; they have become a burden to me; I am weary of bearing them. 15 When you stretch out your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood. 16 Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean; remove your evil deeds from before my eyes; cease to do evil; 17 learn to do good;
seek justice;
rescue the oppressed;
defend the orphan;
plead for the widow. |
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Post by snow on Jan 8, 2024 18:26:09 GMT -5
This is a subject that doesn't get talked about much on here. This video really resonated with me because my parents were even more strict than a lot of the friends. The way the friends and workers treated me when I quit professing at 12 years old. Me being belittled by the workers when I asked questions. Being forced to attend meetings until I left home the night I wrote my final exam really was not an easy time for me. I had a year of real loneliness when I quit because I wasn't allowed friends from school and when I quit taking part in meetings I was viewed by many of kids parents as a 'bad influence' and that limited my access to some of the kids that had been my friend. I was told how ungrateful I was. After all my parents had given me everything when they adopted me and this is how I rewarded them. Things like that. I had one woman tell me I was the reason my mother got cancer. Because I was so hard to raise. Most of my relatives did not profess so I was quite upset that they were going to hell, because that's what was taught to me. Things like that told to a child leaves lasting trauma for a long time and I am still struggling with feeling like I have worth. Worthy of being loved etc. , your experience and story as that young girl tugs at the heart strings. I know you are in a caring community here on TMB, and from those who retain Christian faith I just want to wrap you in arms of love and extend something of the love that Jesus taught and lived for every little child who suffered injustice at the hands of man and his twisted ideas. Thank you Admin. I do have a great community here and I am thankful for that. Alan sings about God being in his heart. The love each of us shows others everyday is so important. Some believe it's God and some believe that it's us caring and showing love and empathy. I see God as a comfort to many, because they believe. But if you don't believe then God is just another religious entity. Our world has many religions and many ideas of who God is. If I was to choose a God it would be one that inspires love and compassion. I actually think that most religions started out with that thought in mind. Love is the uniting bond that flows through the original reason we started religions. Somewhere along the way men took over and decided the message was about fear and rules that make no sense. For me, love is what matters. Treating people with respect. If there is a God then I hope they understand that is all I can give. |
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Post by snow on Jan 8, 2024 18:29:35 GMT -5
Most of my relatives did not profess so I was quite upset that they were going to hell, because that's what was taught to me. Things like that told to a child leaves lasting trauma for a long time and I am still struggling with feeling like I have worth. Worthy of being loved etc. Growing up with professing parents, us kids never got any dose of "hell". So it's only reading what was your experience snow that I begin to see that this was maybe widespread and part of meeting culture in some areas. Entirely inappropriate for kids, any age, but must have been incredibly scary and traumatic for children of a very young age. Even now (quite a lot older!) I don't like to think of any concept of "hell". Probably (from my Christian perspective) it's the choice of living with God our creator, or (as so many do in this life anyway) choosing to live separate. But that's not the theme of this thread, rather the inappropriateness of preaching "hell" to young children - be it within the family setting or preachers from a platform. I agree with you. I watched Jesus Camp and I cried. To see those small children crying and praying to God to save them from hell broke my heart. My birth family is very fundamentalist and I cringe when I hear them talking to their children about hell. I don't understand it. If they think their God is love then focus on that with children. |
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Post by snow on Jan 8, 2024 18:33:49 GMT -5
The verse from Proverbs that you quoted is a classic bit of self serving nonsense. The same tactic is still used today by the religious. We see it daily on here from them. I suspect it is the only way they can justify their head in the sand ignorance. They denigrate wisdom and instruction because of their lack of basic understanding of science and puff themselves up with the knowledge of talking animals and virgin births. If you took going to hell (aka fear) out of religion, it would be much less effective. Fear is one of the strongest emotions. Everyone responds to fear. Fear changes behavior very quickly. That's why they use fear in boot camp to quickly control behavior. I agree. Hell was brought into Christianity for the very real reason it worked. The RCC ran with it. |
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Post by snow on Jan 8, 2024 18:44:12 GMT -5
That seems very strange, as in the USA the fear of god, and fear of hell was a big part of the motivation to profess, and to continue professing. ... In my first decade in 2X2ism (0-10yo), hell preaching was commonplace, but it got steadily less over the next 2 decades until I left in 1996. I think it depends on the individual personality of a kid of how negatively it affects them. For myself, I had the concept of hell very early in life. One day, when I would have been around 5 years old I started very vigorously drawing a picture. My next oldest brother (by 2 yrs) asked me what I was drawing, and I said "Hell". He told me that I should very careful, because I could end up there. That gave me pause, enough to make me instantly stop drawing. I had never really thought that I would personally go there before. After all, I was part of God's one true way on earth and he was the God who was not willing any should perish, and also his yoke easy and his burden light. (I had absorbed those concepts too.) Shortly after this, my mom became very ill, and almost died. She was in hospital for a couple of months, and I did not see her during that entire time, because kids under 14 yo were not permitted to visit. (I was perfectly aware of how close she had come to dying, because I had very big ears, and seldom missed an adult conversation anywhere in my vicinity.) This was far more traumatic to me than anything to do with the 2X2ism in my life. As a consequence, when she returned home, I became somewhat insecurely attached to her. I would insist that she would be the only one to turn my light out at night. If I woke up in the middle of the night, I would tiptoe into my parents bedroom, and stand and watch her breathing in and out. Reassured, I would tiptoe back to my bedroom. I was okay at school, because there was lots of activity and things to engage my interest, except for the long and boring school assemblies. Then, I would start thinking of my mom and I would start shrugging my shoulder, to wipe the tears away so that no one would see. After a little while, my mom sat me down and read me those verses in Matthew 10:29-31 "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows." She asked me if I could imagine someone knowing me so well, that He even knew the number of hairs on my head. (We had a little game of trying to count the hairs on my head, using a mirror.) We had sparrows on our farm, and she asked me if I thought I could trust that I was more valuable than a sparrow. Intellectually, I instantly got her point. Emotionally, it took me a little longer. It taught me that there was a place of quiet confidence in me that I could summon whenever I needed it, regardless of what was happening around me. This probably also helped me keep the concept of hell in perspective. I can sure see how that would have given you an insecure attachment to your mom. I'm so glad that she was able to comfort you in that way. I never worried about hell for myself until I quit professing at 12. Because I had it drilled into my head that if you didn't profess you would go to hell, it was something that upset me for my non-professing relatives. But when I quit I was positive that's where I was going. It took me a few years to let go of that early conditioning. Today I am so thankful that I have absolutely no thought about hell. I don't know why, but I am so much at peace with that. It's just not a possibility for me. I feel so bad for those who continue to struggle with fear of hell because they are no longer professing. It was such a pervasive early learning for us that I can understand it. Maybe because I quit very young and have lived 55 years without that indoctrination? I don't know, but I am thankful. |
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Post by snow on Jan 8, 2024 18:47:01 GMT -5
In my first decade in 2X2ism (0-10yo), hell preaching was commonplace, but it got steadily less over the next 2 decades until I left in 1996.
I think it depends on the individual personality of a kid of how negatively it affects them. For myself, I had the concept of hell very early in life. One day, when I would have been around 5 years old I started very vigorously drawing a picture. My next oldest brother (by 2 yrs) asked me what I was drawing, and I said "Hell". He told me that I should very careful, because I could end up there. That gave me pause, enough to make me instantly stop drawing. I had never really thought that I would personally go there before. After all, I was part of God's one true way on earth and he was the God who was not willing any should perish, and also his yoke easy and his burden light. (I had absorbed those concepts too.)
Shortly after this, my mom became very ill, and almost died. She was in hospital for a couple of months, and I did not see her during that entire time, because kids under 14 yo were not permitted to visit. (I was perfectly aware of how close she had come to dying, because I had very big ears, and seldom missed an adult conversation anywhere in my vicinity.) This was far more traumatic to me than anything to do with the 2X2ism in my life. As a consequence, when she returned home, I became somewhat insecurely attached to her. I would insist that she would be the only one to turn my light out at night. If I woke up in the middle of the night, I would tiptoe into my parents bedroom, and stand and watch her breathing in and out. Reassured, I would tiptoe back to my bedroom. I was okay at school, because there was lots of activity and things to engage my interest, except for the long and boring school assemblies. Then, I would start thinking of my mom and I would start shrugging my shoulder, to wipe the tears away so that no one would see.
After a little while, my mom sat me down and read me those verses in Matthew 10:29-31 "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows." She asked me if I could imagine someone knowing me so well, that He even knew the number of hairs on my head. (We had a little game of trying to count the hairs on my head, using a mirror.) We had sparrows on our farm, and she asked me if I thought I could trust that I was more valuable than a sparrow. Intellectually, I instantly got her point. Emotionally, it took me a little longer. It taught me that there was a place of quiet confidence in me that I could summon whenever I needed it, regardless of what was happening around me. This probably also helped me keep the concept of hell in perspective. The idea of hell, and the eminent chance of your mothers death must have been very traumatic events for you as a child. I find the 2x2 are no more protected than anyone else. I find Matthew 10:29-31 doesn't do a thing. I knew some workers who died in a car crash, and another one who was killed by a car as he walked along the road. The friends and workers seem to suffer calamities the same as everyone else. It took me a long time to get over the fear of hell. As for the fear of my own death, I don't fear it. I don't want to die, but to live as long as I can. I only fear suffering a long time before I die. I remember in every gospel mission they preached at least one night on Luke 16:19-31. The fear of death, and the fear of hell was always used to get you to profess.
Luke 16:19-31 (KJV):
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
It still is used. I watched a convention this summer on zoom and the Saturday night meeting the overseer spoke and he literally said to think about leaving convention and having an accident on the Trans Canada highway. That triggered me and made me so angry because sure enough kids professed when they tested the meeting that night. How can anyone love a God they fear? |
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Post by snow on Jan 8, 2024 18:56:20 GMT -5
The idea of hell, and the eminent chance of your mothers death must have been very traumatic events for you as a child. I find the 2x2 are no more protected than anyone else. I find Matthew 10:29-31 doesn't do a thing. I knew some workers who died in a car crash, and another one who was killed by a car as he walked along the road. The friends and workers seem to suffer calamities the same as everyone else. It took me a long time to get over the fear of hell. As for the fear of my own death, I don't fear it. I don't want to die, but to live as long as I can. I only fear suffering a long time before I die. I remember in every gospel mission they preached at least one night on Luke 16:19-31. The fear of death, and the fear of hell was always used to get you to profess. The idea of hell, decades hence (only if I was a very bad person) paled in comparison to the trauma that I felt wondering on days when I came home on the school bus if my very fun, creative mother was no longer there (again), and in her place, my very British, buttoned-down, proper paternal grandmother. (Of course the 2X2 are no more protected from tragedy than anyone else. That was not even really a part of my child's world picture. The verses in Matthew only helped me understand how important we all were in the scheme of things.) I am not afraid of hell, either now or the hereafter. I am not even sure if I fear suffering before I die. I may fear disgracing myself in how I handle suffering before I die. I probably need to work on that. Did you profess out of fear of hell? I didn't. Seeing as I started psychoanalyzing myself on a very public forum this morning, I might as well keep it up: I professed the summer I was 8, turning 9 that fall, at Portage convention to Hymn 62, (I think, at that time): "Lord I desire to come now to thee". I professed, not out of a fear of hell, but a feeling of stoicism at taking my proper place in the order of things. Or, so I always thought, until and hour or two ago when I was typing my previous post on this thread. I had a bit of a realization then, that is probably largely correct: I did not have a devouring mother (thankfully). After her illness, I think she realized that she needed to make me more independent, to help me grow up. At a later point in life (I had her for another 25 years), she said to me "It is very nice when someone thinks the world of you, worships you. But I knew I had to push you away, make you more independent, because I knew you wouldn't always have me." She brought this up again in the days before she died, with almost a plea in her voice. And though I was 29 then, I couldn't quite give her the reassurance that she probably wanted. I can give it to her now, in spades. She made me independent. Even contrary. I am so grateful for that. Thank you, mom. It has served me so incredibly well in the years since. This is the realization I had this morning: In the years immediately following her illness, when she was probably wondering "what the hell do I do with this kid?", it was common practice for us kids to go to sleep in Wed night meeting, after a full day of activities at school. One night, when I was probably about 7, she refused to let me lay my head in her lap to go to sleep. After, she explained to me, that I was now a big girl, and should be paying attention in Wed meeting. And so I did, for the next year or so. When I stood up at Portage convention when the meeting was tested, she was horrified. She tugged at my skirt to get me to sit down. But I was defiant. Perhaps I was proving to her that I was now grown up? Kids are complex. The motivations of human beings are complex. Very little is simple. But hell was really not on my radar screen. I also professed at 8 years old. It was gospel meetings and it was Stanley Lee (who could scare anyone lol) and Stanley Sharpe who I loved and wanted him to be proud of me. So I think it was based on a mix of fear and wanting to please. My parents were so happy so that was also a plus. I wanted them to love me. I knew I was adopted and during the early years I was still afraid of it all ending. So it wasn't just the 2x2's influence it was me being taken from by birth mother after 4 days and living in a hospital setting for a month and a half where I'm sure I probably didn't get the holding when I cried etc. Then I went to a home where I was supposed to get adopted but the social worker found out the man was abusive and an alcoholic so I was taken while I was asleep when I was 9 months old (bonding time) and I never saw that mother again. So when I was finally adopted at almost 2 years old, I was already programmed to think that I could lose the people I loved at any time. So I tried to be very good. I love that your mom tugged on your skirt to sit down. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 8, 2024 19:19:25 GMT -5
It still is used. I watched a convention this summer on zoom and the Saturday night meeting the overseer spoke and he literally said to think about leaving convention and having an accident on the Trans Canada highway. That triggered me and made me so angry because sure enough kids professed when they tested the meeting that night. How can anyone love a God they fear? If workers understood the fear of God they would make a firm stand against sexual immorality and especially CSA. |
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Post by Pragmatic on Jan 8, 2024 19:47:15 GMT -5
I have an inconoclastic theory that flies in the face of orthodox Christian teaching. I could well be wrong, and I stress, it's only a theory.
Some text refer to Jesus as being in the twelfth year, not that he was twelve. Given the shift in calendar years to the Julian calendar, he could have in fact been as old as eighteen, an initiation age into adulthood. This could explain why his parents weren't so concerned as to his whereabouts as you would expect if he was twelve. It would also explain his education which astounded people.
However, even if he was only twelve, going about his Father's business is not translatable into professing in front of hundreds for a knee quaking twelve year old child fearing Hell.
Down here, it very rare for kids this young to profess, although I have heard of one or two even younger. Some last, many don't.
When you consider that children growing up in a Catholic home become Catholics, Buddhists Buddhist, Muslims Muslim etc, it shows that the over-riding factor is a psychological one.
I have been to a Catholic confirmation for some young kids, and while they had been taught the rituals, they had no clue about what was going on, and the world around them, and why.
I well recall a moronic worker (AL) years ago who wasn't the brightest bulb in the chandelier. And he preached that Skylab could fall on a person who didn't profess when given the opportunity. He preached about someone's employer being wiped out in the Napier earthquake, and this person had asked for permission to attend convention and was declined. So he went to convention anyway, risking his job. Another sister worker, (AB) preached the same stuff.
This was apocalyptic preaching at it's worst, and I felt so sorry for the brainwashed kids sitting in the meeting with tears rolling down their cheeks, so conflicted.
When I professed in my very late teens, I told the worker, that he had to accept that I did not believe in exclusivity, and that I saw the fellowship as simply a church, and that I did not go along with hellfire and brimstone preaching. I also said that I may go into the military, and they would have to accept that, otherwise no deal. My parents were aghast! I professed.
The following year, the worker in our district refused to baptise me, because he considered my hair was too long. I sat him out. Two years later, different worker (JB and GT), no change from me, no problem.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 8, 2024 20:27:46 GMT -5
I also professed at 8 years old. It was gospel meetings and it was Stanley Lee (who could scare anyone lol) and Stanley Sharpe who I loved and wanted him to be proud of me. So I think it was based on a mix of fear and wanting to please. My parents were so happy so that was also a plus. I wanted them to love me. I knew I was adopted and during the early years I was still afraid of it all ending. So it wasn't just the 2x2's influence it was me being taken from by birth mother after 4 days and living in a hospital setting for a month and a half where I'm sure I probably didn't get the holding when I cried etc. Then I went to a home where I was supposed to get adopted but the social worker found out the man was abusive and an alcoholic so I was taken while I was asleep when I was 9 months old (bonding time) and I never saw that mother again. So when I was finally adopted at almost 2 years old, I was already programmed to think that I could lose the people I loved at any time. So I tried to be very good. I love that your mom tugged on your skirt to sit down. I think you are a couple of years older than me, aren’t you? I just had a thought makes me chuckle as I sit here. Did you get up at convention and give your testimony when you were that young? I don’t remember a lot of the thought process that went into me standing to my feet at that convention. I know that my brother (5 years older) had just professed the year before, so I know that it was definitely on my radar screen that it was something you did when you got older. (I was aware that Jesus was supposedly 12 years old when he supposedly professed which was the age my brother was.) But I do not know what gave me the idea that I could profess when I was 8/almost 9? Could it have been that I saw a girl close to my age giving her testimony across the meeting shed (or was it still a tent then)? Could that girl have been you? Lol. Maybe it was your fault? Lol. I have no idea if something like that factored into it or not. I actually don’t regret having professed that young now, though. It at least took me out of the worker sights. My next older brother didn’t profess until he was 15, and I was aware of the pressure that some of the workers put him under. I was pretty happy to escape all of that. My mother never said a word to me about it. But I heard her discussing it with my Aunt when she thought I was asleep. My Aunt, bless her heart, said “I’m sure she will be very good”. As in, that I would have a helpful part in meeting. I think of it, now, from an adult perspective – older than my mom ever got. I may have been declaring to my mom that I was grown up, and reporting to new management. That she might have had a right to an opinion, but that she was no longer the ultimate authority in my life. Who knows? Kids are interesting. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 8, 2024 20:39:49 GMT -5
The following year, the worker in our district refused to baptise me, because he considered my hair was too long. I sat him out. Two years later, different worker (JB and GT), no change from me, no problem. I did not get baptised until I was 19. I did it very prayerfully and very thoughtfully after much consideration. You were supposed to discuss it with a worker you felt close to. I didn't bother, because I didn't feel particularly close to any of them. Nobody said a word, even though I wore jeans a lot and my hair was almost never in a bun. Ardeth Fritz kindly stepped up to shepherd me through the actual process. I appreciate her graciousness to this day. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 8, 2024 22:46:35 GMT -5
Yes. I've been really reluctant to see it as a cult, but I think that isn't there anymore. I believe it is a cult. There are degrees of dangerousness to cults so I don't see this one as over the top dangerous like Jim Jones for example. But knowing what I know now about the group, cult definitions check boxes often for this group. I am inclined to wonder which is worse snow. At least the Jim jones cult died out (literally) quickly. This cult just goes on and on hurting multiple generations. Ya I get it - it’s not all bad - but hard to compare is my point. It appears the Jim Jones cult died out, but not entirely. I know a guy whose family belonged to that group, but some of them happened not to end up in Jonestown at the time of the mass suicide. Unofficially these left overs just quietly long for the good old days with other believers. Quite weird when such a disaster will still not free everyone of its hold over them. |
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Post by verna on Jan 8, 2024 22:48:07 GMT -5
I also professed at 8 years old. It was gospel meetings and it was Stanley Lee (who could scare anyone lol) and Stanley Sharpe who I loved and wanted him to be proud of me. So I think it was based on a mix of fear and wanting to please. My parents were so happy so that was also a plus. I wanted them to love me. I knew I was adopted and during the early years I was still afraid of it all ending. So it wasn't just the 2x2's influence it was me being taken from by birth mother after 4 days and living in a hospital setting for a month and a half where I'm sure I probably didn't get the holding when I cried etc. Then I went to a home where I was supposed to get adopted but the social worker found out the man was abusive and an alcoholic so I was taken while I was asleep when I was 9 months old (bonding time) and I never saw that mother again. So when I was finally adopted at almost 2 years old, I was already programmed to think that I could lose the people I loved at any time. So I tried to be very good. I love that your mom tugged on your skirt to sit down. I think you are a couple of years older than me, aren’t you? I just had a thought makes me chuckle as I sit here. Did you get up at convention and give your testimony when you were that young? I don’t remember a lot of the thought process that went into me standing to my feet at that convention. I know that my brother (5 years older) had just professed the year before, so I know that it was definitely on my radar screen that it was something you did when you got older. (I was aware that Jesus was supposedly 12 years old when he supposedly professed which was the age my brother was.) But I do not know what gave me the idea that I could profess when I was 8/almost 9? Could it have been that I saw a girl close to my age giving her testimony across the meeting shed (or was it still a tent then)? Could that girl have been you? Lol. Maybe it was your fault? Lol. I have no idea if something like that factored into it or not. I actually don’t regret having professed that young now, though. It at least took me out of the worker sights. My next older brother didn’t profess until he was 15, and I was aware of the pressure that some of the workers put him under. I was pretty happy to escape all of that. My mother never said a word to me about it. But I heard her discussing it with my Aunt when she thought I was asleep. My Aunt, bless her heart, said “I’m sure she will be very good”. As in, that I would have a helpful part in meeting. I think of it, now, from an adult perspective – older than my mom ever got. I may have been declaring to my mom that I was grown up, and reporting to new management. That she might have had a right to an opinion, but that she was no longer the ultimate authority in my life. Who knows? Kids are interesting. I’m perplexed about my professing experience because I never stood up in a tested meeting. For some reason I didn’t think that requirement applied to me. I think I must have thought that was just for outsiders. I don’t know how old I was (quite young for sure) but I just stood up at convention and gave my testimony. I don’t know what I was thinking. I didn’t follow it up with taking part in meetings. No one talked to me about it. The next year I gave my testimony again at convention and this time I followed it up by taking part in fellowship meetings. I guess I never got the memo. Maybe that’s what I did wrong. Never followed the rules from the beginning. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 1:47:48 GMT -5
I think you are a couple of years older than me, aren’t you? I just had a thought makes me chuckle as I sit here. Did you get up at convention and give your testimony when you were that young? I don’t remember a lot of the thought process that went into me standing to my feet at that convention. I know that my brother (5 years older) had just professed the year before, so I know that it was definitely on my radar screen that it was something you did when you got older. (I was aware that Jesus was supposedly 12 years old when he supposedly professed which was the age my brother was.) But I do not know what gave me the idea that I could profess when I was 8/almost 9? Could it have been that I saw a girl close to my age giving her testimony across the meeting shed (or was it still a tent then)? Could that girl have been you? Lol. Maybe it was your fault? Lol. I have no idea if something like that factored into it or not. I actually don’t regret having professed that young now, though. It at least took me out of the worker sights. My next older brother didn’t profess until he was 15, and I was aware of the pressure that some of the workers put him under. I was pretty happy to escape all of that. My mother never said a word to me about it. But I heard her discussing it with my Aunt when she thought I was asleep. My Aunt, bless her heart, said “I’m sure she will be very good”. As in, that I would have a helpful part in meeting. I think of it, now, from an adult perspective – older than my mom ever got. I may have been declaring to my mom that I was grown up, and reporting to new management. That she might have had a right to an opinion, but that she was no longer the ultimate authority in my life. Who knows? Kids are interesting. I’m perplexed about my professing experience because I never stood up in a tested meeting. For some reason I didn’t think that requirement applied to me. I think I must have thought that was just for outsiders. I don’t know how old I was (quite young for sure) but I just stood up at convention and gave my testimony. I don’t know what I was thinking. I didn’t follow it up with taking part in meetings. No one talked to me about it. The next year I gave my testimony again at convention and this time I followed it up by taking part in fellowship meetings. I guess I never got the memo. Maybe that’s what I did wrong. Never followed the rules from the beginning. That is weird.... |
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Post by Dan on Jan 9, 2024 3:48:25 GMT -5
It still is used. I watched a convention this summer on zoom and the Saturday night meeting the overseer spoke and he literally said to think about leaving convention and having an accident on the Trans Canada highway. That triggered me and made me so angry because sure enough kids professed when they tested the meeting that night. How can anyone love a God they fear?
Its wrong for any church to proclaim that only your patronage to them can deliver you from the fiery depths of hell. Someone else claimed that authority. Professing is a way of life formulated by men, but adhering to John 3:16 is salvation simplified. When I was 6, Catholicism implied that Dante’s Inferno described hell, and that scared me. But then I grew up, no Christian needs to fear hell.
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Post by Admin on Jan 9, 2024 7:14:40 GMT -5
From the more glimpses we get of early 2x2 days in the USA, I sense Jack Carroll and his ilk have a lot to answer for.
When I professed, I come to discover Jack Carroll was the Overseer in the West USA, and George Walker was Overseer in the East. I lived in the eastern USA and hell and brimfire was a central part of the gospel message. During the 60's - 80's I understood the west was more liberal than the east. I don't know what the main theological differences were between the east and west other than attending a few Sunday morning meetings in LA. In the west I understood they could have radios and wedding rings. I was old enough to remember one sister worker with black stockings. Several others wore victorian high top lace up shoes. In the West they didn't kneel to pray like in the east. I know several who moved from the east to the west because the west was more liberal. Thanks xna for that bit of personal knowledge of early USA 2x2 history. I'll modify my theory, to "I sense Jack Carroll, George Walker & Co. have a lot to answer for"  Some of Jack Carroll's teaching can be found here Jack Carroll doctrine. You have an interesting story of your brush with the F&W! admin |
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Post by Admin on Jan 9, 2024 7:41:23 GMT -5
I’m perplexed about my professing experience because I never stood up in a tested meeting. For some reason I didn’t think that requirement applied to me. I think I must have thought that was just for outsiders. I don’t know how old I was (quite young for sure) but I just stood up at convention and gave my testimony. I don’t know what I was thinking. I didn’t follow it up with taking part in meetings. No one talked to me about it. The next year I gave my testimony again at convention and this time I followed it up by taking part in fellowship meetings. I guess I never got the memo. Maybe that’s what I did wrong. Never followed the rules from the beginning. Great story verna, great method by you for proclaiming that stage of your personal journey! There's nothing biblical that commands "thou shalt profess by standing up in a gospel meeting, and by none other method". For some reason the F&W have always been very formulaic about how to join the church/fellowship meeting. The method that just seemed perfectly proper and appropriate for young you was probably much more in keeping with the early days of the church as recorded in the Book of Acts (where the methods were established by the Holy Spirit, no set formula and generally no two "conversions" identical in the natural/form sense). The fact that it sounds like the people in the church/fellowship meetings that you just naturally started taking part in accepted you, also suggests those folk were being guided by the Spirit more than by man's methods and set rules on "how things should be done"! |
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Post by verna on Jan 9, 2024 8:53:06 GMT -5
I’m perplexed about my professing experience because I never stood up in a tested meeting. For some reason I didn’t think that requirement applied to me. I think I must have thought that was just for outsiders. I don’t know how old I was (quite young for sure) but I just stood up at convention and gave my testimony. I don’t know what I was thinking. I didn’t follow it up with taking part in meetings. No one talked to me about it. The next year I gave my testimony again at convention and this time I followed it up by taking part in fellowship meetings. I guess I never got the memo. Maybe that’s what I did wrong. Never followed the rules from the beginning. That is weird.... Which part of you find weird Wally? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2024 14:00:45 GMT -5
Which part of you find weird Wally? You just started professing on your own and no one said anything. I don't find what happened wrong just different than the normal regular way it is done... |
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Post by verna on Jan 9, 2024 14:22:36 GMT -5
Which part of you find weird Wally? You just started professing on your own and no one said anything. I don't find what happened wrong just different than the normal regular way it is done... Ok - ya I agree. I look back and think - “what was I thinking?” - and I was there. |
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Post by verna on Jan 9, 2024 14:31:53 GMT -5
I’m perplexed about my professing experience because I never stood up in a tested meeting. For some reason I didn’t think that requirement applied to me. I think I must have thought that was just for outsiders. I don’t know how old I was (quite young for sure) but I just stood up at convention and gave my testimony. I don’t know what I was thinking. I didn’t follow it up with taking part in meetings. No one talked to me about it. The next year I gave my testimony again at convention and this time I followed it up by taking part in fellowship meetings. I guess I never got the memo. Maybe that’s what I did wrong. Never followed the rules from the beginning. Great story verna, great method by you for proclaiming that stage of your personal journey! There's nothing biblical that commands "thou shalt profess by standing up in a gospel meeting, and by none other method". For some reason the F&W have always been very formulaic about how to join the church/fellowship meeting. The method that just seemed perfectly proper and appropriate for young you was probably much more in keeping with the early days of the church as recorded in the Book of Acts (where the methods were established by the Holy Spirit, no set formula and generally no two "conversions" identical in the natural/form sense). The fact that it sounds like the people in the church/fellowship meetings that you just naturally started taking part in accepted you, also suggests those folk were being guided by the Spirit more than by man's methods and set rules on "how things should be done"! Thx Admin. Ya I think it was ok and quite “me-ish”. Always feel like I’m making things up as I go along. Never too sure what the hell is going on! All I remember is I was swinging in the yard and a brother worker (workers wandering around was the norm during preps as I grew up on convention grounds) walked by and off handedly asked something about if I was going to make it stick that year. So I did it again. |
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Post by snow on Jan 9, 2024 15:35:25 GMT -5
I have an inconoclastic theory that flies in the face of orthodox Christian teaching. I could well be wrong, and I stress, it's only a theory. Some text refer to Jesus as being in the twelfth year, not that he was twelve. Given the shift in calendar years to the Julian calendar, he could have in fact been as old as eighteen, an initiation age into adulthood. This could explain why his parents weren't so concerned as to his whereabouts as you would expect if he was twelve. It would also explain his education which astounded people. However, even if he was only twelve, going about his Father's business is not translatable into professing in front of hundreds for a knee quaking twelve year old child fearing Hell. Down here, it very rare for kids this young to profess, although I have heard of one or two even younger. Some last, many don't. When you consider that children growing up in a Catholic home become Catholics, Buddhists Buddhist, Muslims Muslim etc, it shows that the over-riding factor is a psychological one. I have been to a Catholic confirmation for some young kids, and while they had been taught the rituals, they had no clue about what was going on, and the world around them, and why. I well recall a moronic worker (AL) years ago who wasn't the brightest bulb in the chandelier. And he preached that Skylab could fall on a person who didn't profess when given the opportunity. He preached about someone's employer being wiped out in the Napier earthquake, and this person had asked for permission to attend convention and was declined. So he went to convention anyway, risking his job. Another sister worker, (AB) preached the same stuff. This was apocalyptic preaching at it's worst, and I felt so sorry for the brainwashed kids sitting in the meeting with tears rolling down their cheeks, so conflicted. When I professed in my very late teens, I told the worker, that he had to accept that I did not believe in exclusivity, and that I saw the fellowship as simply a church, and that I did not go along with hellfire and brimstone preaching. I also said that I may go into the military, and they would have to accept that, otherwise no deal. My parents were aghast! I professed. The following year, the worker in our district refused to baptise me, because he considered my hair was too long. I sat him out. Two years later, different worker (JB and GT), no change from me, no problem. Growing up I remember those stories from the workers. In fact, I remember them better than anything else they preached now. I never was baptized because I quit professing before they suggested it. I remember watching a lot of my friends get baptized though. Most of the time it was cold and raining and I thought how glad that wasn't me getting submerged in cold water. Even then it held no meaning for me. Jesus Camp for anyone interested. Warning it's a tough one to watch. We didn't do this in the 2x2's but we did hear all the time that we were special. That salvation was only found in our church. I remember when we still went door to door like JW's. I hated that. Always heard from my dad that I had to be an example for the world. Dress right, talk to my friends about our church. Bring my friends to gospel meeting etc. watchdocumentaries.com/jesus-camp/ Or if you want to watch it in segments. |
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Post by snow on Jan 9, 2024 15:40:58 GMT -5
I also professed at 8 years old. It was gospel meetings and it was Stanley Lee (who could scare anyone lol) and Stanley Sharpe who I loved and wanted him to be proud of me. So I think it was based on a mix of fear and wanting to please. My parents were so happy so that was also a plus. I wanted them to love me. I knew I was adopted and during the early years I was still afraid of it all ending. So it wasn't just the 2x2's influence it was me being taken from by birth mother after 4 days and living in a hospital setting for a month and a half where I'm sure I probably didn't get the holding when I cried etc. Then I went to a home where I was supposed to get adopted but the social worker found out the man was abusive and an alcoholic so I was taken while I was asleep when I was 9 months old (bonding time) and I never saw that mother again. So when I was finally adopted at almost 2 years old, I was already programmed to think that I could lose the people I loved at any time. So I tried to be very good. I love that your mom tugged on your skirt to sit down. I think you are a couple of years older than me, aren’t you? I just had a thought makes me chuckle as I sit here. Did you get up at convention and give your testimony when you were that young? I don’t remember a lot of the thought process that went into me standing to my feet at that convention. I know that my brother (5 years older) had just professed the year before, so I know that it was definitely on my radar screen that it was something you did when you got older. (I was aware that Jesus was supposedly 12 years old when he supposedly professed which was the age my brother was.) But I do not know what gave me the idea that I could profess when I was 8/almost 9? Could it have been that I saw a girl close to my age giving her testimony across the meeting shed (or was it still a tent then)? Could that girl have been you? Lol. Maybe it was your fault? Lol. I have no idea if something like that factored into it or not. I actually don’t regret having professed that young now, though. It at least took me out of the worker sights. My next older brother didn’t profess until he was 15, and I was aware of the pressure that some of the workers put him under. I was pretty happy to escape all of that. My mother never said a word to me about it. But I heard her discussing it with my Aunt when she thought I was asleep. My Aunt, bless her heart, said “I’m sure she will be very good”. As in, that I would have a helpful part in meeting. I think of it, now, from an adult perspective – older than my mom ever got. I may have been declaring to my mom that I was grown up, and reporting to new management. That she might have had a right to an opinion, but that she was no longer the ultimate authority in my life. Who knows? Kids are interesting. I am 68. So if you were sitting in Portage La Prairie convention it was likely me then! So sorry! I remember standing up and waiting for the workers to point to me and how incredibly terrified I was. I professed in the gospel meetings the winter before so the next summer there I was standing up at convention shaking like a leaf but I did it. Made me great at facing crowds in my career and giving speeches or addressing large rooms of staff that I supervised. So, silver lining! |
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 9, 2024 15:59:39 GMT -5
I am 68. So if you were sitting in Portage La Prairie convention it was likely me then! So sorry! I remember standing up and waiting for the workers to point to me and how incredibly terrified I was. I professed in the gospel meetings the winter before so the next summer there I was standing up at convention shaking like a leaf but I did it. Made me great at facing crowds in my career and giving speeches or addressing large rooms of staff that I supervised. So, silver lining! Lol. I'm 65. I have no conscious memory of this. At all. But I do know myself very well. I am very good at synthesis and integration, not so good at original thought. So I had to get the thought from somewhere! It may have even been an overheard conversation (I was very good at those!) that such-and-such little girl somewhere had professed. I know it was not common for that time period. It became more common later, before parents and other authorities began to curb it, giving kids permission to be kids a little longer. (Which was a good thing.) |
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Post by snow on Jan 9, 2024 16:07:56 GMT -5
I think you are a couple of years older than me, aren’t you? I just had a thought makes me chuckle as I sit here. Did you get up at convention and give your testimony when you were that young? I don’t remember a lot of the thought process that went into me standing to my feet at that convention. I know that my brother (5 years older) had just professed the year before, so I know that it was definitely on my radar screen that it was something you did when you got older. (I was aware that Jesus was supposedly 12 years old when he supposedly professed which was the age my brother was.) But I do not know what gave me the idea that I could profess when I was 8/almost 9? Could it have been that I saw a girl close to my age giving her testimony across the meeting shed (or was it still a tent then)? Could that girl have been you? Lol. Maybe it was your fault? Lol. I have no idea if something like that factored into it or not. I actually don’t regret having professed that young now, though. It at least took me out of the worker sights. My next older brother didn’t profess until he was 15, and I was aware of the pressure that some of the workers put him under. I was pretty happy to escape all of that. My mother never said a word to me about it. But I heard her discussing it with my Aunt when she thought I was asleep. My Aunt, bless her heart, said “I’m sure she will be very good”. As in, that I would have a helpful part in meeting. I think of it, now, from an adult perspective – older than my mom ever got. I may have been declaring to my mom that I was grown up, and reporting to new management. That she might have had a right to an opinion, but that she was no longer the ultimate authority in my life. Who knows? Kids are interesting. I’m perplexed about my professing experience because I never stood up in a tested meeting. For some reason I didn’t think that requirement applied to me. I think I must have thought that was just for outsiders. I don’t know how old I was (quite young for sure) but I just stood up at convention and gave my testimony. I don’t know what I was thinking. I didn’t follow it up with taking part in meetings. No one talked to me about it. The next year I gave my testimony again at convention and this time I followed it up by taking part in fellowship meetings. I guess I never got the memo. Maybe that’s what I did wrong. Never followed the rules from the beginning. That's interesting. I always knew I had to if I wanted to take part in meeting. |
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