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Post by snow on Jan 6, 2024 19:49:13 GMT -5
This is a subject that doesn't get talked about much on here. This video really resonated with me because my parents were even more strict than a lot of the friends. The way the friends and workers treated me when I quit professing at 12 years old. Me being belittled by the workers when I asked questions. Being forced to attend meetings until I left home the night I wrote my final exam really was not an easy time for me. I had a year of real loneliness when I quit because I wasn't allowed friends from school and when I quit taking part in meetings I was viewed by many of kids parents as a 'bad influence' and that limited my access to some of the kids that had been my friend. I was told how ungrateful I was. After all my parents had given me everything when they adopted me and this is how I rewarded them. Things like that. I had one woman tell me I was the reason my mother got cancer. Because I was so hard to raise. Most of my relatives did not profess so I was quite upset that they were going to hell, because that's what was taught to me. Things like that told to a child leaves lasting trauma for a long time and I am still struggling with feeling like I have worth. Worthy of being loved etc.
Anyway, I know now that a lot of exes suffer from many of the same struggles that I have over their lives so I wanted to start a conversation here if anyone feels they would like to comment. Finding out that the struggles I have had in life are very common has actually been very healing for me. I left 50 years ago and so I never knew anyone that had ever left. It's only been since I found this forum and more recently the ex2x2 site on Face Book that I have had any idea just how similar the trauma is for many of us. Now with the knowledge that the workers who we were supposed to believe were to be respected and almost worshipped in my household anyway, and the CSA. The number of survivors that must be feeling such trauma and betrayal. Thankfully I have worked through a lot of things over the years and have found a good deal of peace in my life.
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Post by xna on Jan 6, 2024 19:57:14 GMT -5
This is a subject that doesn't get talked about much on here. Sorry you had to endure so much trauma and injustice. Some say " Adversity builds character', but I like James Lane Allen's version: " Adversity does not build character, it reveals it." |
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Post by snow on Jan 6, 2024 20:08:40 GMT -5
This is a subject that doesn't get talked about much on here. Sorry you had to endure so much trauma and injustice. Some say " Adversity builds character', but I like James Lane Allen's version: " Adversity does not build character, it reveals it." It definitely made me stronger, it taught me how to be okay all alone but it also made me build a wall around myself to keep myself from feeling hurt in those years. It took many years to take that wall down and allowing myself to feel more fully. Because a wall does protect us from feeling hurt but it also doesn't allow others to get too close to you so you don't feel that you can trust love for example. It's still there to some degree and I do feel it rising up when I am feeling really vulnerable. |
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Post by xna on Jan 6, 2024 20:35:36 GMT -5
It took many years to take that wall down and allowing myself to feel more fully. Because a wall does protect us from feeling hurt but it also doesn't allow others to get too close to you so you don't feel that you can trust love for example. It's still there to some degree and I do feel it rising up when I am feeling really vulnerable. Building emotional walls was required in my work. After I retired I had to tear down those walls as they were no longer required or useful. I was in management for 35+ years and most everyone worked for me, so I could not let my emotions control what needed to be done for the business. This caused me to compartmentalize my works duty from the emotions of the moment. One of the skills you need to develop is to hide your emotions during high stakes negotiations. I think this is one of the reasons most lawyers hate their jobs. The hardest part was closing plants and letting people go. Most did just fine, but a few committed suicide, many more went bankrupt, for others marriages broke up. There isn't much of a security network for the unemployed in the USA. But sometimes letting someone go was the best thing for them. I once let a guy go, he couldn't find a job, so he joined the Army. About 10 years later he looked me up and thanked me for firing him as he said he deserved it, and the Army was what he needed to straighten his life up. |
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Post by fixit on Jan 7, 2024 3:55:05 GMT -5
It took many years to take that wall down and allowing myself to feel more fully. Because a wall does protect us from feeling hurt but it also doesn't allow others to get too close to you so you don't feel that you can trust love for example. It's still there to some degree and I do feel it rising up when I am feeling really vulnerable. Building emotional walls was required in my work. After I retired I had to tear down those walls as they were no longer required or useful. I was in management for 35+ years and most everyone worked for me, so I could not let my emotions control what needed to be done for the business. This caused me to compartmentalize my works duty from the emotions of the moment. One of the skills you need to develop is to hide your emotions during high stakes negotiations. I think this is one of the reasons most lawyers hate their jobs. The hardest part was closing plants and letting people go. Most did just fine, but a few committed suicide, many more went bankrupt, for others marriages broke up. There isn't much of a security network for the unemployed in the USA. But sometimes letting someone go was the best thing for them. I once let a guy go, he couldn't find a job, so he joined the Army. About 10 years later he looked me up and thanked me for firing him as he said he deserved it, and the Army was what he needed to straighten his life up. Some of what you said here will be challenges faced by 2x2 overseers as well. They may deny that they head up an organisation but that is in fact what they do. They juggle their own spiritual journey and the spiritual journey of all members, as well as try to do what is best for the organisation. |
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Post by xna on Jan 7, 2024 10:44:48 GMT -5
Some of what you said here will be challenges faced by 2x2 overseers as well.
They may deny that they head up an organisation but that is in fact what they do.
They juggle their own spiritual journey and the spiritual journey of all members, as well as try to do what is best for the organisation. Only sociopaths have no concern for others who's lives they can impact. The part that I find disingenuous is that when I professed it was preached that we have no earthly organization. We are lead by the holy spirit, and our headquarters are in heaven. But years later it turned out there was an earthly organization. And more than a few of the top dogs (not know to us at the time) like George Walker would spend time in our home. Those were the halcyon days, as they say. We were both outsiders, young, naive, and had no history with others in the group. We believed everything they said. The workers should have told the truth about their organization. This was a red flag. Learning of William Irvine was the 2nd and last red flag. The workers should have told the truth about their beginnings. After learning these things we left religion all together. Thinking about the OP. Most of my trauma came from leaving my families religion, being separated from them, and being disillusioned with the secret parts of the 2x2. The choice to profess was my own, but it was predicated on false representations about organization and apostolic succession. Both of which were strong persuaders. The 2x2 coverups is on them. This experience caused me to be skeptical about all religions. Over the years, the more I looked into it, the more I concluded the bible was just works of literature, and there is nothing supernatural going on. With what I knew then, and the circumstances then, I can understand why I made the choices I did. Reflections on my experience helps me understand myself better, as well as understand others who are also involved with religion. That's the upside for me. |
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Post by snow on Jan 7, 2024 13:26:40 GMT -5
It took many years to take that wall down and allowing myself to feel more fully. Because a wall does protect us from feeling hurt but it also doesn't allow others to get too close to you so you don't feel that you can trust love for example. It's still there to some degree and I do feel it rising up when I am feeling really vulnerable. Building emotional walls was required in my work. After I retired I had to tear down those walls as they were no longer required or useful. I was in management for 35+ years and most everyone worked for me, so I could not let my emotions control what needed to be done for the business. This caused me to compartmentalize my works duty from the emotions of the moment. One of the skills you need to develop is to hide your emotions during high stakes negotiations. I think this is one of the reasons most lawyers hate their jobs. The hardest part was closing plants and letting people go. Most did just fine, but a few committed suicide, many more went bankrupt, for others marriages broke up. There isn't much of a security network for the unemployed in the USA. But sometimes letting someone go was the best thing for them. I once let a guy go, he couldn't find a job, so he joined the Army. About 10 years later he looked me up and thanked me for firing him as he said he deserved it, and the Army was what he needed to straighten his life up. I always seemed to be promoted to management in the jobs I held. I never thought about how my ability to build walls helped me in that though. I can see how it did though. I hated employee evaluations that I had to do on all my staff once a year and I hated firing people. I also didn't like the confrontation if one employee complained about another employee. My first experience of feeling 'not one of the crowd' at work was when I was 20 and I was promoted to the secretary of the President of an Oil company. Huge position for someone that young and all of a sudden the room would go quiet when I walked through it. Before I was included in the talk. I did get used to it because it seemed I always ended up in a position where I had the authority to fire and that does isolate you from the rest of the people in your company. |
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Post by snow on Jan 7, 2024 13:35:59 GMT -5
Some of what you said here will be challenges faced by 2x2 overseers as well.
They may deny that they head up an organisation but that is in fact what they do.
They juggle their own spiritual journey and the spiritual journey of all members, as well as try to do what is best for the organisation. Only sociopaths have no concern for others who's lives they can impact. The part that I find disingenuous is that when I professed it was preached that we have no earthly organization. We are lead by the holy spirit, and our headquarters are in heaven. But years later it turned out there was an earthly organization. And more than a few of the top dogs (not know to us at the time) like George Walker would spend time in our home. Those were the halcyon days, as they say. We were both outsiders, young, naive, and had no history with others in the group. We believed everything they said. The workers should have told the truth about their organization. This was a red flag. Learning of William Irvine was the 2nd and last red flag. The workers should have told the truth about their beginnings. After learning these things we left religion all together. Thinking about the OP. Most of my trauma came from leaving my families religion, being separated from them, and being disillusioned with the secret parts of the 2x2. The choice to profess was my own, but it was predicated on false representations about organization and apostolic succession. Both of which were strong persuaders. The 2x2 coverups is on them. This experience caused me to be skeptical about all religions. Over the years, the more I looked into it, the more I concluded the bible was just works of literature, and there is nothing supernatural going on. With what I knew then, and the circumstances then, I can understand why I made the choices I did. Reflections on my experience helps me understand myself better, as well as understand others who are also involved with religion. That's the upside for me. The hardest part is loosing family. I was lucky that my parents after I left home didn't shun me. We kept working at our relationship and it worked. I was also lucky that most of my family didn't profess so I never had them to lose. There is no one left in my family that professes. It was pretty hard when I quit professing and still had to live at home for the next 5 years. My dad in particular made it hard. I wanted to wear mascara because I was so blonde you couldn't see my eyelashes and his response that I was a W h o r e. I had to keep my 'worldly' make up and clothes at school during the school year and at my girlfriends houses in the summer. I always felt bad that I had to be so separate from them in order to just do the most normal things. I wasn't a bad kid that drank and did drugs. |
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Post by xna on Jan 7, 2024 13:39:52 GMT -5
Only sociopaths have no concern for others who's lives they can impact. The part that I find disingenuous is that when I professed it was preached that we have no earthly organization. We are lead by the holy spirit, and our headquarters are in heaven. But years later it turned out there was an earthly organization. And more than a few of the top dogs (not know to us at the time) like George Walker would spend time in our home. Those were the halcyon days, as they say. We were both outsiders, young, naive, and had no history with others in the group. We believed everything they said. The workers should have told the truth about their organization. This was a red flag. Learning of William Irvine was the 2nd and last red flag. The workers should have told the truth about their beginnings. After learning these things we left religion all together. Thinking about the OP. Most of my trauma came from leaving my families religion, being separated from them, and being disillusioned with the secret parts of the 2x2. The choice to profess was my own, but it was predicated on false representations about organization and apostolic succession. Both of which were strong persuaders. The 2x2 coverups is on them. This experience caused me to be skeptical about all religions. Over the years, the more I looked into it, the more I concluded the bible was just works of literature, and there is nothing supernatural going on. With what I knew then, and the circumstances then, I can understand why I made the choices I did. Reflections on my experience helps me understand myself better, as well as understand others who are also involved with religion. That's the upside for me. The hardest part is loosing family. I was lucky that my parents after I left home didn't shun me. We kept working at our relationship and it worked. I was also lucky that most of my family didn't profess so I never had them to lose. There is no one left in my family that professes. It was pretty hard when I quit professing and still had to live at home for the next 5 years. My dad in particular made it hard. I wanted to wear mascara because I was so blonde you couldn't see my eyelashes and his response that I was a W h o r e. I had to keep my 'worldly' make up and clothes at school during the school year and at my girlfriends houses in the summer. I always felt bad that I had to be so separate from them in order to just do the most normal things. I wasn't a bad kid that drank and did drugs. The outsider test would say; we are talking about a cult. |
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Post by snow on Jan 7, 2024 15:11:16 GMT -5
The hardest part is loosing family. I was lucky that my parents after I left home didn't shun me. We kept working at our relationship and it worked. I was also lucky that most of my family didn't profess so I never had them to lose. There is no one left in my family that professes. It was pretty hard when I quit professing and still had to live at home for the next 5 years. My dad in particular made it hard. I wanted to wear mascara because I was so blonde you couldn't see my eyelashes and his response that I was a W h o r e. I had to keep my 'worldly' make up and clothes at school during the school year and at my girlfriends houses in the summer. I always felt bad that I had to be so separate from them in order to just do the most normal things. I wasn't a bad kid that drank and did drugs. The outsider test would say; we are talking about a cult. Yes. I've been really reluctant to see it as a cult, but I think that isn't there anymore. I believe it is a cult. There are degrees of dangerousness to cults so I don't see this one as over the top dangerous like Jim Jones for example. But knowing what I know now about the group, cult definitions check boxes often for this group. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 7, 2024 15:42:57 GMT -5
The outsider test would say; we are talking about a cult. Yes. I've been really reluctant to see it as a cult, but I think that isn't there anymore. I believe it is a cult. There are degrees of dangerousness to cults so I don't see this one as over the top dangerous like Jim Jones for example. But knowing what I know now about the group, cult definitions check boxes often for this group. I don't tend to use the "cult" terminology when referring to 2X2's, though no one can deny there are many cult-like aspects to it. I think you can be a pretty integrated, functional human being and still be a member of the 2X2's. Especially these days. My personal view, though, is that the ministry/work component is definitely a cult, and you are unlikely to survive there (for long) with your personality intact. |
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Post by verna on Jan 7, 2024 15:45:16 GMT -5
The outsider test would say; we are talking about a cult. Yes. I've been really reluctant to see it as a cult, but I think that isn't there anymore. I believe it is a cult. There are degrees of dangerousness to cults so I don't see this one as over the top dangerous like Jim Jones for example. But knowing what I know now about the group, cult definitions check boxes often for this group. I am inclined to wonder which is worse snow. At least the Jim jones cult died out (literally) quickly. This cult just goes on and on hurting multiple generations. Ya I get it - it’s not all bad - but hard to compare is my point. |
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Post by snow on Jan 7, 2024 15:50:48 GMT -5
Yes. I've been really reluctant to see it as a cult, but I think that isn't there anymore. I believe it is a cult. There are degrees of dangerousness to cults so I don't see this one as over the top dangerous like Jim Jones for example. But knowing what I know now about the group, cult definitions check boxes often for this group. I am inclined to wonder which is worse snow. At least the Jim jones cult died out (literally) quickly. This cult just goes on and on hurting multiple generations. Ya I get it - it’s not all bad - but hard to compare is my point. That's a good point! I never thought about it in that light. There is continued abuse right now and that horrifies me especially when I read workers letters saying they will take an 'agnostic approach' to it in the future. What does that even mean. It's evident that they aren't taking this as seriously as they are saying in their letters when they are still letting those with allegations in meetings. The damage continues. The letter stating they wouldn't do anything about historic allegations only ones present and future!! That means that they are knowing that their inaction now will cause more suffering, more abuse and yet they won't deal with those with allegations? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2024 16:57:30 GMT -5
Yes. I've been really reluctant to see it as a cult, but I think that isn't there anymore. I believe it is a cult. There are degrees of dangerousness to cults so I don't see this one as over the top dangerous like Jim Jones for example. But knowing what I know now about the group, cult definitions check boxes often for this group. I am inclined to wonder which is worse snow. At least the Jim jones cult died out (literally) quickly. This cult just goes on and on hurting multiple generations. Ya I get it - it’s not all bad - but hard to compare is my point. You can repair hurts to a degree and live, death leaves no 2nd chance....I would take life.... |
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Post by Admin on Jan 7, 2024 19:48:10 GMT -5
This is a subject that doesn't get talked about much on here. This video really resonated with me because my parents were even more strict than a lot of the friends. The way the friends and workers treated me when I quit professing at 12 years old. Me being belittled by the workers when I asked questions. Being forced to attend meetings until I left home the night I wrote my final exam really was not an easy time for me. I had a year of real loneliness when I quit because I wasn't allowed friends from school and when I quit taking part in meetings I was viewed by many of kids parents as a 'bad influence' and that limited my access to some of the kids that had been my friend. I was told how ungrateful I was. After all my parents had given me everything when they adopted me and this is how I rewarded them. Things like that. I had one woman tell me I was the reason my mother got cancer. Because I was so hard to raise. Most of my relatives did not profess so I was quite upset that they were going to hell, because that's what was taught to me. Things like that told to a child leaves lasting trauma for a long time and I am still struggling with feeling like I have worth. Worthy of being loved etc. , your experience and story as that young girl tugs at the heart strings. I know you are in a caring community here on TMB, and from those who retain Christian faith I just want to wrap you in arms of love and extend something of the love that Jesus taught and lived for every little child who suffered injustice at the hands of man and his twisted ideas. |
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Post by Admin on Jan 7, 2024 20:15:58 GMT -5
Most of my relatives did not profess so I was quite upset that they were going to hell, because that's what was taught to me. Things like that told to a child leaves lasting trauma for a long time and I am still struggling with feeling like I have worth. Worthy of being loved etc. Growing up with professing parents, us kids never got any dose of "hell". So it's only reading what was your experience snow that I begin to see that this was maybe widespread and part of meeting culture in some areas. Entirely inappropriate for kids, any age, but must have been incredibly scary and traumatic for children of a very young age. Even now (quite a lot older!) I don't like to think of any concept of "hell". Probably (from my Christian perspective) it's the choice of living with God our creator, or (as so many do in this life anyway) choosing to live separate. But that's not the theme of this thread, rather the inappropriateness of preaching "hell" to young children - be it within the family setting or preachers from a platform. |
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Post by verna on Jan 7, 2024 20:54:13 GMT -5
www.youtube.com/live/1PU8c-fzNwo?si=0vcnvDvZGjXRqtT0I was listening to this today about spiritual abuse. It’s really good. Even the fact that it is by a Christian (maybe a pastor - not sure) didn’t turn me off. Well maybe the prayer at the end. Had to shut that off! The way this guy explains it leaves no doubt that the 2x2 way of doing thing is abusive. Hugs to you Snow.
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Post by xna on Jan 7, 2024 21:29:58 GMT -5
Growing up with professing parents, us kids never got any dose of "hell". That seems very strange, as in the USA the fear of god, and fear of hell was a big part of the motivation to profess, and to continue professing. From the post here from nathan02 , @wally , Dan and many others, "hell" is still a central part of the message. Some examples of fear and hell that were often preached on Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. |
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Post by xna on Jan 8, 2024 14:05:56 GMT -5
That seems very strange, as in the USA the fear of god, and fear of hell was a big part of the motivation to profess, and to continue professing. From the post here from nathan02 , @wally , Dan and many others, "hell" is still a central part of the message. Some examples of fear and hell that were often preached on Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. The verse from Proverbs that you quoted is a classic bit of self serving nonsense. The same tactic is still used today by the religious. We see it daily on here from them. I suspect it is the only way they can justify their head in the sand ignorance. They denigrate wisdom and instruction because of their lack of basic understanding of science and puff themselves up with the knowledge of talking animals and virgin births. If you took going to hell (aka fear) out of religion, it would be much less effective. Fear is one of the strongest emotions. Everyone responds to fear. Fear changes behavior very quickly. That's why they use fear in boot camp to quickly control behavior. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 8, 2024 14:06:50 GMT -5
Growing up with professing parents, us kids never got any dose of "hell". That seems very strange, as in the USA the fear of god, and fear of hell was a big part of the motivation to profess, and to continue professing. ... In my first decade in 2X2ism (0-10yo), hell preaching was commonplace, but it got steadily less over the next 2 decades until I left in 1996. I think it depends on the individual personality of a kid of how negatively it affects them. For myself, I had the concept of hell very early in life. One day, when I would have been around 5 years old I started very vigorously drawing a picture. My next oldest brother (by 2 yrs) asked me what I was drawing, and I said "Hell". He told me that I should very careful, because I could end up there. That gave me pause, enough to make me instantly stop drawing. I had never really thought that I would personally go there before. After all, I was part of God's one true way on earth and he was the God who was not willing any should perish, and also his yoke easy and his burden light. (I had absorbed those concepts too.) Shortly after this, my mom became very ill, and almost died. She was in hospital for a couple of months, and I did not see her during that entire time, because kids under 14 yo were not permitted to visit. (I was perfectly aware of how close she had come to dying, because I had very big ears, and seldom missed an adult conversation anywhere in my vicinity.) This was far more traumatic to me than anything to do with the 2X2ism in my life. As a consequence, when she returned home, I became somewhat insecurely attached to her. I would insist that she would be the only one to turn my light out at night. If I woke up in the middle of the night, I would tiptoe into my parents bedroom, and stand and watch her breathing in and out. Reassured, I would tiptoe back to my bedroom. I was okay at school, because there was lots of activity and things to engage my interest, except for the long and boring school assemblies. Then, I would start thinking of my mom and I would start shrugging my shoulder, to wipe the tears away so that no one would see. After a little while, my mom sat me down and read me those verses in Matthew 10:29-31 "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows." She asked me if I could imagine someone knowing me so well, that He even knew the number of hairs on my head. (We had a little game of trying to count the hairs on my head, using a mirror.) We had sparrows on our farm, and she asked me if I thought I could trust that I was more valuable than a sparrow. Intellectually, I instantly got her point. Emotionally, it took me a little longer. It taught me that there was a place of quiet confidence in me that I could summon whenever I needed it, regardless of what was happening around me. This probably also helped me keep the concept of hell in perspective. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 8, 2024 14:25:43 GMT -5
The verse from Proverbs that you quoted is a classic bit of self serving nonsense. The same tactic is still used today by the religious. We see it daily on here from them. I suspect it is the only way they can justify their head in the sand ignorance. They denigrate wisdom and instruction because of their lack of basic understanding of science and puff themselves up with the knowledge of talking animals and virgin births. If you took gong tp hell / fear out of religion, it would be much less effective. Fear is one of the strongest emotion. Everyone responds to fear. Fear changes behavior very quickly. That's way the use fear in boot camp to control behavior. I was actually thinking of the military after reading some posts earlier. Religion is based on the fear of peeling spuds for eternity if you don't polish those boots. |
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Post by xna on Jan 8, 2024 14:27:24 GMT -5
That seems very strange, as in the USA the fear of god, and fear of hell was a big part of the motivation to profess, and to continue professing. ...
I think it depends on the individual personality of a kid of how negatively it affects them. For myself, I had the concept of hell very early in life. One day, when I would have been around 5 years old I started very vigorously drawing a picture. My next oldest brother (by 2 yrs) asked me what I was drawing, and I said "Hell". He told me that I should very careful, because I could end up there. That gave me pause, enough to make me instantly stop drawing. I had never really thought that I would personally go there before. After all, I was part of God's one true way on earth and he was the God who was not willing any should perish, and also his yoke easy and his burden light. (I had absorbed those concepts too.)
Shortly after this, my mom became very ill, and almost died. She was in hospital for a couple of months, and I did not see her during that entire time, because kids under 14 yo were not permitted to visit. (I was perfectly aware of how close she had come to dying, because I had very big ears, and seldom missed an adult conversation anywhere in my vicinity.) This was far more traumatic to me than anything to do with the 2X2ism in my life. As a consequence, when she returned home, I became somewhat insecurely attached to her. I would insist that she would be the only one to turn my light out at night. If I woke up in the middle of the night, I would tiptoe into my parents bedroom, and stand and watch her breathing in and out. Reassured, I would tiptoe back to my bedroom. I was okay at school, because there was lots of activity and things to engage my interest, except for the long and boring school assemblies. Then, I would start thinking of my mom and I would start shrugging my shoulder, to wipe the tears away so that no one would see.
After a little while, my mom sat me down and read me those verses in Matthew 10:29-31 "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows." She asked me if I could imagine someone knowing me so well, that He even knew the number of hairs on my head. (We had a little game of trying to count the hairs on my head, using a mirror.) We had sparrows on our farm, and she asked me if I thought I could trust that I was more valuable than a sparrow. Intellectually, I instantly got her point. Emotionally, it took me a little longer. It taught me that there was a place of quiet confidence in me that I could summon whenever I needed it, regardless of what was happening around me. This probably also helped me keep the concept of hell in perspective. The idea of hell, and the eminent chance of your mothers death must have been very traumatic events for you as a child. I find the 2x2 are no more protected than anyone else. I find Matthew 10:29-31 doesn't do a thing. I knew some workers who died in a car crash, and another one who was killed by a car as he walked along the road. The friends and workers seem to suffer calamities the same as everyone else. It took me a long time to get over the fear of hell. As for the fear of my own death, I don't fear it. I don't want to die, but to live as long as I can. I only fear suffering a long time before I die. I remember in every gospel mission they preached at least one night on Luke 16:19-31. The fear of death, and the fear of hell was always used to get you to profess.
Luke 16:19-31 (KJV):
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
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Post by fixit on Jan 8, 2024 14:32:42 GMT -5
In my first decade in 2X2ism (0-10yo), hell preaching was commonplace, but it got steadily less over the next 2 decades until I left in 1996. There doesn't seem to be any fear of hell in those who sexually abuse. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 8, 2024 14:43:56 GMT -5
In my first decade in 2X2ism (0-10yo), hell preaching was commonplace, but it got steadily less over the next 2 decades until I left in 1996. There doesn't seem to be any fear of hell in those who sexually abuse. In committing their crimes they are transported to what is heaven for them, hell for the victim. |
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Post by Admin on Jan 8, 2024 16:13:15 GMT -5
Growing up with professing parents, us kids never got any dose of "hell". That seems very strange, as in the USA the fear of god, and fear of hell was a big part of the motivation to profess, and to continue professing. From the post here from nathan02 , @wally , Dan and many others, "hell" is still a central part of the message. From the more glimpses we get of early 2x2 days in the USA, I sense Jack Carroll and his ilk have a lot to answer for. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 8, 2024 16:23:17 GMT -5
The idea of hell, and the eminent chance of your mothers death must have been very traumatic events for you as a child. I find the 2x2 are no more protected than anyone else. I find Matthew 10:29-31 doesn't do a thing. I knew some workers who died in a car crash, and another one who was killed by a car as he walked along the road. The friends and workers seem to suffer calamities the same as everyone else. It took me a long time to get over the fear of hell. As for the fear of my own death, I don't fear it. I don't want to die, but to live as long as I can. I only fear suffering a long time before I die. I remember in every gospel mission they preached at least one night on Luke 16:19-31. The fear of death, and the fear of hell was always used to get you to profess. The idea of hell, decades hence (only if I was a very bad person) paled in comparison to the trauma that I felt wondering on days when I came home on the school bus if my very fun, creative mother was no longer there (again), and in her place, my very British, buttoned-down, proper paternal grandmother. (Of course the 2X2 are no more protected from tragedy than anyone else. That was not even really a part of my child's world picture. The verses in Matthew only helped me understand how important we all were in the scheme of things.) I am not afraid of hell, either now or the hereafter. I am not even sure if I fear suffering before I die. I may fear disgracing myself in how I handle suffering before I die. I probably need to work on that. Did you profess out of fear of hell? I didn't. Seeing as I started psychoanalyzing myself on a very public forum this morning, I might as well keep it up: I professed the summer I was 8, turning 9 that fall, at Portage convention to Hymn 62, (I think, at that time): "Lord I desire to come now to thee". I professed, not out of a fear of hell, but a feeling of stoicism at taking my proper place in the order of things. Or, so I always thought, until and hour or two ago when I was typing my previous post on this thread. I had a bit of a realization then, that is probably largely correct: I did not have a devouring mother (thankfully). After her illness, I think she realized that she needed to make me more independent, to help me grow up. At a later point in life (I had her for another 25 years), she said to me "It is very nice when someone thinks the world of you, worships you. But I knew I had to push you away, make you more independent, because I knew you wouldn't always have me." She brought this up again in the days before she died, with almost a plea in her voice. And though I was 29 then, I couldn't quite give her the reassurance that she probably wanted. I can give it to her now, in spades. She made me independent. Even contrary. I am so grateful for that. Thank you, mom. It has served me so incredibly well in the years since. This is the realization I had this morning: In the years immediately following her illness, when she was probably wondering "what the hell do I do with this kid?", it was common practice for us kids to go to sleep in Wed night meeting, after a full day of activities at school. One night, when I was probably about 7, she refused to let me lay my head in her lap to go to sleep. After, she explained to me, that I was now a big girl, and should be paying attention in Wed meeting. And so I did, for the next year or so. When I stood up at Portage convention when the meeting was tested, she was horrified. She tugged at my skirt to get me to sit down. But I was defiant. Perhaps I was proving to her that I was now grown up? Kids are complex. The motivations of human beings are complex. Very little is simple. But hell was really not on my radar screen. |
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Post by xna on Jan 8, 2024 16:32:48 GMT -5
That seems very strange, as in the USA the fear of god, and fear of hell was a big part of the motivation to profess, and to continue professing. From the post here from nathan02 , @wally , Dan and many others, "hell" is still a central part of the message.
When I professed, I come to discover Jack Carroll was the Overseer in the West USA, and George Walker was Overseer in the East. I lived in the eastern USA and hell and brimfire was a central part of the gospel message. During the 60's - 80's I understood the west was more liberal than the east. I don't know what the main theological differences were between the east and west other than attending a few Sunday morning meetings in LA. In the west I understood they could have radios and wedding rings. I was old enough to remember one sister worker with black stockings. Several others wore victorian high top lace up shoes. In the West they didn't kneel to pray like in the east. I know several who moved from the east to the west because the west was more liberal. |
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Post by xna on Jan 8, 2024 16:46:27 GMT -5
The idea of hell, decades hence (only if I was a very bad person) paled in comparison to the trauma that I felt wondering on days when I came home on the school bus if my very fun, creative mother was no longer there (again), and in her place, my very British, buttoned-down, proper paternal grandmother. Most people have the same religion as their parents. Odds are very high that you would have professed because of this tendency. I on the other hand was a complete outsider who showed up to a gospel meeting. To break me away from my families religion required a lot more pressure. I would say the fear of hell was the main motivator for me. That decision caused a rift between me and my parents. Knowing this the workers preached on Matthew 10:36 "And a man's foes shall be they of his own household." That verse reassured me that I had made the right choice, and had to give up my family to be saved and not go to hell. It was all working out according to gods plan. Or so I was told, and so I then believed. |
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