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Post by xna on Jan 12, 2024 12:54:55 GMT -5
Do you also say that in Luke 16:19-31 there is nothing in these verses that is about hell? "19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
It's a parable, not literal, Jesus said that he only ever spoke in parables and he was speaking to the pharasees, so it's a parable. He only ever revealed the meaning of the parables he spoke to his disciples. Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Are all these verses on hell just parables too? If so, then your position on hell is much like the JW. Matthew 5:22: "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Matthew 5:29-30: "If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."
Matthew 10:28: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matthew 18:9: "And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."
Matthew 23:15: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."
Matthew 23:33: "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"
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Post by maryhig on Jan 12, 2024 13:30:19 GMT -5
It's a parable, not literal, Jesus said that he only ever spoke in parables and he was speaking to the pharasees, so it's a parable. He only ever revealed the meaning of the parables he spoke to his disciples. Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Are all these verses on hell just parables too? If so, then your position on hell is much like the JW. Matthew 5:22: "But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, 'Raca,' is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."
Matthew 5:29-30: "If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."
Matthew 10:28: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Matthew 18:9: "And if your eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell."
Matthew 23:15: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are."
Matthew 23:33: "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"
I know but it's about in this lifetime not when we die. That's what I was saying to Wally. Hell is being separated been God, and once we are separated from God then the devil can have control of us. I don't believe as the Jehovah's witnesses do either.
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Post by snow on Jan 12, 2024 15:42:49 GMT -5
I guess that's where we are very different. If God proved he existed then we wouldn't need to have faith and imo that should be the way it is. It's really not a great thing if God needs to test trust. Maybe that's another reason why I need proof. My early childhood wasn't one that nurtured trust. I do not just trust people. I need evidence that they deserve my trust. It's interesting how we are all so very different. Some value a strong faith in things they can prove and others absolutely need proof. Enoch pleased God? Have you read the book of Enoch? He was a bit of a crazy guy but I guess all God needs is strong faith? Good discussion, thanks Dan and snow. Probably the more crazy we are, the more important faith in someone rock stable and great in wisdom is a big help in getting through this life Just on proof of God (creator) - for someone new to God, I think Paul nailed it (Romans 1): "... what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." (ESV) Science explains how the creation works (laws of physics), evidence of the brilliance behind the physical universe and how it all exists and is maintained. But science gives no insight into the point or moment of physical creation, or its purpose. Once we start our walk through life by faith (trusting in God, for as much of life's detail as our faith allows), my experience is that through relationship with God, we grow in Knowing him personally and he likely doesn't leave us in any doubt. For me I have general, but also several very specific proofs of God's presence in my life, so my faith is not just based on the miracle and wonders of the creativity we see in creation, but very real and firm proof of God's character and involvement in my life, and of the truth he has revealed to me. In other words, my faith has been proven beyond doubt. Just my experience I don't seem to have a need to have an all wise and powerful person looking out for me I guess. I also am not troubled in the least with why what we see exists. Life for me is what is meaningful. I am okay with not knowing what started everything. We may know it someday and I am good with that. I don't see 'not knowing' as a reason to 'create' a meaning or a purpose for what could very well not have a purpose and is merely a physical existence. I don't need to create meaning beyond what I already am experiencing. I know that people who believe in God believe they have had proof. I hear it a lot. Then I hear the proof they are basing it on and wonder how they think it's proof. For me it wouldn't be. I respect that people who believe just are different from me. They have different standards of what they accept as proof. I have always been open to being wrong. But until I see proof that works for me I have to respect myself and be me. I see no value in pretending to believe when I really don't. And, it's deceitful which I believe the Christian God would not be happy with. I am glad belief brings meaning to people's lives. It just doesn't do that for me.
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Post by snow on Jan 12, 2024 15:54:25 GMT -5
This is a subject that doesn't get talked about much on here. This video really resonated with me because my parents were even more strict than a lot of the friends. The way the friends and workers treated me when I quit professing at 12 years old. Me being belittled by the workers when I asked questions. Being forced to attend meetings until I left home the night I wrote my final exam really was not an easy time for me. I had a year of real loneliness when I quit because I wasn't allowed friends from school and when I quit taking part in meetings I was viewed by many of kids parents as a 'bad influence' and that limited my access to some of the kids that had been my friend. I was told how ungrateful I was. After all my parents had given me everything when they adopted me and this is how I rewarded them. Things like that. I had one woman tell me I was the reason my mother got cancer. Because I was so hard to raise. Most of my relatives did not profess so I was quite upset that they were going to hell, because that's what was taught to me. Things like that told to a child leaves lasting trauma for a long time and I am still struggling with feeling like I have worth. Worthy of being loved etc. Anyway, I know now that a lot of exes suffer from many of the same struggles that I have over their lives so I wanted to start a conversation here if anyone feels they would like to comment. Finding out that the struggles I have had in life are very common has actually been very healing for me. I left 50 years ago and so I never knew anyone that had ever left. It's only been since I found this forum and more recently the ex2x2 site on Face Book that I have had any idea just how similar the trauma is for many of us. Now with the knowledge that the workers who we were supposed to believe were to be respected and almost worshipped in my household anyway, and the CSA. The number of survivors that must be feeling such trauma and betrayal. Thankfully I have worked through a lot of things over the years and have found a good deal of peace in my life. I'm so sorry to you went through that, I can't believe you were told you'll go to hell as a child. Or shunned because you didn't profess especially as it doesn't say in the Bible that we have to profess! Well if you believe that your group is exclusively going to heaven and that being a professing member of that group is the key, it does make sense that anyone that walks away from the 'truth' would be viewed as a possible 'corruption' for their own children who are professing. I wasn't to be trusted to not be a bad influence and then their children would also lose their salvation. When you have a mindset like that, it makes sense. I never really understood why the woman that said I caused my mother's cancer said that. I guess she wanted me to feel guilty and I'm not sure why. But I experienced shaming and guilt from some of the friends and I think it was to make me come back and profess so that my parents would be happy. It's incredibly hard to quit professing and leave when you have parents that believe you are going to hell and they will never see you again when they die. They love you and you know they love you, and their mindset brings them pain. But you can't live a lie. That's just not right either. So over the years I gave them my love and made sure they knew it. I just couldn't be part of their group. I think my mother understood that better than my father. She seemed more at peace with it than him. My parents believed the workers and they preached from the platform that you'd better make the right choice and stand up when the meeting was tested because you could die on your way home from that meeting/convention. There is no misinterpreting what they mean by that. Be a 2x2 or go to hell. That is what I grew up knowing. Quitting professing was the hardest thing I've ever had to do in life so far.
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Post by verna on Jan 12, 2024 15:54:34 GMT -5
Good discussion, thanks Dan and snow. Probably the more crazy we are, the more important faith in someone rock stable and great in wisdom is a big help in getting through this life Just on proof of God (creator) - for someone new to God, I think Paul nailed it (Romans 1): "... what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse." (ESV) Science explains how the creation works (laws of physics), evidence of the brilliance behind the physical universe and how it all exists and is maintained. But science gives no insight into the point or moment of physical creation, or its purpose. Once we start our walk through life by faith (trusting in God, for as much of life's detail as our faith allows), my experience is that through relationship with God, we grow in Knowing him personally and he likely doesn't leave us in any doubt. For me I have general, but also several very specific proofs of God's presence in my life, so my faith is not just based on the miracle and wonders of the creativity we see in creation, but very real and firm proof of God's character and involvement in my life, and of the truth he has revealed to me. In other words, my faith has been proven beyond doubt. Just my experience I don't seem to have a need to have an all wise and powerful person looking out for me I guess. I also am not troubled in the least with why what we see exists. Life for me is what is meaningful. I am okay with not knowing what started everything. We may know it someday and I am good with that. I don't see 'not knowing' as a reason to 'create' a meaning or a purpose for what could very well not have a purpose and is merely a physical existence. I don't need to create meaning beyond what I already am experiencing. I know that people who believe in God believe they have had proof. I hear it a lot. Then I hear the proof they are basing it on and wonder how they think it's proof. For me it wouldn't be. I respect that people who believe just are different from me. They have different standards of what they accept as proof. I have always been open to being wrong. But until I see proof that works for me I have to respect myself and be me. I see no value in pretending to believe when I really don't. And, it's deceitful which I believe the Christian God would not be happy with. I am glad belief brings meaning to people's lives. It just doesn't do that for me. For the most part snow I agree with you. But I’ve been doing a bit of an experiment lately in an effort to understand what the heck people are talking about when they talk about God. So when something good happens - something that is a bit remarkable - maybe serendipitous- I have been calling it God. I think - “maybe this is God - or Jesus”. Actually I’ve been kind of enjoying it. It is helping me to be a little more aware and to “mark” the glimmers. I still don’t believe in God but maybe respecting story/fantasy. Does that make any sense? Of course I’m sure believers will say - “no that’s not it”.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 16:09:17 GMT -5
Do you also say that in Luke 16:19-31 there is nothing in these verses that is about hell? "19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
It's a parable, not literal, Jesus said that he only ever spoke in parables and he was speaking to the pharasees, so it's a parable. He only ever revealed the meaning of the parables he spoke to his disciples. Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Nope, every time at the beginning of a story if it's a parable it was said it was...Luke 16...does not say parable anywhere...true story...almost all churches I've had contact with or listened too online or searched online agree... true story... There are a couple more reasons too...you should study it further to know those other reasons... Matt 13 was to the multitude in that chapter standing in front of him not any other...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 16:10:57 GMT -5
The lake of fire holds hell at end. There is no lake of fire now, it comes later of course its hell...literalism only will lead many astray most of the time...hell and the lake very real.... Hell is separation from God. Yes, and it has a real location. No one knows where that is just like no one knows where heaven is located at this time. All we know is up or down...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 16:12:37 GMT -5
You're probably right Dan. I know that for part of my life I did believe there was a higher power, but it wasn't the Christian God. It was an entity that I was a part of and was about love etc. My journey took me to a place where I just couldn't believe in that anymore either. I realized that I was believing in something that I had to have faith in to believe it and I realized that for me that didn't make sense anymore. Why would I have faith to believe something I had no evidence of? It just didn't resonate for me anymore.
If there were proof of God in the form of tangible objective evidence, we wouldn't need to believe or have faith.. The real question is; Why does God require us to come by faith? Faith is really just trust, you can't be obedient to someone you don't trust. Satan and company didn't need faith and yet they rebelled against God, so knowing something for certain does not guarantee obedience. Most people wouldn't marry an unfaithful spouse, likewise God has no desire to save people He can't trust and may rebel against Him again. Jesus proved his love for us, now its our turn to demonstrate who we're loyal to.. As he told many whom he healed, "Thy faith hath made thee whole". Its by faith that Enoch and others pleased God.
Well said brother...
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Post by xna on Jan 12, 2024 16:26:28 GMT -5
So when something good happens - something that is a bit remarkable - maybe serendipitous- I have been calling it God. I think - “maybe this is God - or Jesus”. I more often hear people calling out Jesus when something bad happens like, hitting your thumb instead of the nail head.
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Post by Admin on Jan 12, 2024 16:59:08 GMT -5
So when something good happens - something that is a bit remarkable - maybe serendipitous- I have been calling it God. I think - “maybe this is God - or Jesus”. I more often hear people calling out Jesus when something bad happens like, hitting your thumb instead of the nail head. (or OMG when something astonishing or amazing happens ) And verna's right, her 'experiment' is totally not it!
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Post by verna on Jan 12, 2024 17:43:26 GMT -5
I more often hear people calling out Jesus when something bad happens like, hitting your thumb instead of the nail head. (or OMG when something astonishing or amazing happens ) And verna's right, her 'experiment' is totally not it! Hmm. You sound dismissive of my experience Admin. How can you be so sure? Do you not think God can be experienced in our life/world? I am expected to believe but when I do my best with my limited ability, apparently I am wrong? I ask sincerely. My experience as a result of my experiment rated right up there with some of the most uplifting experiences I have had in my life. I really think I might be into something. I believe that if there is a God I should be able to experience him/it in the here and now. Do you not believe this?
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Post by maryhig on Jan 12, 2024 18:17:11 GMT -5
It's a parable, not literal, Jesus said that he only ever spoke in parables and he was speaking to the pharasees, so it's a parable. He only ever revealed the meaning of the parables he spoke to his disciples. Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. Nope, every time at the beginning of a story if it's a parable it was said it was...Luke 16...does not say parable anywhere...true story...almost all churches I've had contact with or listened too online or searched online agree... true story... There are a couple more reasons too...you should study it further to know those other reasons... Matt 13 was to the multitude in that chapter standing in front of him not any other... Jesus spoke in parables to the Pharasees. Sorry Wally but I believe it's a parable. We'll have to agree to disagree on that.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 12, 2024 18:32:30 GMT -5
(or OMG when something astonishing or amazing happens ) And verna's right, her 'experiment' is totally not it! Hmm. You sound dismissive of my experience Admin. How can you be so sure? Do you not think God can be experienced in our life/world? I am expected to believe but when I do my best with my limited ability, apparently I am wrong? I ask sincerely. My experience as a result of my experiment rated right up there with some of the most uplifting experiences I have had in my life. I really think I might be into something. I believe that if there is a God I should be able to experience him/it in the here and now. Do you not believe this? To my mind, limited only by my ability to express it, God can only be experienced, not articulated. In the here and now. Right here and right now, as much as you are able to let go of thoughts of the future and of the past, and thoughts of yourself and of others. It is a place of stillness and quiet confidence, that surprisingly aligns with so much of what you have ever truly “known”. Trust what feels right and true for you.
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Post by Admin on Jan 12, 2024 18:39:02 GMT -5
It is helping me to be a little more aware and to “mark” the glimmers. I still don’t believe in God but maybe respecting story/fantasy. Does that make any sense? Of course I’m sure believers will say - “no that’s not it”. Sorry verna, I was responding flippantly to that last bit of yours, "I'm sure believers will say - “no that’s not it”." (humor, even flippancy, can get lost on social media - lesson to self!) You said: Do you not think God can be experienced in our life/world? I am expected to believe but when I do my best with my limited ability, apparently I am wrong? I ask sincerely. My experience as a result of my experiment rated right up there with some of the most uplifting experiences I have had in my life. I really think I might be into something. I believe that if there is a God I should be able to experience him/it in the here and now. Do you not believe this?Now that's serious stuff, and definitely not deserving of my flippancy! Some serious responses from me (noting I'm not a fount of all wisdom - not even a font of much wisdom, most of the time ) Do you not think God can be experienced in our life/world?Totally, in fact as I've grown older I'm very much inclined to the view that we can find/discover most about God from life - just living in this world, this amazing creation, even things like xna's portend of a total solar eclipse, on April 8, 2024 (let's see if he's right, my silly humor again ) In fact, and this may be heresy - I would suggest you are likely to discover God and way more about him from what you suggest, than from sitting in a whole course of many of the F&W gospel meetings through 2024 - quelle horreur!! In some ways, man's interpretations of scripture, and traditions built up on that over hundreds of years, is probably as much misleading in terms of knowing and experiencing God, as helpful (at least to some of us). In Romans ch.2, Paul wrote something similar I think (referring to the Jews who knew the OT scriptures, compared with Gentiles who at that time had no bible): Romans 2:14-15 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)You also said: "My experience as a result of my experiment rated right up there with some of the most uplifting experiences I have had in my life. I really think I might be into something. I believe that if there is a God I should be able to experience him/it in the here and now."I remember a day in my life when I would have written the exact same words about that day and its experiences (nothing super special to anybody else, but I experienced something very special, definitely God there with me, a deeper joy, peace than anything ever before). From there, many long years have passed and deeper experiences but the same spiritual person who I could really (and that's "really" in the sense it's real and not needing any further proof of that reality) have in my life as friend/creator/father. It transcends words, which somehow don't do the reality justice. "Do you not believe this?"Yes, I definitely believe it and feel that it's been my real experience. Thanks!
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Post by maryhig on Jan 12, 2024 18:40:35 GMT -5
I'm so sorry to you went through that, I can't believe you were told you'll go to hell as a child. Or shunned because you didn't profess especially as it doesn't say in the Bible that we have to profess! Well if you believe that your group is exclusively going to heaven and that being a professing member of that group is the key, it does make sense that anyone that walks away from the 'truth' would be viewed as a possible 'corruption' for their own children who are professing. I wasn't to be trusted to not be a bad influence and then their children would also lose their salvation. When you have a mindset like that, it makes sense. I never really understood why the woman that said I caused my mother's cancer said that. I guess she wanted me to feel guilty and I'm not sure why. But I experienced shaming and guilt from some of the friends and I think it was to make me come back and profess so that my parents would be happy. It's incredibly hard to quit professing and leave when you have parents that believe you are going to hell and they will never see you again when they die. They love you and you know they love you, and their mindset brings them pain. But you can't live a lie. That's just not right either. So over the years I gave them my love and made sure they knew it. I just couldn't be part of their group. I think my mother understood that better than my father. She seemed more at peace with it than him. My parents believed the workers and they preached from the platform that you'd better make the right choice and stand up when the meeting was tested because you could die on your way home from that meeting/convention. There is no misinterpreting what they mean by that. Be a 2x2 or go to hell. That is what I grew up knowing. Quitting professing was the hardest thing I've ever had to do in life so far. I can't believe that woman said that you caused your mum to have cancer. No you never, never ever listen to that, that's awful! Imagine judging a child like that, that's unbelievable! Also, I'm always amazed when people judge others in a way that they say "if they don't believe as we do they are going to hell" etc. i.e. as you put it, you have to be a 2x2 or go to hell. What about this, you have a 2x2 worker sexually abusing children, hiding it and looking like the perfect godly man outside in a lovely suit and talking the talk. Then, you have a rough and ready person but they're not a 2x2, with a heart of gold, who would help anyone and wouldn't hurt anybody, and they share what they have and truly care for others around them having a soft loving heart and they love God. How would people with that mindset that you have spoken about, judge here? They would judge the worker as the one going to heaven and the outsider (without knowing them) as the one going to hell. But I wonder who would really be the one going to hell as they put it? We judge outwardly, but God looks at the heart.
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Post by xna on Jan 12, 2024 19:06:25 GMT -5
... even things like xna 's portend of a total solar eclipse, on April 8, 2024 (let's see if he's right, my silly humor again ) I traveled about 7,000 miles to see the last total solar eclipse in the USA. I didn't have high expectations as I had seen partial solar eclipses before, but seeing a total solar eclipse was a whole different level. It was one of the most amazing sites I have ever seen. No video or photo does it justice. If you have opportunity I would highly recommend it. If you are religious, odds are it will be a very religious experience for you. science.nasa.gov/eclipses/future-eclipses/eclipse-2024/where-when/youtu.be/cxrLRbkOwKs?si=5PEjhXcpNiklBQrz
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Post by verna on Jan 12, 2024 22:14:09 GMT -5
It is helping me to be a little more aware and to “mark” the glimmers. I still don’t believe in God but maybe respecting story/fantasy. Does that make any sense? Of course I’m sure believers will say - “no that’s not it”. Sorry verna, I was responding flippantly to that last bit of yours, "I'm sure believers will say - “no that’s not it”." (humor, even flippancy, can get lost on social media - lesson to self!) You said: Do you not think God can be experienced in our life/world? I am expected to believe but when I do my best with my limited ability, apparently I am wrong? I ask sincerely. My experience as a result of my experiment rated right up there with some of the most uplifting experiences I have had in my life. I really think I might be into something. I believe that if there is a God I should be able to experience him/it in the here and now. Do you not believe this?Now that's serious stuff, and definitely not deserving of my flippancy! Some serious responses from me (noting I'm not a fount of all wisdom - not even a font of much wisdom, most of the time ) Do you not think God can be experienced in our life/world?Totally, in fact as I've grown older I'm very much inclined to the view that we can find/discover most about God from life - just living in this world, this amazing creation, even things like xna's portend of a total solar eclipse, on April 8, 2024 (let's see if he's right, my silly humor again ) In fact, and this may be heresy - I would suggest you are likely to discover God and way more about him from what you suggest, than from sitting in a whole course of many of the F&W gospel meetings through 2024 - quelle horreur!! In some ways, man's interpretations of scripture, and traditions built up on that over hundreds of years, is probably as much misleading in terms of knowing and experiencing God, as helpful (at least to some of us). In Romans ch.2, Paul wrote something similar I think (referring to the Jews who knew the OT scriptures, compared with Gentiles who at that time had no bible): Romans 2:14-15 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)You also said: "My experience as a result of my experiment rated right up there with some of the most uplifting experiences I have had in my life. I really think I might be into something. I believe that if there is a God I should be able to experience him/it in the here and now."I remember a day in my life when I would have written the exact same words about that day and its experiences (nothing super special to anybody else, but I experienced something very special, definitely God there with me, a deeper joy, peace than anything ever before). From there, many long years have passed and deeper experiences but the same spiritual person who I could really (and that's "really" in the sense it's real and not needing any further proof of that reality) have in my life as friend/creator/father. It transcends words, which somehow don't do the reality justice. "Do you not believe this?"Yes, I definitely believe it and feel that it's been my real experience. Thanks! Thanks admin. I respect you and I was disappointed that you were dismissive. But I realize my post may have come across as flippant. You have redeemed yourself with your thoughtful response
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Post by maryhig on Jan 13, 2024 4:26:34 GMT -5
(or OMG when something astonishing or amazing happens ) And verna's right, her 'experiment' is totally not it! Hmm. You sound dismissive of my experience Admin. How can you be so sure? Do you not think God can be experienced in our life/world? I am expected to believe but when I do my best with my limited ability, apparently I am wrong? I ask sincerely. My experience as a result of my experiment rated right up there with some of the most uplifting experiences I have had in my life. I really think I might be into something. I believe that if there is a God I should be able to experience him/it in the here and now. Do you not believe this? hi Verna, yes God can most definitely be experienced in this lifetime, I don't think that seeing God as a fantasy or fairytale is right though. But he is everywhere around us and there are signs everywhere if we have the eyes to see. My uncle was an atheist, and he told me that when he heard a man called Malcolm Hall (a man from Edward Cooneys meetings) preaching in the city of Belfast, something Malcolm said touched him and he wanted to know if God was there. So that night he decided to pray hard and with sincerity, and he said "I don't know who you are, or what you are, or where you are, but IF you are, I want to know" and he said that prayer changed his life forever. God is there, he gives us signs everywhere Jesus was able to use nature in his parables to describe the things of God. Just like when people see the sun, they just see a big ball of fire, but it's also a picture of God, burning bright, giving off light and warmth and bringing us life. There are pictures of God everywhere, when Jesus talks of rivers of living water, he isn't speaking about natural water but the Holy Spirit, and why did Jesus use water as an example of the Holy spirit? Because water keeps us living, it refreshes us, it cleanses us inside and out, washing us to take the dirt away and Spiritually this is what the holy spirit does when he resides in our heart, he cleanses us inside and out and washes the dirt (sin) within our hearts away as we drink (take in) of the living water (the word of God through the spirit) and then live it out. Then there's light, what does light do? It takes us out of darkness and opens our eyes to everything, when God said let there be light, this is what that means. It's the understanding of God, bringing us out of the darkness where we can't see anything, where we are blind to him, into his light. Showing us that he's there and opening our understanding. But this can only happen when we truly seek him and start to do what's right in our lives, and obey his word. Once we turn to him and start to turn from doing wrong and listen to our conscience then God will open our eyes, and just like a light switching on in a dark room, we will see. God is there Verna, I have no doubt whatsoever, and seeking is good because Jesus says seek and you shall find. But as you seek do, do what's right before God, if you see someone in need help, and share, even if you only have a little yourself still share when you can. Care, it might not be money or material things, it might be when you see someone who just needs you to talk with them, be there for them. And even for those who don't like you, you still do what's right for them regardless of what they think of you as this is right before God. And maybe pray and ask God for a sign or just sincerely ask if he's there. You may already do these things and if so, I'm sure that God will have his eye on you. But one thing is for sure I know he's there and I have complete faith in him. And I hope you find him too x
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Post by snow on Jan 13, 2024 12:48:18 GMT -5
Hmm. You sound dismissive of my experience Admin. How can you be so sure? Do you not think God can be experienced in our life/world? I am expected to believe but when I do my best with my limited ability, apparently I am wrong? I ask sincerely. My experience as a result of my experiment rated right up there with some of the most uplifting experiences I have had in my life. I really think I might be into something. I believe that if there is a God I should be able to experience him/it in the here and now. Do you not believe this? To my mind, limited only by my ability to express it, God can only be experienced, not articulated. In the here and now. Right here and right now, as much as you are able to let go of thoughts of the future and of the past, and thoughts of yourself and of others. It is a place of stillness and quiet confidence, that surprisingly aligns with so much of what you have ever truly “known”. Trust what feels right and true for you. I was taught how to meditate and self hypnosis to try and manage pain after my back surgery. I found them very helpful and have continued now for almost 24 years. When you are meditating your world does get smaller and there is a place where it's very peaceful. I have learned to trust what works for me and that has helped me.
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Post by snow on Jan 13, 2024 12:58:26 GMT -5
Well if you believe that your group is exclusively going to heaven and that being a professing member of that group is the key, it does make sense that anyone that walks away from the 'truth' would be viewed as a possible 'corruption' for their own children who are professing. I wasn't to be trusted to not be a bad influence and then their children would also lose their salvation. When you have a mindset like that, it makes sense. I never really understood why the woman that said I caused my mother's cancer said that. I guess she wanted me to feel guilty and I'm not sure why. But I experienced shaming and guilt from some of the friends and I think it was to make me come back and profess so that my parents would be happy. It's incredibly hard to quit professing and leave when you have parents that believe you are going to hell and they will never see you again when they die. They love you and you know they love you, and their mindset brings them pain. But you can't live a lie. That's just not right either. So over the years I gave them my love and made sure they knew it. I just couldn't be part of their group. I think my mother understood that better than my father. She seemed more at peace with it than him. My parents believed the workers and they preached from the platform that you'd better make the right choice and stand up when the meeting was tested because you could die on your way home from that meeting/convention. There is no misinterpreting what they mean by that. Be a 2x2 or go to hell. That is what I grew up knowing. Quitting professing was the hardest thing I've ever had to do in life so far. I can't believe that woman said that you caused your mum to have cancer. No you never, never ever listen to that, that's awful! Imagine judging a child like that, that's unbelievable! Also, I'm always amazed when people judge others in a way that they say "if they don't believe as we do they are going to hell" etc. i.e. as you put it, you have to be a 2x2 or go to hell. What about this, you have a 2x2 worker sexually abusing children, hiding it and looking like the perfect godly man outside in a lovely suit and talking the talk. Then, you have a rough and ready person but they're not a 2x2, with a heart of gold, who would help anyone and wouldn't hurt anybody, and they share what they have and truly care for others around them having a soft loving heart and they love God. How would people with that mindset that you have spoken about, judge here? They would judge the worker as the one going to heaven and the outsider (without knowing them) as the one going to hell. But I wonder who would really be the one going to hell as they put it? We judge outwardly, but God looks at the heart. I think the one thing we know for sure is that we really don't know for sure. Much of it is a mystery that we try to interpret to the best of our abilities. That's why I am open to other's beliefs I guess. I don't know why she said it. Maybe she truly believed that what my mother was going through was caused by me and she wanted me to suffer some too? I don't know. I can still remember the look on my husband's face when she said that to me. He was so shocked, both of us were. It felt so bad that I felt like I was going to pass out. I knew my not professing hurt them so I also at that stage in life felt she might be right because of that. But I also knew on a logical level that I was not to blame for the drugs her doctor gave her to manage her menopause. When we had visited with my mom and left I just broke down and cried and cried. My poor husband didn't know what to do or even say. He just kept saying 'I can't believe anyone would say that to someone'. I never told my mother what she said. It would have upset her horribly.
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Post by snow on Jan 13, 2024 13:04:55 GMT -5
... even things like xna 's portend of a total solar eclipse, on April 8, 2024 (let's see if he's right, my silly humor again ) I traveled about 7,000 miles to see the last total solar eclipse in the USA. I didn't have high expectations as I had seen partial solar eclipses before, but seeing a total solar eclipse was a whole different level. It was one of the most amazing sites I have ever seen. No video or photo does it justice. If you have opportunity I would highly recommend it. If you are religious, odds are it will be a very religious experience for you. science.nasa.gov/eclipses/future-eclipses/eclipse-2024/where-when/youtu.be/cxrLRbkOwKs?si=5PEjhXcpNiklBQrz Canada's last total solar eclipse was in 1979 and best experienced in Manitoba. I was in Montana working with an oil company surveying and we got a pretty good experience too, but not as good as it would have been if I was still in Manitoba. It's pretty amazing even from where I was at the time. Out in the middle of the prairie in a very rural area. Our next one is supposed to be in August 2044 best seen in Alberta BC and the territories. Not sure I will make it to the next one. I will be 88 years old.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 13, 2024 20:20:31 GMT -5
I traveled about 7,000 miles to see the last total solar eclipse in the USA. I didn't have high expectations as I had seen partial solar eclipses before, but seeing a total solar eclipse was a whole different level. It was one of the most amazing sites I have ever seen. No video or photo does it justice. If you have opportunity I would highly recommend it. If you are religious, odds are it will be a very religious experience for you. science.nasa.gov/eclipses/future-eclipses/eclipse-2024/where-when/youtu.be/cxrLRbkOwKs?si=5PEjhXcpNiklBQrz Canada's last total solar eclipse was in 1979 and best experienced in Manitoba. I was in Montana working with an oil company surveying and we got a pretty good experience too, but not as good as it would have been if I was still in Manitoba. It's pretty amazing even from where I was at the time. Out in the middle of the prairie in a very rural area. Our next one is supposed to be in August 2044 best seen in Alberta BC and the territories. Not sure I will make it to the next one. I will be 88 years old. I was in Winnipeg, MB for the 1979 one. I was in an Advanced Plant Breeding class, and the Prof unexpectedly took us all outside for the event. I was too young and too stupid to truly appreciate it. I thought it was neat, but I was more worried about upcoming exams than the once-in-a-lifetime event unfolding in front of me.
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Post by xna on Jan 13, 2024 21:01:11 GMT -5
Canada's last total solar eclipse was in 1979 and best experienced in Manitoba. I was in Montana working with an oil company surveying and we got a pretty good experience too, but not as good as it would have been if I was still in Manitoba. It's pretty amazing even from where I was at the time. Out in the middle of the prairie in a very rural area. Our next one is supposed to be in August 2044 best seen in Alberta BC and the territories. Not sure I will make it to the next one. I will be 88 years old. I was in Winnipeg, MB for the 1979 one. I was in an Advanced Plant Breeding class, and the Prof unexpectedly took us all outside for the event.
I was too young and too stupid to truly appreciate it. I thought it was neat, but I was more worried about upcoming exams than the once-in-a-lifetime event unfolding in front of me.During a total eclipse of the sun you see only the suns corona, it's primarily composed of plasma. This plasma is white agains at dark black sky where you can see the stars. The Sun's corona is much larger than the diameter of the Sun itself. The corona extends millions of kilometers into space. It's quite a show.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 13, 2024 21:04:31 GMT -5
I traveled about 7,000 miles to see the last total solar eclipse in the USA. I didn't have high expectations as I had seen partial solar eclipses before, but seeing a total solar eclipse was a whole different level. It was one of the most amazing sites I have ever seen. No video or photo does it justice. If you have opportunity I would highly recommend it. If you are religious, odds are it will be a very religious experience for you. science.nasa.gov/eclipses/future-eclipses/eclipse-2024/where-when/youtu.be/cxrLRbkOwKs?si=5PEjhXcpNiklBQrz Canada's last total solar eclipse was in 1979 and best experienced in Manitoba. I was in Montana working with an oil company surveying and we got a pretty good experience too, but not as good as it would have been if I was still in Manitoba. It's pretty amazing even from where I was at the time. Out in the middle of the prairie in a very rural area. Our next one is supposed to be in August 2044 best seen in Alberta BC and the territories. Not sure I will make it to the next one. I will be 88 years old. I have seen two total eclipses. One I knew about and prepared for by buying some funny looking cellophane screens. I held one in front of my eyes and could watch the eclipse. The other was weird. I did not realize it was going to happen and was in the head a very remote west coast river in the South Island. We had just summited a couple of peaks after the usual midnight start and were downclimbing the last long steep slope to camp in mid afternoon. We were enveloped in thick mist or cloud. Downclimbing involves facing into the slope and repetitive kick kick with feet and then smack the axes in and repeat endlessly. A high degree of concentration is required if you want to stay alive. We were unroped. About halfway down I noticed it had become quite dark and was thinking that the afternoon had flown by unexpectedly fast. However my companion called over that it was an eclipse and she managed to take a few photos of it due to the thick mist. I had run out of battery power for my camera which was exasperating but I have been kindly given some photos of it. The maximum a solar eclipse can last is around eight minutes. I will see if I can post some photos of it if I can work out how.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jan 13, 2024 21:05:57 GMT -5
Canada's last total solar eclipse was in 1979 and best experienced in Manitoba. I was in Montana working with an oil company surveying and we got a pretty good experience too, but not as good as it would have been if I was still in Manitoba. It's pretty amazing even from where I was at the time. Out in the middle of the prairie in a very rural area. Our next one is supposed to be in August 2044 best seen in Alberta BC and the territories. Not sure I will make it to the next one. I will be 88 years old. I was in Winnipeg, MB for the 1979 one. I was in an Advanced Plant Breeding class, and the Prof unexpectedly took us all outside for the event. I was too young and too stupid to truly appreciate it. I thought it was neat, but I was more worried about upcoming exams than the once-in-a-lifetime event unfolding in front of me. What kind of plant breeding where you involved in? I have an interest in conifer breeding. Specifically Pinus Radiata.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jan 14, 2024 12:13:35 GMT -5
I was in Winnipeg, MB for the 1979 one. I was in an Advanced Plant Breeding class, and the Prof unexpectedly took us all outside for the event. I was too young and too stupid to truly appreciate it. I thought it was neat, but I was more worried about upcoming exams than the once-in-a-lifetime event unfolding in front of me. What kind of plant breeding where you involved in? I have an interest in conifer breeding. Specifically Pinus Radiata. The educational institution I attended was heavily involved in breeding canola and cereal crops. As an undergrad summer student/technician, I was somewhat involved in projects breeding tomatoes and Potentilla fruticans. I did not follow this as a career path, when I gained an understanding of the number of years that it typically took to show results and as other opportunities arose.
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Post by fixit on Jan 14, 2024 12:54:26 GMT -5
Hell is separation from God. Yes, and it has a real location. No one knows where that is just like no one knows where heaven is located at this time. All we know is up or down... Check with Nathan.
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Post by snow on Jan 14, 2024 13:40:47 GMT -5
Canada's last total solar eclipse was in 1979 and best experienced in Manitoba. I was in Montana working with an oil company surveying and we got a pretty good experience too, but not as good as it would have been if I was still in Manitoba. It's pretty amazing even from where I was at the time. Out in the middle of the prairie in a very rural area. Our next one is supposed to be in August 2044 best seen in Alberta BC and the territories. Not sure I will make it to the next one. I will be 88 years old. I have seen two total eclipses. One I knew about and prepared for by buying some funny looking cellophane screens. I held one in front of my eyes and could watch the eclipse. The other was weird. I did not realize it was going to happen and was in the head a very remote west coast river in the South Island. We had just summited a couple of peaks after the usual midnight start and were downclimbing the last long steep slope to camp in mid afternoon. We were enveloped in thick mist or cloud. Downclimbing involves facing into the slope and repetitive kick kick with feet and then smack the axes in and repeat endlessly. A high degree of concentration is required if you want to stay alive. We were unroped. About halfway down I noticed it had become quite dark and was thinking that the afternoon had flown by unexpectedly fast. However my companion called over that it was an eclipse and she managed to take a few photos of it due to the thick mist. I had run out of battery power for my camera which was exasperating but I have been kindly given some photos of it. The maximum a solar eclipse can last is around eight minutes. I will see if I can post some photos of it if I can work out how. Wow that would be quite the experience. I saw the 1979 one but not in Manitoba. A couple of states to the west of it but it still was pretty amazing. Like Sharon I was young and while I thought it was pretty amazing, I was out in the middle of a field trying to work.
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