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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 3, 2023 1:45:06 GMT -5
Well, I guess most Jews are confused as well. Pretty sure Jesus knew they were too... I'm sure you are.
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Post by Annan on Sept 3, 2023 5:54:20 GMT -5
That's what my sister said about her decision to stand up. Surprisingly my parents were upset that "the workers will be coming around again". My sister realized she was simply overcome with emotion. My parents made sure the workers knew that and stopped them in their tracks. I got a lot of mixed messages growing up. Wow yes I can see that. Upset their child professed yet I imagine you were also told it was the only way to be saved at the same time? No. My father did not believe that the 2x2's were the only way to heaven. He did believe (until admitted otherwise from a worker when questioned) that the 2x2's were the continuation of "the shores of Galilee".
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Post by mountain on Sept 3, 2023 17:34:23 GMT -5
Yes, the afterlife for law abiding Jews. No one else. Just dead and gone. Nope, study better... We have to thank Wally for pointing out that once Jesus died on the cross, he yielded up his ghost or spirit. The story of Lazarus and the rich man shows us what happens to the spirit or ghost at that time. It is taken to Abraham's bosom or is confined on the opposite side of the gulf. The life of the body is in the spirit or ghost which God originally breathed into man. It is the life or being. The body is just a temporal shell. It dies whilst the spirit or ghost lives on in another world. The resurrection of Jesus was followed by the resurrection of many of his dead followers in Jerusalem who went and showed themselves to many people. They were reunited with their 'sleeping' bodies for a purpose and time. Call it separation of eternal spirit or being from the temporal body, or whatever you like, but at the point of death the ghost or spirit goes back to the Father who gave it to await the resurrection body given at Jesus's second coming. Wally has laboured hard to bring these facts to us. He unwaveringly warns us about consuming the taste of male tea leaves. Matthew 27 KJV 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.Matthew 27 NIV 50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
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Post by chuck on Sept 4, 2023 1:26:35 GMT -5
We have to thank Wally for pointing out that once Jesus died on the cross, he yielded up his ghost or spirit. The story of Lazarus and the rich man shows us what happens to the spirit or ghost at that time. It is taken to Abraham's bosom or is confined on the opposite side of the gulf. The life of the body is in the spirit or ghost which God originally breathed into man. It is the life or being. The body is just a temporal shell. It dies whilst the spirit or ghost lives on in another world. The resurrection of Jesus was followed by the resurrection of many of his dead followers in Jerusalem who went and showed themselves to many people. They were reunited with their 'sleeping' bodies for a purpose and time. Call it separation of eternal spirit or being from the temporal body, or whatever you like, but at the point of death the ghost or spirit goes back to the Father who gave it to await the resurrection body given at Jesus's second coming. Wally has laboured hard to bring these facts to us. He unwaveringly warns us about consuming the taste of male tea leaves. Matthew 27 KJV 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.Matthew 27 NIV 50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.You are loading Hebrew concepts with Greek philosophy. Jesus was a Jew, his bible was the Tanakh, The Hebrew Bible does not support your Greek philosophical views beyond death. It is wilful ignorance to not at least try to understand what the ancient Hebrews thought prior to Greek philosophy infiltrating the scene. It is also wilful ignorance to not understand what Greek philosophy intoduced to the story so you can see why you would garner such ideas from reading the translation into English text.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2023 2:51:27 GMT -5
We have to thank Wally for pointing out that once Jesus died on the cross, he yielded up his ghost or spirit. The story of Lazarus and the rich man shows us what happens to the spirit or ghost at that time. It is taken to Abraham's bosom or is confined on the opposite side of the gulf. The life of the body is in the spirit or ghost which God originally breathed into man. It is the life or being. The body is just a temporal shell. It dies whilst the spirit or ghost lives on in another world. The resurrection of Jesus was followed by the resurrection of many of his dead followers in Jerusalem who went and showed themselves to many people. They were reunited with their 'sleeping' bodies for a purpose and time. Call it separation of eternal spirit or being from the temporal body, or whatever you like, but at the point of death the ghost or spirit goes back to the Father who gave it to await the resurrection body given at Jesus's second coming. Wally has laboured hard to bring these facts to us. He unwaveringly warns us about consuming the taste of male tea leaves. Matthew 27 KJV 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.Matthew 27 NIV 50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.You are loading Hebrew concepts with Greek philosophy. Jesus was a Jew, his bible was the Tanakh, The Hebrew Bible does not support your Greek philosophical views beyond death. It is wilful ignorance to not at least try to understand what the ancient Hebrews thought prior to Greek philosophy infiltrating the scene. It is also wilful ignorance to not understand what Greek philosophy intoduced to the story so you can see why you would garner such ideas from reading the translation into English text. Delusional and confused assessment...not surprised...
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Post by chuck on Sept 4, 2023 4:15:42 GMT -5
You are loading Hebrew concepts with Greek philosophy. Jesus was a Jew, his bible was the Tanakh, The Hebrew Bible does not support your Greek philosophical views beyond death. It is wilful ignorance to not at least try to understand what the ancient Hebrews thought prior to Greek philosophy infiltrating the scene. It is also wilful ignorance to not understand what Greek philosophy intoduced to the story so you can see why you would garner such ideas from reading the translation into English text. Delusional and confused assessment...not surprised... The Greek philosophy doesn't change before or after your attempts to insult me Greek philosophy is still the soul is immaterial regardless of the status of the physical body. The Hebrew philosophy was the soul is alive when the body is alive and dead or doesn't exist when the body is dead. You just return to dust. That is how soul is used in the Hebrew bible. Jesus was a Hebrew. Jesus most definitely though there was going to be a Ressurection of the dead, but there is no evidence Hebrew people had changed their ideas of the soul. Currently yourself and Mountain have a hybrid philosophy of both Greek and Hebrew ideas mashed together. Plenty of things confuse me but I have found reading about them helps. Not reading about them and calling people names doesn't.....
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Post by mountain on Sept 4, 2023 8:00:02 GMT -5
We have to thank Wally for pointing out that once Jesus died on the cross, he yielded up his ghost or spirit. The story of Lazarus and the rich man shows us what happens to the spirit or ghost at that time. It is taken to Abraham's bosom or is confined on the opposite side of the gulf. The life of the body is in the spirit or ghost which God originally breathed into man. It is the life or being. The body is just a temporal shell. It dies whilst the spirit or ghost lives on in another world. The resurrection of Jesus was followed by the resurrection of many of his dead followers in Jerusalem who went and showed themselves to many people. They were reunited with their 'sleeping' bodies for a purpose and time. Call it separation of eternal spirit or being from the temporal body, or whatever you like, but at the point of death the ghost or spirit goes back to the Father who gave it to await the resurrection body given at Jesus's second coming. Wally has laboured hard to bring these facts to us. He unwaveringly warns us about consuming the taste of male tea leaves. Matthew 27 KJV 50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.Matthew 27 NIV 50 And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. 51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53 They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.You are loading Hebrew concepts with Greek philosophy. Jesus was a Jew, his bible was the Tanakh, The Hebrew Bible does not support your Greek philosophical views beyond death. It is wilful ignorance to not at least try to understand what the ancient Hebrews thought prior to Greek philosophy infiltrating the scene. It is also wilful ignorance to not understand what Greek philosophy intoduced to the story so you can see why you would garner such ideas from reading the translation into English text. If what you are saying is correct then putting the words of Jesus before 'apparent' ancient hebraic thoughts is a grievous error? Out goes my King James' Bible and in comes a large cup of male tea leaves!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2023 8:48:46 GMT -5
Delusional and confused assessment...not surprised... The Greek philosophy doesn't change before or after your attempts to insult me Greek philosophy is still the soul is immaterial regardless of the status of the physical body. The Hebrew philosophy was the soul is alive when the body is alive and dead or doesn't exist when the body is dead. You just return to dust. That is how soul is used in the Hebrew bible. Jesus was a Hebrew. Jesus most definitely though there was going to be a Ressurection of the dead, but there is no evidence Hebrew people had changed their ideas of the soul. Currently yourself and Mountain have a hybrid philosophy of both Greek and Hebrew ideas mashed together. Plenty of things confuse me but I have found reading about them helps. Not reading about them and calling people names doesn't..... That would be incorrect as usual...
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Post by snow on Sept 4, 2023 13:38:23 GMT -5
Jesus was a Hebrew. He never read the bible, it wasn't around and he never contributed anything to it in the 1st person. Everything attributed to Jesus' words is hearsay. Translated and rewritten to fit the cultural understanding of the person writing it.
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Post by chuck on Sept 4, 2023 17:26:06 GMT -5
You are loading Hebrew concepts with Greek philosophy. Jesus was a Jew, his bible was the Tanakh, The Hebrew Bible does not support your Greek philosophical views beyond death. It is wilful ignorance to not at least try to understand what the ancient Hebrews thought prior to Greek philosophy infiltrating the scene. It is also wilful ignorance to not understand what Greek philosophy intoduced to the story so you can see why you would garner such ideas from reading the translation into English text. If what you are saying is correct then putting the words of Jesus before 'apparent' ancient hebraic thoughts is a grievous error? Out goes my King James' Bible and in comes a large cup of male tea leaves! Jesus world view came from ancient Hebraic thought, if you want to have some idea on what he may have said you start there, not at King James and go back and apply collectively the western religious baggage that has been collected along the way and erroneouspy placed onto the world view of a 1st century Hebrew.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2023 17:53:22 GMT -5
Jesus was a Hebrew. He never read the bible, it wasn't around and he never contributed anything to it in the 1st person. Everything attributed to Jesus' words is hearsay. Translated and rewritten to fit the cultural understanding of the person writing it. Thats not how it generally goes with testimonies...
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Post by mountain on Sept 5, 2023 3:18:57 GMT -5
If what you are saying is correct then putting the words of Jesus before 'apparent' ancient hebraic thoughts is a grievous error? Out goes my King James' Bible and in comes a large cup of male tea leaves! Jesus world view came from ancient Hebraic thought, if you want to have some idea on what he may have said you start there, not at King James and go back and apply collectively the western religious baggage that has been collected along the way and erroneouspy placed onto the world view of a 1st century Hebrew. I will ignore the fact that others are shaking their head and uttering with a heavy breath.... 'thank goodness for Wally!'So we ignore the KJV and by default every other translation of the Bible since and seek out ideas of what Jesus really meant from ancient Hebraic thought? That's a very interesting concept. If I go down that route it will be akin to trying the National Lottery! Anyway, Wally gives us a more stable answer, at least for those who do not discard the Bible as a source of instruction. Mark 16 - KJV 1 4 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/b] Matthew puts it more clearly. Ch. 28 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
So if we disregard the scriptures, even where their instructions are clear, how do we know what Jesus actually said? These Disciples/ Apostles/Church that Jesus was addressing in the above verses WERE credible eye witnesses to all the things that Jesus said and did. They knew the need for accuracy in their testimonies and preaching. The Gospel is what Jesus taught. We have to go by what is recorded (in the scriptures). If we throw that out we have nothing to base our faith upon. It appears (unlike Wally) that you are saying everything that Jesus said had an alternative understanding to what is conveyed in the KJV and other Bible translations? Remember the commandment of Jesus was to go into all the world and teach everyone all that he had commanded them. This requires an absolute consistency with every language and culture. If this is dependent upon ancient Hebraic 'thoughts' (Wally please go to the toilet before you wet yourself) for proper contextual understanding, then please provide one or two ancient Hebraic thoughts to some of the things that Jesus is recorded as having said in the KJV (or other Bible translation) so that we can get some idea of what you mean? As Wally has painfully pointed out in the past, and not only once, Jesus did not say all that he commanded was based upon or dependent upon an understanding of ancient Hebraic thoughts, but stressed it was based upon becoming like a little child before one could understand the things of his Kingdom. That did not come from ancient Hebraic thoughts, because those who may have been steeped in such ideas were blind to the teachings of Jesus, separated by a gulf with the Kingdom of God on one side and traditional 'Hebraic' culture and thoughts on the other. The latter had to be ditched with child-like simplicity in order to begin understanding the things of God. It seems to me that Wally (and others) has the same problem with your understanding of things as what Jesus had with all the Pharisees, Sadducees and Cannysees. Jesus was at variance with traditional understanding because it was a barrier to his true message. I'm afraid a lot of the things you come out with appear to me to suggest you have been transported from c.2000 years ago, so steeped in the former thoughts and ideas of a generation who had got so far away from God they failed to recognise the Messiah when he came, due to the fact his teachings were far removed from the traditional thoughts and ideas arising from ancient Hebraic culture. Please, please, listen to the echo..... 'thank goodness for Wally!' (Soory, I promised to ignore that!)
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Post by snow on Sept 5, 2023 12:35:26 GMT -5
Jesus was a Hebrew. He never read the bible, it wasn't around and he never contributed anything to it in the 1st person. Everything attributed to Jesus' words is hearsay. Translated and rewritten to fit the cultural understanding of the person writing it. Thats not how it generally goes with testimonies... Sorry don't understand what you mean?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2023 0:26:20 GMT -5
Thats not how it generally goes with testimonies... Sorry don't understand what you mean? "Translated and rewritten to fit the cultural understanding of the person writing it." Not how getting testimonies usually goes...
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Post by Dan on Sept 6, 2023 3:22:15 GMT -5
Jesus was a Hebrew. He never read the bible, it wasn't around and he never contributed anything to it in the 1st person. Everything attributed to Jesus' words is hearsay. Translated and rewritten to fit the cultural understanding of the person writing it.
Jesus is the Living Word, the entire bible is attributed to him. Since the bible is inspired by God, it is not hearsay; "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16).
There's no evidence that the bible was ever rewritten. And if the authors were writing to appease the culture, why were most of the prophets and apostles murdered?
Jesus was quoted by those who heard him, and that's not hearsay, its first hand testimony. Everything he did was witnessed, and those who recorded it were not repeating rumors, but relaying what they witnessed. That's why the gospels don't contradict, that's why nothing they wrote can be proven false.
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Post by mountain on Sept 6, 2023 5:56:19 GMT -5
Jesus was a Hebrew. He never read the bible, it wasn't around and he never contributed anything to it in the 1st person. Everything attributed to Jesus' words is hearsay. Translated and rewritten to fit the cultural understanding of the person writing it. Jesus is the Living Word, the entire bible is attributed to him. Since the bible is inspired by God, it is not hearsay; "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16).
There's no evidence that the bible was ever rewritten. And if the authors were writing to appease the culture, why were most of the prophets and apostles murdered?
Jesus was quoted by those who heard him, and that's not hearsay, its first hand testimony. Everything he did was witnessed, and those who recorded it were not repeating rumors, but relaying what they witnessed. That's why the gospels don't contradict, that's why nothing they wrote can be proven false.
Couldn't have put it better myself Dan. Maybe not even Wally. Good points indeed.
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Post by snow on Sept 6, 2023 15:55:38 GMT -5
Jesus was a Hebrew. He never read the bible, it wasn't around and he never contributed anything to it in the 1st person. Everything attributed to Jesus' words is hearsay. Translated and rewritten to fit the cultural understanding of the person writing it. Jesus is the Living Word, the entire bible is attributed to him. Since the bible is inspired by God, it is not hearsay; "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16).
There's no evidence that the bible was ever rewritten. And if the authors were writing to appease the culture, why were most of the prophets and apostles murdered?
Jesus was quoted by those who heard him, and that's not hearsay, its first hand testimony. Everything he did was witnessed, and those who recorded it were not repeating rumors, but relaying what they witnessed. That's why the gospels don't contradict, that's why nothing they wrote can be proven false.
The bible is completely written by men. And, we know just how reliable the HS is when interpreted and acted on my men. Why is it that men back then could be completely inspired by god and therefore the bible is completely true, but that inspiration in this day and age seems to be flawed. Yet it's claimed to come from men who are 'inspired' by God in what they say and do. Imo it's not something that changed. It's something that never existed. A man inspired by god that wrote only what god wanted with no interpretation on the man's part. Not feasible now and not then.
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Post by chuck on Sept 7, 2023 1:48:48 GMT -5
Jesus was a Hebrew. He never read the bible, it wasn't around and he never contributed anything to it in the 1st person. Everything attributed to Jesus' words is hearsay. Translated and rewritten to fit the cultural understanding of the person writing it.
Jesus is the Living Word, the entire bible is attributed to him. Since the bible is inspired by God, it is not hearsay; "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16).
There's no evidence that the bible was ever rewritten. And if the authors were writing to appease the culture, why were most of the prophets and apostles murdered?
Jesus was quoted by those who heard him, and that's not hearsay, its first hand testimony. Everything he did was witnessed, and those who recorded it were not repeating rumors, but relaying what they witnessed. That's why the gospels don't contradict, that's why nothing they wrote can be proven false.
Did they find Jesus in a House or Manger? Did they flee to Egypt or not? Was Jarius's daughter dead or dying when he went to Jesus? Remember it is plainly written......
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Post by chuck on Sept 7, 2023 2:11:29 GMT -5
Jesus world view came from ancient Hebraic thought, if you want to have some idea on what he may have said you start there, not at King James and go back and apply collectively the western religious baggage that has been collected along the way and erroneouspy placed onto the world view of a 1st century Hebrew. I will ignore the fact that others are shaking their head and uttering with a heavy breath.... 'thank goodness for Wally!'So we ignore the KJV and by default every other translation of the Bible since and seek out ideas of what Jesus really meant from ancient Hebraic thought? That's a very interesting concept. If I go down that route it will be akin to trying the National Lottery! Anyway, Wally gives us a more stable answer, at least for those who do not discard the Bible as a source of instruction. Mark 16 - KJV 1 4 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/b] Matthew puts it more clearly. Ch. 28 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
So if we disregard the scriptures, even where their instructions are clear, how do we know what Jesus actually said? These Disciples/ Apostles/Church that Jesus was addressing in the above verses WERE credible eye witnesses to all the things that Jesus said and did. They knew the need for accuracy in their testimonies and preaching. The Gospel is what Jesus taught. We have to go by what is recorded (in the scriptures). If we throw that out we have nothing to base our faith upon. It appears (unlike Wally) that you are saying everything that Jesus said had an alternative understanding to what is conveyed in the KJV and other Bible translations? Remember the commandment of Jesus was to go into all the world and teach everyone all that he had commanded them. This requires an absolute consistency with every language and culture. If this is dependent upon ancient Hebraic 'thoughts' (Wally please go to the toilet before you wet yourself) for proper contextual understanding, then please provide one or two ancient Hebraic thoughts to some of the things that Jesus is recorded as having said in the KJV (or other Bible translation) so that we can get some idea of what you mean? As Wally has painfully pointed out in the past, and not only once, Jesus did not say all that he commanded was based upon or dependent upon an understanding of ancient Hebraic thoughts, but stressed it was based upon becoming like a little child before one could understand the things of his Kingdom. That did not come from ancient Hebraic thoughts, because those who may have been steeped in such ideas were blind to the teachings of Jesus, separated by a gulf with the Kingdom of God on one side and traditional 'Hebraic' culture and thoughts on the other. The latter had to be ditched with child-like simplicity in order to begin understanding the things of God. It seems to me that Wally (and others) has the same problem with your understanding of things as what Jesus had with all the Pharisees, Sadducees and Cannysees. Jesus was at variance with traditional understanding because it was a barrier to his true message. I'm afraid a lot of the things you come out with appear to me to suggest you have been transported from c.2000 years ago, so steeped in the former thoughts and ideas of a generation who had got so far away from God they failed to recognise the Messiah when he came, due to the fact his teachings were far removed from the traditional thoughts and ideas arising from ancient Hebraic culture. Please, please, listen to the echo..... 'thank goodness for Wally!' (Soory, I promised to ignore that!)[/quote] Why would you strawman me?. I didn't say disregard anything, I did however suggest to regard more so you could see what has been introduced over time...... Why would Jesus need to say you should consider what he had said in the Hebrew though process......they naturally already knew what we dont know, thats why you need to understand their thought process and concepts. You or I were never considered when such things were discussed or recorded..... It seems in this debate quite a few are struggling to comprehend the context of time and perspective within the relevant time periods. You need to read scripture from the perspective of before said events and then look back on them....instead many seem to start from now and look back and appropriate the more modern western ideas and concepts back onto the Hebrew people.
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Post by chuck on Sept 7, 2023 2:53:02 GMT -5
Jesus is the Living Word, the entire bible is attributed to him. Since the bible is inspired by God, it is not hearsay; "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16).
There's no evidence that the bible was ever rewritten. And if the authors were writing to appease the culture, why were most of the prophets and apostles murdered?
Jesus was quoted by those who heard him, and that's not hearsay, its first hand testimony. Everything he did was witnessed, and those who recorded it were not repeating rumors, but relaying what they witnessed. That's why the gospels don't contradict, that's why nothing they wrote can be proven false.
The bible is completely written by men. And, we know just how reliable the HS is when interpreted and acted on my men. Why is it that men back then could be completely inspired by god and therefore the bible is completely true, but that inspiration in this day and age seems to be flawed. Yet it's claimed to come from men who are 'inspired' by God in what they say and do. Imo it's not something that changed. It's something that never existed. A man inspired by god that wrote only what god wanted with no interpretation on the man's part. Not feasible now and not then. How I would understand inspired by God is it is Men inspired by and trying to transcend the highest ideals of the relevant time period. So for example the story about Abraham and Isaac, to me that is people in that period of time transcending their highest ideals, and they recorded it by way of writing or oral stories about a huge leap in the right direction.for humanity. It is inspired by God, just not the concept of God most people recognise...if we go with the dominant concept of God I agree with you.....
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Post by mountain on Sept 7, 2023 4:02:41 GMT -5
I will ignore the fact that others are shaking their head and uttering with a heavy breath.... 'thank goodness for Wally!'So we ignore the KJV and by default every other translation of the Bible since and seek out ideas of what Jesus really meant from ancient Hebraic thought? That's a very interesting concept. If I go down that route it will be akin to trying the National Lottery! Anyway, Wally gives us a more stable answer, at least for those who do not discard the Bible as a source of instruction. Mark 16 - KJV 1 4 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/b] Matthew puts it more clearly. Ch. 28 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
So if we disregard the scriptures, even where their instructions are clear, how do we know what Jesus actually said? These Disciples/ Apostles/Church that Jesus was addressing in the above verses WERE credible eye witnesses to all the things that Jesus said and did. They knew the need for accuracy in their testimonies and preaching. The Gospel is what Jesus taught. We have to go by what is recorded (in the scriptures). If we throw that out we have nothing to base our faith upon. It appears (unlike Wally) that you are saying everything that Jesus said had an alternative understanding to what is conveyed in the KJV and other Bible translations? Remember the commandment of Jesus was to go into all the world and teach everyone all that he had commanded them. This requires an absolute consistency with every language and culture. If this is dependent upon ancient Hebraic 'thoughts' (Wally please go to the toilet before you wet yourself) for proper contextual understanding, then please provide one or two ancient Hebraic thoughts to some of the things that Jesus is recorded as having said in the KJV (or other Bible translation) so that we can get some idea of what you mean? As Wally has painfully pointed out in the past, and not only once, Jesus did not say all that he commanded was based upon or dependent upon an understanding of ancient Hebraic thoughts, but stressed it was based upon becoming like a little child before one could understand the things of his Kingdom. That did not come from ancient Hebraic thoughts, because those who may have been steeped in such ideas were blind to the teachings of Jesus, separated by a gulf with the Kingdom of God on one side and traditional 'Hebraic' culture and thoughts on the other. The latter had to be ditched with child-like simplicity in order to begin understanding the things of God. It seems to me that Wally (and others) has the same problem with your understanding of things as what Jesus had with all the Pharisees, Sadducees and Cannysees. Jesus was at variance with traditional understanding because it was a barrier to his true message. I'm afraid a lot of the things you come out with appear to me to suggest you have been transported from c.2000 years ago, so steeped in the former thoughts and ideas of a generation who had got so far away from God they failed to recognise the Messiah when he came, due to the fact his teachings were far removed from the traditional thoughts and ideas arising from ancient Hebraic culture. Please, please, listen to the echo..... 'thank goodness for Wally!' (Soory, I promised to ignore that!)[/quote] Why would you strawman me?. I didn't say disregard anything, I did however suggest to regard more so you could see what has been introduced over time...... Why would Jesus need to say you should consider what he had said in the Hebrew though process......they naturally already knew what we dont know, thats why you need to understand their thought process and concepts. You or I were never considered when such things were discussed or recorded..... It seems in this debate quite a few are struggling to comprehend the context of time and perspective within the relevant time periods. You need to read scripture from the perspective of before said events and then look back on them....instead many seem to start from now and look back and appropriate the more modern western ideas and concepts back onto the Hebrew people.[/quote] Chuck, Your contributions regarding tackling CSA etc., are second to none and I hope are met with much approval. On the opposite flank I see a wayward reliance on what those who rejected Christ's teachings out of hand and slew him, their apparent thoughts, ideas and traditions. I have but one question for you. Who is your teacher when it comes to matters of Christ and following him? Clearly it isn't Wally!
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Post by chuck on Sept 7, 2023 7:36:27 GMT -5
"Your contributions regarding tackling CSA etc., are second to none and I hope are met with much approval. On the opposite flank I see a wayward reliance on what those who rejected Christ's teachings out of hand and slew him, their apparent thoughts, ideas and traditions. I have but one question for you. Who is your teacher when it comes to matters of Christ and following him? Clearly it isn't Wally!" mountainThe Romans slew Jesus, and the religious exclusives wanted it, this however does not mean all who were commited to Judaism rejected Jesus's teachings which it seems you are implying?, guilty by association?. I see no difference today as back then, the religious exclusives happy to see or to have the Christ character killed for their selfishness..... I will happily use multiple resources, from Bart Erhman to Tim Mackie and anyone in between, lots of knowledge available if you are willing to holster what you think you know long enough to grasp other ideas......but in the story Jesus teachings are summed up very well by the writer of Matthews gospel... Matthew 22:35-40 [35]Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, [36]Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38]This is the first and great commandment. [39]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Why would anyone need a teacher to understand this? the entire summation of the intent of OT Scripture to Jesus was Love your neighbour as you would yourself, and do it with everything that you have..... Now clearly that isn't Wally's teachings because anyone not like him is headed to the hot place......who is my neighbour he asks...... my question to you is if people don't see it like you are they headed to the hot place as well?, and please dont give a cop-out answer......
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Post by mountain on Sept 7, 2023 9:31:30 GMT -5
"Your contributions regarding tackling CSA etc., are second to none and I hope are met with much approval. On the opposite flank I see a wayward reliance on what those who rejected Christ's teachings out of hand and slew him, their apparent thoughts, ideas and traditions. I have but one question for you. Who is your teacher when it comes to matters of Christ and following him? Clearly it isn't Wally!" mountainThe Romans slew Jesus, and the religious exclusives wanted it, this however does not mean all who were commited to Judaism rejected Jesus's teachings which it seems you are implying?, guilty by association?. I see no difference today as back then, the religious exclusives happy to see or to have the Christ character killed for their selfishness..... I will happily use multiple resources, from Bart Erhman to Tim Mackie and anyone in between, lots of knowledge available if you are willing to holster what you think you know long enough to grasp other ideas......but in the story Jesus teachings are summed up very well by the writer of Matthews gospel... Matthew 22:35-40 [35]Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, [36]Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38]This is the first and great commandment. [39]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Why would anyone need a teacher to understand this? the entire summation of the intent of OT Scripture to Jesus was Love your neighbour as you would yourself, and do it with everything that you have..... Now clearly that isn't Wally's teachings because anyone not like him is headed to the hot place......who is my neighbour he asks...... my question to you is if people don't see it like you are they headed to the hot place as well?, and please dont give a cop-out answer......
I am not the judge of another's salvation. Jesus warned 'judge not that ye be judged' I believe he was addressing the Pharisees propensity to judge others before God, making themselves out to be righteous and others unrighteous. They were getting in the way between God and man. I have no intention of doing that. I have enough to worry about with myself. Matthew 7 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye. Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Interesting you use a number of sources. I use a variety of sources myself but my key source is the teaching and guidance of the Holy Spirit. Without that I cannot 'see' the Kingdom of God and without that I cannot 'enter' the Kingdom of God. All other sources of guidance and information are vain without relying on the guidance of the Holy Spirit to bring correct understanding. This is a bit by bit process. Therefore I believe that a person cannot understand the things of God without the agency of the Holy Spirit. Therefore I have to ask you: Do you believe your understanding of ancient Hebraic culture and thinking, so necessary for your understanding of Jesus's teachings, is of the Holy Spirit, or is it of man? Obviously if it is not of the Holy Spirit is is a digression and/or distraction.
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Post by Dan on Sept 7, 2023 17:36:48 GMT -5
Jesus is the Living Word, the entire bible is attributed to him. Since the bible is inspired by God, it is not hearsay; "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16).
There's no evidence that the bible was ever rewritten. And if the authors were writing to appease the culture, why were most of the prophets and apostles murdered?
Jesus was quoted by those who heard him, and that's not hearsay, its first hand testimony. Everything he did was witnessed, and those who recorded it were not repeating rumors, but relaying what they witnessed. That's why the gospels don't contradict, that's why nothing they wrote can be proven false.
Did they find Jesus in a House or Manger? Did they flee to Egypt or not? Was Jarius's daughter dead or dying when he went to Jesus? Remember it is plainly written......
"Did they find Jesus in a House or Manger?"
The shepherds saw Jesus in the manger at Bethlehem , the Magi (wise men) saw him later at the house in Nazareth.
"Did they flee to Egypt or not?"
Yes they fled to Egypt.. There's no contradiction if that's what your insinuating? The only conundrum is a misunderstood timeline, its really quite simple when you understand that Matthew and Luke aren't describing the same events. In Luke 2:4, they go to Bethlehem, then the shepherds (not the Magi) come to see baby Jesus (vs 16). We then read that Jesus is circumcised after 8 days in Bethlehem, and after Mary's purification (40 days), they leave for the Temple in Jerusalem (Luke 2:21-22). Next, they leave Jerusalem and return home to Nazareth (Luke 2:39).
In Matthew 2:11, the story picks up where Luke left off, in Nazareth after they had returned from Jerusalem. The wise men (not the shepherds) went to see baby Jesus at the house in Nazareth, not the stable in Bethlehem. Then an angel warns Joseph to flee to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-14). They return after Herod dies.
People often get confused because in Xmas exhibits they always picture the wise men bringing gold, frankincense, and myrrh to the manger in Bethlehem. But in reality, they weren't even there.
"Was Jarius's daughter dead or dying when he went to Jesus?"
Its self-explanatory; "And there came a man named Jairus, who was a ruler of the synagogue. And falling at Jesus' feet, he implored him to come to his house, for he had an only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she was dying" (Luke 8:41-42). "While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master" (Luke 8:49-50). So the girl was in the process of dying when Jarius went for Jesus, but obviously died soon after he reached him..
Yes, it is plainly written...
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Post by Dan on Sept 7, 2023 19:01:10 GMT -5
The bible is completely written by men. And, we know just how reliable the HS is when interpreted and acted on by men. Why is it that men back then could be completely inspired by god and therefore the bible is completely true, but that inspiration in this day and age seems to be flawed. Yet it's claimed to come from men who are 'inspired' by God in what they say and do. Imo it's not something that changed. It's something that never existed. A man inspired by god that wrote only what god wanted with no interpretation on the man's part. Not feasible now and not then.
The Holy Spirit is unerring, but our understanding and interpretation is not, which is why we are inspired to study and learn scripture.
The writers were completely inspired back then for the same reason most of them were given the authority to perform miracles (healing), "All Scripture is God-breathed", and that which is God inspired is 100% true.
We are not 'inspired' today in the same sense that the prophets and apostles were. They were provided infallible gifts for a specific purpose. We are the beneficiaries of the Truth which they were entrusted and empowered to preserve. We are not inherently gifted by the H.S. to perform any perfect task, today the purpose is to seal, guide, and comfort.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2023 21:30:49 GMT -5
"Your contributions regarding tackling CSA etc., are second to none and I hope are met with much approval. On the opposite flank I see a wayward reliance on what those who rejected Christ's teachings out of hand and slew him, their apparent thoughts, ideas and traditions. I have but one question for you. Who is your teacher when it comes to matters of Christ and following him? Clearly it isn't Wally!" mountain The Romans slew Jesus, and the religious exclusives wanted it, this however does not mean all who were commited to Judaism rejected Jesus's teachings which it seems you are implying?, guilty by association?. I see no difference today as back then, the religious exclusives happy to see or to have the Christ character killed for their selfishness..... I will happily use multiple resources, from Bart Erhman to Tim Mackie and anyone in between, lots of knowledge available if you are willing to holster what you think you know long enough to grasp other ideas......but in the story Jesus teachings are summed up very well by the writer of Matthews gospel... Matthew 22:35-40 [35]Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, [36]Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37]Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38]This is the first and great commandment. [39]And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40]On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Why would anyone need a teacher to understand this? the entire summation of the intent of OT Scripture to Jesus was Love your neighbour as you would yourself, and do it with everything that you have..... Now clearly that isn't Wally's teachings because anyone not like him is headed to the hot place......who is my neighbour he asks...... my question to you is if people don't see it like you are they headed to the hot place as well?, and please dont give a cop-out answer...... I've never said that chuckite...good try though...Luke 16...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2023 21:32:05 GMT -5
Did they find Jesus in a House or Manger? Did they flee to Egypt or not? Was Jarius's daughter dead or dying when he went to Jesus? Remember it is plainly written......
"Did they find Jesus in a House or Manger?"
The shepherds saw Jesus in the manger at Bethlehem , the Magi (wise men) saw him later at the house in Nazareth.
"Did they flee to Egypt or not?"
Yes they fled to Egypt.. There's no contradiction if that's what your insinuating? The only conundrum is a misunderstood timeline, its really quite simple when you understand that Matthew and Luke aren't describing the same events. In Luke 2:4, they go to Bethlehem, then the shepherds (not the Magi) come to see baby Jesus (vs 16). We then read that Jesus is circumcised after 8 days in Bethlehem, and after Mary's purification (40 days), they leave for the Temple in Jerusalem (Luke 2:21-22). Next, they leave Jerusalem and return home to Nazareth (Luke 2:39).
In Matthew 2:11, the story picks up where Luke left off, in Nazareth after they had returned from Jerusalem. The wise men (not the shepherds) went to see baby Jesus at the house in Nazareth, not the stable in Bethlehem. Then an angel warns Joseph to flee to Egypt (Matthew 2:13-14). They return after Herod dies.
People often get confused because in Xmas exhibits they always picture the wise men bringing gold, frankincense, and myrrh to the manger in Bethlehem. But in reality, they weren't even there.
"Was Jarius's daughter dead or dying when he went to Jesus?"
Its self-explanatory; "And there came a man named Jairus, who was a ruler of the synagogue. And falling at Jesus' feet, he implored him to come to his house, for he had an only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she was dying" (Luke 8:41-42). "While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master" (Luke 8:49-50). So the girl was in the process of dying when Jarius went for Jesus, but obviously died soon after he reached him..
Yes, it is plainly written...
Well said brother, you'll have to repeat ad nauseum though, chuckites don't get it...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2023 21:32:25 GMT -5
The bible is completely written by men. And, we know just how reliable the HS is when interpreted and acted on by men. Why is it that men back then could be completely inspired by god and therefore the bible is completely true, but that inspiration in this day and age seems to be flawed. Yet it's claimed to come from men who are 'inspired' by God in what they say and do. Imo it's not something that changed. It's something that never existed. A man inspired by god that wrote only what god wanted with no interpretation on the man's part. Not feasible now and not then.
The Holy Spirit is unerring, but our understanding and interpretation is not, which is why we are inspired to study and learn scripture.
The writers were completely inspired back then for the same reason most of them were given the authority to perform miracles (healing), "All Scripture is God-breathed", and that which is God inspired is 100% true.
We are not 'inspired' today in the same sense that the prophets and apostles were. They were provided infallible gifts for a specific purpose. We are the beneficiaries of the Truth which they were entrusted and empowered to preserve. We are not inherently gifted by the H.S. to perform any perfect task, today the purpose is to seal, guide, and comfort.
Spot on!!!
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