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Post by believingjesus on Aug 29, 2023 20:48:28 GMT -5
Many of the workers could use a course in public speaking. Some of the younger workers with education past high school do have some speaking ability as they make eye contact with the audience and have a message with an introduction, presentation, and a definite close. The audience should be left with some type of feeling after hearing the sermon. The feeling could be inspirational, motivational, or even total disagreement as those are all feelings. I have spent many hours looking at my watch and waiting for the time for the worker to wrap up the sermon and move on to another worker or dismissal. Some of our workers would never make it in a denominational church as the elders of the church could have them removed. I look at the speaking list before I attend the meeting and select the workers who have some speaking ability. I am old and have trouble hearing the sister workers speak and usually get little from their sermon. The sermon should start by telling the audience what they are going to tell them before telling them and then telling them what they told them prior to the close. You should react by being emotionally moved, sad, happy, mad, or maybe nothing, which is sometimes the case. It sounds like you’re into storytelling, and I’d have to agree you are.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 1:11:10 GMT -5
Uh huh, which book in the bible has CSA training in it like we have today? One who commits something as grave as CSA or hides it wasn't "Holy Spirit led". A bit of Discernment would help you to know that. I won't hold my breath. Just sayin' Does scripture ever mention that before getting to Heaven, we'll know everything and are 100% perfect now? If so Book, Chapter and verse please. He sure was able to fool a lot of people who supposedly had and still have the HS now wasn’t he? So much for the HS producing discernment! Typical, you forget the adversary that can confuse and screw up stuff some of the time. Oh, to live in a perfect world now...
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Post by chuck on Aug 30, 2023 1:19:46 GMT -5
When did I say the greeks invented hell??. To the Hebrew people when you died you were a dead soul. Your soul didn’t go anywhere. To the greeks your soul left your body and went up or down basically. Two totally different philosophies. So which philosophy are you applying to the scripture you have quoted, the Greeks version or the Hebrews?. And when you have decided which philosophy you are going to apply to the soul how does that work in conjunction with spirit as one verse you quoted said spirit?. I find it really confusing that on one hand you say there is no reality in myth when you clearly believe some mythological stories as literally true. I don't see you arguing that there are windows in the firmament? why not because its written as clearly as other things you believe are literally true but yet can provide nothing outside ofnthe words on a page to support the claim?, could it be perhaps that you can see with your own two eyes there are no windows in the firmament so never give those types of verses a second thought but yet you are quite happy to defend things that physically do not happen now and most likely back then all because you cannot verify with your own eyes but rather give you the hope of never ending life...... There is most definitely reality in myth, all you have to do is forget abiut trying to make them physicalpy literal and see how they represent people lived experiences, they are truer than true as the experiences described within these mythological stories are true across time. Noah for instance, building his ark out of a resilient material that was water tight so even the worst of flood couldn't drown him, this is still true tonthis very day, I know many people today who have shown the ability to rise above things that most definitely would have drowned people who hadn't prepared an ark....this is the reality of this mythological story. There is always a story behind the story dan, Hebrew's didn't waste words like we do, If they mention Siloam it wasn't just to tell people a physical location. Which is why I ask what was Siloam to them?. Stop reading the words like a westerner and read them through the eyes of Hebrew, it is a reflection of their culture and thought process after all...... You are forgetting the pharisee's piker. They believed in an afterlife. They believe in a soul and after life. Guess what they were Hebrews... I agree to a certain extent. The afterlife and immortality of the soul for the Pharisees was resurrection back on this earth. From what I can understand the Pharisees like ancient Hebrews still had the same concept about the soul though, that being it did not live seperate to the body and ascend or decsend to the Greek versions of heaven and hell after physical death. The OT only ever talks about Sheol, and when a person is in Sheol their soul isn't alive or somewhere else. The soul is linked to breathing, so if you were dead so was your soul or It didn't exist if that's the right term. The soul separating from the body and going up or down is Greek philosophy and come from people like Plato. Jesus and the Pharisees did not believe in the Greek versions of the soul seperating from the body and going to Heaven or Hell on death. They did however think that the body would be inspired again and resurrected here on this earth.
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Post by chuck on Aug 30, 2023 1:51:26 GMT -5
When did I say the greeks invented hell??. To the Hebrew people when you died you were a dead soul. Your soul didn’t go anywhere. To the greeks your soul left your body and went up or down basically. Two totally different philosophies. So which philosophy are you applying to the scripture you have quoted, the Greeks version or the Hebrews?. And when you have decided which philosophy you are going to apply to the soul how does that work in conjunction with spirit as one verse you quoted said spirit?. I find it really confusing that on one hand you say there is no reality in myth when you clearly believe some mythological stories as literally true. I don't see you arguing that there are windows in the firmament? why not because its written as clearly as other things you believe are literally true but yet can provide nothing outside ofnthe words on a page to support the claim?, could it be perhaps that you can see with your own two eyes there are no windows in the firmament so never give those types of verses a second thought but yet you are quite happy to defend things that physically do not happen now and most likely back then all because you cannot verify with your own eyes but rather give you the hope of never ending life...... There is most definitely reality in myth, all you have to do is forget abiut trying to make them physicalpy literal and see how they represent people lived experiences, they are truer than true as the experiences described within these mythological stories are true across time. Noah for instance, building his ark out of a resilient material that was water tight so even the worst of flood couldn't drown him, this is still true tonthis very day, I know many people today who have shown the ability to rise above things that most definitely would have drowned people who hadn't prepared an ark....this is the reality of this mythological story. There is always a story behind the story dan, Hebrew's didn't waste words like we do, If they mention Siloam it wasn't just to tell people a physical location. Which is why I ask what was Siloam to them?. Stop reading the words like a westerner and read them through the eyes of Hebrew, it is a reflection of their culture and thought process after all......
Our soul is the immaterial eternal essence of our being. You don’t have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body. Your soul occupies a physical body, but its incorporeal and does not perish. Your spirit is the intellect/consciousness of your soul and is who you are. Your spirit & soul existed before your physical body, neither emanated materially or physically. God told Jeremiah "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" (Jeremiah 1:5). In Luke 16:19–31, Jesus taught that the soul is not sleeping but alive and conscious after death. No soul has perished, your spirit & soul are inseparable, those saved will receive new bodies, while lost souls will perish in the Lake of Fire, that's the second death.
The phrase, "Windows in the heavens were opened" ((Genesis 7:11) is not a literal window, that Hebrew word is "challon". The Strong's concordance defines window in Gen 7:11 as "arubbah" and the definition is "sluice" meaning showering with water.
Its never been my contention that everything in the bible is 100% literal, it has its own lingo using expressions, symbolic references, parables, etc. But something as simple as the Pool of Siloam is a literal reference and not symbolic of anything, this is what it is today:
I still contend that there is no reality in a myth. It may be a fake story to illustrate a moral lesson, but a myth by definition is a false belief. The bible is only a book of puzzling mythological stories to those who won't believe it. When it says that Jesus restored a man's sight, its not a symbolic, metaphorical, or figurative reference that means something else. Its means exactly what it says.
The soul occupying or its incorporeal is Greek philosophy. Jesus was a jew not a greek. The OT is what Jews thought about the soul. It says the soul is living or dead. Numbers 6:6 [6]All the days H3117 that he separateth H5144 himself unto the LORD H3068 he shall come H935 at no dead H4191 body. H5315 Strong's Number - H5315 Hebrew: נפשׁ Transliteration: nephesh Pronunciation: neh'-fesh Definition: From H5314; properly a breathing {creature} that {is} animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a {literal} accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - {any} {appetite} {beast} {body} {breath} {creature} X dead ({-ly}) {desire} X [dis-] {contented} X {fish} {ghost} + {greedy} {he} heart ({-y}) ({hath} X jeopardy of) life (X in {jeopardy}) {lust} {man} {me} {mind} {mortality} {one} {own} {person} {pleasure} ({her-} {him-} {my-} thy-) {self} them (your) {-selves} + {slay} {soul} + {tablet} {they} {thing} (X she) {will} X would have it. KJV Usage: soul (475x), life (117x), person (29x), mind (15x), heart (15x), creature (9x), body (8x), himself (8x), yourselves (6x), dead (5x), will (4x), desire (4x), man (3x), themselves (3x), any (3x), appetite (2x), misc (47x). Occurs: 753 In verses: 683 Luke 16 19-31 is most likely a parable told by luke, Jews did not believe the soul could be conscious if the body was dead, the sould was instrisicly linked to breathing for a Jew, dead men dont breath......the spirit or breath has left the body, they have expired or they are no longer inspired by God. Thats it. No things like souls or spirits floating off to places called Heaven or Hell, that is all greek influenced philosophy that Jesus did not believe because again he was a Jew. The Noah myth most certainly is reality, Ive seen people survive floods in their lives with my own two eyes, had their ark been compromised it most definitely would have drowned them. Luckily their ark was constructed with resilient material. ....... Using your or Wally's argument, its plainly written, the translators said "window"......now you want to dig a little deeper? why, like I said previously people seem to have a habit of going to the greater lengths to disprove scripture from what they can see with their own eyes as conpared to proving what they cannot see....... If you begin to do the same with the word soul you will see how Christianity today most definitely ignores or is willfully ignorant of what Jesus would have thought about the soul...... Siloam would have had some significance and meant something, I've have learnt they didn't waste words just to give you the name of pool without reason.
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Post by mountain on Aug 30, 2023 3:48:48 GMT -5
Our soul is the immaterial eternal essence of our being. You don’t have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body. Your soul occupies a physical body, but its incorporeal and does not perish. Your spirit is the intellect/consciousness of your soul and is who you are. Your spirit & soul existed before your physical body, neither emanated materially or physically. God told Jeremiah "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee" (Jeremiah 1:5). In Luke 16:19–31, Jesus taught that the soul is not sleeping but alive and conscious after death. No soul has perished, your spirit & soul are inseparable, those saved will receive new bodies, while lost souls will perish in the Lake of Fire, that's the second death. The phrase, "Windows in the heavens were opened" ((Genesis 7:11) is not a literal window, that Hebrew word is "challon". The Strong's concordance defines window in Gen 7:11 as "arubbah" and the definition is "sluice" meaning showering with water.
Its never been my contention that everything in the bible is 100% literal, it has its own lingo using expressions, symbolic references, parables, etc. But something as simple as the Pool of Siloam is a literal reference and not symbolic of anything, this is what it is today: I still contend that there is no reality in a myth. It may be a fake story to illustrate a moral lesson, but a myth by definition is a false belief. The bible is only a book of puzzling mythological stories to those who won't believe it. When it says that Jesus restored a man's sight, its not a symbolic, metaphorical, or figurative reference that means something else. Its means exactly what it says.
The soul occupying or its incorporeal is Greek philosophy. Jesus was a jew not a greek. The OT is what Jews thought about the soul. It says the soul is living or dead. Numbers 6:6 [6]All the days H3117 that he separateth H5144 himself unto the LORD H3068 he shall come H935 at no dead H4191 body. H5315 Strong's Number - H5315 Hebrew: נפשׁ Transliteration: nephesh Pronunciation: neh'-fesh Definition: From H5314; properly a breathing {creature} that {is} animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a {literal} accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - {any} {appetite} {beast} {body} {breath} {creature} X dead ({-ly}) {desire} X [dis-] {contented} X {fish} {ghost} + {greedy} {he} heart ({-y}) ({hath} X jeopardy of) life (X in {jeopardy}) {lust} {man} {me} {mind} {mortality} {one} {own} {person} {pleasure} ({her-} {him-} {my-} thy-) {self} them (your) {-selves} + {slay} {soul} + {tablet} {they} {thing} (X she) {will} X would have it. KJV Usage: soul (475x), life (117x), person (29x), mind (15x), heart (15x), creature (9x), body (8x), himself (8x), yourselves (6x), dead (5x), will (4x), desire (4x), man (3x), themselves (3x), any (3x), appetite (2x), misc (47x). Occurs: 753 In verses: 683 Luke 16 19-31 is most likely a parable told by luke, Jews did not believe the soul could be conscious if the body was dead, the sould was instrisicly linked to breathing for a Jew, dead men dont breath......the spirit or breath has left the body, they have expired or they are no longer inspired by God. Thats it. No things like souls or spirits floating off to places called Heaven or Hell, that is all greek influenced philosophy that Jesus did not believe because again he was a Jew. The Noah myth most certainly is reality, Ive seen people survive floods in their lives with my own two eyes, had their ark been compromised it most definitely would have drowned them. Luckily their ark was constructed with resilient material. ....... Using your or Wally's argument, its plainly written, the translators said "window"......now you want to dig a little deeper? why, like I said previously people seem to have a habit of going to the greater lengths to disprove scripture from what they can see with their own eyes as conpared to proving what they cannot see....... If you begin to do the same with the word soul you will see how Christianity today most definitely ignores or is willfully ignorant of what Jesus would have thought about the soul......Siloam would have had some significance and meant something, I've have learnt they didn't waste words just to give you the name of pool without reason. One thing that Wally unfailingly prioritises is what Jesus (God's voice) said on any matter over and above anyone else, regardless of the source. Jesus did give us an example of what occurs after death. Wally correctly raises the issue of: The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke's Gospel ch. 16. 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
As Wally correctly points out, this is an account which occurs between the first and second coming of Christ. Jesus is using factual information to tell a parable or a true story (opinions differ) about what happens after death. It is clear there is consciousness after death, both for those in Christ and those outwith. Call it soul or whatever, but it lives on. Jesus would not use false information to highlight a story, irrespective of whether it is true or not.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 30, 2023 6:08:42 GMT -5
It's simple, our spirit goes to God and he decides what he does with us, and our body gets buried in the earth. We are a living spirit in a body of flesh, we can talk away within ourselves, this is us, our spirit, and this is what leaves us and goes to God at death. And this Spirit has been put within this body of flesh within which we are tried and tempted by the devil daily, and it's then up to us whether we listen to the lusts of our flesh when we are tempted and fall, or obey God and live by his will and turn from doing wrong to do what's good and right by him. We choose each day whom we serve.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 30, 2023 6:16:52 GMT -5
The rich man and lazarus parable? The one where the rich man was indifferent to the suffering at his gate? Like those who feel so rich and satisfied in their religious system, while indifferent to the suffering of CSA victims at their gate? It's not a parable chuckite. There will be more people in hell then pedos or their puppets... Hi Wally, I believe it is a parable, because it says in the Bible that Jesus only spoke to them in parables 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
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Post by chuck on Aug 30, 2023 6:18:21 GMT -5
The soul occupying or its incorporeal is Greek philosophy. Jesus was a jew not a greek. The OT is what Jews thought about the soul. It says the soul is living or dead. Numbers 6:6 [6]All the days H3117 that he separateth H5144 himself unto the LORD H3068 he shall come H935 at no dead H4191 body. H5315 Strong's Number - H5315 Hebrew: נפשׁ Transliteration: nephesh Pronunciation: neh'-fesh Definition: From H5314; properly a breathing {creature} that {is} animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a {literal} accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - {any} {appetite} {beast} {body} {breath} {creature} X dead ({-ly}) {desire} X [dis-] {contented} X {fish} {ghost} + {greedy} {he} heart ({-y}) ({hath} X jeopardy of) life (X in {jeopardy}) {lust} {man} {me} {mind} {mortality} {one} {own} {person} {pleasure} ({her-} {him-} {my-} thy-) {self} them (your) {-selves} + {slay} {soul} + {tablet} {they} {thing} (X she) {will} X would have it. KJV Usage: soul (475x), life (117x), person (29x), mind (15x), heart (15x), creature (9x), body (8x), himself (8x), yourselves (6x), dead (5x), will (4x), desire (4x), man (3x), themselves (3x), any (3x), appetite (2x), misc (47x). Occurs: 753 In verses: 683 Luke 16 19-31 is most likely a parable told by luke, Jews did not believe the soul could be conscious if the body was dead, the sould was instrisicly linked to breathing for a Jew, dead men dont breath......the spirit or breath has left the body, they have expired or they are no longer inspired by God. Thats it. No things like souls or spirits floating off to places called Heaven or Hell, that is all greek influenced philosophy that Jesus did not believe because again he was a Jew. The Noah myth most certainly is reality, Ive seen people survive floods in their lives with my own two eyes, had their ark been compromised it most definitely would have drowned them. Luckily their ark was constructed with resilient material. ....... Using your or Wally's argument, its plainly written, the translators said "window"......now you want to dig a little deeper? why, like I said previously people seem to have a habit of going to the greater lengths to disprove scripture from what they can see with their own eyes as conpared to proving what they cannot see....... If you begin to do the same with the word soul you will see how Christianity today most definitely ignores or is willfully ignorant of what Jesus would have thought about the soul......Siloam would have had some significance and meant something, I've have learnt they didn't waste words just to give you the name of pool without reason. One thing that Wally unfailingly prioritises is what Jesus (God's voice) said on any matter over and above anyone else, regardless of the source. Jesus did give us an example of what occurs after death. Wally correctly raises the issue of: The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke's Gospel ch. 16. 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
As Wally correctly points out, this is an account which occurs between the first and second coming of Christ. Jesus is using factual information to tell a parable or a true story (opinions differ) about what happens after death. It is clear there is consciousness after death, both for those in Christ and those outwith. Call it soul or whatever, but it lives on. Jesus would not use false information to highlight a story, irrespective of whether it is true or not. Strong's Number - H5315 Hebrew: נפשׁ Transliteration: nephesh Pronunciation: neh'-fesh Definition: From H5314; properly a breathing {creature} that {is} animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a {literal} accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - {any} {appetite} {beast} {body} {breath} {creature} X dead ({-ly}) {desire} X [dis-] {contented} X {fish} {ghost} + {greedy} {he} heart ({-y}) ({hath} X jeopardy of) life (X in {jeopardy}) {lust} {man} {me} {mind} {mortality} {one} {own} {person} {pleasure} ({her-} {him-} {my-} thy-) {self} them (your) {-selves} + {slay} {soul} + {tablet} {they} {thing} (X she) {will} X would have it. KJV Usage: soul (475x), life (117x), person (29x), mind (15x), heart (15x), creature (9x), body (8x), himself (8x), yourselves (6x), dead (5x), will (4x), desire (4x), man (3x), themselves (3x), any (3x), appetite (2x), misc (47x). Occurs: 753 In verses: 683 Look at a strongs concordance and look at how H5315 is used in the OT. Can you find anywhere where H5315 is described as something being separate from the body but residing within the body until death, and then it leaves the body upon death to go to some other place or realm because it is immortal??
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Post by maryhig on Aug 30, 2023 6:51:09 GMT -5
There's a fair bit of truth in this, and I have been saying similar things for many years. Of course, when you learn more about the gospel, redemption, sanctification etc from educated biblical scholars not in our church, you get mocked and scoffed at by some, even a worker on here. A couple of points: 1) I heard in a mission the sermon about the validity of the 2*2 homeless and itinerant ministry. People were going out saying how good it was to hear the Gospel. I thought the the Gospel was the Good News about Jesus life and resurrection. 2) I recall a combined mission some years ago where the opening hymn was "Jesus only is our message", and that was the last his name or life was mentioned in the whole meeting. There's a fair bit of truth in this, and I have been saying similar things for many years. Of course, when you learn more about the gospel, redemption, sanctification etc from educated biblical scholars not in our church, you get mocked and scoffed at by some, even a worker on here. A couple of points: 1) I heard in a mission the sermon about the validity of the 2*2 homeless and itinerant ministry. People were going out saying how good it was to hear the Gospel. I thought the the Gospel was the Good News about Jesus life and resurrection. 2) I recall a combined mission some years ago where the opening hymn was "Jesus only is our message", and that was the last his name or life was mentioned in the whole meeting. The thing is a true man or woman of God doesn't need to learn the gospel from educated Bible scholars, he/she will be taught of God by through Christ by the power of the Spirit. They saw the disciples as uneducated and Jesus also was taught direct from God, it says in the Bible that when Jesus was 12 the he increased in wisdom, and wisdom comes from God, and with wisdom comes understanding. Luke 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. My uncle first heard the gospel from a man preaching in the street called Malcolm in Belfast, he never preached about the meetings or anything like that, it was all God and Christ. My uncle said it was like a sword going through him, he said his life was never the same and it was like his old man was put to death and a new man (Christ) lived through him after that. My uncle said he asked Malcolm if he goes to a church and he said no we have house meetings. My uncle attended the meetings in Belfast, the ones where Edward Cooney attended, but he then went out preaching about God and Christ in the streets soon after, first in Belfast, then he was drawn to Liverpool, where he preached in the streets and at the docks in Liverpool where he lived in a small room at the top of an old house, he gave up a really good job with good money to become a street preacher and took on a job as a rat catcher so that he could speak about God to the people of Liverpool and help when he saw the need, at times before he worked he had no food or lodgings but God got him through. And then of course he spoke to us when he came to Wales which was often. He spoke to me about the things of God from when I was young, teaching me right from wrong and to what's good and to turn away from doing wrong, but never pushing anything on, and he always taught about God and Christ, not about the church or anything like that. He was strong in God and was a different man to what he was before he knew God, God changed his heart and I wish you could have heard him he was the kindest man I ever met. He didn't order us to do anything he was kind, caring and compassionate, he would tell us what was right and wrong but he wouldn't force us to do anything. When I was young and wore makeup, he used to say " do you know you don't need make up, you have a pretty face that God made", and he'd joke with me and say "you know that you're saying God didn't do a good job" he never said hey that off your Face or anything like that, that was my mums job😄 But I did eventually take my makeup off and stop dying my hair etc. All of my own free will once I read the Bible properly, and turned to God to live by his will.
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Post by believingjesus on Aug 30, 2023 7:46:16 GMT -5
He sure was able to fool a lot of people who supposedly had and still have the HS now wasn’t he? So much for the HS producing discernment! Typical, you forget the adversary that can confuse and screw up stuff some of the time. Oh, to live in a perfect world now... And how did “the adversary” deceive them? Are you saying the deceived weren’t reading their bible and praying? If the deceived had the HS I still fail to see how they were deceived. After all, god/the HS is supposed to be greater than “the deceiver.” Edit: Your worldview has zero internal logic and consistency. The devil is just another convenient excuse pulled out of the hats of christians when they can offer no other explanation.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 9:20:09 GMT -5
You are forgetting the pharisee's piker. They believed in an afterlife. They believe in a soul and after life. Guess what they were Hebrews... Jesus and the Pharisees did not believe in the Greek versions of the soul seperating from the body and going to Heaven or Hell on death. They did however think that the body would be inspired again and resurrected here on this earth. Incorrect as usual ad nauseum...you'll see...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 9:23:51 GMT -5
Typical, you forget the adversary that can confuse and screw up stuff some of the time. Oh, to live in a perfect world now... And how did “the adversary” deceive them? Are you saying the deceived weren’t reading their bible and praying? If the deceived had the HS I still fail to see how they were deceived. After all, god/the HS is supposed to be greater than “the deceiver.” Edit: Your worldview has zero internal logic and consistency. The devil is just another convenient excuse pulled out of the hats of christians when they can offer no other explanation. You've lost your vision, sad really...some have come so close then lose it...tragic...you like the chuckite and his followers will find out anyways on the great day...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 9:25:06 GMT -5
It's not a parable chuckite. There will be more people in hell then pedos or their puppets... Hi Wally, I believe it is a parable, because it says in the Bible that Jesus only spoke to them in parables 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them: 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world. There are a few reasons why this is not a parable... when I have some time I'll list it again...
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Post by believingjesus on Aug 30, 2023 9:36:17 GMT -5
And how did “the adversary” deceive them? Are you saying the deceived weren’t reading their bible and praying? If the deceived had the HS I still fail to see how they were deceived. After all, god/the HS is supposed to be greater than “the deceiver.” Edit: Your worldview has zero internal logic and consistency. The devil is just another convenient excuse pulled out of the hats of christians when they can offer no other explanation. You've lost your vision, sad really...some have come so close then lose it...tragic...you like the chuckite and his followers will find out anyways on the great day... Nice dodge. It seems you can’t answer the question.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 9:40:19 GMT -5
You've lost your vision, sad really...some have come so close then lose it...tragic...you like the chuckite and his followers will find out anyways on the great day... Nice dodge. It seems you can’t answer the question. Already did, asleep this morning? If the adversary wasn't a problem why does he get mentioned as a problem? 2 + 2 = 4, not the new math where 2 + 2 = 5
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Post by maryhig on Aug 30, 2023 12:05:59 GMT -5
Listening to the messages from the platform at GV I honestly don't see how their message could be motivating. It was not encouraging and it was really depressing. I never realized just how much they focus on death and losing out when I went all the time. Years later listening to it again, I was really amazed at how depressing the message was. That was always my problem growing up. Doom and gloom. The message was to always be prepared to die. Could I not die with a smile on my face? Where's the joy? Where's the love? What did they mean though, when they said always be prepared to die? What context was it in? Are you sure they meant literally die?
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Post by maryhig on Aug 30, 2023 12:14:03 GMT -5
Typical, you forget the adversary that can confuse and screw up stuff some of the time. Oh, to live in a perfect world now... And how did “the adversary” deceive them? Are you saying the deceived weren’t reading their bible and praying? If the deceived had the HS I still fail to see how they were deceived. After all, god/the HS is supposed to be greater than “the deceiver.” Edit: Your worldview has zero internal logic and consistency. The devil is just another convenient excuse pulled out of the hats of christians when they can offer no other explanation. If they can do despicable things, then they don't have the Holy Spirit, they hide behind it, but they don't have it, that can have all the talk but they are full of wickedness if they hurt children like that.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 30, 2023 12:16:39 GMT -5
You are forgetting the pharisee's piker. They believed in an afterlife. They believe in a soul and after life. Guess what they were Hebrews... I agree to a certain extent. The afterlife and immortality of the soul for the Pharisees was resurrection back on this earth. From what I can understand the Pharisees like ancient Hebrews still had the same concept about the soul though, that being it did not live seperate to the body and ascend or decsend to the Greek versions of heaven and hell after physical death. The OT only ever talks about Sheol, and when a person is in Sheol their soul isn't alive or somewhere else. The soul is linked to breathing, so if you were dead so was your soul or It didn't exist if that's the right term. The soul separating from the body and going up or down is Greek philosophy and come from people like Plato. Jesus and the Pharisees did not believe in the Greek versions of the soul seperating from the body and going to Heaven or Hell on death. They did however think that the body would be inspired again and resurrected here on this earth. Jesus believed that we went straight to the father at the point of death, he said to the thief on the cross, today, you will be with me in paradise.
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Post by believingjesus on Aug 30, 2023 12:32:34 GMT -5
And how did “the adversary” deceive them? Are you saying the deceived weren’t reading their bible and praying? If the deceived had the HS I still fail to see how they were deceived. After all, god/the HS is supposed to be greater than “the deceiver.” Edit: Your worldview has zero internal logic and consistency. The devil is just another convenient excuse pulled out of the hats of christians when they can offer no other explanation. If they can do despicable things, then they don't have the Holy Spirit, they hide behind it, but they don't have it, that can have all the talk but they are full of wickedness if they hurt children like that. That’s not the point. The point is why do people with the HS get deceived or taken in by people like Dean Bruer? Surely, if the HS operates the way the Bible claims it does those possessing it would not be deceived! I think I’ve found the answer to my question. The F&Ws do not possess the HS.
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Post by chuck on Aug 30, 2023 19:37:49 GMT -5
I agree to a certain extent. The afterlife and immortality of the soul for the Pharisees was resurrection back on this earth. From what I can understand the Pharisees like ancient Hebrews still had the same concept about the soul though, that being it did not live seperate to the body and ascend or decsend to the Greek versions of heaven and hell after physical death. The OT only ever talks about Sheol, and when a person is in Sheol their soul isn't alive or somewhere else. The soul is linked to breathing, so if you were dead so was your soul or It didn't exist if that's the right term. The soul separating from the body and going up or down is Greek philosophy and come from people like Plato. Jesus and the Pharisees did not believe in the Greek versions of the soul seperating from the body and going to Heaven or Hell on death. They did however think that the body would be inspired again and resurrected here on this earth. Jesus believed that we went straight to the father at the point of death, he said to the thief on the cross, today, you will be with me in paradise. What you think that means and what I think that means differs greatly. Some Jews by the first century thought they would be ressurected back here on this earth. They did not think their body rotted away in a grave while their soul seperated from the body and went to some place called heaven.
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Post by chuck on Aug 30, 2023 19:42:22 GMT -5
Jesus and the Pharisees did not believe in the Greek versions of the soul seperating from the body and going to Heaven or Hell on death. They did however think that the body would be inspired again and resurrected here on this earth. Incorrect as usual ad nauseum...you'll see... Hollow threats again. All you can do is call people names and threaten them with thin air...... "You'll see", have you seen wally or do you know someone who has seen whatever it is I am apparently going to see??. A picture would be nice since its something I supposedly can see instead of baseless religious threats that you hand out to those who disagree with you.
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Post by Dan on Aug 30, 2023 22:50:52 GMT -5
If they can do despicable things, then they don't have the Holy Spirit, they hide behind it, but they don't have it, that can have all the talk but they are full of wickedness if they hurt children like that. That’s not the point. The point is why do people with the HS get deceived or taken in by people like Dean Bruer? Surely, if the HS operates the way the Bible claims it does those possessing it would not be deceived! I think I’ve found the answer to my question. The F&Ws do not possess the HS.
The Holy Spirit doesn't reveal the hidden sins or intentions of others to us. And being Spirit led is no guarantee of a Spiritual follower, our own desires often override the guidance of the H.S, e.g; Eve knew God's law, but she was still deceived by the devil, King David new adultery was a commandment, but he still fell to temptation with Bathsheba. The Spirit leads, He doesn't force or pull a person into subjection. People with knowledge of the Truth aren't usually deceived, they know right from wrong, but simply give in to sin.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2023 23:17:40 GMT -5
Incorrect as usual ad nauseum...you'll see... Hollow threats again. All you can do is call people names and threaten them with thin air...... "You'll see", have you seen wally or do you know someone who has seen whatever it is I am apparently going to see??. A picture would be nice since its something I supposedly can see instead of baseless religious threats that you hand out to those who disagree with you. You are more than slightly paranoid, if you are right as you say you are Hebraic Scholar you should be laughing... It's not about anything I can do, talk to God and sort it out... Good luck atheist you'll need it...
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Post by Annan on Aug 31, 2023 6:58:34 GMT -5
That was always my problem growing up. Doom and gloom. The message was to always be prepared to die. Could I not die with a smile on my face? Where's the joy? Where's the love? What did they mean though, when they said always be prepared to die? What context was it in? Are you sure they meant literally die? Yes they meant literally die. I was told to always be prepared to meet my maker. As a teenager, if I wanted to go to a dance at the local community center (a small town), I was lectured on how sinful it was to not keep my mind on god. That minute of frivolity could spell my doom in the afterlife. Always, always, always be prepared to literally die. No room for joy. Why could I not be joyful in the things god created? Did god not create music? Someone needs to read the psalms. Maybe it was not me who didn't understand.
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Post by christiansburg on Aug 31, 2023 9:08:27 GMT -5
Many of the workers could use a course in public speaking. Some of the younger workers with education past high school do have some speaking ability as they make eye contact with the audience and have a message with an introduction, presentation, and a definite close. The audience should be left with some type of feeling after hearing the sermon. The feeling could be inspirational, motivational, or even total disagreement as those are all feelings. I have spent many hours looking at my watch and waiting for the time for the worker to wrap up the sermon and move on to another worker or dismissal. Some of our workers would never make it in a denominational church as the elders of the church could have them removed. I look at the speaking list before I attend the meeting and select the workers who have some speaking ability. I am old and have trouble hearing the sister workers speak and usually get little from their sermon. The sermon should start by telling the audience what they are going to tell them before telling them and then telling them what they told them prior to the close. You should react by being emotionally moved, sad, happy, mad, or maybe nothing, which is sometimes the case. It sounds like you’re into storytelling, and I’d have to agree you are. Irvin Grey said in his book "Shape of the Shapeless Movement" that workers, as well as many ministers, often speak in vague platitudes. While sermons may be inspirational at times it often fails in teaching the real meaning of Scriptures. I agree that a course in public speaking and arranging the subject matter is important but you could go too far with that approach. Some of the best sermons I have heard over my lifetime have come from those who have had real life experiences even though they have, in some cases, had no real education.
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Post by mountain on Aug 31, 2023 12:29:48 GMT -5
One thing that Wally unfailingly prioritises is what Jesus (God's voice) said on any matter over and above anyone else, regardless of the source. Jesus did give us an example of what occurs after death. Wally correctly raises the issue of: The Rich Man and Lazarus in Luke's Gospel ch. 16. 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”
As Wally correctly points out, this is an account which occurs between the first and second coming of Christ. Jesus is using factual information to tell a parable or a true story (opinions differ) about what happens after death. It is clear there is consciousness after death, both for those in Christ and those outwith. Call it soul or whatever, but it lives on. Jesus would not use false information to highlight a story, irrespective of whether it is true or not. Strong's Number - H5315 Hebrew: נפשׁ Transliteration: nephesh Pronunciation: neh'-fesh Definition: From H5314; properly a breathing {creature} that {is} animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a {literal} accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - {any} {appetite} {beast} {body} {breath} {creature} X dead ({-ly}) {desire} X [dis-] {contented} X {fish} {ghost} + {greedy} {he} heart ({-y}) ({hath} X jeopardy of) life (X in {jeopardy}) {lust} {man} {me} {mind} {mortality} {one} {own} {person} {pleasure} ({her-} {him-} {my-} thy-) {self} them (your) {-selves} + {slay} {soul} + {tablet} {they} {thing} (X she) {will} X would have it. KJV Usage: soul (475x), life (117x), person (29x), mind (15x), heart (15x), creature (9x), body (8x), himself (8x), yourselves (6x), dead (5x), will (4x), desire (4x), man (3x), themselves (3x), any (3x), appetite (2x), misc (47x). Occurs: 753 In verses: 683 Look at a strongs concordance and look at how H5315 is used in the OT. Can you find anywhere where H5315 is described as something being separate from the body but residing within the body until death, and then it leaves the body upon death to go to some other place or realm because it is immortal?? Let's work on the sensible premise that the words of Jesus far outweigh any interpretation contained in Strong's. Jesus's account of Lazarus and the rich man isn't about a separation of body and soul, but a continuation of the life of the person. This life is what God breathed into a receptacle in the beginning. The person is the life within, or soul if you like, which God inserted in a lifeless vessel. Jesus words show that the life that God breathed into a human vessel continues after death. There is no other interpretation possible, unless we feel that Jesus was just making things up. As Wally constantly tells us, answers lie in simplicity, not complexity. Wally is correct to point out that Jesus clearly stated that; 'when Lazarus died, the angels carried HIM to Abraham's side, NOT his soul, etc. It was Lazarus's being the angels carried to Abraham's side. The outer haman shell is not even a consideration. There was no separation. It was a continuation. The dust was shaken off to return to dust. Cleansing if you like, not separation. (Wally)
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Post by snow on Aug 31, 2023 15:11:46 GMT -5
That was always my problem growing up. Doom and gloom. The message was to always be prepared to die. Could I not die with a smile on my face? Where's the joy? Where's the love? What did they mean though, when they said always be prepared to die? What context was it in? Are you sure they meant literally die? They meant literally to die. Don't lose out. You might be killed going home from convention was exactly what we heard at GV
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Post by Pragmatic on Aug 31, 2023 16:30:03 GMT -5
What did they mean though, when they said always be prepared to die? What context was it in? Are you sure they meant literally die? They meant literally to die. Don't lose out. You might be killed going home from convention was exactly what we heard at GV Yeah, we had an idiot worker here many years ago, (AL) who preached that Skylab could fall on you, and best to not have it happen at a dance, or rugby match, or cinema. He also preached that if Jesus came back to earth in our lifetime, he wouldn't be looking in these places for "his own". Another sister worker (AB) also preached the same stuff.
A total mis-use of eschatology, or apocalyptic preaching.
I think these two workers had a combined IQ of about 150
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