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Post by fixit on Aug 31, 2023 17:06:33 GMT -5
They meant literally to die. Don't lose out. You might be killed going home from convention was exactly what we heard at GV Yeah, we had an idiot worker here many years ago, (AL) who preached that Skylab could fall on you, and best to not have it happen at a dance, or rugby match, or cinema. He also preached that if Jesus came back to earth in our lifetime, he wouldn't be looking in these places for "his own". Another sister worker (AB) also preached the same stuff. A total mis-use of eschatology, or apocalyptic preaching. I think these two workers had a combined IQ of about 150
That's what fundamentalism (law) does to people. It's the opposite to love, joy, peace etc that is the fruit of the spirit. 1 John 4:17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness on the day of judgment, because as he is, so are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear; for fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not reached perfection in love.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2023 22:18:18 GMT -5
Wally the greeks already had their ideas about such things during and before NT era. It would be completely ignorant to not acknowledge their interpretations of the scripture were based in their own philosophy. The Hebrews picked Greek to convey their messages literal or metaphorical they being the originators were satisfied with that, if you are not, no one cares... Translation is not interpretation. Good luck you'll need it... Now THAT is REALLY weird.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2023 22:21:02 GMT -5
Wally, If you know the concepts underlying words in a given culture, once translated you can still apply the concepts, what you are not understanding is the concepts you are applying to words in scripture are not original Hebrew concepts but rather greek ones regardless of the language. It helps to get your head around the how the concepts were conveyed in the Hebrew, culture, the hieroglyphics were like small comic strips, each symbol had its own concept. Unless you can grasp these you missapply what words mean. What you and Dan are doing is applying western concepts to the words with no thought to the original. Couple this together with the art of storytelling to pass on wisdom and the Hebrews way of thinking about the function of language not the form you will begin to see the widsom within the words of scripture regardless of the language it is written in. You are up the crick without a paddle... The Hebrews would have worked with the translators for the Greek. Hebraic mindset scholars would know this... And you understand Hebrew hieroglyphics? Do tell... Good luck you'll need it... Yes, up the creek -- getting to the SOURCE.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2023 22:24:04 GMT -5
When did I say the greeks invented hell??. To the Hebrew people when you died you were a dead soul. Your soul didn’t go anywhere. To the greeks your soul left your body and went up or down basically. Two totally different philosophies. So which philosophy are you applying to the scripture you have quoted, the Greeks version or the Hebrews?. And when you have decided which philosophy you are going to apply to the soul how does that work in conjunction with spirit as one verse you quoted said spirit?. I find it really confusing that on one hand you say there is no reality in myth when you clearly believe some mythological stories as literally true. I don't see you arguing that there are windows in the firmament? why not because its written as clearly as other things you believe are literally true but yet can provide nothing outside ofnthe words on a page to support the claim?, could it be perhaps that you can see with your own two eyes there are no windows in the firmament so never give those types of verses a second thought but yet you are quite happy to defend things that physically do not happen now and most likely back then all because you cannot verify with your own eyes but rather give you the hope of never ending life...... There is most definitely reality in myth, all you have to do is forget abiut trying to make them physicalpy literal and see how they represent people lived experiences, they are truer than true as the experiences described within these mythological stories are true across time. Noah for instance, building his ark out of a resilient material that was water tight so even the worst of flood couldn't drown him, this is still true tonthis very day, I know many people today who have shown the ability to rise above things that most definitely would have drowned people who hadn't prepared an ark....this is the reality of this mythological story. There is always a story behind the story dan, Hebrew's didn't waste words like we do, If they mention Siloam it wasn't just to tell people a physical location. Which is why I ask what was Siloam to them?. Stop reading the words like a westerner and read them through the eyes of Hebrew, it is a reflection of their culture and thought process after all...... You are forgetting the pharisee's piker. They believed in an afterlife. They believe in a soul and after life. Guess what they were Hebrews... The Pharisees got that idea from the Persians during the captivity, not from historical Hebrew.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2023 22:25:12 GMT -5
You are up the crick without a paddle... The Hebrews would have worked with the translators for the Greek. Hebraic mindset scholars would know this... And you understand Hebrew hieroglyphics? Do tell... Good luck you'll need it... Yea Moses probably helped the translators, he was known for doing things after he died...... The internet is a wonderful way to source new knowledge, especially when you search beyond apologetic websites....... You seem to have a gambling addiction, you are always going on about luck.....but it stands to reason because you did tell me once the odds of going to heaven or hell. Moses even wrote the story of his disappearance from the worldly scene.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2023 22:29:22 GMT -5
I still contend that there is no reality in a myth. It may be a fake story to illustrate a moral lesson, but a myth by definition is a false belief. The bible is only a book of puzzling mythological stories to those who won't believe it. When it says that Jesus restored a man's sight, its not a symbolic, metaphorical, or figurative reference that means something else. Its means exactly what it says.
Not all myths are totally false. There's another definition too.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2023 22:40:12 GMT -5
Yea Moses probably helped the translators, he was known for doing things after he died...... The internet is a wonderful way to source new knowledge, especially when you search beyond apologetic websites....... You seem to have a gambling addiction, you are always going on about luck.....but it stands to reason because you did tell me once the odds of going to heaven or hell. Moses even wrote the story of his disappearance from the worldly scene. That was most likely Joshua...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 31, 2023 22:45:39 GMT -5
You are forgetting the pharisee's piker. They believed in an afterlife. They believe in a soul and after life. Guess what they were Hebrews... The Pharisees got that idea from the Persians during the captivity, not from historical Hebrew. Nope, everything up to at least Isaiah was before the Persians...there are many references to an afterlife and soul till then in the Hebrew world...
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2023 22:47:33 GMT -5
Moses even wrote the story of his disappearance from the worldly scene. That was most likely Joshua... Moses disappeared too. Everyone does, sooner or later.
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 31, 2023 22:48:55 GMT -5
The Pharisees got that idea from the Persians during the captivity, not from historical Hebrew. Nope, everything up to at least Isaiah was before the Persians...there are many references to an afterlife and soul till then in the Hebrew world... Yes, the afterlife for law abiding Jews. No one else. Just dead and gone.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2023 1:59:26 GMT -5
Nope, everything up to at least Isaiah was before the Persians...there are many references to an afterlife and soul till then in the Hebrew world... Yes, the afterlife for law abiding Jews. No one else. Just dead and gone. Nope, study better...
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Post by chuck on Sept 1, 2023 8:34:04 GMT -5
Strong's Number - H5315 Hebrew: נפשׁ Transliteration: nephesh Pronunciation: neh'-fesh Definition: From H5314; properly a breathing {creature} that {is} animal or (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a {literal} accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental): - {any} {appetite} {beast} {body} {breath} {creature} X dead ({-ly}) {desire} X [dis-] {contented} X {fish} {ghost} + {greedy} {he} heart ({-y}) ({hath} X jeopardy of) life (X in {jeopardy}) {lust} {man} {me} {mind} {mortality} {one} {own} {person} {pleasure} ({her-} {him-} {my-} thy-) {self} them (your) {-selves} + {slay} {soul} + {tablet} {they} {thing} (X she) {will} X would have it. KJV Usage: soul (475x), life (117x), person (29x), mind (15x), heart (15x), creature (9x), body (8x), himself (8x), yourselves (6x), dead (5x), will (4x), desire (4x), man (3x), themselves (3x), any (3x), appetite (2x), misc (47x). Occurs: 753 In verses: 683 Look at a strongs concordance and look at how H5315 is used in the OT. Can you find anywhere where H5315 is described as something being separate from the body but residing within the body until death, and then it leaves the body upon death to go to some other place or realm because it is immortal?? Let's work on the sensible premise that the words of Jesus far outweigh any interpretation contained in Strong's. Jesus's account of Lazarus and the rich man isn't about a separation of body and soul, but a continuation of the life of the person. This life is what God breathed into a receptacle in the beginning. The person is the life within, or soul if you like, which God inserted in a lifeless vessel. Jesus words show that the life that God breathed into a human vessel continues after death. There is no other interpretation possible, unless we feel that Jesus was just making things up. As Wally constantly tells us, answers lie in simplicity, not complexity. Wally is correct to point out that Jesus clearly stated that; 'when Lazarus died, the angels carried HIM to Abraham's side, NOT his soul, etc. It was Lazarus's being the angels carried to Abraham's side. The outer haman shell is not even a consideration. There was no separation. It was a continuation. The dust was shaken off to return to dust. Cleansing if you like, not separation. (Wally) I cant take your attempt of a sensible premise seriously at all. You want to ignore factual information in favour of Greek influences and concepts of words. Jesus was taught from and he taught others from the OT and you want deliberately dismiss anything that is critical to understanding his world view. It's most likely the Luke 16 story is Luke's parable, if you cared to understand the Hebrew concepts of the soul and how they used it you would consider this. Like I said, get a strongs, search H5315 and see how they used it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2023 8:50:03 GMT -5
Let's work on the sensible premise that the words of Jesus far outweigh any interpretation contained in Strong's. Jesus's account of Lazarus and the rich man isn't about a separation of body and soul, but a continuation of the life of the person. This life is what God breathed into a receptacle in the beginning. The person is the life within, or soul if you like, which God inserted in a lifeless vessel. Jesus words show that the life that God breathed into a human vessel continues after death. There is no other interpretation possible, unless we feel that Jesus was just making things up. As Wally constantly tells us, answers lie in simplicity, not complexity. Wally is correct to point out that Jesus clearly stated that; 'when Lazarus died, the angels carried HIM to Abraham's side, NOT his soul, etc. It was Lazarus's being the angels carried to Abraham's side. The outer haman shell is not even a consideration. There was no separation. It was a continuation. The dust was shaken off to return to dust. Cleansing if you like, not separation. (Wally) I cant take your attempt of a sensible premise seriously at all. You want to ignore factual information in favour of Greek influences and concepts of words. Jesus was taught from and he taught others from the OT and you want deliberately dismiss anything that is critical to understanding his world view. It's most likely the Luke 16 story is Luke's parable, if you cared to understand the Hebrew concepts of the soul and how they used it you would consider this. Like I said, get a strongs, search H5315 and see how they used it. Keep sticking with the sadducees at it won't end good...
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Post by chuck on Sept 1, 2023 8:54:22 GMT -5
Yea Moses probably helped the translators, he was known for doing things after he died...... The internet is a wonderful way to source new knowledge, especially when you search beyond apologetic websites....... You seem to have a gambling addiction, you are always going on about luck.....but it stands to reason because you did tell me once the odds of going to heaven or hell. Moses even wrote the story of his disappearance from the worldly scene. He is a talented guy!
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Post by chuck on Sept 1, 2023 9:29:28 GMT -5
I cant take your attempt of a sensible premise seriously at all. You want to ignore factual information in favour of Greek influences and concepts of words. Jesus was taught from and he taught others from the OT and you want deliberately dismiss anything that is critical to understanding his world view. It's most likely the Luke 16 story is Luke's parable, if you cared to understand the Hebrew concepts of the soul and how they used it you would consider this. Like I said, get a strongs, search H5315 and see how they used it. Keep sticking with the sadducees at it won't end good... All I can say is understand Judaism and it's concept of the soul. The Sadducees did not believe in ressurection. The Pharisee's did, they both however did not believe the soul inhabited the body like the Greeks. You are looking at it from a perspective based in Greek philosophy so cannot differentiate the differences between differing beliefs about ressurection while both having the same beliefs about the soul.
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Post by chuck on Sept 1, 2023 9:36:02 GMT -5
What did they mean though, when they said always be prepared to die? What context was it in? Are you sure they meant literally die? They meant literally to die. Don't lose out. You might be killed going home from convention was exactly what we heard at GV They still use these scare tactics.
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Post by mountain on Sept 1, 2023 10:13:59 GMT -5
Let's work on the sensible premise that the words of Jesus far outweigh any interpretation contained in Strong's. Jesus's account of Lazarus and the rich man isn't about a separation of body and soul, but a continuation of the life of the person. This life is what God breathed into a receptacle in the beginning. The person is the life within, or soul if you like, which God inserted in a lifeless vessel. Jesus words show that the life that God breathed into a human vessel continues after death. There is no other interpretation possible, unless we feel that Jesus was just making things up. As Wally constantly tells us, answers lie in simplicity, not complexity. Wally is correct to point out that Jesus clearly stated that; 'when Lazarus died, the angels carried HIM to Abraham's side, NOT his soul, etc. It was Lazarus's being the angels carried to Abraham's side. The outer haman shell is not even a consideration. There was no separation. It was a continuation. The dust was shaken off to return to dust. Cleansing if you like, not separation. (Wally) I cant take your attempt of a sensible premise seriously at all. You want to ignore factual information in favour of Greek influences and concepts of words. Jesus was taught from and he taught others from the OT and you want deliberately dismiss anything that is critical to understanding his world view.It's pretty obvious what Jesus was saying in his related account of Lazarus and the rich man. So simple a child can understand. You complicate the obvious with your distraction.It's most likely the Luke 16 story is Luke's parable, if you cared to understand the Hebrew concepts of the soul and how they used it you would consider this. And it most likely isn't a parable. If it is a parable it is the only one where he named anyone. For myself I don't know whether it is a parable or a true story. It is immaterial. What is important is that Jesus used the account to tell us the truth in plain words. It's not difficult to understand unless you are distracted.
Like I said, get a strongs, search H5315 and see how they used it. I have a copy of Strong's. However I don't use a computer when an abacus will do. I am a simple minded person. If you can get Wally behind your point of view, then I am more likely to listen.
Why seek an antelope when a brace of partridge will do?
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Post by snow on Sept 1, 2023 15:14:14 GMT -5
They meant literally to die. Don't lose out. You might be killed going home from convention was exactly what we heard at GV Yeah, we had an idiot worker here many years ago, (AL) who preached that Skylab could fall on you, and best to not have it happen at a dance, or rugby match, or cinema. He also preached that if Jesus came back to earth in our lifetime, he wouldn't be looking in these places for "his own". Another sister worker (AB) also preached the same stuff. A total mis-use of eschatology, or apocalyptic preaching. I think these two workers had a combined IQ of about 150
The BC overseer is the one that said that and he was talking to those who were sitting in a 'testing' meeting. Saturday night. Talk about fear mongering to make your 'choice'. I understand a little bit better now why I was shaking and crying when I stood up at 8 years old.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 1, 2023 17:39:11 GMT -5
Keep sticking with the sadducees at it won't end good... All I can say is understand Judaism and it's concept of the soul. The Sadducees did not believe in ressurection. The Pharisee's did, they both however did not believe the soul inhabited the body like the Greeks. You are looking at it from a perspective based in Greek philosophy so cannot differentiate the differences between differing beliefs about ressurection while both having the same beliefs about the soul. Incorrect on the pharisees and some of Jews including Christ...as usual...
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Post by ForeverFree on Sept 1, 2023 18:18:41 GMT -5
Yeah, we had an idiot worker here many years ago, (AL) who preached that Skylab could fall on you, and best to not have it happen at a dance, or rugby match, or cinema. He also preached that if Jesus came back to earth in our lifetime, he wouldn't be looking in these places for "his own". Another sister worker (AB) also preached the same stuff. A total mis-use of eschatology, or apocalyptic preaching. I think these two workers had a combined IQ of about 150
The BC overseer is the one that said that and he was talking to those who were sitting in a 'testing' meeting. Saturday night. Talk about fear mongering to make your 'choice'. I understand a little bit better now why I was shaking and crying when I stood up at 8 years old. I HATED the Saturday night convention meeting when I became of age to "be about my father's business". I knew what everyone was expecting me to do, and I had no desire to do it. Eventually, I reluctantly gave in; not because of my heart's desire, but as a temporary measure until I was living on my own. Didn't take long before I was Forever Free. No regrets.
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Post by Dan on Sept 2, 2023 4:57:41 GMT -5
The BC overseer is the one that said that and he was talking to those who were sitting in a 'testing' meeting. Saturday night. Talk about fear mongering to make your 'choice'. I understand a little bit better now why I was shaking and crying when I stood up at 8 years old. I HATED the Saturday night convention meeting when I became of age to "be about my father's business". I knew what everyone was expecting me to do, and I had no desire to do it. Eventually, I reluctantly gave in; not because of my heart's desire, but as a temporary measure until I was living on my own. Didn't take long before I was Forever Free. No regrets.
It felt like the right thing when I professed at 15 yrs old.. I was genuinely convinced it was the way set-up by Jesus. But over the next few years I began to question the rules and found no biblical support for much of it. After leaving mtgs, I still admired the sincerity of the friends and missed the fellowship. It was the denial of the divinity of Christ and the trinity that cemented my separation. Claiming to be Spirit-Led while denying Christ is on the throne is an oxymoron, and might be the root cause of the problematic situation hitting the church now. People can be sincere while being sincerely wrong. I still hope they re-access some of their core beliefs and stop emphasizing superficial things that don't matter.
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Post by Annan on Sept 2, 2023 9:54:53 GMT -5
Yeah, we had an idiot worker here many years ago, (AL) who preached that Skylab could fall on you, and best to not have it happen at a dance, or rugby match, or cinema. He also preached that if Jesus came back to earth in our lifetime, he wouldn't be looking in these places for "his own". Another sister worker (AB) also preached the same stuff. A total mis-use of eschatology, or apocalyptic preaching. I think these two workers had a combined IQ of about 150
The BC overseer is the one that said that and he was talking to those who were sitting in a 'testing' meeting. Saturday night. Talk about fear mongering to make your 'choice'. I understand a little bit better now why I was shaking and crying when I stood up at 8 years old. That's what my sister said about her decision to stand up. Surprisingly my parents were upset that "the workers will be coming around again". My sister realized she was simply overcome with emotion. My parents made sure the workers knew that and stopped them in their tracks. I got a lot of mixed messages growing up.
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Post by mountain on Sept 2, 2023 12:18:22 GMT -5
I HATED the Saturday night convention meeting when I became of age to "be about my father's business". I knew what everyone was expecting me to do, and I had no desire to do it. Eventually, I reluctantly gave in; not because of my heart's desire, but as a temporary measure until I was living on my own. Didn't take long before I was Forever Free. No regrets. It felt like the right thing when I professed at 15 yrs old.. I was genuinely convinced it was the way set-up by Jesus. But over the next few years I began to question the rules and found no biblical support for much of it. After leaving mtgs, I still admired the sincerity of the friends and missed the fellowship. It was the denial of the divinity of Christ and the trinity that cemented my separation. Claiming to be Spirit-Led while denying Christ is on the throne is an oxymoron, and might be the root cause of the problematic situation hitting the church now. People can be sincere while being sincerely wrong. I still hope they re-access some of their core beliefs and stop emphasizing superficial things that don't matter.
I had purposed not to get involved in doctrinal exchanges as they were proving pointless and to be quite honest, in recent times the CSA and other abuse issues have rightly captured my attention. However, on issues such as that highlighted above, I sincerely believe that the FaWs have the true identity of Christ right, and is one of the main reasons I cut them some slack. I do not intend to engage in any discussions about the matter at this time, but will only state my firm beliefs. Jesus is NOT God Almighty, nor even a third part of God. He is, was and always will be the human being Son of God. The trinity is a black lie drawn like a curtain or veil over Christianity in the c. 3rd century by the evolving Catholic Church by the power of its father, satan, to hide the true entirely human being identity of Jesus, in order to present him in a false image as part of a pagan triune god. There is NO oxymoron. God who is also the Father, gave the victorious Jesus all power in Heaven and on Earth (through whom the Father continues to work), including the power to send God's Holy Spirit to his faithful in his stead.
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Post by snow on Sept 2, 2023 15:26:04 GMT -5
The BC overseer is the one that said that and he was talking to those who were sitting in a 'testing' meeting. Saturday night. Talk about fear mongering to make your 'choice'. I understand a little bit better now why I was shaking and crying when I stood up at 8 years old. That's what my sister said about her decision to stand up. Surprisingly my parents were upset that "the workers will be coming around again". My sister realized she was simply overcome with emotion. My parents made sure the workers knew that and stopped them in their tracks. I got a lot of mixed messages growing up. Wow yes I can see that. Upset their child professed yet I imagine you were also told it was the only way to be saved at the same time?
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 2, 2023 18:59:36 GMT -5
Yes, the afterlife for law abiding Jews. No one else. Just dead and gone. Nope, study better... I did.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2023 21:19:10 GMT -5
Then you are confused. Not unheard of...
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 3, 2023 1:37:48 GMT -5
Then you are confused. Not unheard of... Well, I guess most Jews are confused as well.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2023 1:40:29 GMT -5
Then you are confused. Not unheard of... Well, I guess most Jews are confused as well. Pretty sure Jesus knew they were too...
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