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Post by fixit on Jun 15, 2023 19:10:58 GMT -5
The Pharisees were the keepers of the law so when Jesus doesn't think the Pharisees are strict enough in keeping the law, that says to me that he believes it needs to be more rigid. Can you give some examples of what makes you think that?
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Post by snow on Jun 16, 2023 14:01:57 GMT -5
Jesus never said that the Pharisees weren't strict enough, he said they were hypocrites, "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men" (Matthew 23: 1-5). Jesus came to "write the law in our hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33), whereby simply wanting to kill or desiring to commit adultery was sinful.
Your correct, hell is the other side of Paradise, its where atheist and non-Christians go to await judgement. Everyone goes to the grave (Sheol or pit), but the destination of their spirit immediately goes to hell/Hades or paradise. Hell is not the Lake of Fire, nor is it purgatory (Catholicism), hell is the waiting room for judgement & the Lake of Fire (Luke 16). Gehenna is also a reference to hell/hades. Hell fire comes after judgement, its the second death in the Lake of Fire.
I still say that Jesus didn't think the temple priests interpreted the law rigidly enough. He taught that not only doing the physical act was against the laws but just thinking about the act was the same thing. Adultery is an example. As far as hell is concerned, it appears that everyone has a different take on what happens when we die. Some say all non Christians to to hell and the lake of fire immediately after dying. Judgement comes immediately after dying in their interpretation. I know supporters of the Roman Catholic belief cite biblical passages in which there are intimations of the three major components of purgatory: prayer for the dead, an active interim state between death and resurrection, and a purifying fire after death. So it is a kind of waiting room for them too. A place you go to be cleansed? They often say that those who were never given last rites go to purgatory to be cleansed so they can at some point enter heaven. I'm not sure what you mean about a second death where you go to a lake of fire and not right after you've been judged. However, there are so many different beliefs about what hell is, who goes etc. that any one of the interpretations is as likely as the next. For me, I die, and that's it. Only Christians go to hell if they're not a 'good enough' Christian.
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Post by snow on Jun 16, 2023 14:08:25 GMT -5
The Pharisees were the keepers of the law so when Jesus doesn't think the Pharisees are strict enough in keeping the law, that says to me that he believes it needs to be more rigid. Can you give some examples of what makes you think that? Jesus took the interpretation of the laws a step beyond what the Hebrew priests etc. saw them. They believed that the laws only applied to the physical act. For example you had to commit adultery to have broken the law. Jesus said that you broke that law if you even thought about doing it. He had a more rigid interpretation of the laws of Moses than traditionally was taught. Here is a link to a page that talks about that. www.easyenglish.bible/bible-study/jesus-life/ruler_problem.htm In Matthew, we read what Jesus taught on a mountain. We call this ‘the Sermon on the Mount.’ Jesus taught people that the law was about more than our behaviour. For example, one command is: ‘Do not murder’. Jesus taught that anger against other people would break this law. The command against adultery included wrong sexy thoughts when we look at anyone (Matthew 5:27,28). These commands are like words on a sign. These commands show us how to live. They point to God’s standard. God is perfect, and he wants us to be perfect too. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus showed that the *Pharisees had wrong ideas about the law. They said that behaviour is important. They thought that the ceremonies of religion were important. They did not think about the thoughts of men. Jesus showed that often they wanted to avoid the correct meaning of the law. (Matthew 15:3-9)"
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Post by getreal on Jun 16, 2023 17:08:52 GMT -5
So to recap what Jesus really hates/has no respect for is looking the part but being something different on the inside and hypocritically judging others. So, moving back to the topic of rules (that vary the world over often) and the power imbalance between workers and friends and between male and female? Can I say something that struck me funny about rules once upon a time? I was in a region that I kid you not, banned sisterworkers from wearing decorative scarfs. It amused me hugely. I imagined the border between this region and a neighboring region and with one step I could wear a scarf and one step over I could get called to the office so to speak. It messed with my mind. I think we could all agree, this trivializes anyone’s faith. It’s insulting. It is over reach. It is overly controlling. I remember a sister worker getting chastised about a triangular V in her dress that pointed to her V region. This would be too much for the brothers. So change is happening and most would call it progress, but at whose pace? I hear now of some encouraging friends to just break from all these man made rules. Is it really happening? Remember all the stories that would be told to terrify those who might miss a meeting or defy a rule…you are your couch and you get shot or some other like disaster brought on by disobedience. If the friends revolt en mass and no lightning strikes will people realize they are actually free?
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Post by openingact34 on Jun 16, 2023 17:27:11 GMT -5
So to recap what Jesus really hates/has no respect for is looking the part but being something different on the inside and hypocritically judging others. So, moving back to the topic of rules (that vary the world over often) and the power imbalance between workers and friends and between male and female? Can I say something that struck me funny about rules once upon a time? I was in a region that I kid you not, banned sisterworkers from wearing decorative scarfs. It amused me hugely. I imagined the border between this region and a neighboring region and with one step I could wear a scarf and one step over I could get called to the office so to speak. It messed with my mind. I think we could all agree, this trivializes anyone’s faith. It’s insulting. It is over reach. It is overly controlling. I remember a sister worker getting chastised about a triangular V in her dress that pointed to her V region. This would be too much for the brothers. So change is happening and most would call it progress, but at whose pace? I hear now of some encouraging friends to just break from all these man made rules. Is it really happening? Remember all the stories that would be told to terrify those who might miss a meeting or defy a rule…you are your couch and you get shot or some other like disaster brought on by disobedience. If the friends revolt en mass and no lightning strikes will people realize they are actually free? Banning decorative scarves seems scriptural to me. I think that the more you read the Bible, the more you understand the bullying, threatening, controlling ministry. They are acting out the behaviors that God's anointed ones exhibited down through the ages. From Moses and Aaron to Peter and Paul to Dale and Barry.
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Post by getreal on Jun 16, 2023 17:40:02 GMT -5
You are funny. I find some of the posters mix up the old and new testaments, although to be honest some of the posts are so long I skim a lot. But the old law, that Jesus nailed to the cross, was a school master. It was hard. Black and white. It made you conscious of sin. A hard master. Cruel in its way. But jesus fulfilled the old law and brought in a new law. Love. And the hope of being freed from the burden and stain of sin. Some here still look to the old dead law for current, relevant guidance. It is only relevant through the lens of the New Testament. Anyway, this is the theory in short. It’s nothing I currently rely on but I can still sing the song. The point is, of course, because the law was hard, those who lived under that law are not examples for us today. I will get blow back for that. But even in New Testament times I cannot see evidence or support for the picky little do’s and don’ts we have endured and still do. I can’t see the apostles or paul or jesus concerning themselves with details of dress or how people conducted their day to day lives in terms of sports, entertainment.
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Post by fixit on Jun 16, 2023 18:59:23 GMT -5
Can you give some examples of what makes you think that? Jesus took the interpretation of the laws a step beyond what the Hebrew priests etc. saw them. They believed that the laws only applied to the physical act. For example you had to commit adultery to have broken the law. Jesus said that you broke that law if you even thought about doing it. He had a more rigid interpretation of the laws of Moses than traditionally was taught. Here is a link to a page that talks about that. www.easyenglish.bible/bible-study/jesus-life/ruler_problem.htm In Matthew, we read what Jesus taught on a mountain. We call this ‘the Sermon on the Mount.’ Jesus taught people that the law was about more than our behaviour. For example, one command is: ‘Do not murder’. Jesus taught that anger against other people would break this law. The command against adultery included wrong sexy thoughts when we look at anyone (Matthew 5:27,28). These commands are like words on a sign. These commands show us how to live. They point to God’s standard. God is perfect, and he wants us to be perfect too. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus showed that the *Pharisees had wrong ideas about the law. They said that behaviour is important. They thought that the ceremonies of religion were important. They did not think about the thoughts of men. Jesus showed that often they wanted to avoid the correct meaning of the law. (Matthew 15:3-9)" I don't see this as a more rigid interpretation of the laws of Moses. I see it more as having the spirit of the law in our hearts rather than an outward obedience to the letter of the law. All too often workers teach that their organisation is God's kingdom, and members are esteemed in proportion to their adoration of this man-made kingdom. We are seeing the fruits of that teaching more clearly than ever these days. Instead, workers should be teaching about God's kingship within our hearts. This is what Jesus was trying to convey. If God's kingdom is enthroned within our hearts we'll be focused on (having, living, being) the character of God as expressed by Jesus (please don't bring up the atrocities of the bible - that is an entirely different discussion). We will then have the love of God (his character) within our hearts so the evil thoughts Jesus referred to that lead to sin will be in subjection to the kingdom of God within. It's actually much easier than trying to avoid sin without having the love of God in our hearts. People show by their actions whether God is on the throne of their hearts. John 5:39 “You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is they that testify on my behalf. 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 41 I do not accept glory from humans. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God in you.
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Post by openingact34 on Jun 16, 2023 19:34:23 GMT -5
I can’t see the apostles or paul or jesus concerning themselves with details of dress or how people conducted their day to day lives in terms of sports, entertainment. Now you are the funny one!
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Post by getreal on Jun 16, 2023 20:15:19 GMT -5
I can’t see the apostles or paul or jesus concerning themselves with details of dress or how people conducted their day to day lives in terms of sports, entertainment. Now you are the funny one! 😇
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2023 21:17:22 GMT -5
Jesus never said that the Pharisees weren't strict enough, he said they were hypocrites, "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men" (Matthew 23: 1-5). Jesus came to "write the law in our hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33), whereby simply wanting to kill or desiring to commit adultery was sinful.
Your correct, hell is the other side of Paradise, its where atheist and non-Christians go to await judgement. Everyone goes to the grave (Sheol or pit), but the destination of their spirit immediately goes to hell/Hades or paradise. Hell is not the Lake of Fire, nor is it purgatory (Catholicism), hell is the waiting room for judgement & the Lake of Fire (Luke 16). Gehenna is also a reference to hell/hades. Hell fire comes after judgement, its the second death in the Lake of Fire.
I still say that Jesus didn't think the temple priests interpreted the law rigidly enough. He taught that not only doing the physical act was against the laws but just thinking about the act was the same thing. Adultery is an example. As far as hell is concerned, it appears that everyone has a different take on what happens when we die. Some say all non Christians to to hell and the lake of fire immediately after dying. Judgement comes immediately after dying in their interpretation. I know supporters of the Roman Catholic belief cite biblical passages in which there are intimations of the three major components of purgatory: prayer for the dead, an active interim state between death and resurrection, and a purifying fire after death. So it is a kind of waiting room for them too. A place you go to be cleansed? They often say that those who were never given last rites go to purgatory to be cleansed so they can at some point enter heaven. I'm not sure what you mean about a second death where you go to a lake of fire and not right after you've been judged. However, there are so many different beliefs about what hell is, who goes etc. that any one of the interpretations is as likely as the next. For me, I die, and that's it. Only Christians go to hell if they're not a 'good enough' Christian. Christ mentioned that they were sticking strictly to rules (plus added ones) Not sure that's not rigid.
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Post by getreal on Jun 16, 2023 21:50:25 GMT -5
Ridged or rigid? I am sooooo confused 🙃
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Post by Dan on Jun 17, 2023 2:41:22 GMT -5
Jesus never said that the Pharisees weren't strict enough, he said they were hypocrites, "Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men" (Matthew 23: 1-5). Jesus came to "write the law in our hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33), whereby simply wanting to kill or desiring to commit adultery was sinful.
Your correct, hell is the other side of Paradise, its where atheist and non-Christians go to await judgement. Everyone goes to the grave (Sheol or pit), but the destination of their spirit immediately goes to hell/Hades or paradise. Hell is not the Lake of Fire, nor is it purgatory (Catholicism), hell is the waiting room for judgement & the Lake of Fire (Luke 16). Gehenna is also a reference to hell/hades. Hell fire comes after judgement, its the second death in the Lake of Fire.
I still say that Jesus didn't think the temple priests interpreted the law rigidly enough. He taught that not only doing the physical act was against the laws but just thinking about the act was the same thing. Adultery is an example. As far as hell is concerned, it appears that everyone has a different take on what happens when we die. Some say all non Christians to to hell and the lake of fire immediately after dying. Judgement comes immediately after dying in their interpretation. I know supporters of the Roman Catholic belief cite biblical passages in which there are intimations of the three major components of purgatory: prayer for the dead, an active interim state between death and resurrection, and a purifying fire after death. So it is a kind of waiting room for them too. A place you go to be cleansed? They often say that those who were never given last rites go to purgatory to be cleansed so they can at some point enter heaven. I'm not sure what you mean about a second death where you go to a lake of fire and not right after you've been judged. However, there are so many different beliefs about what hell is, who goes etc. that any one of the interpretations is as likely as the next. For me, I die, and that's it. Only Christians go to hell if they're not a 'good enough' Christian.
Your correct in a sense. The Pharisees new the letter of the law, but it was not in their hearts. Its kind of like beating someone half to death or within an inch of their life, and then claiming you kept the commandment "Thou shalt not murder" because you technically didn't kill them. That's not exactly keeping with the spirit of the law. So Jesus wasn't reinterpreting the law or making it more rigid, he was establishing what the intent of the law was from the beginning.
Solomon simplified what happens when you die, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Hell/Hades is just the other side of paradise. Judgement doesn't come immediately, it comes after the Great White Throne Judgement (Revelation 20;11-14).
Catholicism is a confusing rendition created by scripture lawyers. Why pray for the dead? I mean, they're dead! Hell is not a place to be cleansed, that can only occur when your alive and accept Christ, but once your dead, that ship has sailed.
According to Jesus, in between the two hell/hades and paradise was “A great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.” (Luke 16:26).
Everyone dies physically (first death), "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and ladymongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).
Jesus said, "There is none good but one, that is, God" (Matthew 19:17). Fake or hypocritical Christians may not pass muster, but sincere ones are all good enough. When you die, that's not it girl, you got a lot to answer for
For non-Christians;
For Christians;
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Post by snow on Jun 17, 2023 12:34:29 GMT -5
Jesus took the interpretation of the laws a step beyond what the Hebrew priests etc. saw them. They believed that the laws only applied to the physical act. For example you had to commit adultery to have broken the law. Jesus said that you broke that law if you even thought about doing it. He had a more rigid interpretation of the laws of Moses than traditionally was taught. Here is a link to a page that talks about that. www.easyenglish.bible/bible-study/jesus-life/ruler_problem.htm In Matthew, we read what Jesus taught on a mountain. We call this ‘the Sermon on the Mount.’ Jesus taught people that the law was about more than our behaviour. For example, one command is: ‘Do not murder’. Jesus taught that anger against other people would break this law. The command against adultery included wrong sexy thoughts when we look at anyone (Matthew 5:27,28). These commands are like words on a sign. These commands show us how to live. They point to God’s standard. God is perfect, and he wants us to be perfect too. In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus showed that the *Pharisees had wrong ideas about the law. They said that behaviour is important. They thought that the ceremonies of religion were important. They did not think about the thoughts of men. Jesus showed that often they wanted to avoid the correct meaning of the law. (Matthew 15:3-9)" I don't see this as a more rigid interpretation of the laws of Moses. I see it more as having the spirit of the law in our hearts rather than an outward obedience to the letter of the law. All too often workers teach that their organisation is God's kingdom, and members are esteemed in proportion to their adoration of this man-made kingdom. We are seeing the fruits of that teaching more clearly than ever these days. Instead, workers should be teaching about God's kingship within our hearts. This is what Jesus was trying to convey. If God's kingdom is enthroned within our hearts we'll be focused on (having, living, being) the character of God as expressed by Jesus (please don't bring up the atrocities of the bible - that is an entirely different discussion). We will then have the love of God (his character) within our hearts so the evil thoughts Jesus referred to that lead to sin will be in subjection to the kingdom of God within. It's actually much easier than trying to avoid sin without having the love of God in our hearts. People show by their actions whether God is on the throne of their hearts. John 5:39 “You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is they that testify on my behalf. 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 41 I do not accept glory from humans. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God in you. It's more rigid because it took the law from the physical which most of the Jews interpreted it to be and made it also into the thoughts.
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Post by snow on Jun 17, 2023 12:53:45 GMT -5
I still say that Jesus didn't think the temple priests interpreted the law rigidly enough. He taught that not only doing the physical act was against the laws but just thinking about the act was the same thing. Adultery is an example. As far as hell is concerned, it appears that everyone has a different take on what happens when we die. Some say all non Christians to to hell and the lake of fire immediately after dying. Judgement comes immediately after dying in their interpretation. I know supporters of the Roman Catholic belief cite biblical passages in which there are intimations of the three major components of purgatory: prayer for the dead, an active interim state between death and resurrection, and a purifying fire after death. So it is a kind of waiting room for them too. A place you go to be cleansed? They often say that those who were never given last rites go to purgatory to be cleansed so they can at some point enter heaven. I'm not sure what you mean about a second death where you go to a lake of fire and not right after you've been judged. However, there are so many different beliefs about what hell is, who goes etc. that any one of the interpretations is as likely as the next. For me, I die, and that's it. Only Christians go to hell if they're not a 'good enough' Christian. Christ mentioned that they were sticking strictly to rules (plus added ones) Not sure that's not rigid. The Jews traditionally saw the laws of Moses as physical laws to be upheld. Do not kill, the physical act, and Jesus took that a step further and said that even being unjustifiably angry with a brother was also a breaking of the law. Inw just thinking about doing something that was against the law, was breaking the law.
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Post by snow on Jun 17, 2023 12:59:06 GMT -5
This is appalling behavior by the brother workers . Yes just the old boys club .. KUDOS TO BOB & STACEY 😊 In May 2023 WINGS posted a letter from the Woodstock convention ground owners. See wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/06/email-from-bob-and-stacy-bainbridge-re-worker-abuse-and-lack-of-transparency/The workers then cancelled the 2023 Woodstock convention: wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/07/woodstock-2023-convention-cancelled-punishment/However this was subsequently reversed: Dear staff, Could you please pass this on to the friends in your field. Last Sunday we sent an email saying that this year there wouldn’t be any convention at Woodstock, but instead we would have a second convention at Napan. Afterwards, we were not comfortable with that decision, and we realized that we sent that word out too hastily. We do plan to have the convention at Woodstock, and we will let you know about the exact format when we have had more time to discuss it. We are sorry for any sorrow or distress this lack of consistency may have caused Thank you and all the best. Your brothers, Dale, Ray and Jonathan. Subsequent correspondence from the workers included an annoucement that a three dayConvention would actually be held: wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/20/woodstock-convention-update-may-20-2023/The convention ground owners then issued Stipulations for preps and convention @ Woodstock NB *Convicted, reported or suspected abusers are Not welcome on our property. *Those that have participated in moving abusive workers to other fields are not welcome. *If any of the above offenders show up on our property they will be told to leave. If there is refusal to leave we will call the RCMP. *If we find out after preps and convention that one of these abusers was present we will report to the RCMP. *There will be no WiFi provided. *The walking trails that are normally made available will be off limits. *Be Kind and Considerate of one and other so we all can be safe and comfortable Any abusive language or behavior will not be tolerated, you will be told to leave. This is our request to have sent out by you to all friends in the Maritimes and Maine before the Start of preps. A reminder of this letter will be made at the beginning of convention by you also. Bob and Stacy Jonathan Freeburn has now responded: Dear Bob and Stacy, Thanks for your email We have been thinking a lot about the convention also. I think you are right about your first point; we have already asked any people with allegations against them in the past to not come to the convention. Even with that, we really think that it will be difficult to have the meetings there at your place without causing some kind of distress or conflict. We feel like we can’t really be sure to arrange the meetings there in a way that makes you feel at ease. As well, there are others who usually come there for convention, but they don’t feel comfortable coming. I don’t think it is right for you to have to leave during the time that we are there, and I would not want to have invited someone there causing you to feel like your principles have been violated This situation has put many in bondage, so we have looked into getting a neutral location in a hall near Fredericton where we can have the meetings. There is a hall which is available from Friday to Sunday. There is room and facilities to have the meetings there. All things considered, it seems best for this year. We do hope that we can have a profitable time together, and that you will feel free to be there also. All the best, and hope to see you in a couple of weeks. Your brother, Jonathan Well without WiFi how are they expected to get their sermons.... Sorry that was flippant. But I'm finding all of this to be so troubling that I needed that moment. Seriously though it looks like they aren't comfortable telling predators to stay away.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 17, 2023 13:03:46 GMT -5
This is appalling behavior by the brother workers . Yes just the old boys club .. KUDOS TO BOB & STACEY 😊 In May 2023 WINGS posted a letter from the Woodstock convention ground owners. See wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/06/email-from-bob-and-stacy-bainbridge-re-worker-abuse-and-lack-of-transparency/The workers then cancelled the 2023 Woodstock convention: wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/07/woodstock-2023-convention-cancelled-punishment/However this was subsequently reversed: Dear staff, Could you please pass this on to the friends in your field. Last Sunday we sent an email saying that this year there wouldn’t be any convention at Woodstock, but instead we would have a second convention at Napan. Afterwards, we were not comfortable with that decision, and we realized that we sent that word out too hastily. We do plan to have the convention at Woodstock, and we will let you know about the exact format when we have had more time to discuss it. We are sorry for any sorrow or distress this lack of consistency may have caused Thank you and all the best. Your brothers, Dale, Ray and Jonathan. Subsequent correspondence from the workers included an annoucement that a three dayConvention would actually be held: wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/20/woodstock-convention-update-may-20-2023/The convention ground owners then issued Stipulations for preps and convention @ Woodstock NB *Convicted, reported or suspected abusers are Not welcome on our property. *Those that have participated in moving abusive workers to other fields are not welcome. *If any of the above offenders show up on our property they will be told to leave. If there is refusal to leave we will call the RCMP. *If we find out after preps and convention that one of these abusers was present we will report to the RCMP. *There will be no WiFi provided. *The walking trails that are normally made available will be off limits. *Be Kind and Considerate of one and other so we all can be safe and comfortable Any abusive language or behavior will not be tolerated, you will be told to leave. This is our request to have sent out by you to all friends in the Maritimes and Maine before the Start of preps. A reminder of this letter will be made at the beginning of convention by you also. Bob and Stacy Jonathan Freeburn has now responded: Dear Bob and Stacy, Thanks for your email We have been thinking a lot about the convention also. I think you are right about your first point; we have already asked any people with allegations against them in the past to not come to the convention. Even with that, we really think that it will be difficult to have the meetings there at your place without causing some kind of distress or conflict. We feel like we can’t really be sure to arrange the meetings there in a way that makes you feel at ease. As well, there are others who usually come there for convention, but they don’t feel comfortable coming. I don’t think it is right for you to have to leave during the time that we are there, and I would not want to have invited someone there causing you to feel like your principles have been violated This situation has put many in bondage, so we have looked into getting a neutral location in a hall near Fredericton where we can have the meetings. There is a hall which is available from Friday to Sunday. There is room and facilities to have the meetings there. All things considered, it seems best for this year. We do hope that we can have a profitable time together, and that you will feel free to be there also. All the best, and hope to see you in a couple of weeks. Your brother, Jonathan Well without WiFi how are they expected to get their sermons.... Sorry that was flippant. But I'm finding all of this to be so troubling that I needed that moment. Seriously though it looks like they aren't comfortable telling predators to stay away. Yep snow they don’t seem concerned about the offender’s being there .
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Post by snow on Jun 17, 2023 13:53:41 GMT -5
Well without WiFi how are they expected to get their sermons.... Sorry that was flippant. But I'm finding all of this to be so troubling that I needed that moment. Seriously though it looks like they aren't comfortable telling predators to stay away. Yep snow they don’t seem concerned about the offender’s being there . I have to say though that while they don't want to limit who's allowed there, it's all about a show of power. The friends got a clear message that this is what happens to them if they put conditions on what they consider their 'show'. The workers there have decided that to live by Bob and Stacy's conditions their power is taken away. Can't have that.
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Post by openingact34 on Jun 17, 2023 14:43:28 GMT -5
Yep snow they don’t seem concerned about the offender’s being there . I have to say though that while they don't want to limit who's allowed there, it's all about a show of power. The friends got a clear message that this is what happens to them if they put conditions on what they consider their 'show'. The workers there have decided that to live by Bob and Stacy's conditions their power is taken away. Can't have that. Probably right. But also, I think about my family who are pillars in the center of the way. They would probably feel very uncomfortable going to a convention where the grounds owners are rebels who are have a history of defiance and rebellion toward the workers. The people stirring up all the rebellion and reform online are just a very small, vocal minority. Most of the kingdom is patiently continuing in submission to the workers.
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Post by fixit on Jun 17, 2023 16:21:02 GMT -5
I don't see this as a more rigid interpretation of the laws of Moses. I see it more as having the spirit of the law in our hearts rather than an outward obedience to the letter of the law. All too often workers teach that their organisation is God's kingdom, and members are esteemed in proportion to their adoration of this man-made kingdom. We are seeing the fruits of that teaching more clearly than ever these days. Instead, workers should be teaching about God's kingship within our hearts. This is what Jesus was trying to convey. If God's kingdom is enthroned within our hearts we'll be focused on (having, living, being) the character of God as expressed by Jesus (please don't bring up the atrocities of the bible - that is an entirely different discussion). We will then have the love of God (his character) within our hearts so the evil thoughts Jesus referred to that lead to sin will be in subjection to the kingdom of God within. It's actually much easier than trying to avoid sin without having the love of God in our hearts. People show by their actions whether God is on the throne of their hearts. John 5:39 “You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is they that testify on my behalf. 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 41 I do not accept glory from humans. 42 But I know that you do not have the love of God in you. It's more rigid because it took the law from the physical which most of the Jews interpreted it to be and made it also into the thoughts. What's easier: 1. Dealing with your thoughts of sexual impropriety or dealing with the physical results? 2. Dealing with hatred in your thoughts or dealing with the physical results of violence and murder?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2023 16:23:49 GMT -5
I still say that Jesus didn't think the temple priests interpreted the law rigidly enough. He taught that not only doing the physical act was against the laws but just thinking about the act was the same thing. Adultery is an example. As far as hell is concerned, it appears that everyone has a different take on what happens when we die. Some say all non Christians to to hell and the lake of fire immediately after dying. Judgement comes immediately after dying in their interpretation. I know supporters of the Roman Catholic belief cite biblical passages in which there are intimations of the three major components of purgatory: prayer for the dead, an active interim state between death and resurrection, and a purifying fire after death. So it is a kind of waiting room for them too. A place you go to be cleansed? They often say that those who were never given last rites go to purgatory to be cleansed so they can at some point enter heaven. I'm not sure what you mean about a second death where you go to a lake of fire and not right after you've been judged. However, there are so many different beliefs about what hell is, who goes etc. that any one of the interpretations is as likely as the next. For me, I die, and that's it. Only Christians go to hell if they're not a 'good enough' Christian.
Your correct in a sense. The Pharisees new the letter of the law, but it was not in their hearts. Its kind of like beating someone half to death or within an inch of their life, and then claiming you kept the commandment "Thou shalt not murder" because you technically didn't kill them. That's not exactly keeping with the spirit of the law. So Jesus wasn't reinterpreting the law or making it more rigid, he was establishing what the intent of the law was from the beginning.
Solomon simplified what happens when you die, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7). Hell/Hades is just the other side of paradise. Judgement doesn't come immediately, it comes after the Great White Throne Judgement (Revelation 20;11-14).
Catholicism is a confusing rendition created by scripture lawyers. Why pray for the dead? I mean, they're dead! Hell is not a place to be cleansed, that can only occur when your alive and accept Christ, but once your dead, that ship has sailed.
According to Jesus, in between the two hell/hades and paradise was “A great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us.” (Luke 16:26).
Everyone dies physically (first death), "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and ladymongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).
Jesus said, "There is none good but one, that is, God" (Matthew 19:17). Fake or hypocritical Christians may not pass muster, but sincere ones are all good enough. When you die, that's not it girl, you got a lot to answer for
For non-Christians;
For Christians;
Love the images....
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Post by SharonArnold on Jun 17, 2023 16:55:01 GMT -5
It's more rigid because it took the law from the physical which most of the Jews interpreted it to be and made it also into the thoughts. What's easier: 1. Dealing with your thoughts of sexual impropriety or dealing with the physical results? 2. Dealing with hatred in your thoughts or dealing with the physical results of violence and murder? Yes! The average human being has about 70,000 thoughts per day. Most of our actions are the result of many repetitive thoughts. How much easier is it to gently correct and shape a thought, rather than pay for the consequences of an action? I do not see this as more rigid, but a piece of simple life wisdom that would empower you to have more of what you want for your life and less of things you do not want. I see freedom and liberty in awareness/taking control of our thoughts, rather than it being restrictive.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 17, 2023 18:13:13 GMT -5
This is appalling behavior by the brother workers . Yes just the old boys club .. KUDOS TO BOB & STACEY 😊 In May 2023 WINGS posted a letter from the Woodstock convention ground owners. See wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/06/email-from-bob-and-stacy-bainbridge-re-worker-abuse-and-lack-of-transparency/The workers then cancelled the 2023 Woodstock convention: wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/07/woodstock-2023-convention-cancelled-punishment/However this was subsequently reversed: Dear staff, Could you please pass this on to the friends in your field. Last Sunday we sent an email saying that this year there wouldn’t be any convention at Woodstock, but instead we would have a second convention at Napan. Afterwards, we were not comfortable with that decision, and we realized that we sent that word out too hastily. We do plan to have the convention at Woodstock, and we will let you know about the exact format when we have had more time to discuss it. We are sorry for any sorrow or distress this lack of consistency may have caused Thank you and all the best. Your brothers, Dale, Ray and Jonathan. Subsequent correspondence from the workers included an annoucement that a three dayConvention would actually be held: wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/20/woodstock-convention-update-may-20-2023/The convention ground owners then issued Stipulations for preps and convention @ Woodstock NB *Convicted, reported or suspected abusers are Not welcome on our property. *Those that have participated in moving abusive workers to other fields are not welcome. *If any of the above offenders show up on our property they will be told to leave. If there is refusal to leave we will call the RCMP. *If we find out after preps and convention that one of these abusers was present we will report to the RCMP. *There will be no WiFi provided. *The walking trails that are normally made available will be off limits. *Be Kind and Considerate of one and other so we all can be safe and comfortable Any abusive language or behavior will not be tolerated, you will be told to leave. This is our request to have sent out by you to all friends in the Maritimes and Maine before the Start of preps. A reminder of this letter will be made at the beginning of convention by you also. Bob and Stacy Jonathan Freeburn has now responded: Dear Bob and Stacy, Thanks for your email We have been thinking a lot about the convention also. I think you are right about your first point; we have already asked any people with allegations against them in the past to not come to the convention. Even with that, we really think that it will be difficult to have the meetings there at your place without causing some kind of distress or conflict. We feel like we can’t really be sure to arrange the meetings there in a way that makes you feel at ease. As well, there are others who usually come there for convention, but they don’t feel comfortable coming. I don’t think it is right for you to have to leave during the time that we are there, and I would not want to have invited someone there causing you to feel like your principles have been violated This situation has put many in bondage, so we have looked into getting a neutral location in a hall near Fredericton where we can have the meetings. There is a hall which is available from Friday to Sunday. There is room and facilities to have the meetings there. All things considered, it seems best for this year. We do hope that we can have a profitable time together, and that you will feel free to be there also. All the best, and hope to see you in a couple of weeks. Your brother, Jonathan Well without WiFi how are they expected to get their sermons.... Sorry that was flippant. But I'm finding all of this to be so troubling that I needed that moment. Seriously though it looks like they aren't comfortable telling predators to stay away. They don't like it that Bob B has assumed responsibility for protecting his own property. They'll find that rented property in Fredericton comes with a lot more ownership restrictions that Bob asked for, but it's their show after all.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 17, 2023 20:08:06 GMT -5
Well without WiFi how are they expected to get their sermons.... Sorry that was flippant. But I'm finding all of this to be so troubling that I needed that moment. Seriously though it looks like they aren't comfortable telling predators to stay away. They don't like it that Bob B has assumed responsibility for protecting his own property. They'll find that rented property in Fredericton comes with a lot more ownership restrictions that Bob asked for, but it's their show after all. Have the owners of the rented property been advised that they are renting it to a group where there will be convicted sexual predators and those who hide them. What is the owners legal obligations in those circumstances?
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 17, 2023 20:27:23 GMT -5
This is a power play by the Worker’s . They cannot yield to a few stipulations that sounded great . They have a duty if something happens on their property .
I don’t see the spirit of a humble servant from them .
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Post by snow on Jun 18, 2023 12:06:51 GMT -5
I have to say though that while they don't want to limit who's allowed there, it's all about a show of power. The friends got a clear message that this is what happens to them if they put conditions on what they consider their 'show'. The workers there have decided that to live by Bob and Stacy's conditions their power is taken away. Can't have that. Probably right. But also, I think about my family who are pillars in the center of the way. They would probably feel very uncomfortable going to a convention where the grounds owners are rebels who are have a history of defiance and rebellion toward the workers. The people stirring up all the rebellion and reform online are just a very small, vocal minority. Most of the kingdom is patiently continuing in submission to the workers. That mindset is so foreign to me that it never even occurred to me that anyone wouldn't want to go because of the defiance. All the conditions they wanted were more than reasonable and having the workers think those conditions were too much, well it shows exactly where the workers stand and it's not in a good place imo.
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Post by snow on Jun 18, 2023 12:09:09 GMT -5
It's more rigid because it took the law from the physical which most of the Jews interpreted it to be and made it also into the thoughts. What's easier: 1. Dealing with your thoughts of sexual impropriety or dealing with the physical results? 2. Dealing with hatred in your thoughts or dealing with the physical results of violence and murder? Your thoughts obviously, but that's not what we're talking about here. We were talking about Jesus taking it to thoughts while the Hebrews dwelt on the physical. That's more rigid. Is there a reason you don't like thinking Jesus was more rigid? It wasn't a bad thing, but it was a next step that the Hebrews were not acknowledging and Jesus was.
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Post by fixit on Jun 18, 2023 14:40:07 GMT -5
What's easier: 1. Dealing with your thoughts of sexual impropriety or dealing with the physical results? 2. Dealing with hatred in your thoughts or dealing with the physical results of violence and murder? Your thoughts obviously, but that's not what we're talking about here. We were talking about Jesus taking it to thoughts while the Hebrews dwelt on the physical. That's more rigid. Is there a reason you don't like thinking Jesus was more rigid? It wasn't a bad thing, but it was a next step that the Hebrews were not acknowledging and Jesus was. The Mosaic law was always about the thoughts rather than the physical. The Pharisees were making a big mistake being pedantic about the physical. Jesus fulfilled the law by living the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. Israel was called to take up the name [character] of God and live it as an exemplary nation. We fulfill the law when we have the love of God, the character of God, in our hearts. Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not murder; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become enslaved to one another. 14 For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “ You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
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Post by snow on Jun 18, 2023 15:22:48 GMT -5
Your thoughts obviously, but that's not what we're talking about here. We were talking about Jesus taking it to thoughts while the Hebrews dwelt on the physical. That's more rigid. Is there a reason you don't like thinking Jesus was more rigid? It wasn't a bad thing, but it was a next step that the Hebrews were not acknowledging and Jesus was. The Mosaic law was always about the thoughts rather than the physical. The Pharisees were making a big mistake being pedantic about the physical. Jesus fulfilled the law by living the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law. Israel was called to take up the name [character] of God and live it as an exemplary nation. We fulfill the law when we have the love of God, the character of God, in our hearts. Romans 13:8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; you shall not murder; you shall not steal; you shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Galatians 5:13 For you were called to freedom, brothers and sisters, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for self-indulgence, but through love become enslaved to one another. 14 For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “ You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” I guess that's where we differ in interpretation. I don't see the commandments as 'thought sins', but have always been physical.
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