|
Post by verna on Jun 10, 2023 8:37:55 GMT -5
Just read the letter from the Missouri meeting. Near the top is this statement, “it was very evident the Holy Spirit was present at this meeting.” You want to deal with embedded culture that causes problems in this fellowship? Then consider this as a classic example of a false doctrine that infects everyone to some degree. Everyone. By putting this statement at the top, I am now obligated to accept everything that follows without questioning. This do this often used like a hammer. If I don’t agree, then I’m accused of having a bad spirit. By the way. What is this evidence? Did everyone speak in tongues? Was there sound of a mighty rushing wind? Who judged this evidence? Was it Craig Winquist who wasn’t able to pick up on the spirit of his pedophile companion? We all need to wake up and realize that this doctrine is the hidden driver behind all the coverups and stonewalling. The perps think that they have the Spirit! The cover up overseers think they have the Spirit! They think we have the “wrong spirit”. The aim of all the people trying to clean this up should be “A Christ led church”. Not “Spirit led”. If it’s Christ led, the Spirit will approve. It’s that simple. But as soon as the Spirit is put out in front, then that empowers the one who is in charge to decide who’s right and who’s not. You see what fruit come from that? I’ve been pounding on this for awhile and it seems no one is listening. Is anyone catching on to this? I am in agreement that this idea of the Holy Spirit is highly problematic. It is a power tactic and covers a multitude of sins. I still need to be convinced that Christ led is any better as it is, imo, susceptible to the same problems. I guess one needs to be completely reliant on what is written in the Bible (otherwise one is reliant again on a nefarious spirit for guidance again) and we are well aware (I hope) of the limitations and pitfalls there. At best the Bible contains a limited number of quotes from Jesus. Mostly recollections and revelations via the “spirit” (ie Paul).
|
|
Mac
New Member
Posts: 9
|
Post by Mac on Jun 10, 2023 9:17:31 GMT -5
I agree with you Verna. The problems could still be there in a Christ led church. What I’m picturing is a church that doesn’t use the Spirit as a hammer to keep people in line. Rather that by everyone refocusing on Jesus, people will see that all the ideas on what is right, dress, hair, jewelry, tv’s, speech, Bible versions, conventions, gospel meetings, etc are not the foundation of true fellowship. We would have to focus on what Jesus taught about controlling our own heart and desires.
For example, I have yet to hear the workers use Jesus’s directive about controlling lust put forth as the answer. Instead we get a trash bag full of Mercy and Forgiveness and Spirit and other stuff thrown at us while they wring their hands and wonder what to do and whine about how they feel attacked.
I’ll know things are headed in the right direction when I hear an overseer say, “Never mind about the Spirit, let’s focus on what Jesus said about controlling desire. It doesn’t matter whether we personally feel righteous enough to enforce this standard. It is the standard and therefore the expectation for everyone equally.”
|
|
|
Post by jonathan on Jun 10, 2023 10:38:30 GMT -5
Well put, Mac 👍
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2023 11:37:29 GMT -5
Oh really? And how would you know that scientist? Probably the same way you know "half the time they are wearing those spandex-like pants". I wasn't talking about professing women but in general. I've yet to hear one of the Lady friends wear a thong bikini outside and then say don't objectify me, maybe in the backwoods there in the Holyland of NZ they've never even heard the word spandex? Sounds like you though are monitoring the friend's wives or adult daughters for spandex, yes or no?
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 10, 2023 18:08:00 GMT -5
Removing rules and power imbalanceJun 8 . We wish to turn our focus to Jesus’ teachings and our service to God, not man. I know my comment won't be popular, but I just want to say this from my perspective. Everyone is welcome to their own opinions. This is just mine. I also had a hard time growing up looking different from other girls. That is so normal, and maybe I am just lucky because my mom didn't teach me that I had to dress a certain way because of rules but because we love God, and I never had the workers lay down the law to me. I hated it when someone asked me what I believed and wished I didn't have to look different so they wouldn't ask me questions. But as an adult I began to realize what a privilege it was to represent the Bride here on the earth and to be able to point people to Jesus. I know it is the inside that matters, not just outward conforming, but if the inside is right then having the outward appearance that speaks to people of faith and love for God seems like a good thing, right? It is often the outward appearance that people in town see, and sometimes we get to have conversations with people who ask us where we go to church or what we believe. I wonder, but don't know, if women that have on pants and short hair get those questions? We don't like questions, but we are to be a light of the world, and a light does draw attention, doesn't it? When all of this discussion started up about doing away with any outward difference, I felt sad that there might not be lights like this. I know that it can be our spirit that draws people, but when we are just out at the store or in the community, a quick moment in time, it is the appearance someone is noticing. If I present in a modest, godly way, people might be curious. So I felt sad that might not happen any more, but then I remembered that it is the God of heaven we are talking about, and if there is a lost soul out there, God will use whatever methods he can to bring them in. But I will continue with my desire to look modest and to be willing to be associated with Jesus in the community. It is such a wonderful privilege a woman has to be such a clear picture of submission to the Bridegroom of our soul and to get to answer people for the reason of hope in her when people ask questions about her faith. For you men, how often do you get stopped in a store to ask what you believe? But I am not going to insist other people hold to a certain outward appearance because if it doesn't arise from within, it won't be honest, so it won't help anyone. God has set us on a candlestick in this world. Men and women have different roles, and how can I despise the role of representing the Bride and her love and submission to the bridegroom with the hopes of drawing others to Him? So I am ready for whatever stones you want to throw at me, but it won't make me change my mind. What I do is because of my love for Jesus and my appreciation of what He has done for me. I know my appearance doesn't buy salvation for me, Jesus has paid that price, but my love for Him motivates what I do. No stones thrown here. But I do have a question. Do you think that the outward appearance that makes us look so very different is a positive announcement to the 'world'? Many people are good moral people that dress completely different from the way we dressed. Do they really need to dress like we did in order to shine their lights?
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 10, 2023 18:13:39 GMT -5
This is going to look very passive aggressive at best, and nobody will be able to tell if each person is just slipping toward worldliness selfishly, or protesting for abuse awareness, or signaling that they have left the truth and become apostate. Yawn. If you're going to protest, you need to actually protest. Want to use 'non traditional attire'? Fine. A certified troublemaker like myself would get a bunch of the MEN in dresses, black stockings, and giant buns. Then walk around the holy ground cosplaying sister worker enforcer bully against each other, making a mockery of the "standard". That would get the point across. Ok now that's a vision I'm not soon able to get out of my head!!
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 10, 2023 18:30:20 GMT -5
Skirts it is for men then. Seriously Wally? Are you ok with women checking out the books and crannies of men’s pants? I've yet to see a man with TIGHT pants that would show the old peanuts and banana...my experience anyway... Ok I think I just choked on my yogurt! You do say the damnedest things wally!
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 10, 2023 18:38:32 GMT -5
"Good god" is indeed the right person to ask. Why did he focus the Bible on all this stuff instead of something more relevant? I suppose it's because God is VERY VERY VERY VERY ANGRY. He drove Paul made obsessing over how women should dress and do their hair. I thought you might be sane. My mistake. Pointless conversation unless there is irony here I am missing. You are serious? openingact34 just likes to give us all a very good look at just how ludicrous religious rules and doctrine really is.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 10, 2023 18:40:15 GMT -5
There needs to be some minimum standards for dress. I use to tell people I hired that we had no uniforms, I told them just to wear something casual and comfortable to work. That stopped real quick after I had the hell shocked out of me a couple of times. Even telling women to wear skirts to the knee and long hair can be tricky. While I prefer the latter, she just doesn't seem quite as modest ... Maybe its a picture of the same girl, in the morning meeting and later that night? Some of the worst sex cults (à la Warren Jeffs) enforce the strictest dress codes of "modesty" and conformity. There is also a porn genre of women in blouses and knee-length skirts. Any level of dress and undress is sexually alluring to someone. My point is, I guess, is that general society is ultimately the arbiter of what is acceptable in different contexts, as much as we'd like to think there is some fixed, perfect standard of dress for "godly" people. If modesty in dress protected women and didn't tempt men, then women in burka's would not be raped. Sad thing is they are.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 10, 2023 19:18:38 GMT -5
I know one or two brother workers who would love for that to happen Haven't worn a suit or tie since 2000... I couldn't quit until I left the legislature in 2002.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 10, 2023 19:20:10 GMT -5
peanuts and a banana?? Really?? Wally you have my sympathy. He has to stop looking in the mirror so much.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 10, 2023 19:21:06 GMT -5
Thank God...really though if it's as obvious as several whiners on here say anyone could see it... Wally, for some reason I have a heart for you. You are the grumpy old uncle, incorrigible, set in your ways, committed to being annoying, bitter and hateful to spite your own self. I see through you. 😀 He needs a demanding wife.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 10, 2023 19:22:26 GMT -5
Pants don't have to be tight. Uh huh... Half the time they are wearing those spandex-like pants. They screech and say they are being objectified by a guy who looks at them... They don't screech at me about it!!!
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 10, 2023 19:24:38 GMT -5
peanuts and a banana?? Really?? Wally you have my sympathy. General term for others. I could describe my endowment in larger terms but everyone would get PO'D... I'm glad you don't brag about such things.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 10, 2023 19:33:11 GMT -5
There needs to be some minimum standards for dress. I use to tell people I hired that we had no uniforms, I told them just to wear something casual and comfortable to work. That stopped real quick after I had the hell shocked out of me a couple of times. Even telling women to wear skirts to the knee and long hair can be tricky. While I prefer the latter, she just doesn't seem quite as modest ... Maybe its a picture of the same girl, in the morning meeting and later that night? Some of the worst sex cults (à la Warren Jeffs) enforce the strictest dress codes of "modesty" and conformity. There is also a porn genre of women in blouses and knee-length skirts. Any level of dress and undress is sexually alluring to someone. My point is, I guess, is that general society is ultimately the arbiter of what is acceptable in different contexts, as much as we'd like to think there is some fixed, perfect standard of dress for "godly" people. Precisely. When my mother was young she had to wear black stockings -- despite the fact that the prostitutes in that city were recognized by their black stockings.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2023 19:52:14 GMT -5
No stones thrown here. But I do have a question. Do you think that the outward appearance that makes us look so very different is a positive announcement to the 'world'? Many people are good moral people that dress completely different from the way we dressed. Do they really need to dress like we did in order to shine their lights? Of course, Snow. The best light is what comes from our spirit. And when people are around us for a time,that is when the Spirit can shine to others. I was just referring to when it is just a quick moment in time. I have been stopped in walmart by customers and by a cashier wondering about my beliefs. Nothing came of those interactions, but nonetheless, it is women that have the burden and the privilege of looking different, which brings possible interactions with someone who has no other connection. (Of course, I am speaking as someone who goes to meeting and who would like to invite people to meeting. I know some on here think we shouldn't exist, so you will have to just ignore some of my comments here.) The great misconception that has happened is that if you stick people into the professing mold and then put them in meeting that a child of God will come out. Of course, we now know that doesn't work. Instead you end up with a lot of bitter and disillusioned people that think we are all about rules and conforming. However, some of us aren't doing what we are doing to conform, it is coming from within. It is better to let people be as they will be and let the Spirit work on the inside and see what happens. So this is only my feeling that I have come to after a lot of years of praying about it. I WANT people to ask me questions now, and I probably won't get that in these quick interactions if I look like every other woman out there, and yes, I want the people I am around every day to see what is coming forth from my life as identifying me as a follower of Jesus. Hope that makes sense. I am not feeling like the outside is more important than the inside. Definitely not! It is the inside that matters, only the inside, as far as my relationship with God, but in being a light to the world, the outside has a little bit of importance, only a little. It is not the focus!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2023 19:56:44 GMT -5
Some of the worst sex cults (à la Warren Jeffs) enforce the strictest dress codes of "modesty" and conformity. There is also a porn genre of women in blouses and knee-length skirts. Any level of dress and undress is sexually alluring to someone. My point is, I guess, is that general society is ultimately the arbiter of what is acceptable in different contexts, as much as we'd like to think there is some fixed, perfect standard of dress for "godly" people. If modesty in dress protected women and didn't tempt men, then women in burka's would not be raped. Sad thing is they are. yes, rape and child abuse happens in all socioeconomic tiers, every culture, every group, across space and time. Some people are predators, and they will attack and hurt others, no matter what the person is wearing or doing. It is sad, but still true.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2023 20:08:08 GMT -5
peanuts and a banana?? Really?? Wally you have my sympathy. He has to stop looking in the mirror so much. Ah, projection again Mr. eel...
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jun 10, 2023 22:47:19 GMT -5
Just read the letter from the Missouri meeting. Near the top is this statement, “it was very evident the Holy Spirit was present at this meeting.” You want to deal with embedded culture that causes problems in this fellowship? Then consider this as a classic example of a false doctrine that infects everyone to some degree. Everyone. By putting this statement at the top, I am now obligated to accept everything that follows without questioning. This do this often used like a hammer. If I don’t agree, then I’m accused of having a bad spirit. By the way. What is this evidence? Did everyone speak in tongues? Was there sound of a mighty rushing wind? Who judged this evidence? Was it Craig Winquist who wasn’t able to pick up on the spirit of his pedophile companion? We all need to wake up and realize that this doctrine is the hidden driver behind all the coverups and stonewalling. The perps think that they have the Spirit! The cover up overseers think they have the Spirit! They think we have the “wrong spirit”. The aim of all the people trying to clean this up should be “A Christ led church”. Not “Spirit led”. If it’s Christ led, the Spirit will approve. It’s that simple. But as soon as the Spirit is put out in front, then that empowers the one who is in charge to decide who’s right and who’s not. You see what fruit come from that? I’ve been pounding on this for awhile and it seems no one is listening. Is anyone catching on to this? Good thoughts. When all is said and done, what is said is often very different to what is done. People are judged by their appearance, swagger, popularity, confidence, charisma, obsequiousness, intelligence, etc. None of those things are evidence of the Holy Spirit's presence. The 400+ comments here suggest that many senior workers and friends are very poor judges of the Holy Spirit's presence: professing.proboards.com/thread/31859/bruer-extent-deception-public-tributes?page=1&scrollTo=1041583Here's how the Holy Spirit's presense is revealed: Galatians 5:16 Live by the Spirit, I say, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For what the flesh desires is opposed to the Spirit, and what the Spirit desires is opposed to the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not subject to the law. 19 Now the works of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity, debauchery, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, anger, quarrels, dissensions, factions, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these. I am warning you, as I warned you before: those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 By contrast, the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, and self-control. There is no law against such things. 24 And those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jun 10, 2023 22:56:24 GMT -5
Probably the same way you know "half the time they are wearing those spandex-like pants". I wasn't talking about professing women but in general. I've yet to hear one of the Lady friends wear a thong bikini outside and then say don't objectify me, maybe in the backwoods there in the Holyland of NZ they've never even heard the word spandex? Sounds like you though are monitoring the friend's wives or adult daughters for spandex, yes or no? I don't know why you raised the issue of spandex when we were discussing the friends. You're right - we don't use the word spandex. It's lycra here.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2023 23:00:19 GMT -5
I wasn't talking about professing women but in general. I've yet to hear one of the Lady friends wear a thong bikini outside and then say don't objectify me, maybe in the backwoods there in the Holyland of NZ they've never even heard the word spandex? Sounds like you though are monitoring the friend's wives or adult daughters for spandex, yes or no? I don't know why you raised the issue of spandex when we were discussing the friends. You're right - we don't use the word spandex. It's lycra here. Discussing the more recent "progress" to the pants discussion... Sin almost always starts out small then gets worse. Do we want to be the same? Satan only needs an inch then will take a mile. A pin hole or hair line crack will suffice also.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jun 10, 2023 23:59:28 GMT -5
I don't know why you raised the issue of spandex when we were discussing the friends. You're right - we don't use the word spandex. It's lycra here. Discussing the more recent "progress" to the pants discussion... Sin almost always starts out small then gets worse. Do we want to be the same? Satan only needs an inch then will take a mile. A pin hole or hair line crack will suffice also. It's like carrying a gun. It might tempt others to do the same, and lead to action you might regret.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2023 1:12:52 GMT -5
Discussing the more recent "progress" to the pants discussion... Sin almost always starts out small then gets worse. Do we want to be the same? Satan only needs an inch then will take a mile. A pin hole or hair line crack will suffice also. It's like carrying a gun. It might tempt others to do the same, and lead to action you might regret. Strawman, Self-defense is a right, only Authoritarians like yourself hate that. It takes away your ultimate power over others. The number of firearms used to murder is far outweighed by those who use them to morally and lawfully defend themselves.
|
|
|
Post by Annan on Jun 11, 2023 8:01:38 GMT -5
openingact34 just likes to give us all a very good look at just how ludicrous religious rules and doctrine really is. And that’s what I love about her posts.
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Jun 11, 2023 10:03:32 GMT -5
I thought you might be sane. My mistake. Pointless conversation unless there is irony here I am missing. You are serious? openingact34 just likes to give us all a very good look at just how ludicrous religious rules and doctrine really is. Jesus wasn't ludicrous, if everyone lived by the way he taught the world would be in peace
|
|
janj
Senior Member
Posts: 470
|
Post by janj on Jun 11, 2023 13:06:11 GMT -5
I've been told that the friends who are women have to wear their hair in a bun, and wear certain clothes.
Actually that is not really right- they certainly don't have to wear buns! In Aust & NZ I have seen many older women out and about with their hair down or in ponytails and wearing pants, excersise gear or clothes suitable for what ever they are doing and no one seems to worry. I was at a couple of 'friendly'weddings 2 years ago and the young girls particularly looked like they stepped out of fashion magazines. They made the 'wordly' wedding I also attended look like frump palace!! There is a new generation.
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 11, 2023 13:33:51 GMT -5
No stones thrown here. But I do have a question. Do you think that the outward appearance that makes us look so very different is a positive announcement to the 'world'? Many people are good moral people that dress completely different from the way we dressed. Do they really need to dress like we did in order to shine their lights? Of course, Snow. The best light is what comes from our spirit. And when people are around us for a time,that is when the Spirit can shine to others. I was just referring to when it is just a quick moment in time. I have been stopped in walmart by customers and by a cashier wondering about my beliefs. Nothing came of those interactions, but nonetheless, it is women that have the burden and the privilege of looking different, which brings possible interactions with someone who has no other connection. (Of course, I am speaking as someone who goes to meeting and who would like to invite people to meeting. I know some on here think we shouldn't exist, so you will have to just ignore some of my comments here.) The great misconception that has happened is that if you stick people into the professing mold and then put them in meeting that a child of God will come out. Of course, we now know that doesn't work. Instead you end up with a lot of bitter and disillusioned people that think we are all about rules and conforming. However, some of us aren't doing what we are doing to conform, it is coming from within. It is better to let people be as they will be and let the Spirit work on the inside and see what happens. So this is only my feeling that I have come to after a lot of years of praying about it. I WANT people to ask me questions now, and I probably won't get that in these quick interactions if I look like every other woman out there, and yes, I want the people I am around every day to see what is coming forth from my life as identifying me as a follower of Jesus. Hope that makes sense. I am not feeling like the outside is more important than the inside. Definitely not! It is the inside that matters, only the inside, as far as my relationship with God, but in being a light to the world, the outside has a little bit of importance, only a little. It is not the focus! Thank you for your answer. I do see that dressing different might attract someone to ask you questions about what religion you belong to. That makes sense. What I wonder is this. Do you think that people will be attracted to become part of your group if they have to dress that way? Many people that have 'the right spirit' still don't want to dress the way the sister workers dress, although I do know that it has changed somewhat then when I was still in the group. Also, why is it only the woman's job to look different? Why can't the men have some kind of identifying dress code like orthodox jews have for example. Or the Amish, Mennonite etc. Why do the 2x2 men get to dress like every man in the 'world' and not attract attention to themselves like the women are expected to? Surely it shouldn't be just the women? There are many things that could be done in the dress of men that would also make them stand out?
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 11, 2023 13:41:50 GMT -5
openingact34 just likes to give us all a very good look at just how ludicrous religious rules and doctrine really is. Jesus wasn't ludicrous, if everyone lived by the way he taught the world would be in peace Jesus was very much like the Buddhist philosophy. And I agree if people were more like his good characteristics then we probably would be better off. But he wasn't perfect. He had a temper, he felt that the old law wasn't strict enough etc. Those aspects of his character wouldn't lead to peace. When I refer to the ludicrous, I mostly am referring to all the different religious doctrines in the world of religion. The mental gymnastics that take place trying to make their sacred book seem like it's all spiritual and not acknowledge the violence and dysfunction that also exists in these books. The bible isn't the only religious book that I find to be violent and I find it ludicrous how Christians don't follow the rules of the Christian OT God. They cherry pick what they want to do over and over. They justify this cherry picking by saying Jesus changed the rules. But he really didn't. In fact, he is said to have thought they were not strict enough. But even that passage when I quote it gets me told that that really wasn't what it means.
|
|