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Post by Pragmatic on May 13, 2023 1:35:20 GMT -5
A certain amount of "praying about it" and being "led by the Holy Spirit" is actually psychosis and/or a means to justify what someone wants to do, regardless. When it is real, it is obvious. Saying you have prayed about a matter and saying you're led by the Spirit could also be a means to justify your actions. Because, who dares to question you now? Exactly.
A scenario can go like this. "Dear worker, I want to play for the school basketball team, but my parents are concerned that it might draw me away from the meetings." "Well, you just pray about it, and I'm sure the Holy Spirit's voice will tell you which course is best for your salvation".
Reading between the lines, it is a "Big No", because that's the confirmation bias kicking in. Nothing to do with prayer of Holy Spirit at all. It's just a variant of the Prosperity Gospel's claims, but with different subject matter.
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Post by jonathan on May 13, 2023 1:55:41 GMT -5
Saying you have prayed about a matter and saying you're led by the Spirit could also be a means to justify your actions. Because, who dares to question you now? Exactly.
A scenario can go like this. "Dear worker, I want to play for the school basketball team, but my parents are concerned that it might draw me away from the meetings." "Well, you just pray about it, and I'm sure the Holy Spirit's voice will tell you which course is best for your salvation".
Reading between the lines, it is a "Big No", because that's the confirmation bias kicking in. Nothing to do with prayer of Holy Spirit at all. It's just a variant of the Prosperity Gospel's claims, but with different subject matter.
Doesn't such statements fall under the 3rd commandment given to Moses, about taking the Lord's name in vain? Using the Lord's name, or that if the Holy Spirit to secure or advance a certain narrative? Dangerous ground to tread on!
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Post by verna on May 13, 2023 10:49:06 GMT -5
Ok i’m so confused. So bad people can be led by the hilt spirit and do good things? So what’s this about knowing a tree by it’s fruit? Seems contradictory. Of an overseer or a worker, or anyone, tells you he prayed about the matter and asked God to lead him by the Holy Spirit, you just wait and see. Having prayed about the matter, doesn't mean a person will be led by the Holy Spirit. They can claim so (claim to be a certain fruittree), but really the way things unfold (the fruit) will tell. So the Holy Spirit is pretty random then?
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Post by mdm on May 13, 2023 12:19:52 GMT -5
Covering up a sin like CSA is akin to sinning willfully. It's a conscious decision. "The girls get over it, and we need workers so bad" was the reasoning for decades if not a whole century. The secular world has progressed faster than the religious world on CSA. Here is yet another reason used for covering up SA: Jan 11, 2014 at 2:59pm QuotelikePost OptionsPost by Admin12 on Jan 11, 2014 at 2:59pm This was shared with me the other day by a young lady who was raped by her overseer when she was in the ministry. ************************************************** "The other day I was thinking about the comments some people make in regards to reporting crimes committed by workers/overseers or in regards to making people aware of those crimes so that they can be better able to protect themselves. They say that they can't do anything against "God's anointed". This might bother many victims and prevent them from speaking out but the thought came so clearly to me as if from God himself..."God didn't anoint that man to rape you, He didn't anoint any of the others to do the evil they have done. I thanked God for that thought and the comfort that it brought to me."
wingsbts.proboards.com/post/1670I've heard one overseer say "don't forget that we are God's anointed" when CSA was discussed. I understood it to mean that our input and criticism in handling these issues is not justified by our place in the kingdom - they are the ones "anointed" to handle such matters, not us. It seems that the "anointed" excuse has more than one applications.
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Post by openingact34 on May 13, 2023 12:30:15 GMT -5
"The girls get over it, and we need workers so bad" was the reasoning for decades if not a whole century. The secular world has progressed faster than the religious world on CSA. Here is yet another reason used for covering up SA: Jan 11, 2014 at 2:59pm QuotelikePost OptionsPost by Admin12 on Jan 11, 2014 at 2:59pm This was shared with me the other day by a young lady who was raped by her overseer when she was in the ministry. ************************************************** "The other day I was thinking about the comments some people make in regards to reporting crimes committed by workers/overseers or in regards to making people aware of those crimes so that they can be better able to protect themselves. They say that they can't do anything against "God's anointed". This might bother many victims and prevent them from speaking out but the thought came so clearly to me as if from God himself..."God didn't anoint that man to rape you, He didn't anoint any of the others to do the evil they have done. I thanked God for that thought and the comfort that it brought to me."
wingsbts.proboards.com/post/1670I've heard one overseer say "don't forget that we are God's anointed" when CSA was discussed. I understood it to mean that our input and criticism in handling these issues is not justified by our place in the kingdom - they are the ones "anointed" to handle such matters, not us. It seems that the "anointed" excuse has more than one applications. It's also referring to God's statement in Psalm 105: "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm."
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Post by openingact34 on May 13, 2023 12:41:23 GMT -5
Saying you have prayed about a matter and saying you're led by the Spirit could also be a means to justify your actions. Because, who dares to question you now? Exactly.
A scenario can go like this. "Dear worker, I want to play for the school basketball team, but my parents are concerned that it might draw me away from the meetings." "Well, you just pray about it, and I'm sure the Holy Spirit's voice will tell you which course is best for your salvation".
Reading between the lines, it is a "Big No", because that's the confirmation bias kicking in. Nothing to do with prayer of Holy Spirit at all. It's just a variant of the Prosperity Gospel's claims, but with different subject matter.
You are assuming that prayer doesn't work. If prayer actually works, then they will go off, have a conversation with God, and get an answer.
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Post by jonathan on May 13, 2023 13:36:18 GMT -5
But who knows if they really waited for and received an answer from God?
Because you have two parties who both claim to have prayed about the same matter, and both claim they're led by the Spirit, but the answers and the way the act is contrary to the other.
There is some problem somewhere, right?
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Post by snow on May 13, 2023 13:46:43 GMT -5
You're entitled to your belief in God, but I see no evidence for that belief. So if you think that my making right choices is somehow because of an 'Influence absent of bondage' go right ahead. But I will admit I have no idea what you're talking about here. In my world a god of any kind does not exist. It's only a belief in God if you act out what you say you believe. So belief in God is how I act it out and not a belief in my mind of something existent and tangible or a seperate entity, and technically saying "you are entitled to your belief in God" is not really possible for you to say because you really dont know me and If I act out what I say I actually believe in, and trust me I do not believe in my mind in some existent supernatural being let alone know how to act that out...... In the Hebrew worldview the existent God ceased to exist as well, by Jesus day the Hebrew G O D was most definitely something in you, it was not an existent God somewhere else that you believed in in your mind at all. I think what makes it confusing is people dont understand what these ancient people actually said about G O D and instead they only understand what the more modern Church has said about G O D, and that is G O D is a existent entity that has superpowers and will punish you if you do or dont xzy. So you are saying that Jesus didn't believe in an existing entity that was God? That everyone was 'God'? I know he does say that exact thing in John 'have I not told you ye are gods'. But what you are putting forth here sounds pretty New Age philosophy to me. I can't believe the Hebrews didn't believe in an entity they called God. Christians certainly see god as an entity. Especially since Jesus is supposedly an entity many Christians believe IS God.
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Post by snow on May 13, 2023 13:50:44 GMT -5
So the HS really has nothing to do with it then. If a person is bad the HS has no say and if a person is good you don't need an HS in order to do the right thing? The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin (John 16:8). He doesn't make decisions for you or tell you what to do, but sears right from wrong into your conscience.
While the indwelling of the H.S isn't inherit in everyone, I believe He does have an unction in every living soul, which makes us all accountable. (John 8:9)
To be honest I really don't know what Christians think the HS is or what it even does. I have read so many contradictory interpretations here. Thank you for trying to help me understand.
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Post by snow on May 13, 2023 13:51:46 GMT -5
The fruit of the actions, the results, will show of it was truly the unction of the Holy Spirit. Bad people can be led by the Spirt and do good things, like King Cyrus. Ok i’m so confused. So bad people can be led by the holy spirit and do good things? So what’s this about knowing a tree by it’s fruit? Seems contradictory. I am right there with you. I am trying to understand what Christians really think the HS is and what it does and how it makes people act, but I'm lost.
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Post by snow on May 13, 2023 13:54:28 GMT -5
Ok i’m so confused. So bad people can be led by the holy spirit and do good things? So what’s this about knowing a tree by it’s fruit? Seems contradictory. We all have the knowledge of good and evil, but nonbelievers as well as believers have a choice. A bad person can choose to do something good, just as a Christian can choose to do something bad. We are all fallible to some extent, but just as Peter denied knowing Christ 3 times, his over-riding fruit was good, while the Pharaoh releasing the Hebrews as good, but he wasn't generally a very nice guy.
Okay so what's the point of the HS at all? It's always been known that no one is all bad (they can do good things) and good people can do bad things. That is just how humans operate.
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Post by snow on May 13, 2023 13:56:09 GMT -5
Saying you have prayed about a matter and saying you're led by the Spirit could also be a means to justify your actions. Because, who dares to question you now? Exactly. A scenario can go like this. "Dear worker, I want to play for the school basketball team, but my parents are concerned that it might draw me away from the meetings." "Well, you just pray about it, and I'm sure the Holy Spirit's voice will tell you which course is best for your salvation". Reading between the lines, it is a "Big No", because that's the confirmation bias kicking in. Nothing to do with prayer of Holy Spirit at all. It's just a variant of the Prosperity Gospel's claims, but with different subject matter.
Sounds like spiritual abuse or in 'worldly terms' passive aggressive.
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Post by snow on May 13, 2023 14:02:39 GMT -5
Here is yet another reason used for covering up SA: Jan 11, 2014 at 2:59pm QuotelikePost OptionsPost by Admin12 on Jan 11, 2014 at 2:59pm This was shared with me the other day by a young lady who was raped by her overseer when she was in the ministry. ************************************************** "The other day I was thinking about the comments some people make in regards to reporting crimes committed by workers/overseers or in regards to making people aware of those crimes so that they can be better able to protect themselves. They say that they can't do anything against "God's anointed". This might bother many victims and prevent them from speaking out but the thought came so clearly to me as if from God himself..."God didn't anoint that man to rape you, He didn't anoint any of the others to do the evil they have done. I thanked God for that thought and the comfort that it brought to me."
wingsbts.proboards.com/post/1670I've heard one overseer say "don't forget that we are God's anointed" when CSA was discussed. I understood it to mean that our input and criticism in handling these issues is not justified by our place in the kingdom - they are the ones "anointed" to handle such matters, not us. It seems that the "anointed" excuse has more than one applications. It's also referring to God's statement in Psalm 105: "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm." Well if that doesn't cover it nothing does. The workers are God's anointed so the friends should never complain about abuse based on what the bible says. Throw the book away. It's got so many contradictions and immoral advice. It's no wonder that my 12 year old self quit professing after reading the story about god ordering the killing of everything, women, children, animals. When I tried to reconcile that with what I thought God was I couldn't. I went to the workers hoping they could help me because I wanted to be a worker some day and I wanted to know how to explain it to people when I was a worker. Well it soon became evident that they couldn't explain it. I'm sure they thought they did and it was just me 'unwilling' to accept their trying to justify a horrific act by their god. I couldn't worship that god. I knew at 12 that meant I was going to hell, but I just couldn't. I lived in fear but was resigned for many years.
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Post by verna on May 13, 2023 14:24:48 GMT -5
Ok i’m so confused. So bad people can be led by the holy spirit and do good things? So what’s this about knowing a tree by it’s fruit? Seems contradictory. I am right there with you. I am trying to understand what Christians really think the HS is and what it does and how it makes people act, but I'm lost. I suspect it might have something to do with being a ghost. Pretty hard to pin down! 😂
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Post by snow on May 13, 2023 14:30:29 GMT -5
I am right there with you. I am trying to understand what Christians really think the HS is and what it does and how it makes people act, but I'm lost. I suspect it might have something to do with being a ghost. Pretty hard to pin down! 😂 lol now why didn't I think of that... I wonder when the Holy Ghost started to be referred to as the Holy Spirit. I remember the workers baptizing in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost back when I was going to conventions.
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Post by neighbour on May 13, 2023 15:13:17 GMT -5
I suspect it might have something to do with being a ghost. Pretty hard to pin down! 😂 lol now why didn't I think of that... I wonder when the Holy Ghost started to be referred to as the Holy Spirit. I remember the workers baptizing in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost back when I was going to conventions. They still say Holy Ghost at baptisms.
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Post by snow on May 13, 2023 15:31:07 GMT -5
lol now why didn't I think of that... I wonder when the Holy Ghost started to be referred to as the Holy Spirit. I remember the workers baptizing in the name of the father, the son and the holy ghost back when I was going to conventions. They still say Holy Ghost at baptisms. Really, okay thanks for that info. Do they refer to it as the HS otherwise?
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Post by mrdobalina on May 13, 2023 15:53:34 GMT -5
The fruit of the actions, the results, will show of it was truly the unction of the Holy Spirit. Bad people can be led by the Spirt and do good things, like King Cyrus. Ok i’m so confused. So bad people can be led by the holy spirit and do good things? So what’s this about knowing a tree by it’s fruit? Seems contradictory. Pretty much sums up the entire Bible.
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Post by neighbour on May 13, 2023 16:25:03 GMT -5
They still say Holy Ghost at baptisms. Really, okay thanks for that info. Do they refer to it as the HS otherwise? Yes, we pray for the presence of the (Holy) Spirit at every meeting.
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Post by chuck on May 17, 2023 17:09:03 GMT -5
It's only a belief in God if you act out what you say you believe. So belief in God is how I act it out and not a belief in my mind of something existent and tangible or a seperate entity, and technically saying "you are entitled to your belief in God" is not really possible for you to say because you really dont know me and If I act out what I say I actually believe in, and trust me I do not believe in my mind in some existent supernatural being let alone know how to act that out...... In the Hebrew worldview the existent God ceased to exist as well, by Jesus day the Hebrew G O D was most definitely something in you, it was not an existent God somewhere else that you believed in in your mind at all. I think what makes it confusing is people dont understand what these ancient people actually said about G O D and instead they only understand what the more modern Church has said about G O D, and that is G O D is a existent entity that has superpowers and will punish you if you do or dont xzy. So you are saying that Jesus didn't believe in an existing entity that was God? That everyone was 'God'? I know he does say that exact thing in John 'have I not told you ye are gods'. But what you are putting forth here sounds pretty New Age philosophy to me. I can't believe the Hebrews didn't believe in an entity they called God. Christians certainly see god as an entity. Especially since Jesus is supposedly an entity many Christians believe IS God. We can see throughout the scriptures God was recognised very differently as time went on. Abraham and Moses represent when God was in the sky, The burning bush story is a representation of God, a fire that never burnt out, Moses most likely represents people who thought God was the sun/fire. Then Moses say's God is closer and god went from in the sky to in the Tabernacle. Then David put God in the temple. The gospel writers then say God was represented in Jesus, we see the gospel writers use language like "I am the father and the father is in me" To Hebrew people this father son language is like saying the son is of similar Character to the father, so the father being in Jesus is the gospel writers saying Jesus is of similar character to God, God is in Jesus or another way they express it is Jesus is God in flesh, this shouldn't be any surprise as Caeser's was God and the whole Jesus story is the contrast between to the ways of life of Caeser's who brought peace by way of the sword or Jesus who brought peace by way of the Character of the Hebrew God otherwise know as the LORD. Some writers describe it as God is spirit. Like the father and son spirit represents an influence, not an existent entity. Also keep in mind in the time represented by Moses was when they said things like this... “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. - Exodus 20:4 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus20:4&version=NIVHebrews after Moses knew you don't put form to God, God could not be and existent entity as that is idolatry. Jesus knew this so I really dont see how you can say its new age and the Hebrews believed in an existent entity. God basically represents your highest ideals, the Hebrew God was the LORD(no other Gods before me), in the story of Jesus this was manifest in a man, God was not an entity or something that exists but rather characteristics that one prioritised in their life, these Characteristics where know as the LORD, this is why God remains undefinable or we cannot put form to God or Gods. The Christ are what later writers define as characteristics that should be God in your life. Christians and Atheists today in general put form to God, they are opposite ends of the same spectrum, this spectrum is ignorant of what the Hebrew story is all about which is the gracious compassionate slow to anger and abounding in love and forgiveness Character should preceded all other Gods in your life. The scriptures are stories of this within the context of the time periods represented. Arguing that God is some existent enity totally misses the point but yet it seems that is were the battle lines have been drawn.
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Post by mdm on May 18, 2023 19:52:16 GMT -5
I wonder who the enablers were in this case? ex2x2.info/2023/04/01/my-testimony/Incognito ~ My Testimony, 2023 I’m sorry this is so long, but this is the first time just putting it all out there and, I think it’s going to be therapeutic just vomiting all these words. I would prefer, for now, to remain incognito, but perhaps with time I will feel more comfortable with exposure. I was raised in the Meetings in North Central Florida. We (my brother and I) attended Sunday meeting at a prominently known family’s home within the sect that is/are well known throughout the state and even by surrounding states. It was the only life I really knew. When I was just barely out of elementary school, our Mother passed away unexpectedly. Dad, I have to say, while I know it had to be such a struggle raising two young children, did the best he could. Just prior to our Mother passing away, an elderly, single man, well respected within the meetings had moved from a nearby meeting (one that joined our meeting monthly for worship). All kids called him Grandpa_____. I only saw him at meetings at that point. However, once Mom passed, “Grandpa” seemed to take a keen interest in Dad, and I suppose Dad saw it as support and friendship in his newfound vulnerability. “Grandpa” suddenly was at our house quite often. Two months after Mom died, summer break was upon us, and Dad struggled with what to do with us kids. He finally decided I was old enough to look after my brother if we stayed inside till he got home from work. From almost day one, “Grandpa” started showing up at the house soon after Dad left for work. I’m sure you all know where this is leading. Yes…the molestation started. He would tell my little brother to go outside and play. I remember the fear and shame. There was nowhere to hide from him. He would always tell me “Now be a good girl and let me…” I think, even after all these years, there are probably a few things I still suppress. I can never recall him telling me not to tell anyone. However, somehow, I knew not to? First, this was someone that was, in all accounts, my Dad’s best friend. He was revered by all adults who were a part of my life. I didn’t think anyone would ever believe me anyway. They certainly wouldn’t believe it wasn’t my fault, right? So I suffered in silence…for a year, when he unexpectedly died from a heart condition. I, to this day, feel nauseous when I see a yellow VW bug car (what he drove). A few years later (while in high school) I was staying the night with one of the young girls in my meeting on a weekend (as we often did), and for whatever reason, I started crying and just spilled all that was on my heart. I let out all the pain. I needed to grieve. I needed to grieve my mother’s untimely death, the atrocities that had occurred thereafter, and the deep shame I carried every damn day on my shoulders. I lived every day thinking I was going to hell. That somehow, I had brought this on myself. Somehow, I MADE “Grandpa” do bad things. Imagine my SHOCK, when she started crying and said he did it to her and her little sister too. The two of us spoke in depth and as to whether we should tell someone. We found strength in each other that we didn’t feel in doing alone. We decided to go to her Mom and tell her. She was horrified! I remember hearing her and her husband yelling at each other soon after in their bedroom. Quite a heated discussion. I only learned later, this was because the husband was aware of “Grandpa’s” deviant ways. Apparently “Grandpa” had been moved by the overseer worker in the state from his original meeting to our meeting because one of his previous victims wanted to start coming back to meeting, and they wanted to separate them. While this man knew, my father knew nothing of “Grandpa’s” history. Grandpa had a long history, including molesting his own daughter, granddaughter and who knows who else. I personally know of 7 victims in a 15 mile radius of the meeting we attended. He was known to frequent another midwestern state at times as well. The ones I knew of spanned over 40 years. A predator doesn’t take lengthy breaks. I’m positive there are more victims out there. I can’t say what occurred after this, if anything. I was still a kid. I do know that I was never questioned by a worker or any leader of a meeting. Maybe her Mom and my Dad chose not to say anything to anyone. He was already dead. Maybe they chose simply to protect us experiencing exposure at that point? Speculation. I stayed in the meetings till 1993. I did profess, as I felt was expected of me, in my early teens, but always felt a certain detachment. I think I had a deep-seated resentment really. Anger, if you will. Once an adult, I continued to occasionally relive those conversations that were had with adults once I told on Grandpa. I remember it being called “indiscretions”. No…let’s not put a pretty word on it. It was RAPE. It was just as illegal then as is now. WHY was this man never turned into police? Workers knew of actual rapes. Yet, they simply quietly moved him to a different meeting. A meeting with small young girls! Keep it hush hush! He continues to take part in meeting. Partakes in the bread and wine…yet, the sweet, faithful lady with the small child in the meeting doesn’t get to take part anymore because she divorced her abusive husband who beat her senseless numerous times. I struggled with this in my maturing mind, and my anger continued to grow. When attending a Milford New Hampshire convention, I heard of a prominent individual doing much of the same thing there and they just moved him to a different meeting. Something in me snapped. I knew I couldn’t have any part of this anymore. This was wrong, and being newly married with a newborn, I refused to expose my child and future children to a culture that was cultivating this. I’ve never looked back. While I still hold resentment to any adult figure who knew what was happening and held their tongue and in essence enabled there to be yet more victims (me), I truly love those who I remain close with. The people in the meeting as a whole are good people with good intentions. They are simply conditioned to act in a way to certain situations. They truly think they are doing right. I do know that when I left the meeting, I went through a period of about three years where I was basically ostracized. People were colder initially to me. I don’t know if I was seen as a threat or as someone who was thought would “lure” others out? It was strange, and quite frankly hurt. However, it only solidified that I had made the right decision. You would think that a religion that believes they are the “only way” would do all they could to make others feel welcome, despite any of what they consider short fallings. I also had issues over workers deciding who could and could not take part in meetings. Don’t we all have something to add? Does God not want to hear what is on the heart of the sinner or the downtrodden? I could go on and on. There are just so many “rules” that just made no sense and could never really be explained. Instead, it was “just the way it was done”. I have often commented just how MANY people who are in the meeting or were formerly who have so many mental health issues! What is happening to all these people? What are their stories? Thank you for allowing me to vent. My heart is with all victims everywhere. I truly know and feel your pain. You matter and your journey matters. God loves YOU. Incognito Posted on Ex-2×2 Support Group March 31, 2023
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2023 20:13:19 GMT -5
I wonder who the enablers were in this case? ex2x2.info/2023/04/01/my-testimony/Incognito ~ My Testimony, 2023 I’m sorry this is so long, but this is the first time just putting it all out there and, I think it’s going to be therapeutic just vomiting all these words. I would prefer, for now, to remain incognito, but perhaps with time I will feel more comfortable with exposure. I was raised in the Meetings in North Central Florida. We (my brother and I) attended Sunday meeting at a prominently known family’s home within the sect that is/are well known throughout the state and even by surrounding states. It was the only life I really knew. When I was just barely out of elementary school, our Mother passed away unexpectedly. Dad, I have to say, while I know it had to be such a struggle raising two young children, did the best he could. Just prior to our Mother passing away, an elderly, single man, well respected within the meetings had moved from a nearby meeting (one that joined our meeting monthly for worship). All kids called him Grandpa_____. I only saw him at meetings at that point. However, once Mom passed, “Grandpa” seemed to take a keen interest in Dad, and I suppose Dad saw it as support and friendship in his newfound vulnerability. “Grandpa” suddenly was at our house quite often. Two months after Mom died, summer break was upon us, and Dad struggled with what to do with us kids. He finally decided I was old enough to look after my brother if we stayed inside till he got home from work. From almost day one, “Grandpa” started showing up at the house soon after Dad left for work. I’m sure you all know where this is leading. Yes…the molestation started. He would tell my little brother to go outside and play. I remember the fear and shame. There was nowhere to hide from him. He would always tell me “Now be a good girl and let me…” I think, even after all these years, there are probably a few things I still suppress. I can never recall him telling me not to tell anyone. However, somehow, I knew not to? First, this was someone that was, in all accounts, my Dad’s best friend. He was revered by all adults who were a part of my life. I didn’t think anyone would ever believe me anyway. They certainly wouldn’t believe it wasn’t my fault, right? So I suffered in silence…for a year, when he unexpectedly died from a heart condition. I, to this day, feel nauseous when I see a yellow VW bug car (what he drove). A few years later (while in high school) I was staying the night with one of the young girls in my meeting on a weekend (as we often did), and for whatever reason, I started crying and just spilled all that was on my heart. I let out all the pain. I needed to grieve. I needed to grieve my mother’s untimely death, the atrocities that had occurred thereafter, and the deep shame I carried every damn day on my shoulders. I lived every day thinking I was going to hell. That somehow, I had brought this on myself. Somehow, I MADE “Grandpa” do bad things. Imagine my SHOCK, when she started crying and said he did it to her and her little sister too. The two of us spoke in depth and as to whether we should tell someone. We found strength in each other that we didn’t feel in doing alone. We decided to go to her Mom and tell her. She was horrified! I remember hearing her and her husband yelling at each other soon after in their bedroom. Quite a heated discussion. I only learned later, this was because the husband was aware of “Grandpa’s” deviant ways. Apparently “Grandpa” had been moved by the overseer worker in the state from his original meeting to our meeting because one of his previous victims wanted to start coming back to meeting, and they wanted to separate them. While this man knew, my father knew nothing of “Grandpa’s” history. Grandpa had a long history, including molesting his own daughter, granddaughter and who knows who else. I personally know of 7 victims in a 15 mile radius of the meeting we attended. He was known to frequent another midwestern state at times as well. The ones I knew of spanned over 40 years. A predator doesn’t take lengthy breaks. I’m positive there are more victims out there. I can’t say what occurred after this, if anything. I was still a kid. I do know that I was never questioned by a worker or any leader of a meeting. Maybe her Mom and my Dad chose not to say anything to anyone. He was already dead. Maybe they chose simply to protect us experiencing exposure at that point? Speculation. I stayed in the meetings till 1993. I did profess, as I felt was expected of me, in my early teens, but always felt a certain detachment. I think I had a deep-seated resentment really. Anger, if you will. Once an adult, I continued to occasionally relive those conversations that were had with adults once I told on Grandpa. I remember it being called “indiscretions”. No…let’s not put a pretty word on it. It was RAPE. It was just as illegal then as is now. WHY was this man never turned into police? Workers knew of actual rapes. Yet, they simply quietly moved him to a different meeting. A meeting with small young girls! Keep it hush hush! He continues to take part in meeting. Partakes in the bread and wine…yet, the sweet, faithful lady with the small child in the meeting doesn’t get to take part anymore because she divorced her abusive husband who beat her senseless numerous times. I struggled with this in my maturing mind, and my anger continued to grow. When attending a Milford New Hampshire convention, I heard of a prominent individual doing much of the same thing there and they just moved him to a different meeting. Something in me snapped. I knew I couldn’t have any part of this anymore. This was wrong, and being newly married with a newborn, I refused to expose my child and future children to a culture that was cultivating this. I’ve never looked back. While I still hold resentment to any adult figure who knew what was happening and held their tongue and in essence enabled there to be yet more victims (me), I truly love those who I remain close with. The people in the meeting as a whole are good people with good intentions. They are simply conditioned to act in a way to certain situations. They truly think they are doing right. I do know that when I left the meeting, I went through a period of about three years where I was basically ostracized. People were colder initially to me. I don’t know if I was seen as a threat or as someone who was thought would “lure” others out? It was strange, and quite frankly hurt. However, it only solidified that I had made the right decision. You would think that a religion that believes they are the “only way” would do all they could to make others feel welcome, despite any of what they consider short fallings. I also had issues over workers deciding who could and could not take part in meetings. Don’t we all have something to add? Does God not want to hear what is on the heart of the sinner or the downtrodden? I could go on and on. There are just so many “rules” that just made no sense and could never really be explained. Instead, it was “just the way it was done”. I have often commented just how MANY people who are in the meeting or were formerly who have so many mental health issues! What is happening to all these people? What are their stories? Thank you for allowing me to vent. My heart is with all victims everywhere. I truly know and feel your pain. You matter and your journey matters. God loves YOU. Incognito Posted on Ex-2×2 Support Group March 31, 2023 Boggles the old mind, and I'm not even a victim...
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Post by Pragmatic on May 18, 2023 20:46:39 GMT -5
I wonder who the enablers were in this case? ex2x2.info/2023/04/01/my-testimony/Incognito ~ My Testimony, 2023 I’m sorry this is so long, but this is the first time just putting it all out there and, I think it’s going to be therapeutic just vomiting all these words. I would prefer, for now, to remain incognito, but perhaps with time I will feel more comfortable with exposure. I was raised in the Meetings in North Central Florida. We (my brother and I) attended Sunday meeting at a prominently known family’s home within the sect that is/are well known throughout the state and even by surrounding states. It was the only life I really knew. When I was just barely out of elementary school, our Mother passed away unexpectedly. Dad, I have to say, while I know it had to be such a struggle raising two young children, did the best he could. Just prior to our Mother passing away, an elderly, single man, well respected within the meetings had moved from a nearby meeting (one that joined our meeting monthly for worship). All kids called him Grandpa_____. I only saw him at meetings at that point. However, once Mom passed, “Grandpa” seemed to take a keen interest in Dad, and I suppose Dad saw it as support and friendship in his newfound vulnerability. “Grandpa” suddenly was at our house quite often. Two months after Mom died, summer break was upon us, and Dad struggled with what to do with us kids. He finally decided I was old enough to look after my brother if we stayed inside till he got home from work. From almost day one, “Grandpa” started showing up at the house soon after Dad left for work. I’m sure you all know where this is leading. Yes…the molestation started. He would tell my little brother to go outside and play. I remember the fear and shame. There was nowhere to hide from him. He would always tell me “Now be a good girl and let me…” I think, even after all these years, there are probably a few things I still suppress. I can never recall him telling me not to tell anyone. However, somehow, I knew not to? First, this was someone that was, in all accounts, my Dad’s best friend. He was revered by all adults who were a part of my life. I didn’t think anyone would ever believe me anyway. They certainly wouldn’t believe it wasn’t my fault, right? So I suffered in silence…for a year, when he unexpectedly died from a heart condition. I, to this day, feel nauseous when I see a yellow VW bug car (what he drove). A few years later (while in high school) I was staying the night with one of the young girls in my meeting on a weekend (as we often did), and for whatever reason, I started crying and just spilled all that was on my heart. I let out all the pain. I needed to grieve. I needed to grieve my mother’s untimely death, the atrocities that had occurred thereafter, and the deep shame I carried every damn day on my shoulders. I lived every day thinking I was going to hell. That somehow, I had brought this on myself. Somehow, I MADE “Grandpa” do bad things. Imagine my SHOCK, when she started crying and said he did it to her and her little sister too. The two of us spoke in depth and as to whether we should tell someone. We found strength in each other that we didn’t feel in doing alone. We decided to go to her Mom and tell her. She was horrified! I remember hearing her and her husband yelling at each other soon after in their bedroom. Quite a heated discussion. I only learned later, this was because the husband was aware of “Grandpa’s” deviant ways. Apparently “Grandpa” had been moved by the overseer worker in the state from his original meeting to our meeting because one of his previous victims wanted to start coming back to meeting, and they wanted to separate them. While this man knew, my father knew nothing of “Grandpa’s” history. Grandpa had a long history, including molesting his own daughter, granddaughter and who knows who else. I personally know of 7 victims in a 15 mile radius of the meeting we attended. He was known to frequent another midwestern state at times as well. The ones I knew of spanned over 40 years. A predator doesn’t take lengthy breaks. I’m positive there are more victims out there. I can’t say what occurred after this, if anything. I was still a kid. I do know that I was never questioned by a worker or any leader of a meeting. Maybe her Mom and my Dad chose not to say anything to anyone. He was already dead. Maybe they chose simply to protect us experiencing exposure at that point? Speculation. I stayed in the meetings till 1993. I did profess, as I felt was expected of me, in my early teens, but always felt a certain detachment. I think I had a deep-seated resentment really. Anger, if you will. Once an adult, I continued to occasionally relive those conversations that were had with adults once I told on Grandpa. I remember it being called “indiscretions”. No…let’s not put a pretty word on it. It was RAPE. It was just as illegal then as is now. WHY was this man never turned into police? Workers knew of actual rapes. Yet, they simply quietly moved him to a different meeting. A meeting with small young girls! Keep it hush hush! He continues to take part in meeting. Partakes in the bread and wine…yet, the sweet, faithful lady with the small child in the meeting doesn’t get to take part anymore because she divorced her abusive husband who beat her senseless numerous times. I struggled with this in my maturing mind, and my anger continued to grow. When attending a Milford New Hampshire convention, I heard of a prominent individual doing much of the same thing there and they just moved him to a different meeting. Something in me snapped. I knew I couldn’t have any part of this anymore. This was wrong, and being newly married with a newborn, I refused to expose my child and future children to a culture that was cultivating this. I’ve never looked back. While I still hold resentment to any adult figure who knew what was happening and held their tongue and in essence enabled there to be yet more victims (me), I truly love those who I remain close with. The people in the meeting as a whole are good people with good intentions. They are simply conditioned to act in a way to certain situations. They truly think they are doing right. I do know that when I left the meeting, I went through a period of about three years where I was basically ostracized. People were colder initially to me. I don’t know if I was seen as a threat or as someone who was thought would “lure” others out? It was strange, and quite frankly hurt. However, it only solidified that I had made the right decision. You would think that a religion that believes they are the “only way” would do all they could to make others feel welcome, despite any of what they consider short fallings. I also had issues over workers deciding who could and could not take part in meetings. Don’t we all have something to add? Does God not want to hear what is on the heart of the sinner or the downtrodden? I could go on and on. There are just so many “rules” that just made no sense and could never really be explained. Instead, it was “just the way it was done”. I have often commented just how MANY people who are in the meeting or were formerly who have so many mental health issues! What is happening to all these people? What are their stories? Thank you for allowing me to vent. My heart is with all victims everywhere. I truly know and feel your pain. You matter and your journey matters. God loves YOU. Incognito Posted on Ex-2×2 Support Group March 31, 2023 This is so sad - on so many levels.
I have seen it even here with other types of issues, where someone has left the church, and some of the friends will cross the street, rather than make eye contact even. I believe it is a form of social immaturity manifesting itself, where they are simply not equipped to even converse with someone, who in their mind, has rejected the church they are still in. It's as if they are trying to avoid an awkward conversation, I guess. And our church isn't unique. I have seen it in a number of other churches too, especially where they are a closed group (more so in previous generations, I might add).
The pain and hurt is almost unfathomable for this person.
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Post by getreal on May 18, 2023 22:59:41 GMT -5
😥 sad beyond words. No words. This is monstrous. There is no where to hide for these men.
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Post by rebekah on Jun 3, 2023 11:07:52 GMT -5
That they're not owning up to what they've done, apologise and step away from the work is a reflection of their character abd conscience. Also indicative of lack of integrity. Are they waiting to see if perhaps the falling axe will miss them? It boggles me that they can still continue. Where is the respect for truth? The longer they delay to own up, the more angry people will be. My abuser said that 'God still wants him to be in the work, so he can't leave the work. God can forgive his sins by the blood of Jesus'. He was sorry that he got caught. He wasn't sorry that he abused me. His actions traumatised me. I ended up with mild PTSD. He doesn't care one bit about my well-being even though he's supposed to be 'a shepherd'. I’m sorry that happened…. That is truly horrible.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 11:13:05 GMT -5
My abuser said that 'God still wants him to be in the work, so he can't leave the work. God can forgive his sins by the blood of Jesus'. He was sorry that he got caught. He wasn't sorry that he abused me. His actions traumatised me. I ended up with mild PTSD. He doesn't care one bit about my well-being even though he's supposed to be 'a shepherd'. I’m sorry that happened…. That is truly horrible. I am sorry, too! So terrible that someone could abuse a child and then talk about God and the blood of Jesus. Sure, there can be repentance, but that would require an acknowledgement of their wrong, not just an acknowledgement before God, but also to the victim and to the law. PM me if you need someone to talk to. I can't change what people have done. But I can offer an ear and care to you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 12:16:22 GMT -5
Interesting that many of the friends have no knowledge of any CSA, but it' not unique to the 2x2. Only about 2% of accused priests ever made it to jail, for many reasons covered in this webpage - Why Don’t Priests Go To Prison Following Sexual Abuse Charges?- "The majority of people in Pennsylvania are still unaware of how widespread the issue is or the efforts of the Catholic Church to actively prevent the terrible publicity of priests going to prison for their crimes."
If this is true for the Catholic Church, then how much more so for the 2x2?
- Moving Clergy aka "Passing The Trash”
I have never heard this phrase before, but it fits.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 20:46:22 GMT -5
I think its more of a case of not believing the allegations. A Workers word against a complainant usually favors the Worker. Especially when an incident is years if not decades old and has no witnesses to support the charge.
Making a bad decision does not warrant stepping down unless it was done in the face of multiple complaints against a single person. In which case, a cover-up would be indicated.
I think it’s intentionally covered up based on personal experience when I reported an abuser to an overseer so we could change Wednesday night meetings from my wife’s abusers home. This was years after 4 mothers knew about what happened. The same abuser had an adult son who abused my wife and other girls when they were young. Nothing done. I told a female worker years later Nothing done I imagine I am not alone in witnessing this his behavior. I'm so sorry to hear of your wife's abuse and of your cries falling on deaf ears. We hope that today God is taking care of bother the abusers and the ones who didn't stop them.
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