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Post by luke2236 on May 10, 2023 21:11:20 GMT -5
Isn’t it amazing how fast the accused are stepping down now?
It’s equally amazing that overseers and workers who covered up CSA and SA are not stepping down…..
This is not coincidence…
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Post by openingact34 on May 10, 2023 21:25:40 GMT -5
The commoners think this is all about getting rid of predators or something, and maybe it started that way.
But also remember that there are two warring factions in North America that hate each other going back to Jack Carroll and George Walker. I'm sure that the two current super-overseers are trying to figure out how they can each leverage the scandal to topple the other.
Barry Barkley and "The East" desperately want to depose Dale Schultz and "The West" and rule all of North America. Dale Schultz and "The West" desperately want to depose Barry Barkley and "The East" and rule all of North America.
You can bet they have dirt on each other and the underlings. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that some of the accusations will be arranged to surface now because one side thinks it will weaken the other.
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Post by Dan on May 10, 2023 21:36:37 GMT -5
Isn’t it amazing how fast the accused are stepping down now? It’s equally amazing that overseers and workers who covered up CSA and SA are not stepping down….. This is not coincidence…
I think its more of a case of not believing the allegations. A Workers word against a complainant usually favors the Worker. Especially when an incident is years if not decades old and has no witnesses to support the charge.
Making a bad decision does not warrant stepping down unless it was done in the face of multiple complaints against a single person. In which case, a cover-up would be indicated.
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Post by luke2236 on May 10, 2023 21:45:02 GMT -5
Isn’t it amazing how fast the accused are stepping down now? It’s equally amazing that overseers and workers who covered up CSA and SA are not stepping down….. This is not coincidence…
I think its more of a case of not believing the allegations. A Workers word against a complainant usually favors the Worker. Especially when an incident is years if not decades old and has no witnesses to support the charge.
Making a bad decision does not warrant stepping down unless it was done in the face of multiple complaints against a single person. In which case, a cover-up would be indicated.
I think it’s intentionally covered up based on personal experience when I reported an abuser to an overseer so we could change Wednesday night meetings from my wife’s abusers home. This was years after 4 mothers knew about what happened. The same abuser had an adult son who abused my wife and other girls when they were young. Nothing done. I told a female worker years later Nothing done I imagine I am not alone in witnessing this his behavior.
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Post by mdm on May 10, 2023 23:51:16 GMT -5
Some of the workers removed recently I've never heard of, and some I have because they were known for at least immorality. There are some who are still in the work, whose names are known for the same. The top overseers know about them. That's one more proof that they are removing them from the work only if they are forced to by by outside pressure.
I was horrified to hear that one of the workers removed has been accused of abuse. I've only heard of consensual relationships with regard to him. I've always thought that they can't cleanse the ministry without removing the immoral, not just the abusers. Not only because immorality goes against everything they preach, but also because it can lead to abuse and more importantly because it may be impossible to distinguish from abuse.
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jane
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Post by jane on May 10, 2023 23:57:31 GMT -5
Isn’t it amazing how fast the accused are stepping down now? It’s equally amazing that overseers and workers who covered up CSA and SA are not stepping down….. This is not coincidence… If all who covered up CSA and SA stepped down...we would lose the majority of our workers and many elders. I would love to see some say, 'i made some very hurtful choices and i regret them deeply, i'm going to take a bit of time to apologize to those I have hurt, educate myself and get some counseling.' But that is doubtful we will ever see that.
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Post by luke2236 on May 10, 2023 23:58:58 GMT -5
Isn’t it amazing how fast the accused are stepping down now? It’s equally amazing that overseers and workers who covered up CSA and SA are not stepping down….. This is not coincidence… If all who covered up CSA and SA stepped down...we would lose the majority of our workers and many elders. I would love to see some say, 'i made some very hurtful choices and i regret them deeply, i'm going to take a bit of time to apologize to those I have hurt, educate myself and get some counseling.' But that is doubtful we will ever see that. We could start with the Big three
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Post by jonathan on May 11, 2023 0:21:42 GMT -5
The integrity and credibility of workers involved in cover-ups are compromised.
No matter how many will have to go, or how few will be left. Right is right, and wrong is wrong.
Far better to have few and we know what we have than have more and we're not quite sure about their integrity.
Covering up criminality, immorality or any breach of sound doctrine makes one complicit, which carries the same penalty.
My question is how did their conscience not bother them?
Upholding sound doctrine is required of those in the ministry. Not just my lip, in actions too.
Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. (KJV)
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Post by luke2236 on May 11, 2023 0:32:58 GMT -5
Some of the workers removed recently I've never heard of, and some I have because they were known for at least immorality. There are some who are still in the work, whose names are known for the same. The top overseers know about them. That's one more proof that they are removing them from the work only if they are forced to by by outside pressure. I was horrified to hear that one of the workers removed has been accused of abuse. I've only heard of consensual relationships with regard to him. I've always thought that they can't cleanse the ministry without removing the immoral, not just the abusers. Not only because immorality goes against everything they preach, but also because it can lead to abuse and more importantly because it may be impossible to distinguish from abuse. It’s still a power relationship, and illegal. Consent doesn’t matter. www.mprnews.org/amp/story/newscut/2013/11/court-conviction-of-priest-did-not-violate-constitution
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Post by luke2236 on May 11, 2023 0:34:57 GMT -5
The integrity and credibility of workers involved in cover-ups are compromised. No matter how many will have to go, or how few will be left. Right is right, and wrong is wrong. Far better to have few and we know what we have than have more and we're not quite sure about their integrity. Covering up criminality, immorality or any breach of sound doctrine makes one complicit, which carries the same penalty. My question is how did their conscience not bother them? Upholding sound doctrine is required of those in the ministry. Not just my lip, in actions too. Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. (KJV) I don’t see how you can trust that they are driven by the spirit if they are covering up crimes. Even now, they are booting these workers left and right to try to show they take this seriously. How many victims would have been prevented if they had acted appropriately and got these people out of children’s homes?
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Post by jonathan on May 11, 2023 0:52:02 GMT -5
There are workers who don't have confidence in them. A tree is known by its fruit...
Not all workers have wool pulled over their eyes. Some have the courage of conviction to speak out against it, and we're ridiculed.
Some post on this board because they feel they have to show sympathy and respect for the victims. All victims of all abuse.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 11, 2023 0:55:36 GMT -5
Some of the workers removed recently I've never heard of, and some I have because they were known for at least immorality. There are some who are still in the work, whose names are known for the same. The top overseers know about them. That's one more proof that they are removing them from the work only if they are forced to by by outside pressure. I was horrified to hear that one of the workers removed has been accused of abuse. I've only heard of consensual relationships with regard to him. I've always thought that they can't cleanse the ministry without removing the immoral, not just the abusers. Not only because immorality goes against everything they preach, but also because it can lead to abuse and more importantly because it may be impossible to distinguish from abuse. It’s still a power relationship, and illegal. Consent doesn’t matter. www.mprnews.org/amp/story/newscut/2013/11/court-conviction-of-priest-did-not-violate-constitutionIn our country this applies to Health Practitioners with Patients, and other similar power imbalance scenarios too. Usually the power is wielded by the Governing Association and the Law is involved if the act is deemed to be illegal. Eg; a Psychiatrist having an affair with a patient could see him struck off. Raping a patient would see him prosecuted and struck off.
Sometimes I wonder if it is bit too strong. What if a single female patient with an earache sees a single male doctor, and they begin a consensual relationship? He would still get struck off, if found out, or she would need to change doctors. I think there needs to be some nuance, but not sure how, in law.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2023 1:41:56 GMT -5
The commoners think this is all about getting rid of predators or something, and maybe it started that way. But also remember that there are two warring factions in North America that hate each other going back to Jack Carroll and George Walker. I'm sure that the two current super-overseers are trying to figure out how they can each leverage the scandal to topple the other. Barry Barkley and "The East" desperately want to depose Dale Schultz and "The West" and rule all of North America. Dale Schultz and "The West" desperately want to depose Barry Barkley and "The East" and rule all of North America. You can bet they have dirt on each other and the underlings. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that some of the accusations will be arranged to surface now because one side thinks it will weaken the other. The "East" has swallowed up almost all of the "West" without firing a shot. It's pretty much over. WA, AK, ID, OR and CA are all that's left of the "West"...
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Post by jonathan on May 11, 2023 2:46:12 GMT -5
If say just 75% of the allegations of cover-ups and immorality among the oversight is found to be true, it seems few will be left standing.
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Post by mountain on May 11, 2023 3:00:20 GMT -5
Isn’t it amazing how fast the accused are stepping down now? It’s equally amazing that overseers and workers who covered up CSA and SA are not stepping down…..
This is not coincidence… There are two obvious explanations for this. Those involved in the cover ups are at the top of the tree, are well on in life and face a bleak future without their control of their livelihood, etc. It's only natural. The second explanation is 'if someone is going to step down, then that requires someone to step up?' If you were a younger worker or one down the pecking order, would you be willing to take the top job at this particular time? I'm sure most are considering what they are going to do next if things go pear shaped? They will be looking for a safety net, not more exposure and attempting to sort out problems caused by their predecessors.
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Post by jonathan on May 11, 2023 3:14:24 GMT -5
Quite something to consider, mountain.
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Post by openingact34 on May 11, 2023 4:56:26 GMT -5
The commoners think this is all about getting rid of predators or something, and maybe it started that way. But also remember that there are two warring factions in North America that hate each other going back to Jack Carroll and George Walker. I'm sure that the two current super-overseers are trying to figure out how they can each leverage the scandal to topple the other. Barry Barkley and "The East" desperately want to depose Dale Schultz and "The West" and rule all of North America. Dale Schultz and "The West" desperately want to depose Barry Barkley and "The East" and rule all of North America. You can bet they have dirt on each other and the underlings. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that some of the accusations will be arranged to surface now because one side thinks it will weaken the other. The "East" has swallowed up almost all of the "West" without firing a shot. It's pretty much over. WA, AK, ID, OR and CA are all that's left of the "West"... Interesting. What is the power split in Canadian provinces?
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Post by openingact34 on May 11, 2023 5:15:58 GMT -5
The commoners think this is all about getting rid of predators or something, and maybe it started that way. But also remember that there are two warring factions in North America that hate each other going back to Jack Carroll and George Walker. I'm sure that the two current super-overseers are trying to figure out how they can each leverage the scandal to topple the other. Barry Barkley and "The East" desperately want to depose Dale Schultz and "The West" and rule all of North America. Dale Schultz and "The West" desperately want to depose Barry Barkley and "The East" and rule all of North America. You can bet they have dirt on each other and the underlings. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that some of the accusations will be arranged to surface now because one side thinks it will weaken the other. The "East" has swallowed up almost all of the "West" without firing a shot. It's pretty much over. WA, AK, ID, OR and CA are all that's left of the "West"... I heard a rumor that there was another high level discussion/ruling related to divorce and remarriage in the last couple weeks. It didn't make sense to me why they were worried about that right now and it seemed like the West rules were going to win out. Is there maybe a surrender deal in the works?....the West submits to Barry and in return the East adopts the worldwide D&R ruling from the council of 1938.
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Post by luke2236 on May 11, 2023 7:43:55 GMT -5
In our country this applies to Health Practitioners with Patients, and other similar power imbalance scenarios too. Usually the power is wielded by the Governing Association and the Law is involved if the act is deemed to be illegal. Eg; a Psychiatrist having an affair with a patient could see him struck off. Raping a patient would see him prosecuted and struck off.
Sometimes I wonder if it is bit too strong. What if a single female patient with an earache sees a single male doctor, and they begin a consensual relationship? He would still get struck off, if found out, or she would need to change doctors. I think there needs to be some nuance, but not sure how, in law. Maybe after the ear ache goes away she could switch doctors.
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Post by luke2236 on May 11, 2023 7:49:24 GMT -5
Isn’t it amazing how fast the accused are stepping down now? It’s equally amazing that overseers and workers who covered up CSA and SA are not stepping down…..
This is not coincidence… There are two obvious explanations for this. Those involved in the cover ups are at the top of the tree, are well on in life and face a bleak future without their control of their livelihood, etc. It's only natural. The second explanation is 'if someone is going to step down, then that requires someone to step up?' If you were a younger worker or one down the pecking order, would you be willing to take the top job at this particular time? I'm sure most are considering what they are going to do next if things go pear shaped? They will be looking for a safety net, not more exposure and attempting to sort out problems caused by their predecessors. Ray H sent word on the MN situation (which by MN law is illegal and a felony) that the son of the lover lied, then days later the the former MN stepped down. Ray is supposed to be the new top guy. I find this very odd.
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Post by christiansburg on May 11, 2023 7:56:05 GMT -5
The commoners think this is all about getting rid of predators or something, and maybe it started that way. But also remember that there are two warring factions in North America that hate each other going back to Jack Carroll and George Walker. I'm sure that the two current super-overseers are trying to figure out how they can each leverage the scandal to topple the other. Barry Barkley and "The East" desperately want to depose Dale Schultz and "The West" and rule all of North America. Dale Schultz and "The West" desperately want to depose Barry Barkley and "The East" and rule all of North America. You can bet they have dirt on each other and the underlings. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that some of the accusations will be arranged to surface now because one side thinks it will weaken the other. You have a wild imagination. Just a lot of assumptions here with no fact. The East and West do not hate each other and are not trying to topple the other. This is an unfortunate thing that people have differences about theology. Paul struggled with that kind of static when writing to Jewish and Gentile Christians. I have talked with many workers in the East on the subject of when will we all see things alike? My thought is that wont happen until the return of Christ. We are not without fault and blame today but at His return we will be presented to the Father Faultless & Blameless. To me that's when we will have the finished work of God.
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Post by luke2236 on May 11, 2023 9:12:29 GMT -5
The commoners think this is all about getting rid of predators or something, and maybe it started that way. But also remember that there are two warring factions in North America that hate each other going back to Jack Carroll and George Walker. I'm sure that the two current super-overseers are trying to figure out how they can each leverage the scandal to topple the other. Barry Barkley and "The East" desperately want to depose Dale Schultz and "The West" and rule all of North America. Dale Schultz and "The West" desperately want to depose Barry Barkley and "The East" and rule all of North America. You can bet they have dirt on each other and the underlings. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine that some of the accusations will be arranged to surface now because one side thinks it will weaken the other. You have a wild imagination. Just a lot of assumptions here with no fact. The East and West do not hate each other and are not trying to topple the other. This is an unfortunate thing that people have differences about theology. Paul struggled with that kind of static when writing to Jewish and Gentile Christians. I have talked with many workers in the East on the subject of when will we all see things alike? My thought is that wont happen until the return of Christ. We are not without fault and blame today but at His return we will be presented to the Father Faultless & Blameless. To me that's when we will have the finished work of God. So when do you see the head workers stepping down for covering up?
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jane
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Post by jane on May 11, 2023 9:51:31 GMT -5
The "East" has swallowed up almost all of the "West" without firing a shot. It's pretty much over. WA, AK, ID, OR and CA are all that's left of the "West"... I heard a rumor that there was another high level discussion/ruling related to divorce and remarriage in the last couple weeks. It didn't make sense to me why they were worried about that right now and it seemed like the West rules were going to win out. Is there maybe a surrender deal in the works?....the West submits to Barry and in return the East adopts the worldwide D&R ruling from the council of 1938. My understanding is that they did have a high level discussion relating to divorce and remarriage. The East is planning to move to the West coast *version of punishment* for divorce and remarriage. I think these were discussions and prayers over a long period of time and they just happen to cross over with this current mess. I don't imagine they will begin to implement anything at the moment (and i'm not sure how they would implement this at all). Hopefully they will rethink the whole idea altogether.
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Post by deepdeep on May 11, 2023 10:03:37 GMT -5
I heard a rumor that there was another high level discussion/ruling related to divorce and remarriage in the last couple weeks. It didn't make sense to me why they were worried about that right now and it seemed like the West rules were going to win out. Is there maybe a surrender deal in the works?....the West submits to Barry and in return the East adopts the worldwide D&R ruling from the council of 1938. My understanding is that they did have a high level discussion relating to divorce and remarriage. The East is planning to move to the West coast *version of punishment* for divorce and remarriage. I think these were discussions and prayers over a long period of time and they just happen to cross over with this current mess. I don't imagine they will begin to implement anything at the moment (and i'm not sure how they would implement this at all). Hopefully they will rethink the whole idea altogether. What is the "punishment" for divorcing if you are a member of the 2x2 group? And what is he regional difference?
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jane
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Post by jane on May 11, 2023 10:30:09 GMT -5
My understanding is that they did have a high level discussion relating to divorce and remarriage. The East is planning to move to the West coast *version of punishment* for divorce and remarriage. I think these were discussions and prayers over a long period of time and they just happen to cross over with this current mess. I don't imagine they will begin to implement anything at the moment (and i'm not sure how they would implement this at all). Hopefully they will rethink the whole idea altogether. What is the "punishment" for divorcing if you are a member of the 2x2 group? And what is he regional difference? If you choose to divorce and get remarried, you are not longer able to take part in meetings or take part in the emblems. You will not be asked to have meetings in your home. And in some cases, workers will not stay in your home. I have heard of some who were asked to come to NOT come meetings at all for a period of time. That is in the West Coast. East Coast however, do not have such judgement. There are elders of meetings who are divorced and remarried. Im not sure where the split is. I believe Canada follows West coast ruling on this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2023 10:34:52 GMT -5
My understanding is that they did have a high level discussion relating to divorce and remarriage. The East is planning to move to the West coast *version of punishment* for divorce and remarriage. I think these were discussions and prayers over a long period of time and they just happen to cross over with this current mess. I don't imagine they will begin to implement anything at the moment (and i'm not sure how they would implement this at all). Hopefully they will rethink the whole idea altogether. What is the "punishment" for divorcing if you are a member of the 2x2 group? And what is he regional difference? East of the Mississippi is the Eastern bailiwick West of it is the Western Bailiwick. East allows divorce and re-marriage the West don't. So, if you do in the East you can take part, the West no. Now just the states I mentioned earlier don't allow that in the West.
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Post by cornsilk on May 11, 2023 11:46:26 GMT -5
I think its more of a case of not believing the allegations. A Workers word against a complainant usually favors the Worker. Especially when an incident is years if not decades old and has no witnesses to support the charge.
Making a bad decision does not warrant stepping down unless it was done in the face of multiple complaints against a single person. In which case, a cover-up would be indicated.
I think it’s intentionally covered up based on personal experience when I reported an abuser to an overseer so we could change Wednesday night meetings from my wife’s abusers home. This was years after 4 mothers knew about what happened. The same abuser had an adult son who abused my wife and other girls when they were young. Nothing done. I told a female worker years later Nothing done I imagine I am not alone in witnessing this his behavior. ……I always said that if anyone molested my children, I would deal with it. I would not have allowed the workers the honor of ignoring me. The authorities would be notified, since it is against the law. It is so important for the victim to feel like she is heard.
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Post by neighbour on May 11, 2023 12:48:37 GMT -5
I think it’s intentionally covered up based on personal experience when I reported an abuser to an overseer so we could change Wednesday night meetings from my wife’s abusers home. This was years after 4 mothers knew about what happened. The same abuser had an adult son who abused my wife and other girls when they were young. Nothing done. I told a female worker years later Nothing done I imagine I am not alone in witnessing this his behavior. ……I always said that if anyone molested my children, I would deal with it. I would not have allowed the workers the honor of ignoring me. The authorities would be notified, since it is against the law. It is so important for the victim to feel like she is heard. "Funny" story, one of the friends who owns a convention grounds told our overseer the same thing and the overseer was horrified and said, "You wouldn't actually do that, would you?" Completely out of touch.
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