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Post by luke2236 on May 11, 2023 13:13:36 GMT -5
I think it’s intentionally covered up based on personal experience when I reported an abuser to an overseer so we could change Wednesday night meetings from my wife’s abusers home. This was years after 4 mothers knew about what happened. The same abuser had an adult son who abused my wife and other girls when they were young. Nothing done. I told a female worker years later Nothing done I imagine I am not alone in witnessing this his behavior. ……I always said that if anyone molested my children, I would deal with it. I would not have allowed the workers the honor of ignoring me. The authorities would be notified, since it is against the law. It is so important for the victim to feel like she is heard. I just remembered that same abuser, who was in the fellowship, moved to my wife’s state because he was having an affair with a high school student in the school where he taught in his home state.
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Post by snow on May 11, 2023 15:58:34 GMT -5
There are two obvious explanations for this. Those involved in the cover ups are at the top of the tree, are well on in life and face a bleak future without their control of their livelihood, etc. It's only natural. The second explanation is 'if someone is going to step down, then that requires someone to step up?' If you were a younger worker or one down the pecking order, would you be willing to take the top job at this particular time? I'm sure most are considering what they are going to do next if things go pear shaped? They will be looking for a safety net, not more exposure and attempting to sort out problems caused by their predecessors. Ray H sent word on the MN situation (which by MN law is illegal and a felony) that the son of the lover lied, then days later the the former MN stepped down. Ray is supposed to be the new top guy. I find this very odd. Kind of hard to think anyone would believe him since there was a video that the son found on the mom's computer.
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Post by christiansburg on May 11, 2023 16:09:47 GMT -5
You have a wild imagination. Just a lot of assumptions here with no fact. The East and West do not hate each other and are not trying to topple the other. This is an unfortunate thing that people have differences about theology. Paul struggled with that kind of static when writing to Jewish and Gentile Christians. I have talked with many workers in the East on the subject of when will we all see things alike? My thought is that wont happen until the return of Christ. We are not without fault and blame today but at His return we will be presented to the Father Faultless & Blameless. To me that's when we will have the finished work of God. So when do you see the head workers stepping down for covering up? So when do you present the facts on that?
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Post by luke2236 on May 11, 2023 16:56:00 GMT -5
So when do you see the head workers stepping down for covering up? So when do you present the facts on that? If they covered up they should step down. I don’t need to provide any facts. They are running a man made church if you caused more victims to be abused by not doing anything you need to be gone. If you have theology that causes people to feel like they need to keep silent then you should be gone. If you lead a system of people who cover up for pedophiles and rapers you should be gone. This is worse than Enron, and those people are gone.
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Post by fixit on May 11, 2023 18:07:17 GMT -5
The East and West do not hate each other and are not trying to topple the other. This is an unfortunate thing that people have differences about theology. Paul struggled with that kind of static when writing to Jewish and Gentile Christians. I have talked with many workers in the East on the subject of when will we all see things alike? My thought is that wont happen until the return of Christ. We are not without fault and blame today but at His return we will be presented to the Father Faultless & Blameless. To me that's when we will have the finished work of God. What's the problem apart from divorce and remarriage policy? That could change quite quickly.
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Post by cornsilk on May 11, 2023 18:37:17 GMT -5
……I always said that if anyone molested my children, I would deal with it. I would not have allowed the workers the honor of ignoring me. The authorities would be notified, since it is against the law. It is so important for the victim to feel like she is heard. "Funny" story, one of the friends who owns a convention grounds told our overseer the same thing and the overseer was horrified and said, "You wouldn't actually do that, would you?" Completely out of touch. Crazy. I wasn’t b and r in the church, and I know I made mistakes with my kids, but absolute control by outside influences was never one of them.
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Post by Prayers on May 11, 2023 20:48:25 GMT -5
If you choose to divorce and get remarried, you are not longer able to take part in meetings or take part in the emblems. You will not be asked to have meetings in your home. And in some cases, workers will not stay in your home. I have heard of some who were asked to come to NOT come meetings at all for a period of time. That is in the West Coast. East Coast however, do not have such judgement. There are elders of meetings who are divorced and remarried. Im not sure where the split is. I believe Canada follows West coast ruling on this. Eastern Ontario and Atlantic Canada follow the Eastern rules. What matters is it is all different regionally and who the overseer is, it should be the same wherever you are, though, as far as I understand. That calls for all kinds of confusions and conflicts. I've even seen an elder who divorced just because there is fellowship meeting at her mom's. Chaos itself.
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Post by neighbour on May 11, 2023 20:51:11 GMT -5
I've even seen an elder who divorced just because there is fellowship meeting at her mom's. Chaos itself. I'm sorry, I don't quite follow what you are saying here.
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Post by Prayers on May 11, 2023 21:17:36 GMT -5
I've even seen an elder who divorced just because there is fellowship meeting at her mom's. Chaos itself. I'm sorry, I don't quite follow what you are saying here. Sorry..... There is a man who divorced but became an elder in a fellowship meeing. And the meeting is at his mom's
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Post by luke2236 on May 11, 2023 21:29:07 GMT -5
I'm sorry, I don't quite follow what you are saying here. Sorry..... There is a man who divorced but became an elder in a fellowship meeing. And the meeting is at his mom's Are you trying to say things have changed for the better?
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Post by Pragmatic on May 11, 2023 21:41:57 GMT -5
What would happen if he remarried though?
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Post by Prayers on May 11, 2023 23:23:35 GMT -5
Sorry..... There is a man who divorced but became an elder in a fellowship meeing. And the meeting is at his mom's Are you trying to say things have changed for the better? Change for the better.....? Does the bible say that a divorced man can be an elder in any meetings?
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Post by BobWilliston on May 12, 2023 0:07:06 GMT -5
Are you trying to say things have changed for the better? Change for the better.....? Does the bible say that a divorced man can be an elder in any meetings? The Bible wouldn't say that. The Bible would only say if he couldn't. What the law and the Bible are silent on, there is no regulation against.
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Post by jonathan on May 12, 2023 0:33:26 GMT -5
What hypocrosy of workers who abuse children, women and fellow workers (sexually, emotionally and bullying) and those who covered it up stayed in the work, but divorced and remarried people are summarily acted against!
Speaking up for abusers, saying oh God has forgiven them and so we should... But they wouldn't apply this mercy to divorced and remarried persons?
There is no law, at least in the Western world, prohibiting divorce and remarriage. But even Third World countries have legislation in one or other form against abuse of at least children.
Someone got something wrong somewhere!
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Post by Ross.Bowden on May 12, 2023 0:58:48 GMT -5
Those who have covered up SA/CSA have not stepped down - but they must.
A significant number of workers need to resign immediately over these cover-ups - if they don't there will be a significant and sustained effort from many around the world to place pressure on them to do so.
My advice to them would be resign before details are made public.
Some comments on some who have covered up SA/CSA in Australia - and this is just the tip of the iceberg:
- Allan Kitto (when a senior worker in New South Wales) said to a young girl (when she turned 18) who had been sexually abused by her father and another professing guy from age 4, that if she went to the police he would excommunicate her. When she did and both men were charged, he told his younger worker companion that they had to go to the Court House where the 2 men were appearing to support the offenders. The younger worker nobly refused to do so.
- When this account was being produced as part of the 60 Minutes program, 60M wrote to Allan Kitto (now the Overseer of NSW) and asked him to verify. Whilst Allan did not deny how he had treated the girl, he wrote that the matter had already been taken care of by the Police, or was the subject of Court proceedings, before he knew about her situation. That was simply not true, and those who knew it was a lie, passed the relevant information to senior workers.
- Post the 60M program, nothing was done about Allan Kitto until he stated from the convention platform around 6 months later that he had nothing to worry about in relation to the program and offered no remorse or care from victims. Ultimately, this was a bridge too far and he was sacked as Overseer of NSW and then left the work a few months later. It took at lot of pressure to get to this point.
- His predecessor as Overseer of NSW covered up child sexual abuse perpetrated by one of his fellow workers and sought to hide it by moving the perpetrator overseas.
- His predecessor as Overseer of NSW covered up the actions of at least two male workers who had engaged in child sexual abuse.
There is no accountability and no consequences.
In the last two weeks, Kingsley Stone was removed from the US convention circuit and asked to return immediately to South Africa - it has been well documented why. The South African Overseer have accepted him back with open arms and the message that those in the USA over-reacted.
Not a lot is changing.
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Post by Prayers on May 12, 2023 1:15:52 GMT -5
Change for the better.....? Does the bible say that a divorced man can be an elder in any meetings? The Bible wouldn't say that. The Bible would only say if he couldn't. What the law and the Bible are silent on, there is no regulation against. But then, there are many regulations as if they are from the Bible which pinned on our brain. I want get rid of them, feeling stucked.
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Post by jonathan on May 12, 2023 2:44:04 GMT -5
That they're not owning up to what they've done, apologise and step away from the work is a reflection of their character abd conscience. Also indicative of lack of integrity.
Are they waiting to see if perhaps the falling axe will miss them?
It boggles me that they can still continue. Where is the respect for truth?
The longer they delay to own up, the more angry people will be.
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Post by fixit on May 12, 2023 3:09:40 GMT -5
It's an interesting study to search for "we have sinned" in the bible.
Has it ever been chosen for a Wednesday night study?
From thousands of hours of listening to workers I'm trying to recall if I've ever having heard one of them confessing sins.
Many times I've heard about how great we are though.
James 5:16 Confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and produces wonderful results.
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Post by jonathan on May 12, 2023 6:58:55 GMT -5
1 Samuel 26:21 Then said Saul, I have sinned: return, my son David: for I will no more do thee harm, because my soul was precious in thine eyes this day: behold, I have played the fool, and have erred exceedingly.
Seems he realized this only after God had taken His Spirit from him.
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Post by jonathan on May 12, 2023 7:01:22 GMT -5
Covering up a sin like CSA is akin to sinning willfully. It's a conscious decision.
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Post by cornsilk on May 12, 2023 7:34:08 GMT -5
Covering up a sin like CSA is akin to sinning willfully. It's a conscious decision. But it’s like admitting that “the way” isn’t perfect. Just ignore it—and most victims of abuse are afraid to tell anyway…it’s all a bunch of ugly secrets.
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Post by openingact34 on May 12, 2023 9:02:57 GMT -5
Covering up a sin like CSA is akin to sinning willfully. It's a conscious decision. Encountering a case of CSA/SA in the Truth would be extremely upsetting for the overseers. I am 1000% sure that the very first thing they would do is pray about it. They would want a spirit led decision and heavenly wisdom, not their own thoughts. The facts are clear. Time and time again, the men who submitted humbly in prayer were led to cover it up. Only after secular law enforcement got involved did it start getting reported. Crime? Yes Sin? Doesn't seem so.
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Post by jonathan on May 12, 2023 9:40:45 GMT -5
What's your take on the difference in the way the Holy Spirit led the oversight in California to act in a way contrary to the way the oversight in South Africa received Kingsley Stone, also supposedly praying about the same matter and also led by the same Spirit?
If the Spirt brings something to light, and I seek to go against the Spirit by covering it up, I am guilty of sin.
There are many other examples too.
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Post by verna on May 12, 2023 9:56:37 GMT -5
What's your take on the difference in the way the Holy Spirit led the oversight in California to act in a way contrary to the way the oversight in South Africa received Kingsley Stone, also supposedly praying about the same matter and also led by the same Spirit? If the Spirt brings something to light, and I seek to go against the Spirit by covering it up, I am guilty of sin. There are many other examples too. To me it is clear evidence that there is no such thing as a Holy Spirit.
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Post by jonathan on May 12, 2023 10:05:50 GMT -5
There simply have been way too many incidents abd events in my life that proved to me the existence and work of the Holy Spirit. I'd be a fool to put it all down to coincidence.
If two people pray with the same earnestly about the same problem, and they both claim to have received an answer from God, through the Spirit, and their answers are contradictory to each other, at least one side has got a problem.
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
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Post by luke2236 on May 12, 2023 10:14:59 GMT -5
Are you trying to say things have changed for the better? Change for the better.....? Does the bible say that a divorced man can be an elder in any meetings? I’m just trying to figure out what your point is. The Bible says not to braid hair. Does his mom braid her hair?
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Post by verna on May 12, 2023 12:59:50 GMT -5
There simply have been way too many incidents abd events in my life that proved to me the existence and work of the Holy Spirit. I'd be a fool to put it all down to coincidence. If two people pray with the same earnestly about the same problem, and they both claim to have received an answer from God, through the Spirit, and their answers are contradictory to each other, at least one side has got a problem. James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. So how do you explain the contradictions?
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Post by fixit on May 12, 2023 13:49:17 GMT -5
Covering up a sin like CSA is akin to sinning willfully. It's a conscious decision. "The girls get over it, and we need workers so bad" was the reasoning for decades if not a whole century. The secular world has progressed faster than the religious world on CSA.
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