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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 18, 2023 19:09:03 GMT -5
So a council of friends voted in by friends. Wouldn't that just lead to basically more of the same issues? There's any number of churches that have that as their recipe and they have CSA/SA / transparency / accountability issues too. Think about it. Who would vote? Who would participate? Many wouldn't serve as between their children's activities, work responsibilities, businesses, taking care of elderly family members etc. they just don't have the time. A common complaint of friends I have outside the fellowship is how burdensome all these church sub committees are. What this fellowship needs are honest, humble, Spirit led leaders with the focus on Christ. No council is going to bring that about. Makes me appreciate even more the deacons, elders, workers and overseers that execute their responsibilities in a Godly manner. The problem is the deacons, elders, workers and overseers who DO NOT execute their responsibilities in a Godly manner, and there are currently no checks and balances in place for those, particularly in the higher echelons of the hierarchy. I'm not a big fan of committees in general, but I think the people suggesting this just can't think of any other option to curb the unscrupulous who firmly have their hands on the reins of power.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2023 19:14:50 GMT -5
So a council of friends voted in by friends. Wouldn't that just lead to basically more of the same issues? There's any number of churches that have that as their recipe and they have CSA/SA / transparency / accountability issues too. Think about it. Who would vote? Who would participate? Many wouldn't serve as between their children's activities, work responsibilities, businesses, taking care of elderly family members etc. they just don't have the time. A common complaint of friends I have outside the fellowship is how burdensome all these church sub committees are. What this fellowship needs are honest, humble, Spirit led leaders with the focus on Christ. No council is going to bring that about. Makes me appreciate even more the deacons, elders, workers and overseers that execute their responsibilities in a Godly manner. The problem is the deacons, elders, workers and overseers who DO NOT execute their responsibilities in a Godly manner, and there are currently no checks and balances in place for those, particularly in the higher echelons of the hierarchy. I'm not a big fan of committees in general, but I think the people suggesting this just can't think of any other option to curb the unscrupulous who firmly have their hands on the reins of power. I'm not sure it is the structure per se, it's the people in the structure...world class morons and dxxxs...
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Post by getreal on Jul 18, 2023 20:40:19 GMT -5
So a council of friends voted in by friends. Wouldn't that just lead to basically more of the same issues? There's any number of churches that have that as their recipe and they have CSA/SA / transparency / accountability issues too. Think about it. Who would vote? Who would participate? Many wouldn't serve as between their children's activities, work responsibilities, businesses, taking care of elderly family members etc. they just don't have the time. A common complaint of friends I have outside the fellowship is how burdensome all these church sub committees are. What this fellowship needs are honest, humble, Spirit led leaders with the focus on Christ. No council is going to bring that about. Makes me appreciate even more the deacons, elders, workers and overseers that execute their responsibilities in a Godly manner. Well sounds like you are betwixt and between! Nothing is perfect, but I sense there is agreement that a ministry without true oversight, oversight with authority, is not working. Other than a small group of friends somehow approved by the congregation and not just appointed by workers who could pick and choose as they do now, is the only answer. As far as overwork, it’s not like you are running a church building with all that entails with building and grounds and charities and youth groups and music programs. It would be a matter of overseeing donations and allocating that money for renting halls and the needs of the local workers so the workers would no longer operate in secret re the money. A paper trail. Workers could consult re meeting changes and they could work together re any issues brought up by the friends. It will take some time to figure out the details no doubt as you are starting from scratch
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Post by snow on Jul 19, 2023 12:24:02 GMT -5
So a council of friends voted in by friends. Wouldn't that just lead to basically more of the same issues? There's any number of churches that have that as their recipe and they have CSA/SA / transparency / accountability issues too. Think about it. Who would vote? Who would participate? Many wouldn't serve as between their children's activities, work responsibilities, businesses, taking care of elderly family members etc. they just don't have the time. A common complaint of friends I have outside the fellowship is how burdensome all these church sub committees are. What this fellowship needs are honest, humble, Spirit led leaders with the focus on Christ. No council is going to bring that about. Makes me appreciate even more the deacons, elders, workers and overseers that execute their responsibilities in a Godly manner. Trouble is it's not working. That's why there need to be a 3rd party council at the moment. But the workers are adamant that they don't want anyone from the 'outside' looking into the now in the thousands of survivors and over 500 abusers this church has produced. Many of the overseers aren't willing to take a good look at how to change things. Suggestions from the friends that are concerned are being dismissed as 'being the wrong spirit'. They do not want their authority over the friends to be diminished. As we've seen, that has not worked well in the past.
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Post by getreal on Jul 19, 2023 15:39:28 GMT -5
My suggestions, for what they are worth, are more for when normal operating procedures can take over, after, if there is an after, the group is purged. But to be honest, I don’t see the f and w folks climbing out of this to some better working plateau. I don’t think agreement is likely. I see divisions between traditionalist hold outs no matter what and then a variety of revisionist groups. Sadly I keep reading that for the most part conventions happened as usual and people just want to turn off the lights and keep on eating their spoiled nuts. If and when convictions happen, particularly at the top that would shake the ground for a bit but I expect most would feel well it’s cleaned up and we can just carry on. Of course, more problems will happen and it is how those down the road problems are handled that will shake some out of complacency? Maybe? I notice how the friends in canada are standing pretty loyal. They have a history of staunch generational support and respect for authority, a Canadian thing, that is a bit different from the US. They will be the last to break away, if a large scale break away ever happens. Again to be honest, I doubt it. But they will dwindle ever more. Few new converts. Fewer children staying.
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Post by ForeverFree on Jul 19, 2023 21:48:23 GMT -5
My suggestions, for what they are worth, are more for when normal operating procedures can take over, after, if there is an after, the group is purged. But to be honest, I don’t see the f and w folks climbing out of this to some better working plateau. I don’t think agreement is likely. I see divisions between traditionalist hold outs no matter what and then a variety of revisionist groups. Sadly I keep reading that for the most part conventions happened as usual and people just want to turn off the lights and keep on eating their spoiled nuts. If and when convictions happen, particularly at the top that would shake the ground for a bit but I expect most would feel well it’s cleaned up and we can just carry on. Of course, more problems will happen and it is how those down the road problems are handled that will shake some out of complacency? Maybe? I notice how the friends in canada are standing pretty loyal. They have a history of staunch generational support and respect for authority, a Canadian thing, that is a bit different from the US. They will be the last to break away, if a large scale break away ever happens. Again to be honest, I doubt it. But they will dwindle ever more. Few new converts. Fewer children staying. But they will dwindle ever more. Few new converts. Fewer children staying. There has been a decline over the last 30 years, but with the actions of certain workers and the inactions of the overseers, I can only imagine that the decline will be increasing at a much higher pace in the near future.
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Post by bigtrax on Jul 20, 2023 9:25:03 GMT -5
My suggestions, for what they are worth, are more for when normal operating procedures can take over, after, if there is an after, the group is purged. But to be honest, I don’t see the f and w folks climbing out of this to some better working plateau. I don’t think agreement is likely. I see divisions between traditionalist hold outs no matter what and then a variety of revisionist groups. Sadly I keep reading that for the most part conventions happened as usual and people just want to turn off the lights and keep on eating their spoiled nuts. If and when convictions happen, particularly at the top that would shake the ground for a bit but I expect most would feel well it’s cleaned up and we can just carry on. Of course, more problems will happen and it is how those down the road problems are handled that will shake some out of complacency? Maybe? I notice how the friends in canada are standing pretty loyal. They have a history of staunch generational support and respect for authority, a Canadian thing, that is a bit different from the US. They will be the last to break away, if a large scale break away ever happens. Again to be honest, I doubt it. But they will dwindle ever more. Few new converts. Fewer children staying. But they will dwindle ever more. Few new converts. Fewer children staying. There has been a decline over the last 30 years, but with the actions of certain workers and the inactions of the overseers, I can only imagine that the decline will be increasing at a much higher pace in the near future. The decline over the last 30 years isn't just unique to this fellowship but in denominations across the country. The decline is more noticeable amongst the friends though.
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Post by christiansburg on Jul 20, 2023 10:31:55 GMT -5
My suggestions, for what they are worth, are more for when normal operating procedures can take over, after, if there is an after, the group is purged. But to be honest, I don’t see the f and w folks climbing out of this to some better working plateau. I don’t think agreement is likely. I see divisions between traditionalist hold outs no matter what and then a variety of revisionist groups. Sadly I keep reading that for the most part conventions happened as usual and people just want to turn off the lights and keep on eating their spoiled nuts. If and when convictions happen, particularly at the top that would shake the ground for a bit but I expect most would feel well it’s cleaned up and we can just carry on. Of course, more problems will happen and it is how those down the road problems are handled that will shake some out of complacency? Maybe? I notice how the friends in canada are standing pretty loyal. They have a history of staunch generational support and respect for authority, a Canadian thing, that is a bit different from the US. They will be the last to break away, if a large scale break away ever happens. Again to be honest, I doubt it. But they will dwindle ever more. Few new converts. Fewer children staying. The youth of this generation is being lost in large numbers. Too many unnecessary rules. A wise sister once said: We should stay to preaching the gospel and let people do what they will with it.
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Post by deadawake on Jul 22, 2023 21:37:57 GMT -5
The actual fact is that being tempted as a worker by natural human impulses like the desires for consensual intimacy and companionship, for becoming parents and building a family' for having their own home and space, for material possessions and so on does not cause a person to become a sexual predator. Sexual preditors are born from mental illness. If they were not born that way then they a created through maladaption to life's experiences and traumas in a way that distorts their thinking in pervers ways. They were predators before they went in the work whether they acted on their urges or not prior to going in the work. You quote actual facts? Just curious. Do you have expertise in this area or are you reporting from what you have read from experts? I guess you are opening up the whole nurture/nature debate? From my reading and learning psychopathy is still in large part a mystery in terms of the cause. The lack of empathy etc. Experiences can alter our brains, which can lead to behaviors. It seems very multi factorial. But sure some predators are maybe born, but do all act on these impulses or do some circumstances provide enough stress and also opportunity that they become active. I wonder how many of these mainly male workers could have lived a normal life if they hadn’t gone into the extreme circumstances of the work. How do you unravel all the causes and effects and make definitive statements about them? I just know from my years in the work I saw a lot of signs and symptoms of mental illness amongst the workers, friends too, but a lot of workers. We called it accentricities, but in hind sight it was maladaptive behavior. Also lots of medical issues, depression, inability to sleep, stress, moodiness, odd habits, taken together paints a picture. I am a psychiatric nurse.
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Post by getreal on Jul 22, 2023 21:54:04 GMT -5
You quote actual facts? Just curious. Do you have expertise in this area or are you reporting from what you have read from experts? I guess you are opening up the whole nurture/nature debate? From my reading and learning psychopathy is still in large part a mystery in terms of the cause. The lack of empathy etc. Experiences can alter our brains, which can lead to behaviors. It seems very multi factorial. But sure some predators are maybe born, but do all act on these impulses or do some circumstances provide enough stress and also opportunity that they become active. I wonder how many of these mainly male workers could have lived a normal life if they hadn’t gone into the extreme circumstances of the work. How do you unravel all the causes and effects and make definitive statements about them? I just know from my years in the work I saw a lot of signs and symptoms of mental illness amongst the workers, friends too, but a lot of workers. We called it accentricities, but in hind sight it was maladaptive behavior. Also lots of medical issues, depression, inability to sleep, stress, moodiness, odd habits, taken together paints a picture. I am a psychiatric nurse. Doesn’t seem like we are in a disagreement. They are either born and wired or their behavior is due to maladaptive responses to experiences and who knows how much of one or the other or interwoven in ways that we can’t know. Thanks for responding? Took one year of psych nursing once upon a time.
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Post by deadawake on Jul 22, 2023 22:13:36 GMT -5
I am a psychiatric nurse. Doesn’t seem like we are in a disagreement. They are either born and wired or their behavior is due to maladaptive responses to experiences and who knows how much of one or the other or interwoven in ways that we can’t know. Thanks for responding? Took one year of psych nursing once upon a time. [/quote I essentially agree but I just wanted to clarify as the statement i responded to initially portrayed the idea that its only a matter of time before all workers go dark...because of the temptations they face. I believe very much in personal integrity and the Grace of God as means to resist temptations. I was a worker for a time and while I, of course had temptations and struggles and "wished" I hadn't be called to the work, I also had a lot of joy. Joy discussing edifying things with friends and fellow workers. Witnessing the Grace and Wisdom of God in other's experiences and the reward that comes from living for others. Yes there were temptations but faltering in the temptations that lead to consensual acts is completely different than the urges of a pedophile or a sexual predator... I just felt the original statement was stating that the lifestyle of the workers is the cause of pedophilia or preying on the powerlessness. I don't know if I'm explaining myself well and I am not a debator. I just know that while there are many changes to be made there are also many who have truly felt the calling of God who, while not perfect, live in integrity and never give in to those desires despite the temptations. (This does not deny that there are too many who are sick or those that entered with impure hearts...)
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Post by getreal on Jul 22, 2023 22:28:37 GMT -5
Of course not all are destined to commit felonies. But, you create the ‘right’ environment and otherwise ok people will be so stressed out of their normal minds they may, may act out those parts of themselves that may have lied dormant forever. There is lots of history to support this. People did things in nazi germany they would never have done accept for the circumstances that allowed and indeed enabled it to happen. We must accept responsibility for supporting a system that enabled potential predators and prepared perfect victims.
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Post by Dan on Jul 22, 2023 23:24:02 GMT -5
Of course not all are destined to commit felonies. But, you create the ‘right’ environment and otherwise ok people will be so stressed out of their normal minds they may, may act out those parts of themselves that may have lied dormant forever. There is lots of history to support this. People did things in nazi germany they would never have done accept for the circumstances that allowed and indeed enabled it to happen. We must accept responsibility for supporting a system that enabled potential predators and prepared perfect victims.
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). I don't think a bible believing church is an environment conducive to pedophilia. No church promotes CSA or SA, in fact they deplore it. Those who engage in criminal sexual abuse aren't predators produced by a ministry. The excuse that people who would have otherwise had normal minds, but were turned into perverts due to stressful circumstances is semi-laughable.
One could argue that the requirement of celibacy might entice more acts of fornication, and that covering-up SA promotes its redundancy, but I don't think that any perverted sexual abuse is systematically induced, it emanates in the heart of an individuals own depraved mind.. I'd agree that victims are often brainwashed. Parents who turn the other cheek in regards to CSA are enablers and ought to be prosecuted for child neglect/endangerment.
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Post by getreal on Jul 23, 2023 0:03:12 GMT -5
Of course not all are destined to commit felonies. But, you create the ‘right’ environment and otherwise ok people will be so stressed out of their normal minds they may, may act out those parts of themselves that may have lied dormant forever. There is lots of history to support this. People did things in nazi germany they would never have done accept for the circumstances that allowed and indeed enabled it to happen. We must accept responsibility for supporting a system that enabled potential predators and prepared perfect victims.
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). I don't think a bible believing church is an environment conducive to pedophilia. No church promotes CSA or SA, in fact they deplore it. Those who engage in criminal sexual abuse aren't predators produced by a ministry. The excuse that people who would have otherwise had normal minds, but were turned into perverts due to stressful circumstances is semi-laughable.
One could argue that the requirement of celibacy might entice more acts of fornication, and that covering-up SA promotes its redundancy, but I don't think that any perverted sexual abuse is systematically induced, it emanates in the heart of an individuals own depraved mind.. I'd agree that victims are often brainwashed. Parents who turn the other cheek in regards to CSA are enablers and ought to be prosecuted for child neglect/endangerment.
What is your explanation?
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Post by Dan on Jul 23, 2023 1:10:34 GMT -5
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). I don't think a bible believing church is an environment conducive to pedophilia. No church promotes CSA or SA, in fact they deplore it. Those who engage in criminal sexual abuse aren't predators produced by a ministry. The excuse that people who would have otherwise had normal minds, but were turned into perverts due to stressful circumstances is semi-laughable.
One could argue that the requirement of celibacy might entice more acts of fornication, and that covering-up SA promotes its redundancy, but I don't think that any perverted sexual abuse is systematically induced, it emanates in the heart of an individuals own depraved mind.. I'd agree that victims are often brainwashed. Parents who turn the other cheek in regards to CSA are enablers and ought to be prosecuted for child neglect/endangerment.
What is your explanation?
Stamping an explanation for CSA would seem to be an attempt to turn the predator into a victim of their environment. I don't pretend to comprehend the sick mind of anyone who would engage in that deplorable behavior, I don't even want to understand it. I can understand a persons desire for intimacy after being solo for years, but with a child? And consider that the married Elder (TP San Jose, Ecuador) had raped children, so the behavior is not limited to preachers who've refrained from physical intimacy until they've reached some type of psychological breaking point that sent them over the edge. And considering the age of some of the predators, raging hormones can't be the excuse either.
I have no idea what would cause an unnatural attraction to a child, I reckon you'd need to psychoanalyze a person who's drawn to children, but I doubt they'd have an explanation for it? Determining a cause just seems tantamount to looking for a rational reason or excuse where none exist. They say that rape isn't as much about sexual gratification, but is about power and control via violence, but why anyone would get a thrill out of molesting an innocent child is beyond my comprehension. It was going on even in biblical times, when men were men and sheep were nervous! Its unexplained depravity and unnatural lust, "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts...God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" (Romans 1: 24&28).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2023 4:00:36 GMT -5
What is your explanation?
Stamping an explanation for CSA would seem to be an attempt to turn the predator into a victim of their environment. I don't pretend to comprehend the sick mind of anyone who would engage in that deplorable behavior, I don't even want to understand it. I can understand a persons desire for intimacy after being solo for years, but with a child? And consider that the married Elder (TP San Jose, Ecuador) had raped children, so the behavior is not limited to preachers who've refrained from physical intimacy until they've reached some type of psychological breaking point that sent them over the edge. And considering the age of some of the predators, raging hormones can't be the excuse either.
I have no idea what would cause an unnatural attraction to a child, I reckon you'd need to psychoanalyze a person who's drawn to children, but I doubt they'd have an explanation for it? Determining a cause just seems tantamount to looking for a rational reason or excuse where none exist. They say that rape isn't as much about sexual gratification, but is about power and control via violence, but why anyone would get a thrill out of molesting an innocent child is beyond my comprehension. It was going on even in biblical times, when men were men and sheep were nervous! Its unexplained depravity and unnatural lust, "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts...God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" (Romans 1: 24&28).
You are not alone brother, even the experts haven't figured it out to any degree. Defective or being assaulted themselves or a combo of both seem to be the only simplistic comments on why it happens for the moment.
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Post by themaninthemirror on Jul 25, 2023 6:09:50 GMT -5
But they will dwindle ever more. Few new converts. Fewer children staying. There has been a decline over the last 30 years, but with the actions of certain workers and the inactions of the overseers, I can only imagine that the decline will be increasing at a much higher pace in the near future. The decline over the last 30 years isn't just unique to this fellowship but in denominations across the country. The decline is more noticeable amongst the friends though. I am not sure I agree with this. In the UK church attendance has fallen almost 60% since 1980, 70% for the catholics (despite a higher population now). If you look at the friends and workers I think it is largely in line with this. Same with the demographics of the church, if you look at the Christian faith overall then it is in line with most other denominations in terms of age. From 2008 to 2020 (12 years) the Catholic church lost almost 20% of members, Methodists 15%...
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Post by getreal on Jul 25, 2023 13:45:26 GMT -5
The decline over the last 30 years isn't just unique to this fellowship but in denominations across the country. The decline is more noticeable amongst the friends though. I am not sure I agree with this. In the UK church attendance has fallen almost 60% since 1980, 70% for the catholics (despite a higher population now). If you look at the friends and workers I think it is largely in line with this. Same with the demographics of the church, if you look at the Christian faith overall then it is in line with most other denominations in terms of age. From 2008 to 2020 (12 years) the Catholic church lost almost 20% of members, Methodists 15%... This kind of argument amuses me. I don’t know if you are inside or out. It seems like the devoted either make the case they are better than all other ways, or when convenient say well, we are certainly no worse. In fact we are just like them. See, we are losing members too. Just like the worldly churches. But here is the thing, if it is the best way why wouldn’t it be bucking the trends, gaining members from the corrupt churches. Well, the opposite meanwhile is true. Losing members. No outside interest because people can read. Children not professing. It would be interesting to know what happened in tested meetings this time around. Remember, it is early days. Yes, this may all fizzle and life limps on, or a fire takes hold. Where will this be a year from now?
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Post by themaninthemirror on Jul 25, 2023 14:15:18 GMT -5
I am not sure I agree with this. In the UK church attendance has fallen almost 60% since 1980, 70% for the catholics (despite a higher population now). If you look at the friends and workers I think it is largely in line with this. Same with the demographics of the church, if you look at the Christian faith overall then it is in line with most other denominations in terms of age. From 2008 to 2020 (12 years) the Catholic church lost almost 20% of members, Methodists 15%... This kind of argument amuses me. I don’t know if you are inside or out. It seems like the devoted either make the case they are better than all other ways, or when convenient say well, we are certainly no worse. In fact we are just like them. See, we are losing members too. Just like the worldly churches. But here is the thing, if it is the best way why wouldn’t it be bucking the trends, gaining members from the corrupt churches. Well, the opposite meanwhile is true. Losing members. No outside interest because people can read. Children not professing. It would be interesting to know what happened in tested meetings this time around. Remember, it is early days. Yes, this may all fizzle and life limps on, or a fire takes hold. Where will this be a year from now? It isn't really an argument, its simple fact. The Christian faith in general isn't so popular, therefore, less people in general are interested in the Christian faith. Its easier to make converts when everyone is interested, your pool of potential converts is greater. When your pool of young people are 25% bisexual, 10% non-binary and 60% atheist - it is particularly difficult to convert them to your way of thinking....
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Post by snow on Jul 25, 2023 14:24:10 GMT -5
This kind of argument amuses me. I don’t know if you are inside or out. It seems like the devoted either make the case they are better than all other ways, or when convenient say well, we are certainly no worse. In fact we are just like them. See, we are losing members too. Just like the worldly churches. But here is the thing, if it is the best way why wouldn’t it be bucking the trends, gaining members from the corrupt churches. Well, the opposite meanwhile is true. Losing members. No outside interest because people can read. Children not professing. It would be interesting to know what happened in tested meetings this time around. Remember, it is early days. Yes, this may all fizzle and life limps on, or a fire takes hold. Where will this be a year from now? It isn't really an argument, its simple fact. The Christian faith in general isn't so popular, therefore, less people in general are interested in the Christian faith. Its easier to make converts when everyone is interested, your pool of potential converts is greater. When your pool of young people are 25% bisexual, 10% non-binary and 60% atheist - it is particularly difficult to convert them to your way of thinking.... And, imo, no one should be trying. If current Christians want to be Christian that's alright for them. But leave the rest of the world alone and let them be who they are. I think the very act of trying to 'convert' people these days turns a majority off. When religious beliefs contradict scientific findings you are going to see more and more young people reject the things the bible says they have to believe to be Christians. Talking animals, virgins giving birth, dying on the cross and then rising up 3 days later, parting sea waters, etc. just doesn't appeal to people. And fewer young people want to manipulated by fear mongering which is what happens when they are threatened with hell if they don't get baptized or follow all the religions rules, whatever that denomination adheres to.
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Post by Dan on Jul 25, 2023 14:39:28 GMT -5
I am not sure I agree with this. In the UK church attendance has fallen almost 60% since 1980, 70% for the catholics (despite a higher population now). If you look at the friends and workers I think it is largely in line with this. Same with the demographics of the church, if you look at the Christian faith overall then it is in line with most other denominations in terms of age. From 2008 to 2020 (12 years) the Catholic church lost almost 20% of members, Methodists 15%... This kind of argument amuses me. I don’t know if you are inside or out. It seems like the devoted either make the case they are better than all other ways, or when convenient say well, we are certainly no worse. In fact we are just like them. See, we are losing members too. Just like the worldly churches. But here is the thing, if it is the best way why wouldn’t it be bucking the trends, gaining members from the corrupt churches. Well, the opposite meanwhile is true. Losing members. No outside interest because people can read. Children not professing. It would be interesting to know what happened in tested meetings this time around. Remember, it is early days. Yes, this may all fizzle and life limps on, or a fire takes hold. Where will this be a year from now?
I believe it will continue because people believe its the correct Way & ministry. They won't unplug from the Matrix because of a few hiccups, despite being let down by a few people they trusted. People who leave will be characterized as weak links who couldn't keep the faith, after-all its the fulfillment of prophecy, "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" (2 Thessalonians 2:3).
I do see some easing of the rules and restrictions though, the Christian type of Sharia Law applied to the Friends will be centered less on superficial things. Having the right look and hiding from all worldly pleasures will hopefully take a backseat to not screwing your neighbors wife or molesting children. I suspect that not having a TV, radio, or the correct attire may even become less important than keeping the 7th commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14). The way of life that so many have come accustomed to and comfortable with is in desperate need of a tune-up.
Not just the Workers, but the Friends too. They are psychologically naive, its a wonder they all haven't been victimized! Morals have been misplaced in favor of maintaining the status quo.. Jesus came to put his commandments in our hearts, but that's been put on the back-burner, "Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write...Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works" (Revelation 2: 4&5).
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Post by Admin on Jul 26, 2023 7:29:18 GMT -5
Off-topic posts moved to new thread 'Gender Issues'.
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Post by mountain on Jul 30, 2023 5:26:01 GMT -5
Stamping an explanation for CSA would seem to be an attempt to turn the predator into a victim of their environment. I don't pretend to comprehend the sick mind of anyone who would engage in that deplorable behavior, I don't even want to understand it. I can understand a persons desire for intimacy after being solo for years, but with a child? And consider that the married Elder (TP San Jose, Ecuador) had raped children, so the behavior is not limited to preachers who've refrained from physical intimacy until they've reached some type of psychological breaking point that sent them over the edge. And considering the age of some of the predators, raging hormones can't be the excuse either. I have no idea what would cause an unnatural attraction to a child, I reckon you'd need to psychoanalyze a person who's drawn to children, but I doubt they'd have an explanation for it? Determining a cause just seems tantamount to looking for a rational reason or excuse where none exist. They say that rape isn't as much about sexual gratification, but is about power and control via violence, but why anyone would get a thrill out of molesting an innocent child is beyond my comprehension. It was going on even in biblical times, when men were men and sheep were nervous! Its unexplained depravity and unnatural lust, "Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts...God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient" (Romans 1: 24&28).
You are not alone brother, even the experts haven't figured it out to any degree. Defective or being assaulted themselves or a combo of both seem to be the only simplistic comments on why it happens for the moment. Basically the answer is very simple. Has Wally not been trying to drive this simple message into us, but has lacked the success that Jesus had in driving out the moneylenders from the Temple with a whip? Make ourselves moneylenders and hearken to Wally! As I said the answer is simple, very simple, but the further away we get from God the more complex and scientific explanations we demand for things, blinding ourselves to what Wally glaringly tells us. Now long retired, I have over 30 years experience in dealing with crimes and criminals of all kinds. There is just about a psychological classification for every criminal who repeats the same type of offences on a regular basis, as the medical profession seeks to try and understand why these people behave the way they do. There is a growing list of these type of people, characterised by medical science who like trying to prove evolution, come up with all sorts of theories and explanations to pigeon hole these people. In reality every one of us could become one of these statistics in one form or another. Man is a fallen being. If we do not accept this, then this post is not for you. (Wally 2023) As a result of inheriting the fallen nature (human nature) we have the knowledge of good and evil within us. Make no mistake, in a general sense there are no boundaries which limit this good and evil. Circumstances, opportunity and temptation can turn any one of us into a seriously depraved being in one form or another. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. None of us are perfect. We are all susceptible to temptation and temptation can lead to sin if not unchecked. However, what may by my weakness or weaknesses, may not be yours, and vice versa, but undeniably we all have our weaknesses through which we may be tempted. We are not all tempted in the same way and some things that would never tempt one individual, may tempt another, according to the fallen nature each of us has inherited. Jesus assures us that sin (read also criminal conduct) begins in the mind and if given ground will lead to temptation which if given opportunity can easily lead to criminal/sinful conduct. That's how it works. It may be developed over a period of time, but can happen instantly. It doesn't matter if it's CSA, SA, fornication, violence, social offences, etc, etc. Most of the matters coming to light within the sect are either of a criminal nature or are immoral (spiritual crimes). The foregoing paragraphs explains why things of a criminal/sinful nature occur everywhere and are impossible to stamp out completely. Whilst education is a useful tool to address CSA, SA etc., this is simply not enough. The matters we are talking about are largely criminal in nature directly linked to the human propensity to sin. If we are serious about reducing as far as possible abusive acts against the most vulnerable members in the sect, we must first and foremost introduce reasonable crime prevention measures in order to tackle circumstances, opportunity and temptation. After all we all pray (the believers amongst us that is) 'lead us not into temptation,' when we indulge in the Lord's Prayer. There's no point in praying this if we are not taking steps to address circumstances, opportunities and temptations. As Wally boldly projects.....Crime Prevention First. It is not foolproof but it will reduce the chances that predators have to flourish. And no, I am not overlooking education, but the horse must go before the cart. Some think the cart is enough, which is foolish.
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Post by breakfree on Aug 11, 2023 9:30:44 GMT -5
It's been a while!....but nothing 's changed....only new revelations of a "SYSTEM " that needs to be looked at in a serious manner and regarded for what it's all about...the pandemic and lockdown was good enough for me to be fully convinced about what is required for my personal salvation and relationship with my Heavenly Father... who needs to belong to a group to be "saved" ?? Who needs guidance from fellow humans about how to live your life? Who needs rules and regulations from sinners? The list goes on! It's GREAT to BeFREE! BREAK FREE! That's me! You have to get out of the boat ,if you want to walk on the water! Jesus encouraged Peter to come to Him .but you must first get out of the boat(your comfort zone) if you want to experience an exhilarating everlasting LIFE with God!
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Post by Admin on Sept 5, 2023 7:55:10 GMT -5
George Peterson Apology
Monday, September 4, 2023
Dear friends and fellow servants,
It is needful for me to express thoughts and feelings that have come to me over the past few months. When I arrived on the Missouri/Arkansas staff in April of 2012, I now realize there are judgements I could have made and actions I could have taken at that time that may have prevented immoral conduct during the time I have been on this staff. It is said when laws of the land are broken, ignorance is no excuse. I understand that I failed in giving information regarding Ira that would have prevented arrangements for sister workers to stay in Ira’s home. I’m very sorry for the lack of action that would have prevented sexual abuse. My present knowledge of both perpetrators’ pursuits and laws regarding actions committed by them enables me to seek to make proper judgments in the future, should it be my lot to do so.
Sincerely, George Peterson
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Post by snow on Sept 5, 2023 13:28:46 GMT -5
George Peterson ApologyMonday, September 4, 2023 Dear friends and fellow servants, It is needful for me to express thoughts and feelings that have come to me over the past few months. When I arrived on the Missouri/Arkansas staff in April of 2012, I now realize there are judgements I could have made and actions I could have taken at that time that may have prevented immoral conduct during the time I have been on this staff. It is said when laws of the land are broken, ignorance is no excuse. I understand that I failed in giving information regarding Ira that would have prevented arrangements for sister workers to stay in Ira’s home. I’m very sorry for the lack of action that would have prevented sexual abuse. My present knowledge of both perpetrators’ pursuits and laws regarding actions committed by them enables me to seek to make proper judgments in the future, should it be my lot to do so. Sincerely, George Peterson It still amazes me how often the overseers are using the excuse that they didn't understand what they were doing was wrong! They are supposed to be spirit led, be the friends guides in morality and here they are stating they didn't know it was wrong, allowing predators that have committed SA or CSA to be among the friends without the friends knowing of their crimes or allegations. That should have been a given. It appears that many are morally bankrupt and their excuse is ignorance when they are caught. We're so sorry we did what we did. It's a little late for sorry although that is welcome of course, but now we need to see some action, some consequences. We don't see any of these guys admitting to wrong doing, bad judgement calls stepping down. They think if they say 'sorry' that no consequences should happen to them. It just doesn't work that way in the real world. Looks like it works that way in the F&W world though. Or at least they seem to think it should work that way.
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Post by Admin on Sept 6, 2023 5:54:03 GMT -5
It still amazes me how often the overseers are using the excuse that they didn't understand what they were doing was wrong! They are supposed to be spirit led, be the friends guides in morality and here they are stating they didn't know it was wrong, allowing predators that have committed SA or CSA to be among the friends without the friends knowing of their crimes or allegations. That should have been a given. It appears that many are morally bankrupt and their excuse is ignorance when they are caught. We're so sorry we did what we did. It's a little late for sorry although that is welcome of course, but now we need to see some action, some consequences. We don't see any of these guys admitting to wrong doing, bad judgement calls stepping down. They think if they say 'sorry' that no consequences should happen to them. It just doesn't work that way in the real world. Looks like it works that way in the F&W world though. Or at least they seem to think it should work that way. Clearly not "Spirit-led" when they act like George Peterson has confessed. Even if they engaged the brain and thought (using mere human reasoning) "what would Jesus do?", Peterson and his ilk would behave very differently. (Not that WWJD is any substitute for being Spirit-led, because our human reasoning implied in WWJD mostly never gets it right. All that happened in the Acts would never have been imagined if the disciples were relying on WWJD. What on earth was motivating Peterson and co. to get it so very wrong??!)
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Post by learner on Sept 7, 2023 4:53:04 GMT -5
What is wrong with these people? i work for large organisations that are under public scrutiny often. There is no way a top leader would survive trying to pass off the excuse that ‘they didn’t know’. They set the culture for an oragnaisation. I’ve even worked in education - and often heard the Principal telling children that we are a ‘telling school’. There is nothing that we must keep to ourselves. Top leadership set the tone and culture where it is ok to tell bad news, or to whistle blow.
Step aside now, all overseers. What is the scripture? Matthew 18:6 (NIV) “If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Luke 17:2 (NIV) It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.
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