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Post by fixit on Jun 26, 2023 1:55:53 GMT -5
Outside scripture, James was the leader of the Christians in Jerusalem. It wouldn't be a great leap to consider him an early "overseer" = "leader". James was also the first book of the NT to be written roughly 44AD or close. Probably cause he was indeed the "Leader" and brother of Christ. Next they'll be calling the disciples workers, and talking about Jesus professing at 12! It's a bad idea to start with a premise and pick out scripture to substantiate it.
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Post by fixit on Jun 26, 2023 2:03:10 GMT -5
I wonder what Ray would think of the following?
Romans 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God.
15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received a spirit of adoption. When we cry, “Abba! Father!”
16 it is that very Spirit bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs: heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if we in fact suffer with him so that we may also be glorified with him.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 26, 2023 2:36:07 GMT -5
I may be missing something here....How does Jesus profess at 12 yrs to be a Christian when he is meant to be Christ himself? I actually heard a ninkum poop once refer to Jesus professing at twelve - can you believe it? And the disciples referred to as early workers.
This is an example of selecting answers, and then going back into the bible to find questions that fit. And that's how some try to re-write history.
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Post by guest8 on Jun 26, 2023 2:54:01 GMT -5
It kind of reminds me of some garden wire I bought the other day. No skill needed as I could bend and twist it any which way very easily, to suit my requirements.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2023 3:52:35 GMT -5
Not sure I mentioned the trinity or did I? I did not state you did. I did, because it was in context to my understanding of the verse. Verse 49 has nothing to do with the trinity, so not sure what context or understanding you are reaching for. It seemed you were replying to my comment which had nothing to do with the trinity either. Or has ole proboards fooled me again?
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Post by snow on Jun 26, 2023 16:16:00 GMT -5
I may be missing something here....How does Jesus profess at 12 yrs to be a Christian when he is meant to be Christ himself? Now guest8 you're trying to analyze this with logic! My first thought was Jesus was a bit late. By 12 I had professed and quit... It's obviously just the big egos of those men in charge that they draw parallels between themselves and important Christians in the bible.
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Post by Admin on Jun 27, 2023 7:51:20 GMT -5
I may be missing something here....How does Jesus profess at 12 yrs to be a Christian when he is meant to be Christ himself? Now guest8 you're trying to analyze this with logic! My first thought was Jesus was a bit late. By 12 I had professed and quit... It's obviously just the big egos of those men in charge that they draw parallels between themselves and important Christians in the bible. Egos and ignorance. And proud of it, no less! A dose of humility wouldn't go astray. Might help with some learnings: " However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth."
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 29, 2023 0:37:36 GMT -5
I may be missing something here....How does Jesus profess at 12 yrs to be a Christian when he is meant to be Christ himself? He didn't know that until he found himself in a mirror in Jerusalem.
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Post by margaret on Jun 29, 2023 8:50:48 GMT -5
Where the hell does it say that James was an overseer? Jeez Louise! What’s Ray Hoffmans email? I want to ask him a few questions Outside scripture, James was the leader of the Christians in Jerusalem. It wouldn't be a great leap to consider him an early "overseer" = "leader". James was also the first book of the NT to be written roughly 44AD or close. Probably cause he was indeed the "Leader" and brother of Christ. the leader of the christians or the leader of the workers? If he was a leader of the workers then he would have disobeyed the teachings of Jesus and I am sure James didn’t do that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2023 9:14:52 GMT -5
Outside scripture, James was the leader of the Christians in Jerusalem. It wouldn't be a great leap to consider him an early "overseer" = "leader". James was also the first book of the NT to be written roughly 44AD or close. Probably cause he was indeed the "Leader" and brother of Christ. the leader of the christians or the leader of the workers? If he was a leader of the workers then he would have disobeyed the teachings of Jesus and I am sure James didn’t do that. Did I stutter? NAMI, they can help...
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Post by Admin on Jul 3, 2023 9:19:38 GMT -5
Elders Meeting in St. Louis MO field - July 2023
All the elders and their wives in the St. Louis. MO field had a meeting last Sunday evening and agreed upon a written protocol to deal with known and suspected CSA/SA perpetrators in their field. They have all graciously agreed to allow this information to be disseminated to fellowship members outside of their own meetings.
All are in agreement that with any single allegation, all elders will be contacted immediately.
The local law enforcement authorities will also be immediately contacted regarding the allegation, and the alleged perpetrator will be immediately removed from fellowship, to include all fellowship meetings of any type in the St. Louis area.
Workers in the field will also be contacted, but the workers will not be involved in the initial process of hearing the allegation or reporting it to authorities.
Any victim who decides to come forward can talk with any elder or any elder’s wife. They don’t need to go to the elder or his wife where they usually attend fellowship meeting, if they are more comfortable talking to someone else.
We hope that the courage, initiative, and unity that this group of elders and wives have shown in such a large city can act as an encouragement, catalyst, and model for others around the continent and world as we continue forward.
Attached below is the actual written communication to be distributed to the individual St. Louis fellowship meeting members:
1. The fellowship meetings will be a safe place. No known abusers will be allowed.
2. Known abusers in the St Louis area will be shared with the elders and their individual meetings. (Workers will be informed for further communication to be dispersed)
3. Any elder or their wife will listen to an accusation and will report it. (No one accusing someone should feel they have to report to one or the other as some might only feel comfortable talking to a woman and not a man)
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Post by Admin on Jul 15, 2023 17:47:04 GMT -5
Ex-worker writes to the ministry
July 15 Dear workers,
I was once one of you. You are very familiar with parables and stories. I feel compelled to share this with you. I am trying to help you understand where I am, why I’m here, how I feel, and who did this to me. The only way I can do this justice is by telling you a story that describes that. Reading this will be (and should be) VERY uncomfortable for you. If you have an ounce of integrity, if you have any faith in Christ, if you have any feeling in your heart for souls beyond yourself, read this despite the discomfort.
I stand on the doorstep of your house. I knock, but expect no answer. How do I know I’m at the right place? There is no address. I can tell because this house is different than every other house I’ve passed. From them, I heard crying and wailing. I peeked in some of their windows and saw people weeping. What a pitiful state they were in! Their skin was covered with rashes where the uncomfortable sackcloth irritated it. Between their sobs they often coughed as dust from the ashes around them got caught in their throat.
But this house is different. The only sounds that might represent sorrow are the cries of “why me?” and “it’s not fair!” when another perpetrator gets caught. I peek through a window and listen in on the conversations. The discussions aren’t joyful, but they’re not repentant either. “How much longer must we endure this drudgery? Surely things will get back to the blissful normalcy we deserve soon!” The words are loud and clear, no one is sorry for them to be overheard.
Oh yes, I am at the right house. I struggle with the burden in my arms and knock again. Someone has been here before me. They tore the cover off of a copy of your gospel meeting hymn book. With a marker, they circled the part of the cover that carries the warning in small caps: “WORDS ONLY”. The cover has been nailed to the door as a warning to anyone who stops by expecting action, change, help, or even compassion. “WORDS ONLY”, no fruit here.
I’ve taken enough time. I need to keep moving. I leave my load on the stoop and walk away.
What will you find when you finally open the door? You will find the body of my faith, faith that has been with me for decades. Crushed and lifeless, totally broken beyond repair. Not my faith in “The Truth”, not my faith in a group of people, not my faith in a ministry.
This was my faith in the very existence of a kind and loving God.
Who did this?
You did. Time and again (beginning when I was a teenager), when I personally needed help, you were nowhere. When Dean Bruer’s truth was made public, you refused to expose the evildoers you knew about. You took so long to respond to the crisis that it is obvious your care was never for the victim-survivors. You care most of all for your own reputation and so you tried to hush the cries of the injured. I have never trusted wicked men to do the right thing, but I trusted you. You failed me and so many others. Your influence and false doctrine convinced people to write letters to judges in support for perpetrators — letters that called the victims liars.
You did this. You taught that hell was a place for those who disagreed with you. You spoke as an authority on things you could not have known. You had fellowship with abusers but said gay people were “confused”. You never asked a gay person what their relationship with God was like. Even today, the thought of a gay person existing and having a relationship with God fills you with discomfort and dread... and even if you feel otherwise you would never dare preach it because you love the praise of men more than the praise of the God you preach.
And what about your treatment of workers who leave the work? “WORDS ONLY”. This week a worker from this field went home because his young frame is worn out by this injustice. Did the overseer send him home with any financial help? Nope, we asked him. Overseers have proven to be very comfortable watching ex-workers suffer. You will preach about “love”, but you refuse to show it, or to even encourage your ex-workers to get counseling for the trauma you have caused. You refuse to give them funds to make that possible.
But not everyone in the work is an overseer! What about those who aren’t? What about brothers and sisters who aren’t in positions of leadership? There is no longer a distinction between good worker and bad worker. All who continue are a part of the ministry of destruction. You say you are powerless, but you have a voice. Have you used it? Have you been angry when you saw oppression? Have you valued souls in their agony enough to speak out? Have you been like most, frozen in fear of what you might suffer by speaking out loudly and definitely? Or have you been motivated by love to make things right for the injured and the oppressed?
What have you preached? Have you preached the doctrine of a creator who loved souls so much he made a plan with another part of his divine self to sacrifice him to purify souls? It is said that there was such love and unity between them that still today people debate whether God is one person or three. Was the doctrine you preached similarly united with the values of that divinity? Or was it a doctrine that “flesh is so bad, the world is so bad, you are so bad”, a doctrine that focused not on how marvelous God is, but rather on how right your form is?
Interestingly, scripture teaches that your God lives within people, but few ever felt pure enough to believe it. What if that message was supposed to be that Love lives within us? It does say that “God is love”. If there is a God and he is love, he has been sorely misrepresented by your actions and your inactions.
My faith is dead. Others’ faith is dying. You are the reason. You accuse people of trying to destroy God’s way, yet you refuse to be good or honest enough to admit that you are the force of destruction for so many children, parents, siblings, souls. Some of you say “But we are doing things! We are believing the victims! We are turning people in to authorities and assisting with investigations!” But you also justify the heavy loads you’ve laid on us when you didn’t understand, you’ve told us to stay in a toxic place, you’ve scolded us for being “rash” when we got fed up with the psychological injuries we’ve endured.
My faith is dead and you do not care.
Where is this purposeful stride taking me now? Where am I headed? I am going to the wilderness. You taught me that was a place to avoid, a place that is unsafe. There is nowhere less safe than your house. I am going to the wilderness. I am going to learn and to love. Love is the only thing I trust now. I know those who have loved me and I know those whom I have loved. I will meet others and love them, too. Is love divine? I don’t know. I do know love isn’t all-powerful. I do know love doesn’t know everything. I do know if there is a God someday he will teach me about himself through love. He will not punish me for letting go of false, hurtful, powerless doctrine. Even if there is no God, our love for one another can only make this life better.
So I am going to the wilderness. This is where you have driven me.
How many more souls must see their faith destroyed? How many others must you drive away before you repent? Make no mistake: CSA is a wicked fruit. You must deal with it now. However, if you only deal with the fruit and not with the root, wickedness will rise up again in time.
Why has your fellowship and your ministry become such a safe place for perpetrators? Why have sister workers gone from house to house teaching that the solution is for parents to do better at watching their children? Why do you refuse to clothe your spirit in sackcloth and sit in ashes? Why do you preach about repentance but prove to be wholly incapable and unwilling to practice it? What is it about your ministry that you are so proud of? What seems so righteous or good to you that you so willingly excuse all the wickedness, deceit, and coverups? And finally, Mr. Ray Hoffman, when you knew everything that Ira Hobbs had done, why did you write in a letter, “The things that we have felt needful to discuss here is in no way to take away from all the good that Ira has done, nor of Americo”? These are uncomfortable questions you must ask if you have any hope of the future being better. These are not questions I need to hear answered because I am done with “WORDS ONLY”. But there are others who still look to you expecting help. Do not destroy their faith as you have destroyed mine. You consider the blood of Jesus holy. If you believe that, then start treating the souls on whose behalf that blood was shed as holy as well.
Sincerely finished, Joel Riggs
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2023 18:04:56 GMT -5
Not all that helpful if you ask me...clearly anguished though...
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Post by snow on Jul 16, 2023 16:43:07 GMT -5
Not all that helpful if you ask me...clearly anguished though... Unfortunately that's the state of many over the years and now especially. Even me, who's not been to a meeting for 50 years is having trouble with finding out about the church I was raised in and my parents professed in for over 80 years in my mother's case. I am so glad that they will never know about what has been going on with some of the workers they adored and respected. Going through their worker albums and reading the names of those that are making the headlines on here makes me incredibly sad. All I can say, is that I hope they were happy and fulfilled in this church and not just being there because they believed it was their only way to get to heaven. Because they definitely believed you had to profess and be baptized in this group to be saved. That was what was the hardest thing for me knowing how upset they were because they believed I was going to hell.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2023 23:51:38 GMT -5
Not all that helpful if you ask me...clearly anguished though... Unfortunately that's the state of many over the years and now especially. Even me, who's not been to a meeting for 50 years is having trouble with finding out about the church I was raised in and my parents professed in for over 80 years in my mother's case. I am so glad that they will never know about what has been going on with some of the workers they adored and respected. Going through their worker albums and reading the names of those that are making the headlines on here makes me incredibly sad. All I can say, is that I hope they were happy and fulfilled in this church and not just being there because they believed it was their only way to get to heaven. Because they definitely believed you had to profess and be baptized in this group to be saved. That was what was the hardest thing for me knowing how upset they were because they believed I was going to hell. I'm glad my grandparents and most of moms brothers and sisters are gone now too even on rotten fathers side I'm glad some are gone so they don't see this crap... It might have destroyed them and that would be a tragedy, nothing like a victim but it would have probably been bad...
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Post by SharonArnold on Jul 17, 2023 14:57:54 GMT -5
Unfortunately that's the state of many over the years and now especially. Even me, who's not been to a meeting for 50 years is having trouble with finding out about the church I was raised in and my parents professed in for over 80 years in my mother's case. I am so glad that they will never know about what has been going on with some of the workers they adored and respected. Going through their worker albums and reading the names of those that are making the headlines on here makes me incredibly sad. All I can say, is that I hope they were happy and fulfilled in this church and not just being there because they believed it was their only way to get to heaven. Because they definitely believed you had to profess and be baptized in this group to be saved. That was what was the hardest thing for me knowing how upset they were because they believed I was going to hell. I'm glad my grandparents and most of moms brothers and sisters are gone now too even on rotten fathers side I'm glad some are gone so they don't see this crap... It might have destroyed them and that would be a tragedy, nothing like a victim but it would have probably been bad... Yeah. My heart weeps for my ancestors and present day family (and the younger version of myself) who have poured so much of themselves into this, not quite understanding the malevolence that is also there. But... Life is bigger than this. Way bigger. There is no end to the majesty and the mystery that we are all part of, don't ever doubt it.
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Post by ForeverFree on Jul 17, 2023 21:07:04 GMT -5
I may be missing something here....How does Jesus profess at 12 yrs to be a Christian when he is meant to be Christ himself? I actually heard a ninkum poop once refer to Jesus professing at twelve - can you believe it? And the disciples referred to as early workers. This is an example of selecting answers, and then going back into the bible to find questions that fit. And that's how some try to re-write history.
And the disciples referred to as early workers. About two years ago, I was visiting family and sat in on a COVID telephone gospel meeting. I don't remember anything that the brother worker was speaking about, but I do clearly remember him talking about some certain people in the Bible and saying, "They were the workers. They were the workers."
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jul 18, 2023 8:37:54 GMT -5
Site logo image WINGS for Truth Letter to the church, whether or not you attend meetings
wingsfortruth2 Jul 18 All my life I have preferred to stay out of the spotlight, to quietly try to fill my place and do my part. Unfortunately, there sometimes comes a time where it is necessary to be willing to stand for what is right while others sit silently by. I recently went to Hermosa convention with a testimony burned on my heart. For days I wrestled with it, prayed and meditated on it. Asked if it could come from someone else, asked if I could give the testimony and the words be remembered, but not the speaker. Sometimes the answer that we receive is no, and that was my answer. I will not deny the message that God has put on my heart. I will not stand idly by while evil and self-interest pervades God’s people. I stood in the first meeting and spoke my message. As close as I can recall it:
“I have come here with a message upon my heart, and I will have no peace until I share it. David committed a terrible crime. He used his power to take that which was not his, and then used his power to cover it up. He was forgiven, but there were consequences, and he became unworthy to build God’s temple. There will be a day when forgiveness is absolute, in eternity forgiveness will have no consequences and no loss of worthiness. But we are not in eternity, and while we are on earth there are consequences and there can be a loss of worthiness. Lately we have been hearing stories of those who used their power to commit terrible acts, and stories of those who used their power to cover those acts up. There can be forgiveness, but there are consequences and there is a loss of worthiness. Some have become unworthy of having fellowship in our homes – especially ones with the most innocent and vulnerable. Some have become unworthy to be a part of God’s ministry. Every year we hear from the platform about that desperate need in the harvest field. There is a need, but that need might not seem so desperate if the worthy ministers were not unevenly yoked with the unworthy and with wolves.”
This is not a message I feel worthy to speak on but is a message that I must share. There seems to be a thought amongst some that the only way to be saved is to attend meetings. That casting people from our fellowship homes is relegating people to hell. That is not true. We do not need meetings to be saved, we need a close personal relationship with God. Abusers that are truly repentant will see that they are a danger to the meetings and accept that they have lost worthiness. They will accept that there are places that they cannot go, that there are positions that they are unworthy of. The ones who fight against those consequences are the ones who are not repentant.
Growing up reading the bible I was aware that there were going to be false ministers, that there were going to be wolves in sheep’s clothing hiding among the flock. So, when the stories originally came out I was sad, but not surprised. What did surprise me were the stories that kept coming out about all of those who used their position to sweep things under the rug. To tell victims of terrible abuse that they needed to forgive their abusers and to not involve the law. Hearing of workers, who were known to be abusers, moved to a different state rather than removed from the ministry and arrested. I cannot begin to express the hate that has raged in my heart since hearing those stories. We are to be like God. To love the things that God loves and to hate the things that God hates. God hates the abuse of his little ones. God hates that the abusers are allowed to remain in his ministry. God hates that ministers in positions of power would prefer to do that which is easy to that which is right.
It's easy to pass off the blame. It’s easy to tell victims that they need to forgive their abusers. It’s easy to allow people to remain in meetings, to allow ministers to remain in the ministry. None of it is right. Mathew 23:24 “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.” Why is there such a strain to tell survivors to forgive those who are not even repentant. Why is that the gnat that causes such consternation. You have swallowed the camel that is sexual assault. You have swallowed the camel that is abuse. Mathew 23:25 “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.”
I will name no names in this letter. I do not know who the righteous are and who the unrighteous are. The overseers and the workers know who among them is unworthy. The elders and meetings know who among them is unworthy. They know who clings to power. They know who (Matthew 23:26) “love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and chief seats at the synagogues.” Cast them out.
There are few things that Jesus said that are said in multiple gospels. One thing that was said in Mathew, Mark, and Luke was deemed important enough to be included in 3 of them. Mark 9:42 “And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.” That verse isn’t just for the people who have perpetrated abuse. Not just for those who swept it under the rug. That verse is also for those who sat idly by. Those who, through their lack of standing against evil, caused offence. In testimony we also heard at Hermosa that in the parable of the good Samaritan that it was the fault of the thieves that the man was in a ditch on the side of the road. But that as soon as the Levite and priest saw and did nothing, they were why that man was still in the ditch.
John Stuart Mill wrote “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” Too many have done nothing. Too many have walked on the other side of the road while the wounded were dying. Too many have trusted that others knew best. Do not deceive yourself. You know what is best, you know what Jesus would do. He would cast the evil out.
I have seen many letters from those who have stopped coming to meetings, explaining why – the wrong that they saw in the church. This is my letter as to why I have stayed. It is not because I need the fellowship. Never have I learned or grown more in my personal relationship with God, than during Covid when we had no fellowship meetings. I stayed, because I love the friends. It is because I believe that this is the closest thing to what Jesus taught. I have stayed because I believe that change must come from within. I am unafraid of being asked not to share. I am unafraid of being asked not to attend. Mathew 10:28 “Fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
I have seen the pride that people have in what family people come from. People revering “good families” as if the next generation inherits the testimony of the prior. I have seen people looked down on because they aren’t from the white middle or upper class. I have seen the pervasion of tradition being treated as scripture. I have seen people create rules and treat them as if they are the law. I have not been blind. I have tried to do everything I can to push back on those wrongs, but now I publicly state the feelings of my heart on these issues.
Some of the worst offences we have seen are by those who come from a “good family” and “made a mistake”. That attitude is what allows repeat offenders to continue their offences. A lot of the offences are pushed under the rug because they are committed on those that are seen as on the fringes of the flock. Offenders can sense who the most vulnerable are. They can sense who the flock does not fully welcome. They target them and go free, because people don’t care as much about them. I will not dance around the issues with niceties and platitudes. Often it is the poor, the ones from broken homes, and the minorities who get no consideration. When they face abuse and cry out, they are the most likely to be told what happened was their own fault. There is an issue with racism. There is an issue with classism. There is an issue with elitism. There is an issue with sexism. There is an issue with tradition. God’s way is perfect, but men are trying to walk it imperfectly. These are the imperfections. These are the reasons that it took so long for these issues to come to light. Unless I am asked not to, I will consider myself a part of this way, but I will not accept the wrongs that are pervading it.
It may feel less important than some of the terrible wrongs that have been happening, but it is also important to stamp out the littler things. The tradition of it being evil or wrong for women to wear pants or have their hair down is something that should have been left in the past. The continued control of how women look, and dress is about control and shame. There is no reason that people dress in a specific way to go to fellowship meetings. How many people who would have happily shared fellowship with us have been turned aside by something that is not biblical and is treated as if it is. It is not because they are unwilling, it is because they see something that is not of God. It is easier to blame others than look within.
Do what is right, not what is easy. Look within the fellowship, cast out traditions, prove the ministers, and live for God.
Trevor Larsen
Fargo, ND
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Post by verna on Jul 18, 2023 10:17:01 GMT -5
I think this is a great letter. Kudos. This is what arises in my analytical brain. Really? He said all this is a testimony at convention? I just can’t imagine it. My recollection is that people were only allowed a few sentences. The workers had a way of shutting people down. But if it was allowed, I’m impressed. Input from current 2x2ers? Set me straight.
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Peony
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Post by Peony on Jul 18, 2023 10:47:31 GMT -5
I think this is a great letter. Kudos. This is what arises in my analytical brain. Really? He said all this is a testimony at convention? I just can’t imagine it. My recollection is that people were only allowed a few sentences. The workers had a way of shutting people down. But if it was allowed, I’m impressed. Input from current 2x2ers? Set me straight. I think it was just the second paragraph, in quotes. Edited to add: I didn't know that two or three question marks together make a frowning emoji
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Post by verna on Jul 18, 2023 11:39:27 GMT -5
I think this is a great letter. Kudos. This is what arises in my analytical brain. Really? He said all this is a testimony at convention? I just can’t imagine it. My recollection is that people were only allowed a few sentences. The workers had a way of shutting people down. But if it was allowed, I’m impressed. Input from current 2x2ers? Set me straight. I think it was just the second paragraph, in quotes. Edited to add: I didn't know that two or three question marks together make a frowning emoji Oh thank you for clarifying for me Peony. That makes much more sense. I also understand, in that context, why he didn’t get pushback. Thx again.
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Post by getreal on Jul 18, 2023 11:40:19 GMT -5
It is in many ways a remarkable, well written letter. But if you are staying mainly because you love the friends, how far does that get you? If those friends continue to support those who enabled, covered up wrong doing, how long can you stay because you love them. The fundamental changes needed are so broad and deep as to be unlikely to happen to the degree needed, so you continue to stay because you love the friends?
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Peony
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Post by Peony on Jul 18, 2023 12:08:51 GMT -5
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Post by getreal on Jul 18, 2023 13:40:38 GMT -5
Thanks Peony. Yes a council of friends, voted in by friends in each field. An unfortunate unintended consequence of meeting in the home is that for practical reasons more affluent homes with room and people with enough money to host etc are chosen. The beauty of a little council in each field is that the many other wise and worthy folks, older and single and younger etc can serve so a more diverse group, shorter terms. Its going to be a very bumpy ride trying any of this out. Maybe a few fields with willing workers could give it a go. Another healthy change I think is important is converting the formal wed study to an informal one where true open and honest and yes sometimes messy sharing can happen. The friends mistake sweet fellowship for what has just been a lock on what can be said. Meetings have gotten so cliche and rote. Same things said over and over. The friends have a hard time discussing the Bible and what they believe with themselves and others. The fear of judgement if you cross some line keeps people from being honest and asking some questions, questioning the workers. There needs to be room for civil disagreement and growth and evolution.
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Peony
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Post by Peony on Jul 18, 2023 13:49:40 GMT -5
Thanks for responding, getreal. This is all excruciatingly unsettling.
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Post by snow on Jul 18, 2023 15:43:04 GMT -5
I read that letter awhile ago and thought it was well written and I loved the well thought out solutions. If we are honest, if there is ever going to be changes in the group, they need to come from inside the group, specifically the friends and possibly the younger workers. What the exes say or suggest just doesn't register with the overseers as anything but bitter exes that don't want the group to exist. It's true, some do think that way, but a great number don't. But they will be ignored because they are exes which get labelled bitter etc. So for those who stay in, and I know a few personally, that are fighting for changes from a position or respect, they are the ones that if anyone can help make changes, it is them. So kudos to them and I sincerely hope they succeed.
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Post by Admin on Jul 18, 2023 17:07:01 GMT -5
This is what Trevor said when it was his time to speak at Hermosa Convention
Letter to the church, whether or not you attend meetings
Jul 18 All my life I have preferred to stay out of the spotlight, to quietly try to fill my place and do my part. Unfortunately, there sometimes comes a time where it is necessary to be willing to stand for what is right while others sit silently by. I recently went to Hermosa convention with a testimony burned on my heart. For days I wrestled with it, prayed and meditated on it. Asked if it could come from someone else, asked if I could give the testimony and the words be remembered, but not the speaker. Sometimes the answer that we receive is no, and that was my answer. I will not deny the message that God has put on my heart. I will not stand idly by while evil and self-interest pervades God’s people. I stood in the first meeting and spoke my message. As close as I can recall it:
“I have come here with a message upon my heart, and I will have no peace until I share it. David committed a terrible crime. He used his power to take that which was not his, and then used his power to cover it up. He was forgiven, but there were consequences, and he became unworthy to build God’s temple. There will be a day when forgiveness is absolute, in eternity forgiveness will have no consequences and no loss of worthiness. But we are not in eternity, and while we are on earth there are consequences and there can be a loss of worthiness. Lately we have been hearing stories of those who used their power to commit terrible acts, and stories of those who used their power to cover those acts up. There can be forgiveness, but there are consequences and there is a loss of worthiness. Some have become unworthy of having fellowship in our homes – especially ones with the most innocent and vulnerable. Some have become unworthy to be a part of God’s ministry. Every year we hear from the platform about that desperate need in the harvest field. There is a need, but that need might not seem so desperate if the worthy ministers were not unevenly yoked with the unworthy and with wolves.”
This is not a message I feel worthy to speak on but is a message that I must share. There seems to be a thought amongst some that the only way to be saved is to attend meetings. That casting people from our fellowship homes is relegating people to hell. That is not true. We do not need meetings to be saved, we need a close personal relationship with God. Abusers that are truly repentant will see that they are a danger to the meetings and accept that they have lost worthiness. They will accept that there are places that they cannot go, that there are positions that they are unworthy of. The ones who fight against those consequences are the ones who are not repentant.
Growing up reading the bible I was aware that there were going to be false ministers, that there were going to be wolves in sheep’s clothing hiding among the flock. So, when the stories originally came out I was sad, but not surprised. What did surprise me were the stories that kept coming out about all of those who used their position to sweep things under the rug. To tell victims of terrible abuse that they needed to forgive their abusers and to not involve the law. Hearing of workers, who were known to be abusers, moved to a different state rather than removed from the ministry and arrested. I cannot begin to express the hate that has raged in my heart since hearing those stories. We are to be like God. To love the things that God loves and to hate the things that God hates. God hates the abuse of his little ones. God hates that the abusers are allowed to remain in his ministry. God hates that ministers in positions of power would prefer to do that which is easy to that which is right.
It's easy to pass off the blame. It’s easy to tell victims that they need to forgive their abusers. It’s easy to allow people to remain in meetings, to allow ministers to remain in the ministry. None of it is right. Mathew 23:24 “Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat and swallow a camel.” Why is there such a strain to tell survivors to forgive those who are not even repentant. Why is that the gnat that causes such consternation. You have swallowed the camel that is sexual assault. You have swallowed the camel that is abuse. Mathew 23:25 “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.”
I will name no names in this letter. I do not know who the righteous are and who the unrighteous are. The overseers and the workers know who among them is unworthy. The elders and meetings know who among them is unworthy. They know who clings to power. They know who (Matthew 23:26) “love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and chief seats at the synagogues.” Cast them out.
There are few things that Jesus said that are said in multiple gospels. One thing that was said in Mathew, Mark, and Luke was deemed important enough to be included in 3 of them. Mark 9:42 “And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.” That verse isn’t just for the people who have perpetrated abuse. Not just for those who swept it under the rug. That verse is also for those who sat idly by. Those who, through their lack of standing against evil, caused offence. In testimony we also heard at Hermosa that in the parable of the good Samaritan that it was the fault of the thieves that the man was in a ditch on the side of the road. But that as soon as the Levite and priest saw and did nothing, they were why that man was still in the ditch.
John Stuart Mill wrote “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.” Too many have done nothing. Too many have walked on the other side of the road while the wounded were dying. Too many have trusted that others knew best. Do not deceive yourself. You know what is best, you know what Jesus would do. He would cast the evil out.
I have seen many letters from those who have stopped coming to meetings, explaining why – the wrong that they saw in the church. This is my letter as to why I have stayed. It is not because I need the fellowship. Never have I learned or grown more in my personal relationship with God, than during Covid when we had no fellowship meetings. I stayed, because I love the friends. It is because I believe that this is the closest thing to what Jesus taught. I have stayed because I believe that change must come from within. I am unafraid of being asked not to share. I am unafraid of being asked not to attend. Mathew 10:28 “Fear not them which kill the body but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”
I have seen the pride that people have in what family people come from. People revering “good families” as if the next generation inherits the testimony of the prior. I have seen people looked down on because they aren’t from the white middle or upper class. I have seen the pervasion of tradition being treated as scripture. I have seen people create rules and treat them as if they are the law. I have not been blind. I have tried to do everything I can to push back on those wrongs, but now I publicly state the feelings of my heart on these issues.
Some of the worst offences we have seen are by those who come from a “good family” and “made a mistake”. That attitude is what allows repeat offenders to continue their offences. A lot of the offences are pushed under the rug because they are committed on those that are seen as on the fringes of the flock. Offenders can sense who the most vulnerable are. They can sense who the flock does not fully welcome. They target them and go free, because people don’t care as much about them. I will not dance around the issues with niceties and platitudes. Often it is the poor, the ones from broken homes, and the minorities who get no consideration. When they face abuse and cry out, they are the most likely to be told what happened was their own fault. There is an issue with racism. There is an issue with classism. There is an issue with elitism. There is an issue with sexism. There is an issue with tradition. God’s way is perfect, but men are trying to walk it imperfectly. These are the imperfections. These are the reasons that it took so long for these issues to come to light. Unless I am asked not to, I will consider myself a part of this way, but I will not accept the wrongs that are pervading it.
It may feel less important than some of the terrible wrongs that have been happening, but it is also important to stamp out the littler things. The tradition of it being evil or wrong for women to wear pants or have their hair down is something that should have been left in the past. The continued control of how women look, and dress is about control and shame. There is no reason that people dress in a specific way to go to fellowship meetings. How many people who would have happily shared fellowship with us have been turned aside by something that is not biblical and is treated as if it is. It is not because they are unwilling, it is because they see something that is not of God. It is easier to blame others than look within.
Do what is right, not what is easy. Look within the fellowship, cast out traditions, prove the ministers, and live for God.
Trevor Larsen
Fargo, ND
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Post by bigtrax on Jul 18, 2023 17:14:36 GMT -5
So a council of friends voted in by friends. Wouldn't that just lead to basically more of the same issues? There's any number of churches that have that as their recipe and they have CSA/SA / transparency / accountability issues too. Think about it. Who would vote? Who would participate? Many wouldn't serve as between their children's activities, work responsibilities, businesses, taking care of elderly family members etc. they just don't have the time. A common complaint of friends I have outside the fellowship is how burdensome all these church sub committees are. What this fellowship needs are honest, humble, Spirit led leaders with the focus on Christ. No council is going to bring that about. Makes me appreciate even more the deacons, elders, workers and overseers that execute their responsibilities in a Godly manner.
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