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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2023 22:34:41 GMT -5
You and anyone who might take a similar stance with he/she said is always true, should think about it. When did I say that? You just gave an example of it...
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Post by fixit on Jun 19, 2023 22:45:07 GMT -5
You just gave an example of it... No more than you just gave an example of protecting perpetrators.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2023 22:49:07 GMT -5
You just gave an example of it... No more than you just gave an example of protecting perpetrators. You asked for an example, don't whine when I deliver....
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Post by snow on Jun 20, 2023 12:49:05 GMT -5
I have thought about that all my life. Why didn't I have the courage to report and go through the trial. I know that my being scared probably contributed to him abusing more women and I have to live with that. So on top of the trauma of the rape I have to live with the fact I was too much of a coward to go through the process. But I totally understand why I didn't and why many survivors don't. Your choice of words saying 'their refusal to report' does come across as blaming the survivor. We did what we were capable of doing. I don't think you meant that, but I just wanted to point that out as a survivor myself that did not report. I never viewed is as refusing to report, I just wasn't able, not strong enough. It's not easy, and there's no guarantee of a conviction as we can see in the recent example below... Most nights, when she's trying to get to sleep, Olivia hears the words of the lawyer at her rape trial, his voice drumming in her head. "My client would say you asked for it," it says. "He'd say you were moaning at the thought of it." "You're lying, aren't you, Olivia? You lied two years ago and you're lying today." "Why don't you just tell everyone what really happened?" "Have you no morals? Do you have no morals, Olivia, that you can get up here and lie in front of all these people?" "My client would say he was the one who asked you to leave and you wouldn't." "He would say that he walked you to your car to make sure you got home safely." "He would say that he gave you money to go and get yourself some dinner since he didn't feed you." "My client would say that you unbuttoned your shirt for him." www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/my-rapist-was-found-not-guilty-young-woman-horrified-and-revictimised-during-trial/ZQOY4SSTBVMKJ2NXQDZFEQRFEQ/I was 17, just had left home and was still very naive. I was also still in the mindset that if something went wrong it was my fault because that had been my reality while living at home. I had turned from God so everything that happened to me was because of my unwillingness. It was something I heard so much. So like many who have been raped, I blamed myself for not seeing what he was like. I should not have taken that ride home because it was raining. On and on I blamed myself. It took counselling for me to actually believe that it wasn't my fault other than putting myself in a position where it could happen. I look back and I can't believe how much I blamed myself for trusting him to actually take me home. We live and learn that's for sure.
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Post by snow on Jun 20, 2023 12:51:49 GMT -5
It's not easy, and there's no guarantee of a conviction as we can see in the recent example below... Most nights, when she's trying to get to sleep, Olivia hears the words of the lawyer at her rape trial, his voice drumming in her head. "My client would say you asked for it," it says. "He'd say you were moaning at the thought of it." "You're lying, aren't you, Olivia? You lied two years ago and you're lying today." "Why don't you just tell everyone what really happened?" "Have you no morals? Do you have no morals, Olivia, that you can get up here and lie in front of all these people?" "My client would say he was the one who asked you to leave and you wouldn't." "He would say that he walked you to your car to make sure you got home safely." "He would say that he gave you money to go and get yourself some dinner since he didn't feed you." "My client would say that you unbuttoned your shirt for him." www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/my-rapist-was-found-not-guilty-young-woman-horrified-and-revictimised-during-trial/ZQOY4SSTBVMKJ2NXQDZFEQRFEQ/Without video there is no way to know. Even with the current alleged HUGE wave of pedo's and hiders in the truth are we really going to guilty until proven innocent? What do you think a defense attorney should say/ask on behalf of his accused client if innocent? "Ah, your right he/she did it?" what's your definition of innocent until proven guilty? Finding out the truth can be a very painful process for either side on this issue. This is no fun for anyone. I've dumped like 90% of my he/she said is always false. You and anyone who might take a similar stance with he/she said is always true, should think about it. Except for predators of opportunity pedo's rarely stop with 1 victim. If NO ONE reports, then it continues as we can see, is there any solution to NO ONE reporting? None that I can see. Yes, God will get them but we all know NO ONE likes that solution, there are hundreds of posts here to attest to that, believer and unbeliever. I don't think fixit was saying the defense lawyer should have questioned differently. I think he was trying to show what women go through in those kinds of trials and why so many just can't face it. That's how I took his post anyway.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 20, 2023 13:11:52 GMT -5
Sadly this is true . It’s unfortunate that we are often dismissed . It makes it hard women to report out of fear they will be called liars or that she asked for it . Sickening
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Post by snow on Jun 20, 2023 13:32:02 GMT -5
Sadly this is true . It’s unfortunate that we are often dismissed . It makes it hard women to report out of fear they will be called liars or that she asked for it . Sickening The E. Jean Carroll case recently was a good example of what women face when they do charge their rapists. Reading that transcript was very hard for me. I wish I had, but I'm not sure at 17 that I could have faced it.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 20, 2023 13:48:09 GMT -5
Sadly this is true . It’s unfortunate that we are often dismissed . It makes it hard women to report out of fear they will be called liars or that she asked for it . Sickening The E. Jean Carroll case recently was a good example of what women face when they do charge their rapists. Reading that transcript was very hard for me. I wish I had, but I'm not sure at 17 that I could have faced it. it’s definitely a rough decision . I read a bit of it , but had to stop 🛑 Too many triggers !
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Post by snow on Jun 20, 2023 14:18:21 GMT -5
The E. Jean Carroll case recently was a good example of what women face when they do charge their rapists. Reading that transcript was very hard for me. I wish I had, but I'm not sure at 17 that I could have faced it. it’s definitely a rough decision . I read a bit of it , but had to stop 🛑 Too many triggers ! Yes I have to say I was triggered and it surprised me after all these years.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 20, 2023 15:17:02 GMT -5
it’s definitely a rough decision . I read a bit of it , but had to stop 🛑 Too many triggers ! Yes I have to say I was triggered and it surprised me after all these years. Regardless of what professional and some worker’s think . We will always have that memory . To say forgive and forget , is not possible . It is hard wired into our psyche . My worst trigger is the smell of a cigar . It takes my right back to the age of 2-9 years CSA from my great uncle . A cigar , just the smell makes me physically sick .
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Post by Admin on Jun 23, 2023 0:04:38 GMT -5
Rob Newman letter to friends June 202320 June 2023 Update Greetings– We intended to get weekly updates posted here in this folder, so our apologies since this hasn’t always happened – we’ve just been fully occupied with travel, visits and communications. Glad to say our friends who are psychologists, clinical social workers and professional counselors who have made themselves available to assist in finding help, now have their website up and active: dev.resourcesforhealing.org/home We appreciate the care and help represented by their efforts and sacrifice to reach out and make themselves available. We have also been reaching out to known victims to see if there are ways we can help them receive therapy, if needed. We invite any victims to be in touch. In the last couple weeks we have worked at addressing some new CSA allegations that have been brought to our attention. All of these have been asked to not attend any meetings until risk is assessed and appropriate measures are taken: Gilbert Smith, an allegation from when he was in the work about 20 years ago was sent to us, he is going through the professional risk evaluation process, as mentioned in the Child Safe Policy document (here in this folder, and sent out to everyone a few weeks ago). Rodney Loera, several allegations from 30-40 years ago when he was in the work in Mexico and Central America have come to light, he also is beginning the risk evaluation process with a professional. Manny Delacruz, there have been some behavioral questions and his testimony at Casa Grande convention raised alarms and precipitated a CSA report by a concerned person. Language and misunderstanding have been an added complication. All of his children (a daughter and three sons) are focusing on helping Manny strictly address issues while they await the CSA report outcome. Joe Schoen, two allegations have recently surfaced from some 20 years ago when he was in the work, he is beginning the risk evaluation process. Through the past little while we have felt His help and presence near and some scriptures have become more real and meaningful. Maybe we can share a couple here: Nahum 1 - this whole chapter tells of God taking vengeance, even mentioning Him being furious. We know that nothing at all escapes His knowing, and everything is within His power: woe be us if we feel we can hide anything from Him. In His own time and way He does cleanse His kingdom, on many levels. Problems do happen, but an important test of our faith is whether we will follow Jesus in how we react and respond to problems. Nahum 1:3 “... the Lord has His way in the whirlwind and the storm”-- it is amazing how God is working purposefully and carefully in what we may perceive as ‘chaos.’ May our faith make it possible for Him to include us in the solution that honors Him. Also Nahum 1:7 “... He knoweth them that trust in Him.” It’s wonderful when we honor Him by trusting His plan and timing. The resurrection belongs to Him– the power that does the glorious when there seems to be no hope. 1Corinthians 1:19-31 - especially v23, God’s way is a stumblingblock and foolishness to the logic and reason of men– how Jesus got the victory through the crucifixion. As He said in Matthew 18, humility is crucial– we honor God by being quiet within, asking Him to show us His way, and allowing Him to give us the grace to walk with Him in His way– then, v31, the glory goes to the Lord where it belongs. As we cling to the Rock, the stability and peace of the Rock becomes ours and we reflect the same precious peace to the world around us. In closing, we want to again thank all of you who have selflessly helped us with the current issues, decisions and needs. We also thank all of you for your care and prayers, knowing our Father is watching over all things. With care, Rob and helpers
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Post by Admin on Jun 23, 2023 0:17:02 GMT -5
Jim Holt and Ray Hoffman letters of apology
From: NC/VA/MD/DE Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2023 8:00:30 PM To: NC/VA/MD/DE Subject: Letters from Jim and Ray
Dear Friends,
I will share the attached letter from Ray which I wholeheartedly agree with. We are very sorry for the pain, sorrow and misunderstanding that victims of Child Sexual Abuse have faced, and we want to do what we can to help them. As Ray mentions they are planning to have some open dialogue with friends in different areas, and we will try to do the same. We are still working on some of the details about where and when we will have them.
Your brother, Jim
————————————————–
Dear Friends,
It seems best to me to just speak from my heart in this letter.
We all have been distressed by the recent disclosures of criminal and immoral offenses by our fellow workers and also friends. I acknowledge that our ignorance and lack of education and awareness on CSA has allowed perpetrators to continue to victimize innocent children among us. And we condemn this. Victims have suffered more because of our lacks and I deeply apologize for this. I am deeply sorry for the betrayal of trust that has caused many to doubt the integrity of the ministry and those in positions of responsibility.
More recently we have become much more aware of the various aspects of CSA, the lifelong damage to the victims, the ways of the perpetrator etc., and we are so thankful for those who are helping us to become more educated.
The CSA victims are 100% innocent in every case. They have been made to feel guilty and ashamed, when actually the opposite is true. We have failed to meet the victim’s great need for understanding, compassion, and care. I have a deep respect for the victims among us. They have fought and are fighting a lifelong battle, and in many cases, without the understanding of workers, friends and sometimes even family members. They have been deprived of enjoying the fellowship among us, and even their fellowship with God could be affected. Through this many have endured the suffering and continue plodding on. We so much admire them.
Going forward we want to be open to have dialogue with our friends who would like to talk about this troubling issue amongst us. So we will make a plan for each field for workers to visit to have some open dialogue, likely bringing two or three meetings together for this opportunity. We hope to have brother and sister workers present, and a moderator or facilitator to guide the discussion, coming from one of the friends in the area that is respected for their wisdom. Attendance would be on a volunteer basis. More details will be forthcoming as far as when.
We are a forward moving people, keeping our eternal goal in mind. The Master is purging His family and we know He wants us to care for the victims. We want to be willing for this purging and remain on the Vine so the fruit of His efforts could come forth to make us more ready for our Bridegroom’s return. We want to be part of the solution not part of the problem, as we have been in the past.
Your brother,
Ray
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Post by deadawake on Jun 23, 2023 4:22:17 GMT -5
The actual fact is that being tempted as a worker by natural human impulses like the desires for consensual intimacy and companionship, for becoming parents and building a family' for having their own home and space, for material possessions and so on does not cause a person to become a sexual predator. Sexual preditors are born from mental illness. If they were not born that way then they a created through maladaption to life's experiences and traumas in a way that distorts their thinking in pervers ways. They were predators before they went in the work whether they acted on their urges or not prior to going in the work. I have wondered the same things! I have also felt that many workers, especially the sister workers seem oppressed, rather than joyous. There are those that can be happily celibate and give up all the usual things married people have. In fact, many of the things married people have end up being a burden, such as debt and the list can be long there; accumulation of 'stuff'. Many people would be happy to simplify. But, the workers have to be around all that like you say. I would not want to spend all my time in someone else's home; I just wouldn't, depending on the type of home it is, of course. If it had a peaceful atmosphere, I might not want to leave! But anyhow, getting off track here. You take men and women and put them on a farm at preps for 3 weeks and some of them might be hornier than hell, and what do you expect? I think that needs to be looked at. It has always been an honor system with the friends just trusting the workers. It's always been an honor system with the friends trusting the workers with the money they are given, too. But now you have it out in the open that two overseers have been living less than honorable. This is a big blow. But I think it's going to cause a paradigm shift and a healthy change. Yes, there will be friends who just want things to get back to normal....they are the complacent ones. But there is likely going to be a new normal. A professing lady once said to me, "Some of these brother workers are like sitting ducks."
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Post by getreal on Jun 23, 2023 11:17:38 GMT -5
The actual fact is that being tempted as a worker by natural human impulses like the desires for consensual intimacy and companionship, for becoming parents and building a family' for having their own home and space, for material possessions and so on does not cause a person to become a sexual predator. Sexual preditors are born from mental illness. If they were not born that way then they a created through maladaption to life's experiences and traumas in a way that distorts their thinking in pervers ways. They were predators before they went in the work whether they acted on their urges or not prior to going in the work. You quote actual facts? Just curious. Do you have expertise in this area or are you reporting from what you have read from experts? I guess you are opening up the whole nurture/nature debate? From my reading and learning psychopathy is still in large part a mystery in terms of the cause. The lack of empathy etc. Experiences can alter our brains, which can lead to behaviors. It seems very multi factorial. But sure some predators are maybe born, but do all act on these impulses or do some circumstances provide enough stress and also opportunity that they become active. I wonder how many of these mainly male workers could have lived a normal life if they hadn’t gone into the extreme circumstances of the work. How do you unravel all the causes and effects and make definitive statements about them? I just know from my years in the work I saw a lot of signs and symptoms of mental illness amongst the workers, friends too, but a lot of workers. We called it accentricities, but in hind sight it was maladaptive behavior. Also lots of medical issues, depression, inability to sleep, stress, moodiness, odd habits, taken together paints a picture.
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Post by snow on Jun 23, 2023 14:08:27 GMT -5
Jim Holt and Ray Hoffman letters of apologyFrom: NC/VA/MD/DE Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2023 8:00:30 PM To: NC/VA/MD/DE Subject: Letters from Jim and Ray Dear Friends, I will share the attached letter from Ray which I wholeheartedly agree with. We are very sorry for the pain, sorrow and misunderstanding that victims of Child Sexual Abuse have faced, and we want to do what we can to help them. As Ray mentions they are planning to have some open dialogue with friends in different areas, and we will try to do the same. We are still working on some of the details about where and when we will have them. Your brother, Jim ————————————————– Dear Friends, It seems best to me to just speak from my heart in this letter. We all have been distressed by the recent disclosures of criminal and immoral offenses by our fellow workers and also friends. I acknowledge that our ignorance and lack of education and awareness on CSA has allowed perpetrators to continue to victimize innocent children among us. And we condemn this. Victims have suffered more because of our lacks and I deeply apologize for this. I am deeply sorry for the betrayal of trust that has caused many to doubt the integrity of the ministry and those in positions of responsibility. More recently we have become much more aware of the various aspects of CSA, the lifelong damage to the victims, the ways of the perpetrator etc., and we are so thankful for those who are helping us to become more educated. The CSA victims are 100% innocent in every case. They have been made to feel guilty and ashamed, when actually the opposite is true. We have failed to meet the victim’s great need for understanding, compassion, and care. I have a deep respect for the victims among us. They have fought and are fighting a lifelong battle, and in many cases, without the understanding of workers, friends and sometimes even family members. They have been deprived of enjoying the fellowship among us, and even their fellowship with God could be affected. Through this many have endured the suffering and continue plodding on. We so much admire them. Going forward we want to be open to have dialogue with our friends who would like to talk about this troubling issue amongst us. So we will make a plan for each field for workers to visit to have some open dialogue, likely bringing two or three meetings together for this opportunity. We hope to have brother and sister workers present, and a moderator or facilitator to guide the discussion, coming from one of the friends in the area that is respected for their wisdom. Attendance would be on a volunteer basis. More details will be forthcoming as far as when. We are a forward moving people, keeping our eternal goal in mind. The Master is purging His family and we know He wants us to care for the victims. We want to be willing for this purging and remain on the Vine so the fruit of His efforts could come forth to make us more ready for our Bridegroom’s return. We want to be part of the solution not part of the problem, as we have been in the past. Your brother, Ray How could anyone not know that it's wrong to hide workers that have sexually abused a child? This reads to me more like 'I am so sorry we got caught and now we have to act like we didn't know and we have to apologize'. I think I'm getting so sick of these apology letters that always have to include how 'they didn't know it had an impact on children' and 'we didn't know it was wrong'.
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Post by fixit on Jun 23, 2023 14:15:06 GMT -5
Jim Holt and Ray Hoffman letters of apologyFrom: NC/VA/MD/DE Sent: Sunday, June 18, 2023 8:00:30 PM To: NC/VA/MD/DE Subject: Letters from Jim and Ray Dear Friends, I will share the attached letter from Ray which I wholeheartedly agree with. We are very sorry for the pain, sorrow and misunderstanding that victims of Child Sexual Abuse have faced, and we want to do what we can to help them. As Ray mentions they are planning to have some open dialogue with friends in different areas, and we will try to do the same. We are still working on some of the details about where and when we will have them. Your brother, Jim ————————————————– Dear Friends, It seems best to me to just speak from my heart in this letter. We all have been distressed by the recent disclosures of criminal and immoral offenses by our fellow workers and also friends. I acknowledge that our ignorance and lack of education and awareness on CSA has allowed perpetrators to continue to victimize innocent children among us. And we condemn this. Victims have suffered more because of our lacks and I deeply apologize for this. I am deeply sorry for the betrayal of trust that has caused many to doubt the integrity of the ministry and those in positions of responsibility. More recently we have become much more aware of the various aspects of CSA, the lifelong damage to the victims, the ways of the perpetrator etc., and we are so thankful for those who are helping us to become more educated. The CSA victims are 100% innocent in every case. They have been made to feel guilty and ashamed, when actually the opposite is true. We have failed to meet the victim’s great need for understanding, compassion, and care. I have a deep respect for the victims among us. They have fought and are fighting a lifelong battle, and in many cases, without the understanding of workers, friends and sometimes even family members. They have been deprived of enjoying the fellowship among us, and even their fellowship with God could be affected. Through this many have endured the suffering and continue plodding on. We so much admire them. Going forward we want to be open to have dialogue with our friends who would like to talk about this troubling issue amongst us. So we will make a plan for each field for workers to visit to have some open dialogue, likely bringing two or three meetings together for this opportunity. We hope to have brother and sister workers present, and a moderator or facilitator to guide the discussion, coming from one of the friends in the area that is respected for their wisdom. Attendance would be on a volunteer basis. More details will be forthcoming as far as when. We are a forward moving people, keeping our eternal goal in mind. The Master is purging His family and we know He wants us to care for the victims. We want to be willing for this purging and remain on the Vine so the fruit of His efforts could come forth to make us more ready for our Bridegroom’s return. We want to be part of the solution not part of the problem, as we have been in the past. Your brother, Ray How could anyone not know that it's wrong to hide workers that have sexually abused a child? This reads to me more like 'I am so sorry we got caught and now we have to act like we didn't know and we have to apologize'. I think I'm getting so sick of these apology letters that always have to include how 'they didn't know it had an impact on children' and 'we didn't know it was wrong'. Ray Hoffman had a great opportunity 25 years ago to learn about CSA: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/letters-to-friends-and-workers/ray-hoffman/
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Post by snow on Jun 23, 2023 15:46:26 GMT -5
How could anyone not know that it's wrong to hide workers that have sexually abused a child? This reads to me more like 'I am so sorry we got caught and now we have to act like we didn't know and we have to apologize'. I think I'm getting so sick of these apology letters that always have to include how 'they didn't know it had an impact on children' and 'we didn't know it was wrong'. Ray Hoffman had a great opportunity 25 years ago to learn about CSA: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/letters-to-friends-and-workers/ray-hoffman/Good point. Wings has been around for a long time, letters have been sent to overseers. There is no way they didn't know. You don't move workers around after being approached by a parent about CSA, not told the new area of the allegations etc., if you know they haven't done nothing wrong.
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Post by bigtrax on Jun 23, 2023 17:39:03 GMT -5
Two quotes "In the last couple weeks we have worked at addressing some new CSA allegations that have been brought to our attention" "We all have been distressed by the recent disclosures of criminal and immoral offenses by our fellow workers and also friends"
So we the readers are supposed to just accept the implication by Rob & Ray that these "allegations" and "disclosures" came to them as a sort of thief in the night? I hope the authorities peel back this wicked layer and prosecute those that failed to act and hid these horrific crimes. To not have the moral conscience to do that on their own is disturbing.
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Post by Admin on Jun 25, 2023 18:39:52 GMT -5
Milford Townhall with Ray Hoffman
Jun 25 Townhall meeting in Milford
Setting the scene
90 minute discussion, about 50 people in attendance, 7 workers arranged in a big oval. Ray Hoffman and Barry Barkley were two of the workers in attendance. The discussion started with a hymn.
Discussion
The first person that spoke was Barry. He stated an apology and that they were there to listen and learn.
Someone spoke next about their professional experience with children that have been a victim of abuse. Explained that it often takes years for a child to come forward and that statistically they only mention it once. This is part of why it is so important to believe victims when they come forward. The speaker expressed concern that when instances of abuse are brought to light that nothing is reported to authorities and perpetrators are simply shuffled to another field. They then told a story about a rape victim that they only discovered because the victim began to self mutilate. The rapist was a known offender moved into that field, and there were other victims after they were moved. The speaker asked for reassurance that the decision makers would make good decisions for everyone. (This request was not responded to by the workers)
The next person to speak said that the only way any of these perpetrators have a chance with God is to be in jail where they can’t hurt anyone. Where they have time to think and repent.
The next person said that they were glad the workers were at this town hall tending to the flock. They told stories of generations of sexual abuse in the family from perpetrators within and outside of meeting. They said we need to understand the difference between legal and moral and that the legal aspect of this would catch up to the ministry. They asked a rhetorical question: “where is the scripture that supports covering up? David’s sin was not covered up.” They ended by saying there is hope.
a brother worker responded with “the more informed we are the more we can move forward.” He explained that the CSA stuff was new to them and that MinistrySafe has been a real eye-opener.
Someone spoke in response to this worker that “no adult needs a course, book, or instructor to tell them that rape and child molestation is bad”
The next person to speak stated that they wanted reassurance that all allegations would be reported and people in the area be informed.
The moderator tried to bring the mic to Ray Hoffman to respond to this and Ray motioned the mic away and did not respond.
the next person said “how can we know children will be safe” (at meetings, conventions, etc.)
A brother worker responded with “that’s a hard question to answer but parents need to be aware of where their children are and who they are with. It’s a red flag if they are separated.”
Someone responded to this saying that this implies that parents of victims are to blame for not watching their children like a hawk and that guilt should be placed on the parents. The perpetrator is 100% responsible in every case. They then shared their own experience as a victim of CSA and explained how their parents knew exactly where they were but had entrusted them in someone’s care that ended up taking advantage of them.
Someone else responded to this by saying that it’s definitely partially on parents but parents know this and they know to watch out for their kids. The lack of communication is a big part of the issue. People are not told about perpetrators when they are transferred to their area. They also noted that the only information about this topic is from a website run by people who no longer go to meeting. They also called out the cover ups and victim shaming
A few people made demands for a public blacklist of perpetrators to keep people more informed and aware. Workers seemed to be open to that but no verbal confirmation from them.
Someone mentioned that Ray's name was brought up in a few posts about coverups and that people were calling on him to step down.
Ray zeroed in on one report. He painted a picture of the reporter being untrustworthy. He said “I’m not aware of anything I’ve been involved with with CSA. If people can prove that I knowingly moved a perpetrator to another field I will happily step down, I will happily step down, I will go to jail, I’m not afraid of jail. I don’t think it would be wise to step down off the suggestion of one person.”
Someone responded to Ray by saying “on the behalf of all victims, believe victims”
A question was asked how we as families can keep the ministry safe. The interpretation of the question was “how can we make sure there aren’t perpetrators in the ministry”
A sister worker responded with referencing the MinistrySafe course again and being informed.
Someone suggested that some kind of group is created of sister workers and mothers to be a resource for victims. If something were to happen to someone they would know of a safe group of people they could take their case to.
Someone asked why overseers travel alone and that maybe if they didn’t travel alone, they couldn’t lure people into their hotel room.
Ray responded to this by saying that that is a great suggestion and that he fears traveling alone. That he doesn’t like it when his name shows up alone on a list. (doesn’t he make the list?)
It was stated many times throughout that there needs to be better communication and we need to be able to trust that the workers will inform us immediately and those people need to be removed from meeting, special meetings, and conventions. That there is no grey area in waiting for the law to deal with it.
Ray responded to this by saying that they have notified known perpetrators that they are no longer welcome. If anyone shows up they will be escorted off the premises. He encouraged people to come forward with any cases or allegations and even things that just seem like red flags.
Someone responded agreeing and that it is important to put out the fires when they’re small.
Someone had a follow up of “what is the biblical justification for overseers?”
Ray referenced James as an overseer and that James had the last word. He also said that someone has to make the plans and organize. He then said that he used to be Catholic and he definitely won’t be going back to that and that he didn’t like the hierarchy.
The person who asked said “there is a hierarchy of the friends, elders, sister workers, brother workers, older workers, and overseers.”
Ray said that it’s important to have overseers who are led by God and to manage, otherwise every worker would just be doing what they think is right. (Pointing to the sisters workers) he says the sister workers are submissive in their place and are happy to be. Maybe you would like to speak on that? (Motioning for a sister worker to speak)
The sister worker described her relationship with their coworker as a marriage and that she feels her older companion is in a lot of ways in service to her.
A brother worker shared his testimony and love for being a worker and serving the friends. He said that he has respect for the overseers he’s been led by and that they’ve (the overseers he’s been under, not all overseers) always had the kingdom's best interest at heart.
Someone shared that we are like a family and that being abused by someone in this way is not like being abused by someone from outside. Paraphrasing: There is a different level of trust/betrayal
Someone spoke on the importance of talking about everything and coming together in unity and focusing on serving God.
Someone responded to the workers defending the hierarchy saying that they weren’t trying to poke holes in anything and that they love this way. That their trust hasn’t been broken by the workers in general by those in power, the overseers. They said that there needs to be reflection and accountability there.
The discussion ended by Ray saying “we’re sorry and thank you”
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Post by margaret on Jun 26, 2023 0:05:41 GMT -5
Where the hell does it say that James was an overseer? Jeez Louise! What’s Ray Hoffmans email? I want to ask him a few questions
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2023 0:17:43 GMT -5
Where the hell does it say that James was an overseer? Jeez Louise! What’s Ray Hoffmans email? I want to ask him a few questions Outside scripture, James was the leader of the Christians in Jerusalem. It wouldn't be a great leap to consider him an early "overseer" = "leader". James was also the first book of the NT to be written roughly 44AD or close. Probably cause he was indeed the "Leader" and brother of Christ.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 26, 2023 1:19:47 GMT -5
Where the hell does it say that James was an overseer? Jeez Louise! What’s Ray Hoffmans email? I want to ask him a few questions Outside scripture, James was the leader of the Christians in Jerusalem. It wouldn't be a great leap to consider him an early "overseer" = "leader". James was also the first book of the NT to be written roughly 44AD or close. Probably cause he was indeed the "Leader" and brother of Christ. Next they'll be calling the disciples workers, and talking about Jesus professing at 12!
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Post by guest8 on Jun 26, 2023 1:28:32 GMT -5
I may be missing something here....How does Jesus profess at 12 yrs to be a Christian when he is meant to be Christ himself?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2023 1:31:50 GMT -5
Outside scripture, James was the leader of the Christians in Jerusalem. It wouldn't be a great leap to consider him an early "overseer" = "leader". James was also the first book of the NT to be written roughly 44AD or close. Probably cause he was indeed the "Leader" and brother of Christ. Next they'll be calling the disciples workers, and talking about Jesus professing at 12! The term you need would be equivalence or comparative or similar... Something doesn't need to actually be a donkey drawn cart to understand it would be called a transportation method like a car today, right? Fundamentalism would say they are not...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2023 1:33:36 GMT -5
I may be missing something here....How does Jesus profess at 12 yrs to be a Christian when he is meant to be Christ himself? That wouldn't be the correct understanding of the verse. He's about his fathers business at 12 figure out what that means, and you may be on to something...
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Post by guest8 on Jun 26, 2023 1:37:35 GMT -5
I may be missing something here....How does Jesus profess at 12 yrs to be a Christian when he is meant to be Christ himself? That wouldn't be the correct understanding of the verse. He's about his fathers business at 12 figure out what that means, and you may be on to something... oh yes, his fathers business. Onto something alright. Father = God. Once again why I don't believe in Trinity. But I don't lose any sleep over this debate.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2023 1:44:37 GMT -5
That wouldn't be the correct understanding of the verse. He's about his fathers business at 12 figure out what that means, and you may be on to something... oh yes, his fathers business. Onto something alright. Father = God. Once again why I don't believe in Trinity. But I don't lose any sleep over this debate. Not sure I mentioned the trinity or did I?
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Post by guest8 on Jun 26, 2023 1:48:27 GMT -5
oh yes, his fathers business. Onto something alright. Father = God. Once again why I don't believe in Trinity. But I don't lose any sleep over this debate. Not sure I mentioned the trinity or did I? I did not state you did. I did, because it was in context to my understanding of the verse.
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