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Post by learner on Sept 7, 2023 4:54:01 GMT -5
What is wrong with these people? i work for large organisations that are under public scrutiny often. There is no way a top leader would survive trying to pass off the excuse that ‘they didn’t know’. They set the culture for an oragnaisation. I’ve even worked in education - and often heard the Principal telling children that we are a ‘telling school’. There is nothing that we must keep to ourselves. Top leadership set the tone and culture where it is ok to tell bad news, or to whistle blow.
Step aside now, all overseers. What is the scripture? Matthew 18:6 (NIV) “If anyone causes one of these little ones--those who believe in me--to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. Luke 17:2 (NIV) It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.
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Post by Admin on Sept 7, 2023 23:26:39 GMT -5
Perry Pearson (Dakotas) now resting September 7, 2023
Letter from Perry Pearson
Dear friends in the Dakotas,
I have not been sleeping well this summer. Various remedies thus far have not resolved the problem. I will be taking a rest to address this matter. I will be staying with my family in Wl to rest. For any immediate needs, please reach out to Paul Haakenson or any of the Dakota workers.
A brother, Perry
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Post by snow on Sept 8, 2023 13:37:17 GMT -5
Perry Pearson (Dakotas) now restingSeptember 7, 2023 Letter from Perry Pearson Dear friends in the Dakotas, I have not been sleeping well this summer. Various remedies thus far have not resolved the problem. I will be taking a rest to address this matter. I will be staying with my family in Wl to rest. For any immediate needs, please reach out to Paul Haakenson or any of the Dakota workers. A brother, Perry I imagine quite a few workers aren't 'sleeping well this summer'. Rob Newman is also resting and is in a hospital program to help him forget all the issues and help him sleep better. In hospital programs aren't cheap, and it looks like they have the money to help him forget all the ugly things he's done to survivors but no money to help survivors who likely haven't slept well since their abuse that these workers decided was okay to enable. I feel more empathy for the workers that did nothing wrong but have to deal with this as the clean up crew. But I hope that Shultz, Barkley, Hoffman, and many other CSA enablers aren't sleeping well. I wouldn't either if I'd done what they have done.
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Post by fixit on Sept 8, 2023 14:38:09 GMT -5
Perry Pearson (Dakotas) now restingSeptember 7, 2023 Letter from Perry Pearson Dear friends in the Dakotas, I have not been sleeping well this summer. Various remedies thus far have not resolved the problem. I will be taking a rest to address this matter. I will be staying with my family in Wl to rest. For any immediate needs, please reach out to Paul Haakenson or any of the Dakota workers. A brother, Perry I imagine quite a few workers aren't 'sleeping well this summer'. Rob Newman is also resting and is in a hospital program to help him forget all the issues and help him sleep better. In hospital programs aren't cheap, and it looks like they have the money to help him forget all the ugly things he's done to survivors but no money to help survivors who likely haven't slept well since their abuse that these workers decided was okay to enable. I feel more empathy for the workers that did nothing wrong but have to deal with this as the clean up crew. But I hope that Shultz, Barkley, Hoffman, and many other CSA enablers aren't sleeping well. I wouldn't either if I'd done what they have done. Those workers who have taught that they must be obeyed even when they are wrong and you have some deep conviction before God should be taking responsibility for the mess they have created.
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Post by Pragmatic on Sept 8, 2023 20:12:39 GMT -5
I imagine quite a few workers aren't 'sleeping well this summer'. Rob Newman is also resting and is in a hospital program to help him forget all the issues and help him sleep better. In hospital programs aren't cheap, and it looks like they have the money to help him forget all the ugly things he's done to survivors but no money to help survivors who likely haven't slept well since their abuse that these workers decided was okay to enable. I feel more empathy for the workers that did nothing wrong but have to deal with this as the clean up crew. But I hope that Shultz, Barkley, Hoffman, and many other CSA enablers aren't sleeping well. I wouldn't either if I'd done what they have done. Those workers who have taught that they must be obeyed even when they are wrong and you have some deep conviction before God should be taking responsibility for the mess they have created. They won't, just as Turkey never vote for Thanksgiving in the US
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Post by snow on Sept 9, 2023 12:44:05 GMT -5
They won't, just as Turkey never vote for Thanksgiving in the US The fact that they won't take responsibility and are trying to make it all go away just infuriates me. It really shows where they are morally. Enabling abusers is a crime. There is work behind the scenes to get them prosecuted for what they have done, but it's a long process and they aren't likely going to get more than a slap on the wrist. I find that disgusting but reality.
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Post by Annan on Sept 9, 2023 14:53:52 GMT -5
They won't, just as Turkey never vote for Thanksgiving in the US The fact that they won't take responsibility and are trying to make it all go away just infuriates me. It really shows where they are morally. Enabling abusers is a crime. There is work behind the scenes to get them prosecuted for what they have done, but it's a long process and they aren't likely going to get more than a slap on the wrist. I find that disgusting but reality. Wouldn't it be nice if believers woke up and refused to house/accommodate and financially fund the workers? Then we'd see how fast things would change.
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Post by passingby on Sept 10, 2023 12:08:27 GMT -5
Simpleton was a dreamer or better still fake. He's been banned from this and other boards. He makes it up as he goes including his transition site for workers wanting to leave the work which was posted and called a scam on here the other day. Fair assessment, but it doesn’t takeaway from the parts where they were right. Maybe their conspiracy theories took away from the meat but there are some very valid structure points there. Reply I agree with "... doesn’t takeaway from the parts where they were right..." Reminds me too of the worker who, trying to extend some hope and grace toward Dean Bruer said something to the effect 'but remember all the good things he did...' Would you then Luke2236, be one who supports that approach with Dean? For the record, I would. I've found that approach (remember/find/magnify the good) is often effective to a: bring someone voluntarily to their better angels b: have them realize the harm/wrong they've done, and perhaps even be willing to do what they can about it.
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Post by snow on Sept 10, 2023 14:49:50 GMT -5
The fact that they won't take responsibility and are trying to make it all go away just infuriates me. It really shows where they are morally. Enabling abusers is a crime. There is work behind the scenes to get them prosecuted for what they have done, but it's a long process and they aren't likely going to get more than a slap on the wrist. I find that disgusting but reality. Wouldn't it be nice if believers woke up and refused to house/accommodate and financially fund the workers? Then we'd see how fast things would change. That's basically all it would take to change things. So simple. But when you are of a mindset that it's a sin to judge, and you're afraid of being excommunicated and going to hell, it becomes complex and not likely to ever change for those kind of people. I am hoping that the majority of the friends do understand that supporting the workers that have allegations, either for enabling or outright abusing, needs to be cut off.
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Post by passingby on Sept 10, 2023 14:53:05 GMT -5
Going forward - anyone who hasn't seen the movie SPOTLIGHT needs to. True story of the Boston Globe's investigative reporting team and its campaign in 2001 to uncover widespread, systemic child abuse by Catholic Priests in Massachusetts. The abuse was indeed systemic, and the abuse and coverups went back decades, and to the highest levels. The Two-Twos are currently having their own similar uncovering. We should not be surprised - the catholic system and the two-by-two system bear many similarities. The Two-by-Two ministry will most likely continue as it does. It will insist on following its non-biblical stance on celibacy for ministers. It will continue to go the way of the Catholic Church. It will continue to create a culture of secrecy that tolerates and even protects pedophiles. The ministry tolerating abuse means it is also tolerated - and conducted - by elders and lay members. I know that many current workers and overseers mean well, and will attempt to "clean house", BUT THEIR EFFORTS WILL NOT WORK unless the celibacy requirement is changed. I post this here for posterity. Reply " BUT THEIR EFFORTS WILL NOT WORK unless the celibacy requirement is changed." Well, that certainly is not true.... And a shockingly naive "quick fix" solution, conclusion. Just for example, within the last 2 months in my area a youth pastor, married, with two little kids, just got convicted of CSA with a 14 yr old through 16 yrs old girl, plus another just 13, - and those were just the due process convictions, not to mention all the other "me too" accusations that came forward during the trial, and since. The problem with the response to CSA of the Catholics, the 2x2's, and frankly an awful LOT if not ALL of Christians and Christian groups is that they ALL feel they answer to a higher power than anything man's justice could possibly dream up, - and even more so, in matters of the heart, spirit, and soul, they are (and have) the moral high ground authority. It is shocking how Christians "solution" is more and more turning (and resigning) to the legal systems to get some sort of satisfaction, with no mention of God in any of it.
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Post by snow on Sept 10, 2023 15:12:11 GMT -5
Going forward - anyone who hasn't seen the movie SPOTLIGHT needs to. True story of the Boston Globe's investigative reporting team and its campaign in 2001 to uncover widespread, systemic child abuse by Catholic Priests in Massachusetts. The abuse was indeed systemic, and the abuse and coverups went back decades, and to the highest levels. The Two-Twos are currently having their own similar uncovering. We should not be surprised - the catholic system and the two-by-two system bear many similarities. The Two-by-Two ministry will most likely continue as it does. It will insist on following its non-biblical stance on celibacy for ministers. It will continue to go the way of the Catholic Church. It will continue to create a culture of secrecy that tolerates and even protects pedophiles. The ministry tolerating abuse means it is also tolerated - and conducted - by elders and lay members. I know that many current workers and overseers mean well, and will attempt to "clean house", BUT THEIR EFFORTS WILL NOT WORK unless the celibacy requirement is changed. I post this here for posterity. Reply " BUT THEIR EFFORTS WILL NOT WORK unless the celibacy requirement is changed." Well, that certainly is not true.... And a shockingly naive "quick fix" solution, conclusion. Just for example, within the last 2 months in my area a youth pastor, married, with two little kids, just got convicted of CSA with 14 yr old through 16 yrs old, plus another just 13, - and those were just the due process convictions, not to mention all the other "me too" accusations that came forward during the trial, and since. The problem with the response to CSA of the Catholics, the 2x2's, and frankly an awful LOT if not ALL of Christians and Christian groups is that they ALL feel they answer to a higher power than anything man's justice could possibly dream up, - and even more so, in matters of the heart, spirit, and soul, they are (and have) the moral high ground authority. It is shocking how Christians "solution" is more and more turning (and resigning) to the legal systems to get some sort of satisfaction, with no mention of God in any of it. CSA and SA are acts of power and lots of sexually active people commit them.
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Post by margaret on Sept 17, 2023 12:50:47 GMT -5
Replicating WWJD (what would Jesus do?) is being spiritually led, unless one contends that Jesus himself was not spiritually led. Problem is that people are human and often let their own thoughts override the spiritually correct thing to do.
The trouble perhaps is creating our own thoughts, thinking they’re in line with God’s thoughts.
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Post by Dan on Sept 19, 2023 23:03:03 GMT -5
Replicating WWJD (what would Jesus do?) is being spiritually led, unless one contends that Jesus himself was not spiritually led. Problem is that people are human and often let their own thoughts override the spiritually correct thing to do.
The trouble perhaps is creating our own thoughts, thinking they’re in line with God’s thoughts.
Yes, that was my point... The Spirit doesn't push, it leads, and that requires a willing follower. Not everyone submits, whereby their own thoughts and intentions lead them to their own reality. That's an obstacle that often takes us down the wrong path. The biggest battle any of us will face can generally be found in the nearest mirror. "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would" (Galatians 5:17). Our own wills, desires, and goals often over-ride the Spirit to serve the flesh, usually resulting in sin.
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Post by snow on Oct 1, 2023 13:26:28 GMT -5
I asked permission to share this from the fb Advocates for Truth page. It was a supper visit with Scott Rauscher and John Siems. It absolutely horrified me. I am so angry right now and it takes a lot to get me to this level of anger. Siems stated several times as you will read, that Dean Bruer should have been more careful to wipe his laptop better. Anyway here it is :
Posted with Permission from Lyle Benjamin. He posted this on CCF yesterday. Scott Rauscher and John Siems had supper with us Thursday night. Here is a summary I wrote about the visit: We have a long ways to go with Scott Rauscher. We visited after supper for about an hour. I mostly asked open ended questions to see where they were at on things. -He is serious about forgiveness, and seems to see no difference in severity of sin. -He is adamant that we do not need CSA policy, and feels he has the support of his staff in that. God’s direction is enough for him. -He feels that if we had policy, people would just ignore it, or go around it. -He didn’t have a good answer for the question: if Gods direction is sufficient, why did these things happen over and over and were covered up? He mostly just said some people weren’t following Gods’ direction. -He feels people shouldn’t talk about what perps have done- it is defamation of character in his book. I am usually optimistic, but I dont see a lot of chance for his thoughts to evolve. —————————————— The real topper to tonight’s discussion was John Siems. He said “Dean wouldn’t have been caught if he had been smarter about keeping his computer cleaned off” John said this several times in a few different ways within the conversation about Dean. It was not a single statement that could be misunderstood. For what it’s worth. ——————————————- Was John being dismissive? Or was he pointing out that none of the rest of this would have surfaced if Dean had kept his computer clean? It was a little of both, and I think a desire that Dean had kept his computer clean so that this hard situation could have been neatly avoided. John may have been awkwardly trying to say “You wouldn’t be mad about this if you didn’t know about it” Which is not any better really. It does clearly point to the willingness, even the desire of the ministry to cover things up. Remember- this is the statement of an older, senior worker sitting beside his overseer… who did not correct him or object in any way. This may as well be unwritten policy given the circumstance. John didn’t go out of his way to condemn Dean’s sexual actions and other abuses. He focused on Dean being irresponsible by leaving evidence. At least that was the tenor of what I (and my wife) heard. He really wants the last 6 months to just go away, so that things can go back to normal. It was the most bizarre conversation I have heard in awhile…. And I wore a badge for over a decade. My open ended questions worked… Scott and John told us what was on their minds…. For better or worse. Scott demanded proof for my assertions of Corfield’s allegations. It wasn’t enough that Corfield admitted to two victims. Both men cast doubts on the integrity of the investigators- Matt Smith in particular. The thing is… Matt has nothing to gain from what he (and others) are doing. None of the investigators do. Scott, and John and many others have everything to lose by acknowledging the facts. When you are guilty, attack the system and the accuser’s integrity. When you are innocent, point to the facts, let the system work. Matt has been very careful to follow the facts and only the facts. I trust him, and the process he has gone through. John said: “I don’t care if he was a Navy Commander, I don’t trust him” I parse that to mean he doesn’t trust Matt to listen to the workers, and be obedient. He doesn’t trust Matt to overlook facts that are inconvenient to the perogatives of the ministry. This is the overview of the conversation we had, with my observations included. I also asked about Corfield’s status. Scott told me he is not in the ministry. I pushed back on that, telling him friends had recently been getting calls from Robert checking details of their current address. He admitted then that Robert is “helping him with lists”. I asked why someone else couldn’t do the list work. Scott told us he “is too busy to take that extra work, and Robbert had been doing it for years”. I pointed out that Scott has others on his staff- several younger workers that could do the work of the lists, and it would be good for them to have the responsibility and experience. Scott replied that “Robert knows where all the halls are for special meetings and knows who to contact, so it is not easy for a younger person to take that over- Robert has been doing this for many years. Robert knows things the rest of us, even me don’t know.” -Apparently Scott is unaware that the elders in each area also know where the halls are, and who to contact about renting them. Long story short, Robert is being kept in the loop, is actively part of the day to day operations, and Scott sees no problem with that. He also has no plan or intention of turning those executive secretary tasks over to anyone else. So- Robert not being in the work is only true in as much as he doesn’t have a field or companion. He is still on staff without portfolio.
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Post by fixit on Oct 1, 2023 19:30:19 GMT -5
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Post by SharonArnold on Oct 4, 2023 16:54:14 GMT -5
I asked permission to share this from the fb Advocates for Truth page. It was a supper visit with Scott Rauscher and John Siems. It absolutely horrified me. I am so angry right now and it takes a lot to get me to this level of anger. Siems stated several times as you will read, that Dean Bruer should have been more careful to wipe his laptop better. Anyway here it is : <<..."Dean wouldn’t have been caught if he had been smarter about keeping his computer cleaned off”...>> This is a very revealing account of many of the men in 2X2 leadership positions these days. It reveals their lack of belief in an all-knowing, all-seeing God who demands accountability from every individual. It reveals their lack of concern for God's littlest ones. It also reveals their protectiveness of the nice little gig/scam they have going on that somehow satisfies their need for power and for personal gratification.. I thought they would have been smarter by now than to show themselves this openly. But obviously not. I can't say that I felt any anger in reading this - just sadness and resignation. I feel compassion for the many good and decent and honorable people who find themselves caught up in this. I have confidence that they will find the courage to confront for themselves what (not long ago) would have been unthinkable. It may not always be easy, but they will find their way. Perhaps (somehow) they can force change and accountability within the system. Perhaps not.
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Post by snow on Oct 4, 2023 17:39:39 GMT -5
I asked permission to share this from the fb Advocates for Truth page. It was a supper visit with Scott Rauscher and John Siems. It absolutely horrified me. I am so angry right now and it takes a lot to get me to this level of anger. Siems stated several times as you will read, that Dean Bruer should have been more careful to wipe his laptop better. Anyway here it is : <<..."Dean wouldn’t have been caught if he had been smarter about keeping his computer cleaned off”...>> This is a very revealing account of many of the men in 2X2 leadership positions these days. It reveals their lack of belief in an all-knowing, all-seeing God who demands accountability from every individual. It reveals their lack of concern for God's littlest ones. It also reveals their protectiveness of the nice little gig/scam they have going on that somehow satisfies their need for power and for personal gratification.. I thought they would have been smarter by now than to show themselves this openly. But obviously not. I can't say that I felt any anger in reading this - just sadness and resignation. I feel compassion for the many good and decent and honorable people who find themselves caught up in this. I have confidence that they will find the courage to confront for themselves what (not long ago) would have been unthinkable. It may not always be easy, but they will find their way. Perhaps (somehow) they can force change and accountability within the system. Perhaps not. I agree that sadness and resignation are also there for me. I feel for the workers and friends that have to deal with this from high up workers that should know better and be protecting instead of feeling sorry for themselves about being found out.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 10, 2023 18:00:16 GMT -5
This is a very revealing account of many of the men in 2X2 leadership positions these days. It reveals their lack of belief in an all-knowing, all-seeing God who demands accountability from every individual. It reveals their lack of concern for God's littlest ones. It also reveals their protectiveness of the nice little gig/scam they have going on that somehow satisfies their need for power and for personal gratification.. I thought they would have been smarter by now than to show themselves this openly. But obviously not. I can't say that I felt any anger in reading this - just sadness and resignation. I feel compassion for the many good and decent and honorable people who find themselves caught up in this. I have confidence that they will find the courage to confront for themselves what (not long ago) would have been unthinkable. It may not always be easy, but they will find their way. Perhaps (somehow) they can force change and accountability within the system. Perhaps not. I agree that sadness and resignation are also there for me. I feel for the workers and friends that have to deal with this from high up workers that should know better and be protecting instead of feeling sorry for themselves about being found out. I agree with you. The hope for reforming this state of affairs would actually entail a dismantling of some of the basic tenets of their belief system, and that could not come without an actual revolt -- the authoritarian depending membership would have none of it because it is their only sense of security.
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Post by Admin on Nov 23, 2023 6:29:16 GMT -5
Jared Snyder leaves the work and meetingsNovember 16, 2023 I’m sorry for the length of this when everyone is already weary from a lot of reading. TLDR version: I’m not going to be a worker or come to meetings anymore. www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoco1CQ7qU0&ab_channel=PaperHorsesTo all, I am sending this to let everyone know that I don’t intend to continue being in the work or to keep attending meetings. In making this decision I have no desire to do harm to anyone’s faith in God and Jesus, only to take my life out of the hands of overseers and place it entirely in God’s hands. I am not campaigning for people to leave the church but I fully support the ones who have and it is dead wrong to refer to them as “lost out”, being a part of the “falling away” or any of the other categories that they are often lightly thrown into when their decision was not made lightly. The church must take hold of its liberty in Christ and learn how to operate independently from the overseers before it can ever be healthy. It sounds so inadequate to say, but I want to say thank you to Sheri Autrey, Lauren Rohs, and Cynthia Liles. I know hardly a fraction of what they have done over the past eight months and more, trying to help a church that refuses to help itself. There is no end to what could be written, but many other exit letters have already said it far better than I could. Instead, I will paste some things that I have already written in emails to the NC/VA/MD/DE workers and some notes from things I said in NC and VA listening sessions. Your friend and brother, Jared Snyder June 3, 2023 email to NC/VA/MD/DE workers:“I think some of us have gotten too self-righteous about “not reading stuff on the internet” because it’s “not good feeding ground” and it has rendered us clueless in the current situation. The Bible itself gives a n unblinking, realistic account of some horrible things, including the failings of God’s own people. We all need to be aware simultaneously of what is going on and discussions that are happening so that we can face reality together. The cluelessness that I’m trying to call out is something I have been guilty of for a long time. I have “not gotten it” in every way there is to “not get it”, but there’s no need to stay that way.” “Who is really happy and healthy among us, or do we feel we have to act that way, and that everyone else should too? I had a horrific nervous breakdown several years ago, simply from being a worker and trying to do what workers do and I often worry about the daily misery that my co-workers, especially the young ones, might be experiencing for reasons they can’t sort out. But there’s never time to really stop and think without the pounding drum of the next upcoming worker duty overtaking your thoughts. For many it has been far worse:” “Eli’s sons were so despicable that the people abhorred the offering of the Lord. We should also acknowledge God’s displeasure that many have been robbed of the ability to enjoy fellowship among us. We have lived to the drumbeat of the gospel meeting, special meeting, convention routine for so long that we are hypnotized. We can’t tear ourselves away from this religious routine long enough to get together and address a very obvious crisis as the family that we supposedly are.” June 5, 2023 email to NC/VA/MD/DE workers:Are any of us interested in having a discussion about how we’ll communicate with our young families about keeping their children safe at convention this year? Hodgie Holgerson molested a child in Hawaii before eventually moving to Virginia. We didn’t know this but it was whispered about among our friends for years that “something happened” with a hushed fearfulness that they might be gossiping or too judgmental. Hodgie has been attending Virginia conventions for years and using his beekeeping hobby to groom and gain access to children. There is now another allegation, from more recent years, that has surfaced since the one that prompted our letter. This game of “who can be the most spiritual” can be a dangerous one when we can’t say what we know or feel for fear of being considered not spiritual enough. If being spiritual means never getting upset about anything, ever, then I have started to lose the game badly. When Jesus was turning over tables there was probably someone reminding him that it was a house of prayer and to calm down. (Written before Ron Thomke spoke this very thing at Downings this year) This is the Lord’s war with Amalek in OUR generation, why is it so upsetting that some want to blot out his remembrance from under heaven, instead of sparing him for another generation? It is hard to give yourself to evangelism when you’re unsure of how a vulnerable new babe might be treated, or what old and dead traditions might be thrust on them, like a yoke that neither we nor our fathers were able to bear. The next time there is a septic problem during a convention I’ll remind everyone that God is on the throne, to not let their heart be troubled, and assure them that I’m going to go pray about it. If it’s really bad we’ll call in the help of the older brothers, who apparently have more access to the Holy Spirit than the rest of us, based on what we’re hearing back from some. If I live another twenty or thirty years, I look forward to the benefits of this extra dispensation. Can anyone offer a starting point for coming together and having conversations and considering questions that are not the least bit new among our friends, who open their homes to us? Jun 24, 2023 Holly Springs, NC listening sessionJared shared that he felt that this was an initially slow and personal process that began for him when the information was shared about Dean Brue r and became more intense with the news of more overseers having to step aside due to allegations. He felt very much that the Lord is purging His ministry and this began for him a process of self examination and then opening himself to God’s examination that He would reveal if there was anyone he had not listened to or not been there for in their time of need. More broadly, we should be asking, as a ministry, who have we failed and what can we do for them?” July 11, 2023 Huntersville, NC listening sessionIf I love someone’s soul, I want them to believe in Jesus. If they believe in Jesus, that will get them to heaven and eternal life. They don’t have to believe in a homeless, celibate, 2 x2 ministry. They just need to believe in Jesus. God knows who and where people are. God can keep them alive and feed them. That’s the kind of servant I want to be, to feed that faith. I don’t know what my future will look like, but that’s what faith is, isn’t it? Does it require more faith to do the same thing you’ve always done, or to do what you’ve never done before when God is asking for it? Aug 3, 2023 Bolivia, NC listening sessionI also think about realizing the experience of a survivor of abuse and how we have failed to understand the long term trauma they experience. We’ve had a goal of getting people in meetings, but now I can understand why they couldn’t bring themselves to come to meeting. Jeremiah 6: 4-16 NIV “They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. ‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace. Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush.” I feel like this is something we have done. People who have been wounded in the worst kind of way, just had their wound not taken seriously and we do need to feel ashamed of that. I wish I could take a walk back through my 21 years in the work and change things I may have said or thought about people who stopped coming to meetings in the past. As these meetings have been going on, things have been changing and one thing I have been thinking about recently is there is a strong possibility of a split and people pulling back from coming to meetings. That is not a choice that anyone is making lightly and it is quite agonizing for them. Aug 8, 2023 Fredericksburg, VA listening sessionCollectively we have not entered this process of repentance as a ministry. The reaction of some will be “I haven’t done anything.” Ask God what HAVE I done? Who have I harmed? Experience of a victim: not just what was done but years later processing, speaking up but not being believed, seeing nothing done to the offender, can’t go to meeting so others say they “lost out” or have gotten offended. This is an agonizing struggle. So we’ve all done harm at times by not understanding people and what they’ve gone through. At recent sessions it has been pointed out that we ask, who is being brought into the fellowship? But should we be asking how many have we driven away? We’ve driven many away. So what does God want? God has given no guarantee that this ministry will continue like it is, but He and His Son will be there. Also there’s no guarantee what this fellowship will be. But put your faith in Him. Referring to ourselves as the “kingdom” – it’s actually whoever is serving the king. Who’s submitted to the king. Can we say that we are the only ones on the earth that are right while all of this is going on? Seems foolish. The Lord knows who are his. Shameful that we have said our form is the truth, not Jesus. God has been very merciful to us as a people. Makes you wonder what he wants next. Maybe interact with others in our community who are also trying to be Christians. Sept 2023 Greensboro, NC conventionI want to add my witness to Greg’s [Greg Swenson], I have also had visits with people who have decided to stop coming to meetings for the time being and they are not losing out or falling away from God. A friend that I grew up with testified in court about a criminal act of abuse done to a child by an elder that she witnessed and the overseer made it known that she was not to be in meeting if she testified – that overseer is still in the work, and where does that leave her? It goes beyond that. We have brothers and sisters in Christ that have a relationship with God, believe in Jesus, are born again, are seeking to be led by the Holy Spirit, and will inherit eternal life who have never met or heard a worker. They don’t know this ministry or fellowship exists and they are alive to God. Something we need to chew on. Why aren’t we having fellowship with those people. Note: Jared Snyder and Greg Swenson are two brother workers in North Carolina who took a 'leave of absence' after the NC/VA conventions this year and began traveling around US listening to/supporting others. The NC/VA/MD/DE workers' list shows a blank by both their names – no field, no explanation, just phone and address.
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Post by Dan on Nov 23, 2023 7:13:28 GMT -5
Jared Snyder leaves the work and meetingsNovember 16, 2023 I’m sorry for the length of this when everyone is already weary from a lot of reading. TLDR version: I’m not going to be a worker or come to meetings anymore. www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoco1CQ7qU0&ab_channel=PaperHorsesTo all, I am sending this to let everyone know that I don’t intend to continue being in the work or to keep attending meetings. In making this decision I have no desire to do harm to anyone’s faith in God and Jesus, only to take my life out of the hands of overseers and place it entirely in God’s hands. I am not campaigning for people to leave the church but I fully support the ones who have and it is dead wrong to refer to them as “lost out”, being a part of the “falling away” or any of the other categories that they are often lightly thrown into when their decision was not made lightly. The church must take hold of its liberty in Christ and learn how to operate independently from the overseers before it can ever be healthy. It sounds so inadequate to say, but I want to say thank you to Sheri Autrey, Lauren Rohs, and Cynthia Liles. I know hardly a fraction of what they have done over the past eight months and more, trying to help a church that refuses to help itself. There is no end to what could be written, but many other exit letters have already said it far better than I could. Instead, I will paste some things that I have already written in emails to the NC/VA/MD/DE workers and some notes from things I said in NC and VA listening sessions. Your friend and brother, Jared Snyder June 3, 2023 email to NC/VA/MD/DE workers:“I think some of us have gotten too self-righteous about “not reading stuff on the internet” because it’s “not good feeding ground” and it has rendered us clueless in the current situation. The Bible itself gives a n unblinking, realistic account of some horrible things, including the failings of God’s own people. We all need to be aware simultaneously of what is going on and discussions that are happening so that we can face reality together. The cluelessness that I’m trying to call out is something I have been guilty of for a long time. I have “not gotten it” in every way there is to “not get it”, but there’s no need to stay that way.” “Who is really happy and healthy among us, or do we feel we have to act that way, and that everyone else should too? I had a horrific nervous breakdown several years ago, simply from being a worker and trying to do what workers do and I often worry about the daily misery that my co-workers, especially the young ones, might be experiencing for reasons they can’t sort out. But there’s never time to really stop and think without the pounding drum of the next upcoming worker duty overtaking your thoughts. For many it has been far worse:” “Eli’s sons were so despicable that the people abhorred the offering of the Lord. We should also acknowledge God’s displeasure that many have been robbed of the ability to enjoy fellowship among us. We have lived to the drumbeat of the gospel meeting, special meeting, convention routine for so long that we are hypnotized. We can’t tear ourselves away from this religious routine long enough to get together and address a very obvious crisis as the family that we supposedly are.” June 5, 2023 email to NC/VA/MD/DE workers:Are any of us interested in having a discussion about how we’ll communicate with our young families about keeping their children safe at convention this year? Hodgie Holgerson molested a child in Hawaii before eventually moving to Virginia. We didn’t know this but it was whispered about among our friends for years that “something happened” with a hushed fearfulness that they might be gossiping or too judgmental. Hodgie has been attending Virginia conventions for years and using his beekeeping hobby to groom and gain access to children. There is now another allegation, from more recent years, that has surfaced since the one that prompted our letter. This game of “who can be the most spiritual” can be a dangerous one when we can’t say what we know or feel for fear of being considered not spiritual enough. If being spiritual means never getting upset about anything, ever, then I have started to lose the game badly. When Jesus was turning over tables there was probably someone reminding him that it was a house of prayer and to calm down. (Written before Ron Thomke spoke this very thing at Downings this year) This is the Lord’s war with Amalek in OUR generation, why is it so upsetting that some want to blot out his remembrance from under heaven, instead of sparing him for another generation? It is hard to give yourself to evangelism when you’re unsure of how a vulnerable new babe might be treated, or what old and dead traditions might be thrust on them, like a yoke that neither we nor our fathers were able to bear. The next time there is a septic problem during a convention I’ll remind everyone that God is on the throne, to not let their heart be troubled, and assure them that I’m going to go pray about it. If it’s really bad we’ll call in the help of the older brothers, who apparently have more access to the Holy Spirit than the rest of us, based on what we’re hearing back from some. If I live another twenty or thirty years, I look forward to the benefits of this extra dispensation. Can anyone offer a starting point for coming together and having conversations and considering questions that are not the least bit new among our friends, who open their homes to us? Jun 24, 2023 Holly Springs, NC listening sessionJared shared that he felt that this was an initially slow and personal process that began for him when the information was shared about Dean Brue r and became more intense with the news of more overseers having to step aside due to allegations. He felt very much that the Lord is purging His ministry and this began for him a process of self examination and then opening himself to God’s examination that He would reveal if there was anyone he had not listened to or not been there for in their time of need. More broadly, we should be asking, as a ministry, who have we failed and what can we do for them?” July 11, 2023 Huntersville, NC listening sessionIf I love someone’s soul, I want them to believe in Jesus. If they believe in Jesus, that will get them to heaven and eternal life. They don’t have to believe in a homeless, celibate, 2 x2 ministry. They just need to believe in Jesus. God knows who and where people are. God can keep them alive and feed them. That’s the kind of servant I want to be, to feed that faith. I don’t know what my future will look like, but that’s what faith is, isn’t it? Does it require more faith to do the same thing you’ve always done, or to do what you’ve never done before when God is asking for it? Aug 3, 2023 Bolivia, NC listening sessionI also think about realizing the experience of a survivor of abuse and how we have failed to understand the long term trauma they experience. We’ve had a goal of getting people in meetings, but now I can understand why they couldn’t bring themselves to come to meeting. Jeremiah 6: 4-16 NIV “They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. ‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace. Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct? No, they have no shame at all; they do not even know how to blush.” I feel like this is something we have done. People who have been wounded in the worst kind of way, just had their wound not taken seriously and we do need to feel ashamed of that. I wish I could take a walk back through my 21 years in the work and change things I may have said or thought about people who stopped coming to meetings in the past. As these meetings have been going on, things have been changing and one thing I have been thinking about recently is there is a strong possibility of a split and people pulling back from coming to meetings. That is not a choice that anyone is making lightly and it is quite agonizing for them. Aug 8, 2023 Fredericksburg, VA listening sessionCollectively we have not entered this process of repentance as a ministry. The reaction of some will be “I haven’t done anything.” Ask God what HAVE I done? Who have I harmed? Experience of a victim: not just what was done but years later processing, speaking up but not being believed, seeing nothing done to the offender, can’t go to meeting so others say they “lost out” or have gotten offended. This is an agonizing struggle. So we’ve all done harm at times by not understanding people and what they’ve gone through. At recent sessions it has been pointed out that we ask, who is being brought into the fellowship? But should we be asking how many have we driven away? We’ve driven many away. So what does God want? God has given no guarantee that this ministry will continue like it is, but He and His Son will be there. Also there’s no guarantee what this fellowship will be. But put your faith in Him. Referring to ourselves as the “kingdom” – it’s actually whoever is serving the king. Who’s submitted to the king. Can we say that we are the only ones on the earth that are right while all of this is going on? Seems foolish. The Lord knows who are his. Shameful that we have said our form is the truth, not Jesus. God has been very merciful to us as a people. Makes you wonder what he wants next. Maybe interact with others in our community who are also trying to be Christians. Sept 2023 Greensboro, NC conventionI want to add my witness to Greg’s [Greg Swenson], I have also had visits with people who have decided to stop coming to meetings for the time being and they are not losing out or falling away from God. A friend that I grew up with testified in court about a criminal act of abuse done to a child by an elder that she witnessed and the overseer made it known that she was not to be in meeting if she testified – that overseer is still in the work, and where does that leave her? It goes beyond that. We have brothers and sisters in Christ that have a relationship with God, believe in Jesus, are born again, are seeking to be led by the Holy Spirit, and will inherit eternal life who have never met or heard a worker. They don’t know this ministry or fellowship exists and they are alive to God. Something we need to chew on. Why aren’t we having fellowship with those people. Note: Jared Snyder and Greg Swenson are two brother workers in North Carolina who took a 'leave of absence' after the NC/VA conventions this year and began traveling around US listening to/supporting others. The NC/VA/MD/DE workers' list shows a blank by both their names – no field, no explanation, just phone and address.
It seems that several Workers are getting it now, no excuses or passing the buck. The remarks above seem genuine and sincere, inward reflection instead of outward projection. I sense a different attitude from some earlier remarks, hopefully an important step in mending the way forward. I especially appreciated; "They don’t have to believe in a homeless, celibate, 2 x2 ministry. They just need to believe in Jesus". Never thought I'd hear a Worker say that!
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Post by snow on Nov 24, 2023 16:18:36 GMT -5
Overseers that have put zero tolerance policy have actually gotten a letter from a 'circle of friends' in Australia pretty much demanding that he stop with the zero tolerance policy he has in place. So even when the workers do the right thing there still is a faction of the friends that don't want there to be policies to stop predators from being in their midst. It's mind blowing to realize that people like this exist, but of course they do. Here is the link to read that letter. wingsfortruth.info/2023/11/23/australian-overseer-pressured-to-drop-zero-tolerance-policy/
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