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Post by openingact34 on Apr 30, 2023 13:51:58 GMT -5
I actually agree with you Verna, in fact I think conspiracy theories that are impossible to prove actually cause people with real points to lose their credibility. The part of the general money laundering argument that is accurate is the 2x2 setup is considered mafia style laundering even if it’s considered a “miracle or the way” and not an intentional crime. If the 2x2lowercase way wanted to stop illegal activity, they would do it by setting up a legal church structure where money is tracked, salaries and benefits are made known, taxes on salaries and benefits are paid, and victims have a way to sue so they can fight coverup of SA and CSA instead of feel like they can do nothing. Rest assured the monies in the Way are under a scope . At present we will not see that part . However here’s hoping that they have billions FOR THE VICTIMS ONE OF FIRST THING DOYLE STATED WAS SETTING UP FUNDS FOR VICTIMS AND SURVIVORS BOTH IN CSA/SA . We brought that forward last year to a law firm in Calgary , whom are willing to assist us . So yep live up to your words DOYLE S !!!!!!!!!!! I can give an estimate of what my parents put out !!! A HUGE CHUNK ! So we can hold his feet to the fire ! Jus sayin . Heading back to silence . It is helping my mental health . He wrote those words and will have to answer . But we are still focusing on finding and helping VICTIMS and getting them professional help . Written words cannot be taken back ! He never should have spoke those words . Stay tuned . Aaaahhhh outta here again . To be honest this week has drained me , physically , emotionally , mentally and verbal damage on this site !! You know who the f you are . Take tips from Jonathan if he is a worker ! The smart overseers are probably getting legal advice to set up these funds to limit the damage. The goal will be to lure naïve victims into a low-ball settlement offer where they sign away their right to sue. This is old data, but in the first 20 years of the Catholic abuse scandal, the average settlement was about $500,000 per victim before legal fees. On the high end, they had to pay $7-8 million per victim. www.bishop-accountability.org/settlements/ |
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 30, 2023 15:08:32 GMT -5
Instead of preparing for the Sunday owning meeting, and having bread to share, he is on TMB....says a bit about him! I can’t attend, thanks to Covid. You currently have Covid? Or are there Covid policies in place restricting your attendance? |
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Post by Pragmatic on Apr 30, 2023 15:13:55 GMT -5
Instead of preparing for the Sunday owning meeting, and having bread to share, he is on TMB....says a bit about him! I can’t attend, thanks to Covid. You currently have Covid? Or are there Covid policies in place restricting your attendance? The latter. I am vaxed, boosted, bi-valent boosted, and had Covid last year. Our elder has it. |
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 30, 2023 19:08:06 GMT -5
Here is a quote from Lyle Schober regarding Dean. Thoughts? “As members of this ministry, we want to assure you of how much we love and care for you. We are heartbroken by the disgrace of human failure, but our faith in the Lord’s ministry is unchanged. This is the ministry that our Lord established in the earth. Human failure can compromise its testimony, but it cannot undermine its validity. Judas Iscariot was also a part of this ministry, but in the wake of his betrayal the Holy Spirit still impelled this same ministry forward.” wingsfortruth.info/2023/03/30/lyle-schober-letter-to-texas-friends-march-2023/Yeah. When I first read that I thought: Hmmmm. He felt the need to defend the ministry? At a time like this, which I get. I have said from the get go that just because one worker is a sex offender, doesn't mean they all are. And this can create doubts about the ministry, when you have several cases turning up all at once. But I felt a bit dismayed. He seems to be more concerned about the testimony of the ministry than about the victims. That's my impression and I don't know if it's a fair impression as I don't know the man. |
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 30, 2023 19:18:56 GMT -5
I believe I can answer this question: Not talking about finances is a point of doctrine...only false churches take a collection, tithe, or ask for offerings. Openly discussing finances is seen as "organization", and the truth must not be an "organized religion". The reality is there is a very strict hierarchical structure, it just cannot be seen to exist. On a related note there is a common doctrine that the truth is the Kingdom of God, and kingdoms are by nature a hierarchy. This plays into no one questioning anything. It says none of that in the Bible. All of that came from the man who formed this sect and others over the last hundred years. None of that is doctrine or scripturally based. All of these hidden rules came from man. The entirety of the 2x2 structure is hidden from it's members and everything about the sect goes into ensuring that. The phrases used that have major meaning manipulate the thoughts and actions of those involved ensuring their absolute control. They don't even report rapes or pedophilia. Why are things so hidden? The money goes somewhere, where does it go, who does it go to, who controls it? Something hidden this much cannot be good. The higher up one goes in the 2x2s the less chance you have of being a good person and doing the right thing. That's why those in positions of power/control don't report crimes no matter how vicious or vile. They are instructed not to, it's standard procedure worldwide. Which shows there is structure, there is policy, there is a standard and uniformed way to deal with things such as rape and pedophilia. Which also means that it has happened enough to create a worldwide standard procedure in handling such things. So the problem are not new. They have money to immediately move the perpetrators of these horrible crimes yet they do NOT have any money for the victims? Hmm why is there only money for the perpetrators? Those who have been victims of their crimes such as Chinese whispers should not have to find or get help on their own. It should be standard procedure to help the victims but it is not. The standard procedure when dealing with the victims is to shame them and if they push the issue they ex communicate them. The reason why things are hidden is to protect the ones higher up. It is based very much like the Free Masons ie: the higher up you go the more you learn that is never was about God. It is about Greed, Power, Control over everyone below you. Good things are not hidden. Yeppers they excommunicated my a$$ at 13 . I was not believed and put out . My offender was free to carry on . He is one lucky man because my dad went hunting for him with his gun . Straight UP My parents spent thousands of dollars on my therapy . I am still in therapy and will probably be the rest of my life . |
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 30, 2023 19:36:10 GMT -5
Here is a quote from Lyle Schober regarding Dean. Thoughts? “As members of this ministry, we want to assure you of how much we love and care for you. We are heartbroken by the disgrace of human failure, but our faith in the Lord’s ministry is unchanged. This is the ministry that our Lord established in the earth. Human failure can compromise its testimony, but it cannot undermine its validity. Judas Iscariot was also a part of this ministry, but in the wake of his betrayal the Holy Spirit still impelled this same ministry forward.” wingsfortruth.info/2023/03/30/lyle-schober-letter-to-texas-friends-march-2023/Yeah. When I first read that I thought: Hmmmm. He felt the need to defend the ministry? At a time like this, which I get. I have said from the get go that just because one worker is a sex offender, doesn't mean they all are. And this can create doubts about the ministry, when you have several cases turning up all at once. But I felt a bit dismayed. He seems to be more concerned about the testimony of the ministry than about the victims. That's my impression and I don't know if it's a fair impression as I don't know the man. I know the man he is very kind. I believe he is just convicted that his primary purpose in life is to be an apostle. And it’s clear that he believes souls (aka, people will leave meeting) will be lost as a result of a head apostle being a wolf in sheep’s clothing. This is the saddest part! If he is convicted to this degree imagine how his followers feel? He must be right because what is his selfish motive? To be a homeless preacher? So sad. Missing out on so much over bad theology, especially since there is so much evidence the whole thing was started by a man (which they always preached about other churches) |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2023 23:12:12 GMT -5
I believe I can answer this question: Not talking about finances is a point of doctrine...only false churches take a collection, tithe, or ask for offerings. Openly discussing finances is seen as "organization", and the truth must not be an "organized religion". The reality is there is a very strict hierarchical structure, it just cannot be seen to exist. On a related note there is a common doctrine that the truth is the Kingdom of God, and kingdoms are by nature a hierarchy. This plays into no one questioning anything. It says none of that in the Bible. All of that came from the man who formed this sect and others over the last hundred years. None of that is doctrine or scripturally based. All of these hidden rules came from man. The entirety of the 2x2 structure is hidden from it's members and everything about the sect goes into ensuring that. The phrases used that have major meaning manipulate the thoughts and actions of those involved ensuring their absolute control. They don't even report rapes or pedophilia. Why are things so hidden? The money goes somewhere, where does it go, who does it go to, who controls it? Something hidden this much cannot be good. The higher up one goes in the 2x2s the less chance you have of being a good person and doing the right thing. That's why those in positions of power/control don't report crimes no matter how vicious or vile. They are instructed not to, it's standard procedure worldwide. Which shows there is structure, there is policy, there is a standard and uniformed way to deal with things such as rape and pedophilia. Which also means that it has happened enough to create a worldwide standard procedure in handling such things. So the problem are not new. They have money to immediately move the perpetrators of these horrible crimes yet they do NOT have any money for the victims? Hmm why is there only money for the perpetrators? Those who have been victims of their crimes such as Chinese whispers should not have to find or get help on their own. It should be standard procedure to help the victims but it is not. The standard procedure when dealing with the victims is to shame them and if they push the issue they ex communicate them. The reason why things are hidden is to protect the ones higher up. It is based very much like the Free Masons ie: the higher up you go the more you learn that is never was about God. It is about Greed, Power, Control over everyone below you. Good things are not hidden. There are some verses in scripture that do suggest doing things quietly and behind the scenes...that probably shouldn't be the case for somethings obviously... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2023 23:14:28 GMT -5
Here is a quote from Lyle Schober regarding Dean. Thoughts? “As members of this ministry, we want to assure you of how much we love and care for you. We are heartbroken by the disgrace of human failure, but our faith in the Lord’s ministry is unchanged. This is the ministry that our Lord established in the earth. Human failure can compromise its testimony, but it cannot undermine its validity. Judas Iscariot was also a part of this ministry, but in the wake of his betrayal the Holy Spirit still impelled this same ministry forward.” wingsfortruth.info/2023/03/30/lyle-schober-letter-to-texas-friends-march-2023/Yeah. When I first read that I thought: Hmmmm. He felt the need to defend the ministry? At a time like this, which I get. I have said from the get go that just because one worker is a sex offender, doesn't mean they all are. And this can create doubts about the ministry, when you have several cases turning up all at once. But I felt a bit dismayed. He seems to be more concerned about the testimony of the ministry than about the victims. That's my impression and I don't know if it's a fair impression as I don't know the man. Well, some reassurances at this time would be good, and several ideas should be presented to solve what has happened. |
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Post by chuck on Apr 30, 2023 23:33:42 GMT -5
Yeah. When I first read that I thought: Hmmmm. He felt the need to defend the ministry? At a time like this, which I get. I have said from the get go that just because one worker is a sex offender, doesn't mean they all are. And this can create doubts about the ministry, when you have several cases turning up all at once. But I felt a bit dismayed. He seems to be more concerned about the testimony of the ministry than about the victims. That's my impression and I don't know if it's a fair impression as I don't know the man. Well, some reassurances at this time would be good, and several ideas should be presented to solve what has happened. Dissolving the ministry would solve numerous problems very effectively and almost immediately. |
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Post by Pragmatic on May 1, 2023 0:15:43 GMT -5
I read Lyle's letter and to be honest, I feel a bit sorry for him. He is in between a rock and a hard place, and probably doesn't have the perspective that others have. The ministry is his life, and it is being rocked to the core.
There will be some inner conflicts, and external conflicts going on.
Most in the work want to have a ministry that is beyond reproach, but the question needs to be asked, "Why?"
Is it so that there are no victims, or is it so that the ministry can be held up as a shining and unique example? Or is it bit of both with varying ratios?
In a litigious society, he would have to be careful in his wording, and defining what help and support for the victims means.
However I keep on seeing these letters, with less being said about the victims, educating people how to treat the victims, supporting them, and more being said about the ministry, bible lessons and verses being quoted.
When victims still feel like the "friends" blame them for the downfall of so and so elder or worker, then the church's moral and social obligations have not been met, in my opinion. How would a victim feel, reading Lyle's letter?
Just my opinion on the letter, and while I think it is a start, there's a lot more to acknowledge, say and do
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 1:33:26 GMT -5
Well, some reassurances at this time would be good, and several ideas should be presented to solve what has happened. Dissolving the ministry would solve numerous problems very effectively and almost immediately. No, it wouldn't. Not all offenders are in ministry... Of the 3 pedos I know of 2 are laity and 1 ministry. |
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Post by Dan on May 1, 2023 1:40:06 GMT -5
Yeah. When I first read that I thought: Hmmmm. He felt the need to defend the ministry? At a time like this, which I get. I have said from the get go that just because one worker is a sex offender, doesn't mean they all are. And this can create doubts about the ministry, when you have several cases turning up all at once. But I felt a bit dismayed. He seems to be more concerned about the testimony of the ministry than about the victims. That's my impression and I don't know if it's a fair impression as I don't know the man. Well, some reassurances at this time would be good, and several ideas should be presented to solve what has happened.
That's what I find lacking.. Besides educating Workers with a class on how to recognize sexual abuse, I haven't seen any solutions that will stop future abuse. Its all about recognizing victims and getting them help, but no steps have been taken to put an end to it yet?
Up until now, it seems that if a person complained and a Worker denied it, the Worker was given the presumption of innocents and generally moved to a new area.
Some blame porn sites, but abuse was occurring long before cell phones and laptops, so removing access to modern devices isn't the end-all solution. Maybe going back to the old fashion flip phones where you only had voice and data (texting) available? Most Workers no longer have laptops, one of the main things they like and use cell phones for is the GPS.
When my sisters went into the work, guys would still hit on them, one even proposed marriage, so its not just Workers who have initiated or solicited unwanted advances.
Acknowledging past victims is important, but the real conundrum is what can be done to stop it. Anyone proven guilty of CSA should be thrown out automatically, no church will survive if they can't get an immediate handle on it and bring it to a screeching halt.
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Post by chuck on May 1, 2023 1:46:11 GMT -5
Dissolving the ministry would solve numerous problems very effectively and almost immediately. No, it wouldn't. Not all offenders are in ministry... Of the 3 pedos I know of 2 are laity and 1 ministry. Highly likely it would solve some of that as well. |
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Post by mountain on May 1, 2023 1:47:57 GMT -5
Dissolving the ministry would solve numerous problems very effectively and almost immediately. No, it wouldn't. Not all offenders are in ministry... Of the 3 pedos I know of 2 are laity and 1 ministry. This is why context and balance are necessary when figures are presented. More than 250+ 'perps' have been identified. Assuming most are male and most are in the States then if we 'assume' these are workers, then a high percentage of male workers in the USA are perps (how many male workers in USA?) The term 'perps' needs to be defined as well. At face value this could be understood to be mainly 'CSA' perps, but likely includes all manner of abuses and immoral (sexual) conduct? |
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Post by mountain on May 1, 2023 1:56:19 GMT -5
Well, some reassurances at this time would be good, and several ideas should be presented to solve what has happened. That's what I find lacking.. Besides educating Workers with a class on how to recognize sexual abuse, [font size="2"]I haven't seen any solutions that will stop future abuse.[/font] Its all about recognizing victims and getting them help, but no steps have been taken to put an end to it yet?
Up until now, it seems that if a person complained and a Worker denied it, the Worker was given the presumption of innocents and generally moved to a new area.
Some blame porn sites, but abuse was occurring long before cell phones and laptops, so removing access to modern devices isn't the end-all solution. Maybe going back to the old fashion flip phones where you only had voice and data (texting) available? Most Workers no longer have laptops, one of the main things they like and use cell phones for is the GPS.
When my sisters went into the work, guys would still hit on them, one even proposed marriage, so its not just Workers who have initiated or solicited unwanted advances. Acknowledging past victims is important, but the real conundrum is what can be done to stop it. Anyone proven guilty of CSA should be thrown out automatically, no church will survive if they can't get an immediate handle on it and bring it to a screeching halt.
A major part of the solution for dealing with CSA/immoral conduct etc., from the pool of workers, is to apply basic crime prevention methods. Reduce temptation and opportunity to offend. It's that simple. Workers should not be allowed to stay in the homes of unrelated children or other vulnerable persons etc. This will stop a lot of future abuse. It is simple common sense and it would work for the most part. The Sect needs to stop being the walled, insular city of Troy and at the same time wheeling in the wooden horse! The same level of address can be applied wherever potential locii are identified. This is something the workers should not need to be told to introduce. It should have come from themselves years ago, after it was recommended to be introduced with immediate effect. A lot of the time temptations are triggered by opportunity. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 2:44:54 GMT -5
No, it wouldn't. Not all offenders are in ministry... Of the 3 pedos I know of 2 are laity and 1 ministry. Highly likely it would solve some of that as well. No helpful or logical... |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 2:50:35 GMT -5
No, it wouldn't. Not all offenders are in ministry... Of the 3 pedos I know of 2 are laity and 1 ministry. This is why context and balance are necessary when figures are presented. More than 250+ 'perps' have been identified. Assuming most are male and most are in the States then if we 'assume' these are workers, then a high percentage of male workers in the USA are perps (how many male workers in USA?) The term 'perps' needs to be defined as well. At face value this could be understood to be mainly 'CSA' perps, but likely includes all manner of abuses and immoral (sexual) conduct? My understanding is 1000 to 1500 workers worldwide. Roughly 30-40% are men... So maybe 300-600 men worldwide... it's not all men doing some of this abuse either... We'd have to see this "list of 250 perps" to know what's really going on... |
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Post by chuck on May 1, 2023 3:15:24 GMT -5
Highly likely it would solve some of that as well. No helpful or logical... I suspected you couldn't sell all that you had....... Clearly disolving the Ministry would instantly solve many things....what is also clear is some people just cannot do without it.....Idolatry 101. What isn't helpful or logical is supporting something that has been flawed from the start and thinking if you just try again the result will be different this time...... You could keep going to meetings in the home so whats the problem?. |
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Post by Pragmatic on May 1, 2023 4:46:44 GMT -5
What happened with the poster waynedean64? Was that maybe an Internationalstudies alias account that he was playing a little game with?
With regard to the workers talking about these issues, it can be done in an all inclusive environment. All it needs is some education of whoever is doing the speaking or training. It is even probably best that way. Kids these days know an awful lot at a young age.
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Post by mountain on May 1, 2023 8:07:50 GMT -5
This is why context and balance are necessary when figures are presented. More than 250+ 'perps' have been identified. Assuming most are male and most are in the States then if we 'assume' these are workers, then a high percentage of male workers in the USA are perps (how many male workers in USA?) The term 'perps' needs to be defined as well. At face value this could be understood to be mainly 'CSA' perps, but likely includes all manner of abuses and immoral (sexual) conduct? My understanding is 1000 to 1500 workers worldwide. Roughly 30-40% are men... So maybe 300-600 men worldwide... it's not all men doing some of this abuse either... We'd have to see this "list of 250 perps" to know what's really going on... Yet again we have to rely on Wally to bring some interpretation to the proceedings. At max we have between 4-600 male workers worldwide. So far the bulk of the 250+ perps are believed to be in USA, Oz and NZ. Okay let's say 150 of those are living male workers? How many male workers in USA, Oz and NZ? 150 tops? That doesn't leave much wriggle room for those male workers who are not perps? Hopefully my maths is way out? This is why we need a bit of context when figures are quoted. |
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Post by luke2236 on May 1, 2023 8:14:40 GMT -5
I read Lyle's letter and to be honest, I feel a bit sorry for him. He is in between a rock and a hard place, and probably doesn't have the perspective that others have. The ministry is his life, and it is being rocked to the core. There will be some inner conflicts, and external conflicts going on. Most in the work want to have a ministry that is beyond reproach, but the question needs to be asked, "Why?" Is it so that there are no victims, or is it so that the ministry can be held up as a shining and unique example? Or is it bit of both with varying ratios? In a litigious society, he would have to be careful in his wording, and defining what help and support for the victims means. However I keep on seeing these letters, with less being said about the victims, educating people how to treat the victims, supporting them, and more being said about the ministry, bible lessons and verses being quoted. When victims still feel like the "friends" blame them for the downfall of so and so elder or worker, then the church's moral and social obligations have not been met, in my opinion. How would a victim feel, reading Lyle's letter? Just my opinion on the letter, and while I think it is a start, there's a lot more to acknowledge, say and do While I saw Lyles view point, the content of the letter made me sad, sick, angry, and anxious all at the same time. |
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Post by luke2236 on May 1, 2023 8:15:29 GMT -5
My understanding is 1000 to 1500 workers worldwide. Roughly 30-40% are men... So maybe 300-600 men worldwide... it's not all men doing some of this abuse either... We'd have to see this "list of 250 perps" to know what's really going on... Yet again we have to rely on Wally to bring some interpretation to the proceedings. At max we have between 4-600 male workers worldwide. So far the bulk of the 250+ perps are believed to be in USA, Oz and NZ. Okay let's say 150 of those are living male workers? How many male workers in USA, Oz and NZ? 150 tops? That doesn't leave much wriggle room for those male workers who are not perps? Hopefully my maths is way out? This is why we need a bit of context when figures are quoted. I’m sure there’s a bunch of elders in there. |
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Post by luke2236 on May 1, 2023 8:21:21 GMT -5
No, it wouldn't. Not all offenders are in ministry... Of the 3 pedos I know of 2 are laity and 1 ministry. This is why context and balance are necessary when figures are presented. More than 250+ 'perps' have been identified. Assuming most are male and most are in the States then if we 'assume' these are workers, then a high percentage of male workers in the USA are perps (how many male workers in USA?) The term 'perps' needs to be defined as well. At face value this could be understood to be mainly 'CSA' perps, but likely includes all manner of abuses and immoral (sexual) conduct? I would say the number would be relatively close to 250 in the US. I would be surprised if the number is higher than 400 |
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Post by mountain on May 1, 2023 8:29:29 GMT -5
Yet again we have to rely on Wally to bring some interpretation to the proceedings. At max we have between 4-600 male workers worldwide. So far the bulk of the 250+ perps are believed to be in USA, Oz and NZ. Okay let's say 150 of those are living male workers? How many male workers in USA, Oz and NZ? 150 tops? That doesn't leave much wriggle room for those male workers who are not perps? Hopefully my maths is way out? This is why we need a bit of context when figures are quoted. I’m sure there’s a bunch of elders in there. I've allowed a 40% margin to include these. |
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Post by mountain on May 1, 2023 8:32:49 GMT -5
This is why context and balance are necessary when figures are presented. More than 250+ 'perps' have been identified. Assuming most are male and most are in the States then if we 'assume' these are workers, then a high percentage of male workers in the USA are perps (how many male workers in USA?) The term 'perps' needs to be defined as well. At face value this could be understood to be mainly 'CSA' perps, but likely includes all manner of abuses and immoral (sexual) conduct? I would say the number would be relatively close to 250 in the US. I would be surprised if the number is higher than 400 That would mean just 150 max male workers for the rest of the World. Maybe the 4-600 figure is closer to the 600? Your figures give a bit more wriggle room for non perp male workers, but not a lot more. |
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Post by luke2236 on May 1, 2023 8:38:40 GMT -5
I would say the number would be relatively close to 250 in the US. I would be surprised if the number is higher than 400 That would mean just 150 max male workers for the rest of the World. Maybe the 4-600 figure is closer to the 600? Your figures give a bit more wriggle room for non perp male workers, but not a lot more. I over estimated probably. |
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 8:58:54 GMT -5
I suspected you couldn't sell all that you had....... Clearly disolving the Ministry would instantly solve many things....what is also clear is some people just cannot do without it.....Idolatry 101. What isn't helpful or logical is supporting something that has been flawed from the start and thinking if you just try again the result will be different this time...... You could keep going to meetings in the home so whats the problem?. Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! When parts of the body are missing the body won't function right or even at all, has absolutely nothing to do with idol worship. I'm sure you would be happy with that though Chuckite... |
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 1, 2023 10:18:07 GMT -5
Someone had been asking about PI and if they are being paid . Here is the answer
When we created the hotline on March 24, 2023, we did not foresee the volume of calls and what this month would bring. Sheri Autrey, Cynthia Liles, and myself are working around the clock pro bono.
Which falls into line with law firm in Calgary !
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