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Post by deepdeep on Apr 24, 2023 19:14:17 GMT -5
The 2x2 is not a large group but it doesn't seem so small that any meaningful percentage would feel implicated in the misdeeds of the few who have participated in CSA or SA. I agree with your statement that the mindset of a cult member is to protect the cult but that is also true of a participant in any system...cult or not. If you derive value from a system (or a cult) even if that system is imperfect (which it will always be), the natural response should be to repair...not to feel shame...(obviously...if you are the reason it's imperfect then by all means...feel as much shame as you can manage). This is a tricky one. How much distributed blame should people shoulder? If one has the privilege to have never been personally involved in a malignant act either as a victim or as a perpetrator...I can see it as being functional to be introspective and say "what did I do or not do to bring about this terrible event?". I can also see it as debilitating for otherwise healthy and moral people to take responsibility when they have none. If you feel responsible for climate change or church CSA or colonialism....And you are not....that can become a mental illness. Very sticky wicket. I agree that all systems are imperfect, but I don't think there is the same impact on organizations that aren't religions so they tend to not protect those in their ranks. Judeo/Christian/Islam religions, by their very definition, are supposed to be about people who hold to a higher standard than the rest of the world. They follow a God that is perfect. So there is more to defend when the people 'fall short' of these standards. Wrong or right they are held to a higher standard and they know it. So the tendency to hide these things becomes more important for the reputation of the Church. We saw it with the RCC and other denominations and now we are seeing within the 2x2's. What is surprising is that we are surprised. To address the last paragraph, if you knew it was happening and you kept silent you are responsible. I agree taking on responsibility for things you had nothing to do with is not healthy. You point out that the group is not large. So how many knew this was happening but just decided it was alright to believe the workers when they told them 'it's all under control' or 'they've got the wrong spirit' etc. When Walter was found to be guilty of advances on a child, many within the group stated he was found innocent because they never charged him. He confessed that he did it but that part gets ignored and people are willing to still defend him. He was allowed to go to Glen Valley convention with children is an example of what happens when these acts are downplayed. As far as how many knew....you probably would know better than me. The question of collective guilt is one that I'm very careful around. I'll take you at your word about this "Walter" though. I think you may be right in your assessment of Judaism/Christianity (don't have much knowledge about Islam) as it is understood and largely practiced. However, many scholars and religious thinkers view that as an an error. It seems like the very people who say they follow Christ start by moving in the completely wrong direction. I don't know how much blame to lay at the feet of everyday people who don't have the time to delve deeply into the history of the Christian tradition though. At some point...if it's a movement that will stand the test of time (and largely....that has happened) it needs to be a simple story that is understood and digested by children. I'm speaking specifically of Christianity and Judiasm...not strictly 2x2ism. From what I can tell...much of the problems that give rise to people like DB are pretty typical of the version of evangelical Christianity that has dominated the post-civil war western world.
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Dean Bruer
Apr 24, 2023 19:29:16 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by chuck on Apr 24, 2023 19:29:16 GMT -5
Let me clear up what I was attempting to say, I apologize for not being clear. Satan is the ultimate deceiver I think we can all agree on that. Satan has convinced those that make the rules in the 2x2's that covering up the rapes and CSA is the right course in order to keep the church out of the spotlight. Essentially good people find out about evil acts and because they do what they are told they do NOT ever report it. Instead the standard practice by ALL Overseers in any country is to silence the victim and do nothing but move the perpetrator of the evil act to another area where that are free to defile more innocents. Because this has been done the entire time the church has been around well over 100 years that means that it is a response that is taught far and wide to all that are higher ups in the 2x2's. History shows us that no one in church leadership has ever reported any crimes. It also goes to show that since there have been several known workers and Overseers that have spent time in jail for "not" reporting crimes that NOT reporting crimes is what they are taught and required to do. That means that the 2x2 leadership at some point made a decision to make it policy to do everything they can to cover up these evil acts. Seems to be a founding principal among the leadership to accept that. Yes it is people that do these evil acts, yes it is people that allow these evil acts to continue by not reporting it. But it is Satan and not God that has made these people adopt and accept as this their standard method of dealing with these things. He has deceived them into thinking that this is a good thing and for the betterment of the church. People do these evil things. God has nothing to do with rape, pedophelia or covering them up, those are the ways of Satans minions which are the ones that made this a standard method far and wide across the world and the annuls of time among those higher up in the church. All in all people do the crimes not Satan I understand that. However it is Satan that has put the thought to cover it up for the good of the church and make it acceptable to do such a thing once they find out. Hope that helps. Thank you for your comment, have a blessed day. No it clears up nothing. I understand that people think these things are the work of Satan. I find that bizarre and completely part of the problem/confusion. I do not believe in Satan. I do believe in human inclination (based on evolution), trauma, greed, power, ignorance and likely some psychopathy. I see no need for adding Satan into the equation unless the goal is to confuse. Satan was just a word to describe characteristics that are the opposites of the characteristics of the word LORD. The problem/confusion arrose with the insistence that Satan is an existence entity that convinces you to bad things somehow telepathically or some other way that ignores reality.... for various reason this has happened, control, power, fear, and the big one ignorance of the original people who penned the word.....
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Dean Bruer
Apr 24, 2023 19:30:13 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by verna on Apr 24, 2023 19:30:13 GMT -5
No it clears up nothing. I understand that people think these things are the work of Satan. I find that bizarre and completely part of the problem/confusion. I do not believe in Satan. I do believe in human inclination (based on evolution), trauma, greed, power, ignorance and likely some psychopathy. I see no need for adding Satan into the equation unless the goal is to confuse. Satan was just a word to describe characteristics that are the opposites of the characteristics of the word LORD. The problem/confusion arrose with the insistence that Satan is an existence entity that convinces you to bad things somehow telepathically or some other way that ignores reality.... for various reason this has happened, control, power, fear, and the big one ignorance of the original people who penned the word..... You got it!
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 24, 2023 19:35:36 GMT -5
And you're not confused??? Where to start? It's obviously a lack of encounters with a lot of other people's real life experiences.
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Post by fixit on Apr 24, 2023 19:44:11 GMT -5
No, I would be duped if I accepted your deflection and dismissal. Appreciate the caution that accompanies your posts: Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!" Thank you!😀
Saves getting into endless off topic tangents (that you preach against and denounce against) but can't stop doing so yourself. 😳🤭 So each time you 'have a little dig' at me, don't be surprised when I don't respond; understanding them in the context of "My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members."Has the potential to save both of us time engaging in pointless exchange. But keep posting and giving your righteous little digs if you wish? I see you probably genuinely feel you are in pursuit of a good cause and righteousness, as you correctly state..... You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!"👍As a senior brother worker, do you have anything useful to contribute to this subject that has caused so much distress to a lot of people?
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Dean Bruer
Apr 24, 2023 19:58:22 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by chuck on Apr 24, 2023 19:58:22 GMT -5
Satan was just a word to describe characteristics that are the opposites of the characteristics of the word LORD. The problem/confusion arrose with the insistence that Satan is an existence entity that convinces you to bad things somehow telepathically or some other way that ignores reality.... for various reason this has happened, control, power, fear, and the big one ignorance of the original people who penned the word..... You got it! It is frustrating that this ancient wisdom in scripture has been turned into existent physical literal truth of the descriptive words. Its like people in 5000 years time reading Starwars and being insistent to the point of death that it is literally true. Ironically the wisdom being carried in the story is basically the same as scripture.......
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Post by chuck on Apr 24, 2023 19:59:43 GMT -5
Appreciate the caution that accompanies your posts: Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!" Thank you!😀
Saves getting into endless off topic tangents (that you preach against and denounce against) but can't stop doing so yourself. 😳🤭 So each time you 'have a little dig' at me, don't be surprised when I don't respond; understanding them in the context of "My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members."Has the potential to save both of us time engaging in pointless exchange. But keep posting and giving your righteous little digs if you wish? I see you probably genuinely feel you are in pursuit of a good cause and righteousness, as you correctly state..... You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!"👍As a senior brother worker, do you have anything useful to contribute to this subject that has caused so much distress to a lot of people? I wonder if he is like the two internet workers who think anyone who doesn't see it like them is gonna burn in hell....
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Dean Bruer
Apr 24, 2023 20:01:21 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by chuck on Apr 24, 2023 20:01:21 GMT -5
It's obviously a lack of encounters with a lot of other people's real life experiences. It happens when you hide your light under a bushel.......
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jane
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by jane on Apr 24, 2023 20:26:40 GMT -5
As a senior brother worker, do you have anything useful to contribute to this subject that has caused so much distress to a lot of people? I am curious also. What changes, if any, do you think would be helpful? What changes are coming that we havent heard about due to lack of communication from our overseers? Do you genuinely believe it's just one or two or thee bad men or do you see there is a larger problem? I assume you are from Canada, Do you believe the Walter B situation was handled properly? I am curious to your thoughts...not just your constant bickering with others.
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Dean Bruer
Apr 24, 2023 21:38:47 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by jennyfromtheblock on Apr 24, 2023 21:38:47 GMT -5
As a senior brother worker, do you have anything useful to contribute to this subject that has caused so much distress to a lot of people? I am curious also. What changes, if any, do you think would be helpful? What changes are coming that we havent heard about due to lack of communication from our overseers? Do you genuinely believe it's just one or two or thee bad men or do you see there is a larger problem? I assume you are from Canada, Do you believe the Walter B situation was handled properly? I am curious to your thoughts...not just your constant bickering with others. And maybe for the workers that aren’t interested in changing we can direct them to this website. Apparently they’ll help you transition out of the work and into being a regular tax paying civilian workertransition.weebly.com/
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Post by Dan on Apr 24, 2023 22:16:53 GMT -5
Very true... Alcoholism = Alcoholics have a disease, not their fault they're drunk... Sex addict = raping children is an uncontrollable addiction, not a perversion... Kleptomania = is an impulse disorder, they can't help stealing... Transsexual = I think I'm female, therefore I am... Bulimia = obesity is a condition, no one over-eats and gets fat by choice.
And you're not confused???
Delirium = confusion... But you don't need to be delirious to be confused. Being confused can just be a case of being misdirected or lost. "God is not the author of confusion" (1 Corinthians 14:33).
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 25, 2023 1:04:51 GMT -5
As a senior brother worker, do you have anything useful to contribute to this subject that has caused so much distress to a lot of people? I am curious also. What changes, if any, do you think would be helpful? What changes are coming that we havent heard about due to lack of communication from our overseers? Do you genuinely believe it's just one or two or thee bad men or do you see there is a larger problem? I assume you are from Canada, Do you believe the Walter B situation was handled properly? I am curious to your thoughts...not just your constant bickering with others. Hi Jane, If you wish to have dialogue I am open to having that with you through pm. I am doing that with a number of others who have contacted me there. I find meaningful dialogue that is not realistically possible on this public forum. I find the mindset and motive of a number of poster prevents that. What you view as constant bickering I understand to be that challenging incorrect statements and baseless allegations that some make here. But I'm seeing it doesn't achieve anything, argue in circles and then progress on to their next incorrect statement and baseless allegations. Let readers discern for themselves.
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Post by fixit on Apr 25, 2023 1:30:24 GMT -5
I am curious also. What changes, if any, do you think would be helpful? What changes are coming that we havent heard about due to lack of communication from our overseers? Do you genuinely believe it's just one or two or thee bad men or do you see there is a larger problem? I assume you are from Canada, Do you believe the Walter B situation was handled properly? I am curious to your thoughts...not just your constant bickering with others. Hi Jane, If you wish to have dialogue I am open to having that with you through pm. I am doing that with a number of others who have contacted me there. I find meaningful dialogue that is not realistically possible on this public forum. I find the mindset and motive of a number of poster prevents that. What you view as constant bickering I understand to be that challenging incorrect statements and baseless allegations that some make here. But I'm seeing it doesn't achieve anything, argue in circles and then progress on to their next incorrect statement and baseless allegations. Let readers discern for themselves. Constantly referring to people's concerns as "baseless allegations" doesn't make them go away. A culture of cover-up, deflection and answering questions with non-answers is no way to gain respect.
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Post by jonathan on Apr 25, 2023 1:33:50 GMT -5
internationalstudies: I respect your preference for private dialogues. Can we all please have a private dialogue with you? But do you know how many would like this? Don't you think you could use your time better than duplicating dialogues? Simply state your answers here, in the open. If you're really convicted about them, no amount of criticism will hurt you. Jonah also was doubtful about going to Nineveh. Perhaps he too was concerned about like you said "the mindset and motive". Don't be intimidated by that! You don't have to argue. In fact, you shouldn't! 2 Timothy 2:24 The Living Bible "God’s people must not be quarrelsome; they must be gentle, patient teachers..." State your point clearly, and then leave it at that. Discuss it further if you need to, in order to "teach aptly" as the KJV says of 2 Timothy 2:34. You definitely don't have to argue your case. Some will accept what you speak, and some won't. As workers we accept that. Follow the example of Paul in Act 23:1 "And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day." He had done and said what he was supposed to, so he "lived in all good conscience". There is great liberty in truth. Power to truth!
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 25, 2023 2:00:48 GMT -5
Hi Jane, If you wish to have dialogue I am open to having that with you through pm. I am doing that with a number of others who have contacted me there. I find meaningful dialogue that is not realistically possible on this public forum. I find the mindset and motive of a number of poster prevents that. What you view as constant bickering I understand to be that challenging incorrect statements and baseless allegations that some make here. But I'm seeing it doesn't achieve anything, argue in circles and then progress on to their next incorrect statement and baseless allegations. Let readers discern for themselves. Constantly referring to people's concerns as "baseless allegations" doesn't make them go away. A culture of cover-up, deflection and answering questions with non-answers is no way to gain respect. This is Fixit's view, mindset and technique. What I see as round and round in meaningless circles. But I don't mind at all if you see him right, justified and correct and me wrong!
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 25, 2023 2:04:12 GMT -5
internationalstudies : I respect your preference for private dialogues. Can we all please have a private dialogue with you? But do you know how many would like this? Don't you think you could use your time better than duplicating dialogues? Simply state your answers here, in the open. If you're really convicted about them, no amount of criticism will hurt you. Jonah also was doubtful about going to Nineveh. Perhaps he too was concerned about like you said "the mindset and motive". Don't be intimidated by that! You don't have to argue. In fact, you shouldn't! 2 Timothy 2:24 The Living Bible "God’s people must not be quarrelsome; they must be gentle, patient teachers..." State your point clearly, and then leave it at that. Discuss it further if you need to, in order to "teach aptly" as the KJV says of 2 Timothy 2:34. You definitely don't have to argue your case. Some will accept what you speak, and some won't. As workers we accept that. Follow the example of Paul in Act 23:1 "And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men and brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day." He had done and said what he was supposed to, so he "lived in all good conscience". There is great liberty in truth. Power to truth! Thank you Jonathan. I am unmoved or unchanged by your post. I have stated my experience and what I do. But you course feel free to post yourself in the manner you are requesting me to. You will have great liberty and power in doing so.
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Post by jonathan on Apr 25, 2023 2:07:34 GMT -5
Be "easy to be intreated", brother, this is the "wisdom which is from above" James 3:17
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Post by mountain on Apr 25, 2023 3:12:55 GMT -5
I am long retired from my former capacity. I was never officially involved with workers and elders in my official capacity. My observations are based upon my professing years and what I have seen occurring elsewhere across the globe. I did experience a number of incidents (not CSA) as a friend where I came to question the actions/reactions of workers and basically found them wanting. Basically as far as the UK is concerned, CSA etc, only started to become known (mainly from USA, Oz etc,soon after the internet age started and about the time I retired, which was a few years after I stood aside from the sect. My advice/views/comments are based upon my long years in law enforcement and what official advice I would give if I had been faced with the unfolding abuse cases. I do have quite some experience in most forms of abuse in general society. Some cases of physical abuse can be as bad as and even worse than some cases of CSA. All forms of abuse should be tackled with robust measures. Diplomatic approaches may work in some minor cases (bullying etc), but if these are ineffective, strong counter measures must be implemented. In general people will get away with what they get away with. Well I find your input very valuable. I hope that by leaving the sect you were able to keep your relationship with God. I say this with love in the event that it hasn’t, and I can see why someone would feel otherwise given the setup or condemnation to every other church but the Irvine Way. Like most others, my relationship with God has fluctuated for various reasons. However, that applies to my side of the bargain. I believe I worship a merciful and understanding God who has not given up on me and continues to hold me firmly in his grasp. For this I am most thankful. He grants me wisdom when I need it and overlooks my stupidity.
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 25, 2023 3:38:40 GMT -5
Be "easy to be intreated", brother, this is the "wisdom which is from above" James 3:17 👍 I am easily intreated and inspired by truth and sincerity. There are church and non church members who post with such on TMB! Then there are church and non church members who in their posts reveal otherwise. Not easy to be intreated by them. I understand this to be discernment/wisdom from above.
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Post by mountain on Apr 25, 2023 3:38:49 GMT -5
No sticky wicket about it. It is common and right practice in the world for those in employments, groups, organisations, to make rules to combat the misdeeds of the few. The many suffer as well, but the reasons for it are seen as logical and common sense ways to protect them from suspicion as well. Most right minded people accept restrictions when they see they are necessary to protect themselves and others for the untoward behaviour of others. Right thinking workers and elders should embrace sensible governance of their domestic arrangements, etc., especially when it is seen what can and does happen in the absence of these measures. Failure to accept such reasonable controls merely exposes an unfitness for the position they hold. Hmm....well...there is a distinction between appropriate responsibility vs inappropriate responsibility. There are people within the 2x2 sect who are appropriately responsible and there are people that are not. To the extent that the rules you reference would impose burdens on those who are not appropriately responsible they are bad rules and will create consequences that are not good...often at the expense of the people that the aforementioned rules were supposed to protect. This is a fascinating discourse....lots of philosophical points of tension between individual rights, collective good, due process, personal choice, and more that I can't think of right now. I think too often, an unfortunate event causes overcorrection that creates more harm than good. Now, merely by observing that fact in the context of things like addressing racial issues or CSA tends to get peoples hackles up...."are you defending pedophiles? or are you a racist?"...I can hear the cries now. The answer is to acknowledge the tension that you deny exists...and to make a course that is as correct as you can make it while still being flexible. If I understand properly what you mean in your first paragraph, I can only conclude that what you are saying is an extremely dangerous precept. I certainly hope that you are not suggesting that when it comes to issues like CSA, physical abuse, etc., that some have responsibilities and others don't? With regards to these issues every right thinking adult has a moral and civic responsibility to show zero tolerance to these vile practices and should feel compelled to bring to the notice of appropriate bodies any instances they encounter, or to ensure that some other has done so. Responsibility belongs to us all. It is all 'appropriate!' Did the good Samaritan, in Jesus's excellent parable on the subject of compassion and love, look to himself and say 'it is inappropriate for me to take responsibility here' when he saw the robbed and beaten 'Jewish' man lying at the roadside? Did he say to himself, 'I will leave him for a priest or levite to walk by. They will take appropriate responsibility. I'm off!'
Likewise ye must cast aside these notions of inappropriate responsibility in matters such as we are discussing. You just might be the one who brings about appropriate help, when others, perhaps better placed than yourself to do so, fail to carry out their moral, civic and legal duty. In some countries and States, they have 'mandatory reporting.' This has come about due to the failings of the principles I understand you are presenting? MR compels certain classes of people to report matters of CSA etc., to the authorities, simply because people have ignored their moral and civic rights to do so. MR is an attempt to correct a failure, to force certain people to do something which should be done as a personal duty (eg the Samaritan). In the UK we do not as a rule have a system of mandatory reporting, but rely on the moral and civic aspect of reporting. The message is hammered home and is quite effective. As with any system there are and will be failings, especially in a climate where 'inappropriate responsibility' exists. If I have misunderstood your position, then I apologise. If however, I have understood you, then this idea of inappropriate responsibility should be evacuated quicker than an involuntary bowel movement, then flushed swiftly away, never to be brought to memory again!
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Post by deepdeep on Apr 25, 2023 7:22:24 GMT -5
Hmm....well...there is a distinction between appropriate responsibility vs inappropriate responsibility. There are people within the 2x2 sect who are appropriately responsible and there are people that are not. To the extent that the rules you reference would impose burdens on those who are not appropriately responsible they are bad rules and will create consequences that are not good...often at the expense of the people that the aforementioned rules were supposed to protect. This is a fascinating discourse....lots of philosophical points of tension between individual rights, collective good, due process, personal choice, and more that I can't think of right now. I think too often, an unfortunate event causes overcorrection that creates more harm than good. Now, merely by observing that fact in the context of things like addressing racial issues or CSA tends to get peoples hackles up...."are you defending pedophiles? or are you a racist?"...I can hear the cries now. The answer is to acknowledge the tension that you deny exists...and to make a course that is as correct as you can make it while still being flexible. If I understand properly what you mean in your first paragraph, I can only conclude that what you are saying is an extremely dangerous precept. I certainly hope that you are not suggesting that when it comes to issues like CSA, physical abuse, etc., that some have responsibilities and others don't? With regards to these issues every right thinking adult has a moral and civic responsibility to show zero tolerance to these vile practices and should feel compelled to bring to the notice of appropriate bodies any instances they encounter, or to ensure that some other has done so. Responsibility belongs to us all. It is all 'appropriate!' Did the good Samaritan, in Jesus's excellent parable on the subject of compassion and love, look to himself and say 'it is inappropriate for me to take responsibility here' when he saw the robbed and beaten 'Jewish' man lying at the roadside? Did he say to himself, 'I will leave him for a priest or levite to walk by. They will take appropriate responsibility. I'm off!'
Likewise ye must cast aside these notions of inappropriate responsibility in matters such as we are discussing. You just might be the one who brings about appropriate help, when others, perhaps better placed than yourself to do so, fail to carry out their moral, civic and legal duty. In some countries and States, they have 'mandatory reporting.' This has come about due to the failings of the principles I understand you are presenting? MR compels certain classes of people to report matters of CSA etc., to the authorities, simply because people have ignored their moral and civic rights to do so. MR is an attempt to correct a failure, to force certain people to do something which should be done as a personal duty (eg the Samaritan). In the UK we do not as a rule have a system of mandatory reporting, but rely on the moral and civic aspect of reporting. The message is hammered home and is quite effective. As with any system there are and will be failings, especially in a climate where 'inappropriate responsibility' exists. If I have misunderstood your position, then I apologise. If however, I have understood you, then this idea of inappropriate responsibility should be evacuated quicker than an involuntary bowel movement, then flushed swiftly away, never to be brought to memory again! No need to apologize for misunderstanding....or at least (hahaha) don't take full responsibility. After all how could I not be at least partially responsible for that. Also, thank you for the vibrant evacuation imagery (yikes!) Ok...So in the extremes...both of the concepts that you and I are discussing could be described as dangerous I suppose. To explain this, I run the risk of being malevolently misinterpreted but you don't seem to be super motivated to do that... so, here goes. I'm trying to find the line between appropriate and inappropriate responsibility. I bring this up because a lot of the discussion that has been animated in the days since the misdeeds of Dean Bruer and Mark Huddle became widely known, the question of who is responsible and what is causing this is in the background of a lot of the discourse. Some of the more, shall we say, heated exchanges seem to be between people who are coming from a position of privilege to have not come into the awareness of CSA in their faith system and those who can't believe that to be the case. For the former, they feel betrayed, shocked, disgusted, shaken, defensive etc.... For the latter, statements of incredulity at, and moral outrage against the former that do not stop at outright blaming people who "should have known better" continue to be bandied about. Undoubtedly there are people who "should have know better"....lets call them appropriately responsible. You rightly bring attention to mandatory reporters as an example of somebody who would be appropriately responsible to help bring these actions to an end...I have not yet heard the argument that would refute that. Lets use mandatory reporting requirements to try and illuminate this topic and move beyond the low-hanging fruit of obvious agreement. What would be an example of inappropriate responsibility? In the eyes of the law, there are plenty of people in this category...mandatory reporters are clearly defined, so to lay legal responsibility for not reporting CSA on people not within that definition would be making them inappropriately legally responsible to report. To me, (and probably you), that is probably an unsatisfactory place to stop. You bring up the biblical example of the good Samaritan....here is a situation where there is definitely no "legal" responsibility yet Christians' should feel very conflicted to not help others when they are in a position to do so. I think this is an important point...the good Samaritan helped the man at the roadside's situation but did nothing to ensure that whatever had harmed him in the first place would not come to pass again. This seems to be an example of the line between appropriate and inappropriate responsibility. In this example, we are all appropriately responsible to do what is in our power to help individuals who are less fortunate....but interactions with systemic forces would be beyond appropriate individual responsibility. To place responsibility on the individual for whatever system that had led to the man being beaten and robbed would inevitably lead to the destruction of the good Samaritan and their ability to help other less fortunate people. This gets at the collective action/collective responsibility vs individual action/individual responsibility topic...that is at least part of the sticky wicket that I was attempting to acknowledge in my earlier post. There is a line there...if we are close to it, it's hard to see but if we are at an extreme it's easy to point that out. So much of society's ill's are just far beyond the ability of any individual to change...but we can all help other individuals. This is probably why people like Mother Theresa, are so inspiring and a politician who is trying to end poverty is not. As with any version of communication, I recognize that I cannot say everything on a topic, so the probability that I left something important out is near 100%. Also...the probability I'm off my rocker is far higher than 0%
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 25, 2023 10:38:02 GMT -5
Sad to say another offender was caught in Alberta ! Wings for Truth Christopher Giauque pleads guilty to possession of child pornography wingsfortruth2 Apr 24 www.sprucegroveexaminer.com/news/local-news/christopher-giauque-pleads-guilty-for-possession-of-child-pornographyChristopher Giauque, a 31-year-old teacher at Spruce Grove Composite High School in Edmonton, was charged with possession of child pornography. Published Apr 02, 2021 • Last updated Apr 02, 2021 Former Spruce Grove Composite High School teacher Christopher Giauque has plead guilty to the possession of child pornography. He is scheduled for arraignment at Edmonton Court of Queens Bench on Apr. 9, 2021. Photo by Ian Kucerak/Edmonton Sun/QMI Agency. Former Spruce Grove Composite High School teacher Christopher Giauque has pleaded guilty for the possession of child pornography. Giauque was arrested in October 2019 by the Alberta Law Enforcement Response Teams’ (ALERT) Internet Child Exploitation (ICE) Unit and charged with the alleged possession of child pornography. The court heard upon police investigation, authorities discovered thousands of pornographic images, in addition to videos, on devices belonging to Giauque. During his latest court appearance on Saturday, Mar. 17, at Edmonton Court of Queens Bench, Giauque plead guilty to charges of possessing child pornography. He is scheduled for arraignment at Edmonton Court of Queens Bench on Friday, Apr. 9, 2021. One of us will seek out the sentence and paperwork . However once again the some people in the way poor choices . Just keep hiding instead of kicking their butts outta meetings . He should been put out completely .
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 25, 2023 12:11:13 GMT -5
AGAIN I ENCOURAGE ANY WHO NEEDS TO REPORT PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE USE THE RESOURCES RAINN: www.rainn.org/articles/adult-survivors-child-sexual-abuseAlso please consider alerting the hotline if you have abuse or a tip to report: www.voicesforthetruth.orgThe hotline is completely confidential and operates 24/7. It is managed by Cynthia Liles, a Private Investigator specializing in CSA cases across the nation. Submit a Tip to our Confidential Hotline CALL OR TEXT (503) 386-4634 in the US +1 (503) 334-6866 internationall
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Post by mountain on Apr 25, 2023 12:48:34 GMT -5
If I understand properly what you mean in your first paragraph, I can only conclude that what you are saying is an extremely dangerous precept. I certainly hope that you are not suggesting that when it comes to issues like CSA, physical abuse, etc., that some have responsibilities and others don't? With regards to these issues every right thinking adult has a moral and civic responsibility to show zero tolerance to these vile practices and should feel compelled to bring to the notice of appropriate bodies any instances they encounter, or to ensure that some other has done so. Responsibility belongs to us all. It is all 'appropriate!' Did the good Samaritan, in Jesus's excellent parable on the subject of compassion and love, look to himself and say 'it is inappropriate for me to take responsibility here' when he saw the robbed and beaten 'Jewish' man lying at the roadside? Did he say to himself, 'I will leave him for a priest or levite to walk by. They will take appropriate responsibility. I'm off!'
Likewise ye must cast aside these notions of inappropriate responsibility in matters such as we are discussing. You just might be the one who brings about appropriate help, when others, perhaps better placed than yourself to do so, fail to carry out their moral, civic and legal duty. In some countries and States, they have 'mandatory reporting.' This has come about due to the failings of the principles I understand you are presenting? MR compels certain classes of people to report matters of CSA etc., to the authorities, simply because people have ignored their moral and civic rights to do so. MR is an attempt to correct a failure, to force certain people to do something which should be done as a personal duty (eg the Samaritan). In the UK we do not as a rule have a system of mandatory reporting, but rely on the moral and civic aspect of reporting. The message is hammered home and is quite effective. As with any system there are and will be failings, especially in a climate where 'inappropriate responsibility' exists. If I have misunderstood your position, then I apologise. If however, I have understood you, then this idea of inappropriate responsibility should be evacuated quicker than an involuntary bowel movement, then flushed swiftly away, never to be brought to memory again! No need to apologize for misunderstanding....or at least (hahaha) don't take full responsibility. After all how could I not be at least partially responsible for that. Also, thank you for the vibrant evacuation imagery (yikes!) Ok...So in the extremes...both of the concepts that you and I are discussing could be described as dangerous I suppose. To explain this, I run the risk of being malevolently misinterpreted but you don't seem to be super motivated to do that... so, here goes. I'm trying to find the line between appropriate and inappropriate responsibility. I bring this up because a lot of the discussion that has been animated in the days since the misdeeds of Dean Bruer and Mark Huddle became widely known, the question of who is responsible and what is causing this is in the background of a lot of the discourse. Some of the more, shall we say, heated exchanges seem to be between people who are coming from a position of privilege to have not come into the awareness of CSA in their faith system and those who can't believe that to be the case. For the former, they feel betrayed, shocked, disgusted, shaken, defensive etc.... For the latter, statements of incredulity at, and moral outrage against the former that do not stop at outright blaming people who "should have known better" continue to be bandied about. Undoubtedly there are people who "should have know better"....lets call them appropriately responsible. You rightly bring attention to mandatory reporters as an example of somebody who would be appropriately responsible to help bring these actions to an end...I have not yet heard the argument that would refute that. Lets use mandatory reporting requirements to try and illuminate this topic and move beyond the low-hanging fruit of obvious agreement. What would be an example of inappropriate responsibility? In the eyes of the law, there are plenty of people in this category...mandatory reporters are clearly defined, so to lay legal responsibility for not reporting CSA on people not within that definition would be making them inappropriately legally responsible to report. To me, (and probably you), that is probably an unsatisfactory place to stop. You bring up the biblical example of the good Samaritan....here is a situation where there is definitely no "legal" responsibility yet Christians' should feel very conflicted to not help others when they are in a position to do so. I think this is an important point...the good Samaritan helped the man at the roadside's situation but did nothing to ensure that whatever had harmed him in the first place would not come to pass again. This seems to be an example of the line between appropriate and inappropriate responsibility. In this example, we are all appropriately responsible to do what is in our power to help individuals who are less fortunate....but interactions with systemic forces would be beyond appropriate individual responsibility. To place responsibility on the individual for whatever system that had led to the man being beaten and robbed would inevitably lead to the destruction of the good Samaritan and their ability to help other less fortunate people. This gets at the collective action/collective responsibility vs individual action/individual responsibility topic...that is at least part of the sticky wicket that I was attempting to acknowledge in my earlier post. There is a line there...if we are close to it, it's hard to see but if we are at an extreme it's easy to point that out. So much of society's ill's are just far beyond the ability of any individual to change...but we can all help other individuals. This is probably why people like Mother Theresa, are so inspiring and a politician who is trying to end poverty is not. As with any version of communication, I recognize that I cannot say everything on a topic, so the probability that I left something important out is near 100%. Also...the probability I'm off my rocker is far higher than 0% :P I mean this in no impertinent way my dear friend, but I sincerely hope I never have to rely on you for traffic directions. Point 2. Regarding your last sentence. A word of warning. Do not EVER attempt to make out that you are more of your rocker than I am! I proudly wear that badge and the crown. Seek to usurp me at your peril!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 25, 2023 13:04:03 GMT -5
Be "easy to be intreated", brother, this is the "wisdom which is from above" James 3:17 👍 I am easily intreated and inspired by truth and sincerity. There are church and non church members who post with such on TMB! Then there are church and non church members who in their posts reveal otherwise. Not easy to be intreated by them. I understand this to be discernment/wisdom from above. Workers need to do more praying and less preying. Try it, you might like it.
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 25, 2023 13:43:19 GMT -5
I am easily intreated and inspired by truth and sincerity. There are church and non church members who post with such on TMB! Then there are church and non church members who in their posts reveal otherwise. Not easy to be intreated by them. I understand this to be discernment/wisdom from above. Workers need to do more praying and less preying. Try it, you might like it. Appreciate your godly sincere advice for me Curly! But of course I have it all wrong I really need to take heed to: a) Jane who helps me with "I am curious to your thoughts...not just your constant bickering with others."b) The 'sage' Fixit who counsels me with "Constantly referring to people's concerns as "baseless allegations" doesn't make them go away." 🤭😳 (which is 'so valid and correct and true' about this postfrom our beloved curly and others at the same level from chuck, mrbalino, pragmatic , fixit, etc.) Thank you Fixit..🤭 c) Jonathan who advised "Simply state your answers here, in the open. If you're really convicted about them, no amount of criticism will hurt you." Ride the tiger's back and apply your counsel to yourself brother! To something better....Chinese whispers, I have stated my respect and care for you, and that is sincere. I reconfirm that again now. Thank you for posting Rob N's last communication for CA. Whew another worker facing allegations and asked to stand down. Do the right thing! I look the end, the goal, a cleansed ministry which handles all matters relating to CSA in an enlightened correct manner. That is happening, some countries/locations had it in place before the Dean Bruer matter came into public. In others necessary/much needs changes are being implemented. (of course I understand that for some who post here nothing will ever be enough! 🤷♂️, but fortunately they don't matter )
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 25, 2023 13:46:25 GMT -5
Workers need to do more praying and less preying. Try it, you might like it. "Then there are church and non church members who in their posts reveal otherwise. Not easy to be intreated by them. I understand this to be discernment/wisdom from above." You appear to be doing your best to minimize and deflect the very real threat that people like you are to others in your church.
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Post by deepdeep on Apr 25, 2023 13:47:21 GMT -5
No need to apologize for misunderstanding....or at least (hahaha) don't take full responsibility. After all how could I not be at least partially responsible for that. Also, thank you for the vibrant evacuation imagery (yikes!) Ok...So in the extremes...both of the concepts that you and I are discussing could be described as dangerous I suppose. To explain this, I run the risk of being malevolently misinterpreted but you don't seem to be super motivated to do that... so, here goes. I'm trying to find the line between appropriate and inappropriate responsibility. I bring this up because a lot of the discussion that has been animated in the days since the misdeeds of Dean Bruer and Mark Huddle became widely known, the question of who is responsible and what is causing this is in the background of a lot of the discourse. Some of the more, shall we say, heated exchanges seem to be between people who are coming from a position of privilege to have not come into the awareness of CSA in their faith system and those who can't believe that to be the case. For the former, they feel betrayed, shocked, disgusted, shaken, defensive etc.... For the latter, statements of incredulity at, and moral outrage against the former that do not stop at outright blaming people who "should have known better" continue to be bandied about. Undoubtedly there are people who "should have know better"....lets call them appropriately responsible. You rightly bring attention to mandatory reporters as an example of somebody who would be appropriately responsible to help bring these actions to an end...I have not yet heard the argument that would refute that. Lets use mandatory reporting requirements to try and illuminate this topic and move beyond the low-hanging fruit of obvious agreement. What would be an example of inappropriate responsibility? In the eyes of the law, there are plenty of people in this category...mandatory reporters are clearly defined, so to lay legal responsibility for not reporting CSA on people not within that definition would be making them inappropriately legally responsible to report. To me, (and probably you), that is probably an unsatisfactory place to stop. You bring up the biblical example of the good Samaritan....here is a situation where there is definitely no "legal" responsibility yet Christians' should feel very conflicted to not help others when they are in a position to do so. I think this is an important point...the good Samaritan helped the man at the roadside's situation but did nothing to ensure that whatever had harmed him in the first place would not come to pass again. This seems to be an example of the line between appropriate and inappropriate responsibility. In this example, we are all appropriately responsible to do what is in our power to help individuals who are less fortunate....but interactions with systemic forces would be beyond appropriate individual responsibility. To place responsibility on the individual for whatever system that had led to the man being beaten and robbed would inevitably lead to the destruction of the good Samaritan and their ability to help other less fortunate people. This gets at the collective action/collective responsibility vs individual action/individual responsibility topic...that is at least part of the sticky wicket that I was attempting to acknowledge in my earlier post. There is a line there...if we are close to it, it's hard to see but if we are at an extreme it's easy to point that out. So much of society's ill's are just far beyond the ability of any individual to change...but we can all help other individuals. This is probably why people like Mother Theresa, are so inspiring and a politician who is trying to end poverty is not. As with any version of communication, I recognize that I cannot say everything on a topic, so the probability that I left something important out is near 100%. Also...the probability I'm off my rocker is far higher than 0% :P I mean this in no impertinent way my dear friend, but I sincerely hope I never have to rely on you for traffic directions. Point 2. Regarding your last sentence. A word of warning. Do not EVER attempt to make out that you are more of your rocker than I am! I proudly wear that badge and the crown. Seek to usurp me at your peril! How does the saying go? about if you are wondering who the crazy person in the room is...it's you! I think we all feel that way sometimes. And I promise that driving directions are much easier for me to transmit than my garbled thoughts on these matters. These walls of poorly formatted text (could have done a better job of that...no excuse) can make nuance difficult to achieve and even more difficult to folllow.
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