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Post by mountain on Apr 24, 2023 14:49:29 GMT -5
Much is said (rightly) that education and awareness are primary tools in combatting CSA and other forms of abuse. However, this inadvertently places responsibility on the victims, whilst ignoring perpetrators. It means that a 7-8 year old child is meant to stand up to a mature 40 year old in these matters. Education and awareness will not replace fear in these circumstances and if the child succumbs to advances, will be even more reluctant to tell their parents for fear of being told what they should have done. Thanks for bringing this up. When grooming and CSA start on a child, they often do not know how to recognize it. They may feel the abuser just likes them and for some reason takes a special interest in them. They may like the attention at first and if it is an esteemed worker, even moreso. And the child may feel confused when the abuse actually starts. Many perps are very very good at giving veiled threats if the child tells anyone about it. CSA ends up being more than just about the sexual component of the abuse. It includes mental, emotional, and if the clergy is involved, spiritual. IT's truly a very sickening thing. Take it a step further and if adults know about it and don't expose it....it's covered up and there are NO CONSEQUENCES for the perps. Yes the 'this is a big secret between you and me and we won't tell anyone about it' is a common trust builder.
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Dean Bruer
Apr 24, 2023 15:39:04 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by luke2236 on Apr 24, 2023 15:39:04 GMT -5
I’m just waiting for you to answer my questions. But it appears you won’t so we really have no dialogue. You are quite correct on the basis of how you post/what you write there is no reason to respond. I could say more but will leave it at this. Have a good day!😀 No problem at all. Not responding says it all! You too! 🤓
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 24, 2023 15:45:58 GMT -5
You are quite correct on the basis of how you post/what you write there is no reason to respond. I could say more but will leave it at this. Have a good day!😀 No problem at all. Not responding says it all! You too! 🤓 You make some pretty interesting statements as you seek to get the '2x2 way'( as you refer to it) back on track. Since you are 'very humbly proud 5th generation saint' (as you refer to yourself) you'd probably get more traction sharing your concerns with the Sunday morning meeting, friends and workers where you are? But maybe having a fling here in your anonymity is more your comfort zone?
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Dean Bruer
Apr 24, 2023 15:50:23 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by luke2236 on Apr 24, 2023 15:50:23 GMT -5
No problem at all. Not responding says it all! You too! 🤓 You make some pretty interesting statements as you seek to get the '2x2 way'( as you refer to it) back on track. Since you are 'very humbly proud 5th generation saint' (as you refer to yourself) you'd probably get more traction sharing your concerns with the Sunday morning meeting, friends and workers where you are? But maybe having a fling here in your anonymity is more your comfort zone? More non-response more speaking volumes - well done!
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Post by fixit on Apr 24, 2023 15:50:42 GMT -5
How about some compassion for those who are hurting and reading here? Absolutely! and.... reveal the lack of substance the posts with incorrect statements and wild allegations, their hypocrisy ....and they have NOTHING to offer in defence of their mischief. It is overdue time that someone stood up and said NO, 'you can't post your nonsense and not face scrutiny about it'. Same old same old attitude of deflection and dismissal that has put workers in the mess they are in right now.
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Post by verna on Apr 24, 2023 15:51:31 GMT -5
No it clears up nothing. I understand that people think these things are the work of Satan. I find that bizarre and completely part of the problem/confusion. I do not believe in Satan. I do believe in human inclination (based on evolution), trauma, greed, power, ignorance and likely some psychopathy. I see no need for adding Satan into the equation unless the goal is to confuse. Ok so you don't believe in Satan. Thats ok. A quote I've always liked is "The greatest trick the devil ever did was to convince the world he didn't exist." If one believes in God then one has to believe in Satan. Maybe you don't believe in either and thats ok. I hope you believe in evil and the church has alot of evil in it on how it handles these vile acts like rape and pedophelia. That is evident by their standard procedure in how they handle the victims of these rapists and pedophiles and what they do with them. It is disgusting how they are taught to deal with things. I hope that every perpetrator is brought to justice so the victims can have at least some sort of solace, justice and closure. I hope they can live a happier and better life because I don't think that one really recovers from such trauma completely. My belief (or not) in evil depends on how you define it. I seldom use the term because of how quickly people tend to jump from “evil” to “the devil/Satan”. When I look up evil in the dictionary it says as an adjective it means profoundly immoral. As a noun in refers, as I suspected, to supernatural forces “profound immorality and wickedness, especially when regarded as a supernatural force.” I absolutely believe that much is done by human beings that is profoundly wrong (as in causes damage) and needs to end. Resorting to the supernatural is obfuscation imo.
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 24, 2023 15:53:33 GMT -5
You make some pretty interesting statements as you seek to get the '2x2 way'( as you refer to it) back on track. Since you are 'very humbly proud 5th generation saint' (as you refer to yourself) you'd probably get more traction sharing your concerns with the Sunday morning meeting, friends and workers where you are? But maybe having a fling here in your anonymity is more your comfort zone? More non-response more speaking volumes - well done! This is how it ends up each time when I don't take nonsense/probe posters of your type! Readers discern. 🤷♂️👍.
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Post by fixit on Apr 24, 2023 15:54:14 GMT -5
They never learned the adage "It's better to keep silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Yes Fixit I am absolutely for real!!! So you have been duped by pragmatic's 'scoop' find as well! 🤭🤣 No, I would be duped if I accepted your deflection and dismissal.
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 24, 2023 15:54:55 GMT -5
Absolutely! and.... reveal the lack of substance the posts with incorrect statements and wild allegations, their hypocrisy ....and they have NOTHING to offer in defence of their mischief. It is overdue time that someone stood up and said NO, 'you can't post your nonsense and not face scrutiny about it'. Same old same old attitude of deflection and dismissal that has put workers in the mess they are in right now. Fixit I appreciate your caution that appears each time you post: "Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!"
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 24, 2023 15:56:12 GMT -5
More non-response more speaking volumes - well done! This is how it ends up each time when I don't take nonsense/probe posters of your type! Readers discern. 🤷♂️👍. Try as I may I could never explain what I hear when you don't say a thing
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Post by snow on Apr 24, 2023 15:57:17 GMT -5
There are many letters coming out where Overseer after Overseer has silenced the victim and protected the perpetrator. It may not be written and I didn't say it was I am saying that it is a standard practice to do NOTHING but move and protect the perpetrator then silence the victim, Those actions make it seem like they condone the behavior. If they didn't why haven't they been reported over the decades? To protect the church no matter what. The problem is, it is not "protecting the church". It is undermining the church and betraying all the really good people who are invested in it. Why can they not see that? I have been trying to figure that out lately too. Why would they think it was good for the church when anyone on the outside can clearly see it doing exactly the opposite. I have never really thought about it as a cult, but lately I'm more on board with that. I say that because why else would good people be willing to downplay and outright deny the damage these people are having on children? The mindset of the cult member is to protect the cult. Many of the workers and even overseers were raised in the same environment as we were and I know how sure I was for a time that everything that was preached at me was the 'God's truth'. It's obvious just how much that is believed after reading the NB Shame letter. She didn't say anything because she was being held hostage with the belief that if the workers edged her family out they would go to hell. Holding your family hostage is a horrible thing to do, but it wouldn't have been possible in the first place if she hadn't believed that wholeheartedly. If the group does break up and slowly the members realize what they believed probably wasn't true, I feel so sorry for those who when they do come to their senses and realize what they did to cover things up to save the group from bad press, because they are likely to be horrified by what they did. Many of these people are genuinely good people that have been raised to believe their 'Way' is truly the only way for salvation and so they will go to great lengths to protect that 'Way'. It's going to be a real ugly realization when it finally hits them. That goes for workers too because they are just as wrapped up in this mindset as the friends. We were all raised that way. In some ways enablers are worse than the abusers because they fully know it's wrong and turned a blind eye.
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Dean Bruer
Apr 24, 2023 16:00:07 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by luke2236 on Apr 24, 2023 16:00:07 GMT -5
luke2236.You are not a member of what you refer to as the '2x2 way' am I correct? You are taking quite an interest in them, have lots of suggestions of how you think they are wrong and what they need to do! 'What's your beef'? Where are you coming from? The impression I have is that you are posting to 'let off a bit a steam' about a group of people that you despise. It gives you cathartic release to do so. No sir, I never quit professing (isn’t that the term for a non-member?) In fact Im a historically very humbly proud 5th generation saint. I noticed you didn’t answer any of the questions regarding the porn problem. You answer mine and I’ll answer yours. Readers discern the questions that this contributor will not address. 😳 Let this be a cautionary tale dear souls.
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Post by snow on Apr 24, 2023 16:05:54 GMT -5
It absolves people of their own naivete and stupidity. It provides them with a threat of infidelity on non-believers of claims. It provides the ineffective with a final word in a discussion. I just can’t help but think that the concept of the Satan/devil sets people up to be brainwashed/abused. If you don’t do as we say the devil will get you and all sorts of horror will befall you. You will have no control over your behaviour and you’ll suffer forever. Glad that this is no longer part of my belief system. People need a scapegoat? Instead of taking full responsibility for our actions we can place some of the blame on a being that is very skilled at 'leading us into temptation'?
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Post by neighbour on Apr 24, 2023 16:12:31 GMT -5
If the group does break up and slowly the members realize what they believed probably wasn't true, I feel so sorry for those who when they do come to their senses and realize what they did to cover things up to save the group from bad press, because they are likely to be horrified by what they did. Many of these people are genuinely good people that have been raised to believe their 'Way' is truly the only way for salvation and so they will go to great lengths to protect that 'Way'. It's going to be a real ugly realization when it finally hits them. That goes for workers too because they are just as wrapped up in this mindset as the friends. We were all raised that way. In some ways enablers are worse than the abusers because they fully know it's wrong and turned a blind eye. I'm preparing for an upheaval. It's scriptural that secrecy will be undone. “Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. But there is nothing covered up that will not be revealed, and hidden that will not be known. Accordingly, whatever you have said in the dark will be heard in the light, and what you have whispered in the inner rooms will be proclaimed upon the housetops."
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 24, 2023 16:13:06 GMT -5
There are a growing number of friends who don’t feel comfortable having workers stay in their children’s room and use the family internet to access porn. If meeting had a specific way to deal with this hidden issue, maybe there could be a couple less Dean Bruers because their perversions wouldn’t have the chance to secretly grow. Much is said (rightly) that education and awareness are primary tools in combatting CSA and other forms of abuse. However, this inadvertently places responsibility on the victims, whilst ignoring perpetrators. It means that a 7-8 year old child is meant to stand up to a mature 40 year old in these matters. Education and awareness will not replace fear in these circumstances and if the child succumbs to advances, will be even more reluctant to tell their parents for fear of being told what they should have done. What education and awareness need is the limiting of the scope of perpetrators to carry out their deeds. This can only be done through restricting as far as possible, temptation and opportunity. Without these a perp cannot carry out their misdeeds. Allowing trusted, revered and unrelated people to stay in homes where there are children and/or other vulnerable people is blatantly giving temptation a chance to flourish amongst potential perps as well as opportunity to work on or carry out their misdeeds. Awareness of this is essential. There are other situations which need addressed as well. Everyone needs to understand this in order to protect the weak and vulnerable. Good, honest, workers and elders will readily see this and factor it in, in their domestic and other pertinent arrangements. Part of the Lord's Prayer is ...'Lead us not into temptation, and deliver us from all evil.' This should be a key part of the advice so necessary for combatting CSA, etc. Yes the good workers have to suffer due to the criminal and abusive actions of the few bad eggs, but that is the way of life and is how society addresses the matter. No right thinking person in the world would condone workers staying in the homes of unrelated children or other vulnerable persons while it is evident that these abuses occur. For the sake of their own standing, the work has to get with it! . Do you find elders and workers answer your questions when you interview them? I hope you find that a majority of the time they don’t deflect or answer in ways that answer the question but don’t really answer the question.
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Post by fixit on Apr 24, 2023 16:18:18 GMT -5
I'm a "professing" person, born and raised. It is my understanding that internationalstudies is a worker? If so, internationalstudies' embarassing antics on here are proof that there really are infantile adults in the work. They are doing nothing to convince me these current scandals will be handled according to the Spirit. Well said! He serves a good purpose on here though....it helps us to understand what we're dealing with.
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Post by snow on Apr 24, 2023 16:21:52 GMT -5
Very true... Alcoholism = Alcoholics have a disease, not their fault they're drunk... Sex addict = raping children is an uncontrollable addiction, not a perversion... Kleptomania = is an impulse disorder, they can't help stealing... Transsexual = I think I'm female, therefore I am... Bulimia = obesity is a condition, no one over-eats and gets fat by choice.
And you're not confused??? Where to start?
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Post by fixit on Apr 24, 2023 16:34:52 GMT -5
luke2236.You are not a member of what you refer to as the '2x2 way' am I correct? You are taking quite an interest in them, have lots of suggestions of how you think they are wrong and what they need to do! 'What's your beef'? Where are you coming from? The impression I have is that you are posting to 'let off a bit a steam' about a group of people that you despise. It gives you cathartic release to do so. There are a few like you who aren't part of this 'awful 2x2 outfit' but sure seem to all the answers about how to fix up all that they feel is wrong with them!!! This is forum where they are free to do so. If it helps you and others to feel better in doing so, then this is a good safe anonymous place to do so eh?🤷♂️👍 This 'awful 2x2 outfit' as you call it has had a huge impact on the lives of most who post here and with family in the church it will continue to impact them to some extent. You could learn from them if you were not so focused on deflecting and dismissing everything that doesn't boost your ego.
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Post by deepdeep on Apr 24, 2023 16:35:50 GMT -5
The problem is, it is not "protecting the church". It is undermining the church and betraying all the really good people who are invested in it. Why can they not see that? I have been trying to figure that out lately too. Why would they think it was good for the church when anyone on the outside can clearly see it doing exactly the opposite. I have never really thought about it as a cult, but lately I'm more on board with that. I say that because why else would good people be willing to downplay and outright deny the damage these people are having on children? The mindset of the cult member is to protect the cult. Many of the workers and even overseers were raised in the same environment as we were and I know how sure I was for a time that everything that was preached at me was the 'God's truth'. It's obvious just how much that is believed after reading the NB Shame letter. She didn't say anything because she was being held hostage with the belief that if the workers edged her family out they would go to hell. Holding your family hostage is a horrible thing to do, but it wouldn't have been possible in the first place if she hadn't believed that wholeheartedly. If the group does break up and slowly the members realize what they believed probably wasn't true, I feel so sorry for those who when they do come to their senses and realize what they did to cover things up to save the group from bad press, because they are likely to be horrified by what they did. Many of these people are genuinely good people that have been raised to believe their 'Way' is truly the only way for salvation and so they will go to great lengths to protect that 'Way'. It's going to be a real ugly realization when it finally hits them. That goes for workers too because they are just as wrapped up in this mindset as the friends. We were all raised that way. In some ways enablers are worse than the abusers because they fully know it's wrong and turned a blind eye. The 2x2 is not a large group but it doesn't seem so small that any meaningful percentage would feel implicated in the misdeeds of the few who have participated in CSA or SA. I agree with your statement that the mindset of a cult member is to protect the cult but that is also true of a participant in any system...cult or not. If you derive value from a system (or a cult) even if that system is imperfect (which it will always be), the natural response should be to repair...not to feel shame...(obviously...if you are the reason it's imperfect then by all means...feel as much shame as you can manage). This is a tricky one. How much distributed blame should people shoulder? If one has the privilege to have never been personally involved in a malignant act either as a victim or as a perpetrator...I can see it as being functional to be introspective and say "what did I do or not do to bring about this terrible event?". I can also see it as debilitating for otherwise healthy and moral people to take responsibility when they have none. If you feel responsible for climate change or church CSA or colonialism....And you are not....that can become a mental illness. Very sticky wicket.
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Post by mrdobalina on Apr 24, 2023 16:52:13 GMT -5
Your post basically reads "my head is buried so far up my own a$$ I can't see anything but my own opinions being correct" Free thinking is the ability to alter your point of view when presented with new evidence. I'm chuckling away at your post! (apart from your crudeness) You are entitled to state your opinion, and you sure are doing that!!!! Honest and open crudeness you have to admit. Quite unlike the crudeness of pretending to be a holier-than-thou cult leader that's raping and kiddie fiddling in private.
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Post by openingact34 on Apr 24, 2023 17:04:33 GMT -5
luke2236.You are not a member of what you refer to as the '2x2 way' am I correct? You are taking quite an interest in them, have lots of suggestions of how you think they are wrong and what they need to do! 'What's your beef'? Where are you coming from? The impression I have is that you are posting to 'let off a bit a steam' about a group of people that you despise. It gives you cathartic release to do so. No sir, I never quit professing (isn’t that the term for a non-member?) In fact Im a historically very humbly proud 5th generation saint. I noticed you didn’t answer any of the questions regarding the porn problem. You answer mine and I’ll answer yours. I wonder what the previous four generations would do to you if they heard the way you were talking to a worker.
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Post by mountain on Apr 24, 2023 17:08:28 GMT -5
Much is said (rightly) that education and awareness are primary tools in combatting CSA and other forms of abuse. However, this inadvertently places responsibility on the victims, whilst ignoring perpetrators. It means that a 7-8 year old child is meant to stand up to a mature 40 year old in these matters. Education and awareness will not replace fear in these circumstances and if the child succumbs to advances, will be even more reluctant to tell their parents for fear of being told what they should have done. What education and awareness need is the limiting of the scope of perpetrators to carry out their deeds. This can only be done through restricting as far as possible, temptation and opportunity. Without these a perp cannot carry out their misdeeds. Allowing trusted, revered and unrelated people to stay in homes where there are children and/or other vulnerable people is blatantly giving temptation a chance to flourish amongst potential perps as well as opportunity to work on or carry out their misdeeds. Awareness of this is essential. There are other situations which need addressed as well. Everyone needs to understand this in order to protect the weak and vulnerable. Good, honest, workers and elders will readily see this and factor it in, in their domestic and other pertinent arrangements. Part of the Lord's Prayer is ...'Lead us not into temptation, and deliver us from all evil.' This should be a key part of the advice so necessary for combatting CSA, etc. Yes the good workers have to suffer due to the criminal and abusive actions of the few bad eggs, but that is the way of life and is how society addresses the matter. No right thinking person in the world would condone workers staying in the homes of unrelated children or other vulnerable persons while it is evident that these abuses occur. For the sake of their own standing, the work has to get with it! . Do you find elders and workers answer your questions when you interview them? I hope you find that a majority of the time they don’t deflect or answer in ways that answer the question but don’t really answer the question. I am long retired from my former capacity. I was never officially involved with workers and elders in my official capacity. My observations are based upon my professing years and what I have seen occurring elsewhere across the globe. I did experience a number of incidents (not CSA) as a friend where I came to question the actions/reactions of workers and basically found them wanting. Basically as far as the UK is concerned, CSA etc, only started to become known (mainly from USA, Oz etc,soon after the internet age started and about the time I retired, which was a few years after I stood aside from the sect. My advice/views/comments are based upon my long years in law enforcement and what official advice I would give if I had been faced with the unfolding abuse cases. I do have quite some experience in most forms of abuse in general society. Some cases of physical abuse can be as bad as and even worse than some cases of CSA. All forms of abuse should be tackled with robust measures. Diplomatic approaches may work in some minor cases (bullying etc), but if these are ineffective, strong counter measures must be implemented. In general people will get away with what they get away with.
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Post by snow on Apr 24, 2023 17:28:48 GMT -5
I have been trying to figure that out lately too. Why would they think it was good for the church when anyone on the outside can clearly see it doing exactly the opposite. I have never really thought about it as a cult, but lately I'm more on board with that. I say that because why else would good people be willing to downplay and outright deny the damage these people are having on children? The mindset of the cult member is to protect the cult. Many of the workers and even overseers were raised in the same environment as we were and I know how sure I was for a time that everything that was preached at me was the 'God's truth'. It's obvious just how much that is believed after reading the NB Shame letter. She didn't say anything because she was being held hostage with the belief that if the workers edged her family out they would go to hell. Holding your family hostage is a horrible thing to do, but it wouldn't have been possible in the first place if she hadn't believed that wholeheartedly. If the group does break up and slowly the members realize what they believed probably wasn't true, I feel so sorry for those who when they do come to their senses and realize what they did to cover things up to save the group from bad press, because they are likely to be horrified by what they did. Many of these people are genuinely good people that have been raised to believe their 'Way' is truly the only way for salvation and so they will go to great lengths to protect that 'Way'. It's going to be a real ugly realization when it finally hits them. That goes for workers too because they are just as wrapped up in this mindset as the friends. We were all raised that way. In some ways enablers are worse than the abusers because they fully know it's wrong and turned a blind eye. The 2x2 is not a large group but it doesn't seem so small that any meaningful percentage would feel implicated in the misdeeds of the few who have participated in CSA or SA. I agree with your statement that the mindset of a cult member is to protect the cult but that is also true of a participant in any system...cult or not. If you derive value from a system (or a cult) even if that system is imperfect (which it will always be), the natural response should be to repair...not to feel shame...(obviously...if you are the reason it's imperfect then by all means...feel as much shame as you can manage). This is a tricky one. How much distributed blame should people shoulder? If one has the privilege to have never been personally involved in a malignant act either as a victim or as a perpetrator...I can see it as being functional to be introspective and say "what did I do or not do to bring about this terrible event?". I can also see it as debilitating for otherwise healthy and moral people to take responsibility when they have none. If you feel responsible for climate change or church CSA or colonialism....And you are not....that can become a mental illness. Very sticky wicket. I agree that all systems are imperfect, but I don't think there is the same impact on organizations that aren't religions so they tend to not protect those in their ranks. Judeo/Christian/Islam religions, by their very definition, are supposed to be about people who hold to a higher standard than the rest of the world. They follow a God that is perfect. So there is more to defend when the people 'fall short' of these standards. Wrong or right they are held to a higher standard and they know it. So the tendency to hide these things becomes more important for the reputation of the Church. We saw it with the RCC and other denominations and now we are seeing within the 2x2's. What is surprising is that we are surprised. To address the last paragraph, if you knew it was happening and you kept silent you are responsible. I agree taking on responsibility for things you had nothing to do with is not healthy. You point out that the group is not large. So how many knew this was happening but just decided it was alright to believe the workers when they told them 'it's all under control' or 'they've got the wrong spirit' etc. When Walter was found to be guilty of advances on a child, many within the group stated he was found innocent because they never charged him. He confessed that he did it but that part gets ignored and people are willing to still defend him. He was allowed to go to Glen Valley convention with children is an example of what happens when these acts are downplayed.
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Post by mountain on Apr 24, 2023 17:33:08 GMT -5
I have been trying to figure that out lately too. Why would they think it was good for the church when anyone on the outside can clearly see it doing exactly the opposite. I have never really thought about it as a cult, but lately I'm more on board with that. I say that because why else would good people be willing to downplay and outright deny the damage these people are having on children? The mindset of the cult member is to protect the cult. Many of the workers and even overseers were raised in the same environment as we were and I know how sure I was for a time that everything that was preached at me was the 'God's truth'. It's obvious just how much that is believed after reading the NB Shame letter. She didn't say anything because she was being held hostage with the belief that if the workers edged her family out they would go to hell. Holding your family hostage is a horrible thing to do, but it wouldn't have been possible in the first place if she hadn't believed that wholeheartedly. If the group does break up and slowly the members realize what they believed probably wasn't true, I feel so sorry for those who when they do come to their senses and realize what they did to cover things up to save the group from bad press, because they are likely to be horrified by what they did. Many of these people are genuinely good people that have been raised to believe their 'Way' is truly the only way for salvation and so they will go to great lengths to protect that 'Way'. It's going to be a real ugly realization when it finally hits them. That goes for workers too because they are just as wrapped up in this mindset as the friends. We were all raised that way. In some ways enablers are worse than the abusers because they fully know it's wrong and turned a blind eye. The 2x2 is not a large group but it doesn't seem so small that any meaningful percentage would feel implicated in the misdeeds of the few who have participated in CSA or SA. I agree with your statement that the mindset of a cult member is to protect the cult but that is also true of a participant in any system...cult or not. If you derive value from a system (or a cult) even if that system is imperfect (which it will always be), the natural response should be to repair...not to feel shame...(obviously...if you are the reason it's imperfect then by all means...feel as much shame as you can manage). This is a tricky one. How much distributed blame should people shoulder? If one has the privilege to have never been personally involved in a malignant act either as a victim or as a perpetrator...I can see it as being functional to be introspective and say "what did I do or not do to bring about this terrible event?". I can also see it as debilitating for otherwise healthy and moral people to take responsibility when they have none. If you feel responsible for climate change or church CSA or colonialism....And you are not....that can become a mental illness. Very sticky wicket. No sticky wicket about it. It is common and right practice in the world for those in employments, groups, organisations, to make rules to combat the misdeeds of the few. The many suffer as well, but the reasons for it are seen as logical and common sense ways to protect them from suspicion as well. Most right minded people accept restrictions when they see they are necessary to protect themselves and others for the untoward behaviour of others. Right thinking workers and elders should embrace sensible governance of their domestic arrangements, etc., especially when it is seen what can and does happen in the absence of these measures. Failure to accept such reasonable controls merely exposes an unfitness for the position they hold.
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Dean Bruer
Apr 24, 2023 17:43:26 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by luke2236 on Apr 24, 2023 17:43:26 GMT -5
No sir, I never quit professing (isn’t that the term for a non-member?) In fact Im a historically very humbly proud 5th generation saint. I noticed you didn’t answer any of the questions regarding the porn problem. You answer mine and I’ll answer yours. I wonder what the previous four generations would do to you if they heard the way you were talking to a worker. Well my great grandpa told my dads cousin that he was going to hell when he began to believe in Christ and that he was saved via another church, if that helps answer your question. I can’t blame him, he was told that the workers were apostles that could directly connect to Paul and Peter through the laying on of hands. I’ll avoid describing future generations but to say the least they basically feel they can do whatever they want but that if they leave meeting they could go to hell. I’m not even sure I am talking poorly to a worker if he is a worker, it really is hard to tell. Porn usage needs to be addressed in the William Irvine founded way to help families and workers stop hiding their secret sin and fix it so it doesn’t grow into something terrible. It’s being addressed in other churches so that’s always an option as long as people aren’t fearful or hellfire for attending a church with a building and a hired minister that “says” he or she is called by God. So now we are back to the theology cycle. Only way exclusivity is hard to break.
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Dean Bruer
Apr 24, 2023 17:48:26 GMT -5
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 24, 2023 17:48:26 GMT -5
. Do you find elders and workers answer your questions when you interview them? I hope you find that a majority of the time they don’t deflect or answer in ways that answer the question but don’t really answer the question. I am long retired from my former capacity. I was never officially involved with workers and elders in my official capacity. My observations are based upon my professing years and what I have seen occurring elsewhere across the globe. I did experience a number of incidents (not CSA) as a friend where I came to question the actions/reactions of workers and basically found them wanting. Basically as far as the UK is concerned, CSA etc, only started to become known (mainly from USA, Oz etc,soon after the internet age started and about the time I retired, which was a few years after I stood aside from the sect. My advice/views/comments are based upon my long years in law enforcement and what official advice I would give if I had been faced with the unfolding abuse cases. I do have quite some experience in most forms of abuse in general society. Some cases of physical abuse can be as bad as and even worse than some cases of CSA. All forms of abuse should be tackled with robust measures. Diplomatic approaches may work in some minor cases (bullying etc), but if these are ineffective, strong counter measures must be implemented. In general people will get away with what they get away with. Well I find your input very valuable. I hope that by leaving the sect you were able to keep your relationship with God. I say this with love in the event that it hasn’t, and I can see why someone would feel otherwise given the setup or condemnation to every other church but the Irvine Way.
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Post by deepdeep on Apr 24, 2023 19:01:28 GMT -5
The 2x2 is not a large group but it doesn't seem so small that any meaningful percentage would feel implicated in the misdeeds of the few who have participated in CSA or SA. I agree with your statement that the mindset of a cult member is to protect the cult but that is also true of a participant in any system...cult or not. If you derive value from a system (or a cult) even if that system is imperfect (which it will always be), the natural response should be to repair...not to feel shame...(obviously...if you are the reason it's imperfect then by all means...feel as much shame as you can manage). This is a tricky one. How much distributed blame should people shoulder? If one has the privilege to have never been personally involved in a malignant act either as a victim or as a perpetrator...I can see it as being functional to be introspective and say "what did I do or not do to bring about this terrible event?". I can also see it as debilitating for otherwise healthy and moral people to take responsibility when they have none. If you feel responsible for climate change or church CSA or colonialism....And you are not....that can become a mental illness. Very sticky wicket. No sticky wicket about it. It is common and right practice in the world for those in employments, groups, organisations, to make rules to combat the misdeeds of the few. The many suffer as well, but the reasons for it are seen as logical and common sense ways to protect them from suspicion as well. Most right minded people accept restrictions when they see they are necessary to protect themselves and others for the untoward behaviour of others. Right thinking workers and elders should embrace sensible governance of their domestic arrangements, etc., especially when it is seen what can and does happen in the absence of these measures. Failure to accept such reasonable controls merely exposes an unfitness for the position they hold. Hmm....well...there is a distinction between appropriate responsibility vs inappropriate responsibility. There are people within the 2x2 sect who are appropriately responsible and there are people that are not. To the extent that the rules you reference would impose burdens on those who are not appropriately responsible they are bad rules and will create consequences that are not good...often at the expense of the people that the aforementioned rules were supposed to protect. This is a fascinating discourse....lots of philosophical points of tension between individual rights, collective good, due process, personal choice, and more that I can't think of right now. I think too often, an unfortunate event causes overcorrection that creates more harm than good. Now, merely by observing that fact in the context of things like addressing racial issues or CSA tends to get peoples hackles up...."are you defending pedophiles? or are you a racist?"...I can hear the cries now. The answer is to acknowledge the tension that you deny exists...and to make a course that is as correct as you can make it while still being flexible.
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Post by internationalstudies on Apr 24, 2023 19:03:17 GMT -5
Yes Fixit I am absolutely for real!!! So you have been duped by pragmatic's 'scoop' find as well! 🤭🤣 No, I would be duped if I accepted your deflection and dismissal. Appreciate the caution that accompanies your posts: Caution: My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members. You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!" Thank you!😀
Saves getting into endless off topic tangents (that you preach against and denounce against) but can't stop doing so yourself. 😳🤭 So each time you 'have a little dig' at me, don't be surprised when I don't respond; understanding them in the context of "My posts are my opinions only and are not intended to offend other members."Has the potential to save both of us time engaging in pointless exchange. But keep posting and giving your righteous little digs if you wish? I see you probably genuinely feel you are in pursuit of a good cause and righteousness, as you correctly state..... You're entitled to your opinion, as I am mine!"👍
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