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Post by verna on Nov 14, 2022 16:38:51 GMT -5
I’m inclined to agree with this fellow - Sam Harris- on the subject of free will. We don’t really have it. And so the idea of being punished eternally for what we do is nonsense. What do you think? youtu.be/pCofmZlC72g
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Free Will
Nov 14, 2022 16:41:45 GMT -5
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Post by Annan on Nov 14, 2022 16:41:45 GMT -5
I’m inclined to agree with this fellow - Sam Harris- on the subject of free will. We don’t really have it. And so the idea of being punished eternally for what we do is nonsense. What do you think? youtu.be/pCofmZlC72gI absolutely agree. We do NOT have free will. We are not wired that way. If you want to go the religious route, if Natie‘s god made us to be unbelievers, then we can’t be held responsible. Done deal.
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nathan2
Royal Member
Nathan again
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Post by nathan2 on Nov 14, 2022 18:39:14 GMT -5
God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the angels, the mortal humans all have FREE WILL to choose where they want to spent for Eternity Heaven or Hell.
God the Father had Free Will for sending the Son God/Man Jesus to die and be a Mediator or peace maker between the Godhead and mortal sinners.
Christ had Free Will to come down from heaven to be the sacrificial Lamb of God to atone the mortal sinners from eternal death in the Lake of fire.
The angels had Free Will either to join the devil to fight against God authority or NOT. By their own Free Will 1/3 of the angels joined their force with Satan and they lost the War in heaven.
The fallen angels were cast out of heaven and sent to earth as their home and prison until the judgment day.
Adam and Eve had Free Will also. They were immortal beings/gods but by their own Free Will they choose to serve Satan/the Devil to be their new God and Master/Ruler on the earth.
We mortal humans have Free Will we either return to Christ and God then they will RESTORE our Immortal being/nature before the Fall of Adam and Eve.
This way we can rule and reign with Christ 1000 years in the Universe and on earth. That was the plan the Godhead had for the Immortal Adamic race before the Fall in the Garden of Eden.
We either continue live our own way and die as mortal sinners in the Lake of fire with the devil/Satan
Or to accept Jesus Christ as our Redeemer and Savior to live with God in the New earth and heaven.
The choice is for each individual mortal being to choose because of FREE Will God has given us to decide, Heaven or Hell for eternity
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Post by snow on Nov 14, 2022 18:53:42 GMT -5
I’m inclined to agree with this fellow - Sam Harris- on the subject of free will. We don’t really have it. And so the idea of being punished eternally for what we do is nonsense. What do you think? youtu.be/pCofmZlC72gI watched this quite a few years ago and read the book. I have thought about it a great deal. If it's true and it very well can be true, it's still essential to lock the murderers away for the safety of the population. What I see as changing is the way we view or treat these people. Instead of maligning them and treating them horrifically like we tend to do, we could make sure that while they are kept separate from society, that we still give them an environment that is not like our prisons are at the moment. We know that the distance between our mind making up 'it's mind' can be as long as 7 seconds. EKG's have proven this. So our mind is already made up before we are even conscious of the fact that we have already made a decision. Knowing this, what he is saying makes sense. We know that the amygdala (the emotional processing part of our brain) is determined on our past experiences. We literally respond based on our past experiences which are very personally ours. And seeing as everyone processes their experiences differently, it makes for a very selective thought process. I've talked about this on here before when asked why atheists that used to be Christians can be triggered by the threat of hell. Well, that's because our past experience has been that hell was a terrible threat to our eternity. Just because we have cognitively processed that hell doesn't exist, our emotional center doesn't know that. It's ingrained into our thinking because it held such a dire threat to us at one point in our lives. So our body reacts physiologically to the perceived threat until we become conscious of the thought and can reprocess it to 'I don't believe in hell anymore so it doesn't mean anything to me'. The brain and how it works is so fascinating and we know so little about it. The thought experiment that he did with cities for example is interesting. 'Were you free to choose a city that did not occur to your thought processes to choose?' Obviously you couldn't. So in the end it gives us more reason to treat each other with more tolerance, be kinder etc. because we are all the product of our circumstances and our views of life are dependent on how we process life and the very chemicals in our brain determine a great deal of that. Neuropsychology is a fascinating subject. I have had a great interest in courses that address how our brains work and so I have taken quite a few online courses on the subject. Neurophysiology is something we are just learning more about and we are really in early days of understanding how the brain fires. Free will has been a subject of debate for a very long time. Philosophers have had many different ideas about it.
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Post by snow on Nov 14, 2022 18:57:21 GMT -5
God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the angels, the mortal humans all have FREE WILL to choose where they want to spent for Eternity Heaven or Hell. God the Father had Free Will for sending the Son God/Man Jesus to die and be a Mediator or peace maker between the Goadhead and mortal sinners. Christ had Free Will to come down from heaven to be the sacrificial Lamb of God to atone the mortal sinners from eternal death in the Lake of fire. The angels had Free Will either to join the devil to fight against God authority or NOT. By their own Free Will 1/3 of the angels joined their force with Satan and they lost the War in heaven. The fallen angels were cast out of heaven and sent to earth as their home and prison until the judgment day. Adam and Eve had Free Will also. They were immortal beings/gods but by their own Free Will they choose to serve Satan/the Devil to be their new God and Master/Ruler on the earth. We mortal humans have Free Will we either return to Christ and God then they will RESTORE our Immortal being/nature before the Fall of Adam and Eve. This way we can rule and reign with Christ 1000 years in the Universe and on earth. That was the plan the Godhead had for the Immortal Adamic race before the Fall in the Garden of Eden. We either continue live our own way and die as mortal sinners in the Lake of fire with the devil/Satan Or to accept Jesus Christ as our Redeemer and Savior to live with God in the New earth and heaven. The choice is for each individual mortal being to choose because of FREE Will God has given us to decide, Heaven or Hell for eternity And this is an example of a post by someone who chose not to listen to the video lol.... Could Nathan have chosen to listen to the whole thing? Depends on whether it ever occurred to him to actually listen to something that might change his mind. Is it safe for him to change his mind? Maybe not.
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Post by Annan on Nov 14, 2022 19:08:19 GMT -5
God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the angels, the mortal humans all have FREE WILL to choose where they want to spent for Eternity Heaven or Hell. God the Father had Free Will for sending the Son God/Man Jesus to die and be a Mediator or peace maker between the Goadhead and mortal sinners. Christ had Free Will to come down from heaven to be the sacrificial Lamb of God to atone the mortal sinners from eternal death in the Lake of fire. The angels had Free Will either to join the devil to fight against God authority or NOT. By their own Free Will 1/3 of the angels joined their force with Satan and they lost the War in heaven. The fallen angels were cast out of heaven and sent to earth as their home and prison until the judgment day. Adam and Eve had Free Will also. They were immortal beings/gods but by their own Free Will they choose to serve Satan/the Devil to be their new God and Master/Ruler on the earth. We mortal humans have Free Will we either return to Christ and God then they will RESTORE our Immortal being/nature before the Fall of Adam and Eve. This way we can rule and reign with Christ 1000 years in the Universe and on earth. That was the plan the Godhead had for the Immortal Adamic race before the Fall in the Garden of Eden. We either continue live our own way and die as mortal sinners in the Lake of fire with the devil/Satan Or to accept Jesus Christ as our Redeemer and Savior to live with God in the New earth and heaven. The choice is for each individual mortal being to choose because of FREE Will God has given us to decide, Heaven or Hell for eternity And this is an example of a post by someone who chose not to listen to the video lol.... Could Nathan have chosen to listen to the whole thing? Depends on whether it ever occurred to him to actually listen to something that might change his mind. Is it safe for him to change his mind? Maybe not. He has no free will. He’s wired that way.
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Post by snow on Nov 14, 2022 19:21:56 GMT -5
And this is an example of a post by someone who chose not to listen to the video lol.... Could Nathan have chosen to listen to the whole thing? Depends on whether it ever occurred to him to actually listen to something that might change his mind. Is it safe for him to change his mind? Maybe not. He has no free will. He’s wired that way. We probably all are 'wired that way'. It doesn't mean we don't decide right from wrong or a need to protect society from those who would do harm, but difference is that we no longer want to take 'retribution' against them if they are 'wired' a certain way.
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nathan2
Royal Member
Nathan again
50%
Posts: 3,235
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Free Will
Nov 14, 2022 20:02:09 GMT -5
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Post by nathan2 on Nov 14, 2022 20:02:09 GMT -5
God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the angels, the mortal humans all have FREE WILL to choose where they want to spent for Eternity Heaven or Hell. God the Father had Free Will for sending the Son God/Man Jesus to die and be a Mediator or peace maker between the Goadhead and mortal sinners. Christ had Free Will to come down from heaven to be the sacrificial Lamb of God to atone the mortal sinners from eternal death in the Lake of fire. The angels had Free Will either to join the devil to fight against God authority or NOT. By their own Free Will 1/3 of the angels joined their force with Satan and they lost the War in heaven. The fallen angels were cast out of heaven and sent to earth as their home and prison until the judgment day. Adam and Eve had Free Will also. They were immortal beings/gods but by their own Free Will they choose to serve Satan/the Devil to be their new God and Master/Ruler on the earth. We mortal humans have Free Will we either return to Christ and God then they will RESTORE our Immortal being/nature before the Fall of Adam and Eve. This way we can rule and reign with Christ 1000 years in the Universe and on earth. That was the plan the Godhead had for the Immortal Adamic race before the Fall in the Garden of Eden. We either continue live our own way and die as mortal sinners in the Lake of fire with the devil/Satan Or to accept Jesus Christ as our Redeemer and Savior to live with God in the New earth and heaven. The choice is for each individual mortal being to choose because of FREE Will God has given us to decide, Heaven or Hell for eternity And this is an example of a post by someone who chose not to listen to the video lol.... Could Nathan have chosen to listen to the whole thing? Depends on whether it ever occurred to him to actually listen to something that might change his mind. Is it safe for him to change his mind? Maybe not. *** Sorry, there is something wrong with my iphone I can't watch any links or you tube that people posted on TMB.
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Post by Dan on Nov 14, 2022 21:28:44 GMT -5
We aren't programmed robots, every time you make a decision your exercising free will. I decided to post this, my choice, the devil didn't make me do it!
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Free Will
Nov 14, 2022 22:23:52 GMT -5
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Post by verna on Nov 14, 2022 22:23:52 GMT -5
We aren't programmed robots, every time you make a decision your exercising free will. I decided to post this, my choice, the devil didn't make me do it!
I’m curious to know if you watched the video Dan.
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Free Will
Nov 14, 2022 22:24:53 GMT -5
via mobile
snow likes this
Post by verna on Nov 14, 2022 22:24:53 GMT -5
God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, the angels, the mortal humans all have FREE WILL to choose where they want to spent for Eternity Heaven or Hell. God the Father had Free Will for sending the Son God/Man Jesus to die and be a Mediator or peace maker between the Goadhead and mortal sinners. Christ had Free Will to come down from heaven to be the sacrificial Lamb of God to atone the mortal sinners from eternal death in the Lake of fire. The angels had Free Will either to join the devil to fight against God authority or NOT. By their own Free Will 1/3 of the angels joined their force with Satan and they lost the War in heaven. The fallen angels were cast out of heaven and sent to earth as their home and prison until the judgment day. Adam and Eve had Free Will also. They were immortal beings/gods but by their own Free Will they choose to serve Satan/the Devil to be their new God and Master/Ruler on the earth. We mortal humans have Free Will we either return to Christ and God then they will RESTORE our Immortal being/nature before the Fall of Adam and Eve. This way we can rule and reign with Christ 1000 years in the Universe and on earth. That was the plan the Godhead had for the Immortal Adamic race before the Fall in the Garden of Eden. We either continue live our own way and die as mortal sinners in the Lake of fire with the devil/Satan Or to accept Jesus Christ as our Redeemer and Savior to live with God in the New earth and heaven. The choice is for each individual mortal being to choose because of FREE Will God has given us to decide, Heaven or Hell for eternity And this is an example of a post by someone who chose not to listen to the video lol.... Could Nathan have chosen to listen to the whole thing? Depends on whether it ever occurred to him to actually listen to something that might change his mind. Is it safe for him to change his mind? Maybe not. Exactly!
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Post by verna on Nov 14, 2022 22:32:29 GMT -5
I’m inclined to agree with this fellow - Sam Harris- on the subject of free will. We don’t really have it. And so the idea of being punished eternally for what we do is nonsense. What do you think? youtu.be/pCofmZlC72gI watched this quite a few years ago and read the book. I have thought about it a great deal. If it's true and it very well can be true, it's still essential to lock the murderers away for the safety of the population. What I see as changing is the way we view or treat these people. Instead of maligning them and treating them horrifically like we tend to do, we could make sure that while they are kept separate from society, that we still give them an environment that is not like our prisons are at the moment. We know that the distance between our mind making up 'it's mind' can be as long as 7 seconds. EKG's have proven this. So our mind is already made up before we are even conscious of the fact that we have already made a decision. Knowing this, what he is saying makes sense. We know that the amygdala (the emotional processing part of our brain) is determined on our past experiences. We literally respond based on our past experiences which are very personally ours. And seeing as everyone processes their experiences differently, it makes for a very selective thought process. I've talked about this on here before when asked why atheists that used to be Christians can be triggered by the threat of hell. Well, that's because our past experience has been that hell was a terrible threat to our eternity. Just because we have cognitively processed that hell doesn't exist, our emotional center doesn't know that. It's ingrained into our thinking because it held such a dire threat to us at one point in our lives. So our body reacts physiologically to the perceived threat until we become conscious of the thought and can reprocess it to 'I don't believe in hell anymore so it doesn't mean anything to me'. The brain and how it works is so fascinating and we know so little about it. The thought experiment that he did with cities for example is interesting. 'Were you free to choose a city that did not occur to your thought processes to choose?' Obviously you couldn't. So in the end it gives us more reason to treat each other with more tolerance, be kinder etc. because we are all the product of our circumstances and our views of life are dependent on how we process life and the very chemicals in our brain determine a great deal of that. Neuropsychology is a fascinating subject. I have had a great interest in courses that address how our brains work and so I have taken quite a few online courses on the subject. Neurophysiology is something we are just learning more about and we are really in early days of understanding how the brain fires. Free will has been a subject of debate for a very long time. Philosophers have had many different ideas about it. As someone who has struggled a lot with intrusive thoughts and obsessions this really resonates with me. I have always had empathy for people who commit horrible crimes and people tend to think I’m way out of line. But the brain is strange. Yes I agree these people still need to be locked up to protect others. No doubt about it. Huge implications for social justice/justice system. But also for religious concepts.
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Post by Dan on Nov 15, 2022 1:19:22 GMT -5
I’m curious to know if you watched the video Dan.
No... I started to, but didn't have an hour and 12 minutes to watch all that. But I'm convinced that our brains can override our experiences, we don't need to be a product of our environment. Sure, what we've been subjected to can influence our decisions and feelings about things, but independent reasoning can supersede those initial impulses. Sometimes the biggest battle in life is overcoming ourselves. If we fail to do that, then we use our past as an excuse for our present actions. i.e; Sure I abuse people, but its only because I was abused as a child. As opposed to; I don't slap others because I've been slapped and I wouldn't hurt others as I was hurt. The first comment is an excuse to be mean & irresponsible, the latter is your brain overriding your instinct with compassion. All that said, I can understand the difficulty in unlearning what's been pounded into your head
Threats never brought anyone to Christ... Its like telling someone that if they don't marry you, you'll kill them! God wants your love, so put the ultimatum on hold and focus on that.
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Free Will
Nov 15, 2022 11:40:48 GMT -5
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Post by verna on Nov 15, 2022 11:40:48 GMT -5
I’m curious to know if you watched the video Dan.
No... I started to, but didn't have an hour and 12 minutes to watch all that. But I'm convinced that our brains can override our experiences, we don't need to be a product of our environment. Sure, what we've been subjected to can influence our decisions and feelings about things, but independent reasoning can supersede those initial impulses. Sometimes the biggest battle in life is overcoming ourselves. If we fail to do that, then we use our past as an excuse for our present actions. i.e; Sure I abuse people, but its only because I was abused as a child. As opposed to; I don't slap others because I've been slapped and I wouldn't hurt others as I was hurt. The first comment is an excuse to be mean & irresponsible, the latter is your brain overriding your instinct with compassion. All that said, I can understand the difficulty in unlearning what's been pounded into your head
Threats never brought anyone to Christ... Its like telling someone that if they don't marry you, you'll kill them! God wants your love, so put the ultimatum on hold and focus on that.
Ok if that’s what you “choose” to go with. I’m trying really hard to get an understanding of things that are not so easily explained.
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Post by snow on Nov 15, 2022 14:01:36 GMT -5
And this is an example of a post by someone who chose not to listen to the video lol.... Could Nathan have chosen to listen to the whole thing? Depends on whether it ever occurred to him to actually listen to something that might change his mind. Is it safe for him to change his mind? Maybe not. *** Sorry, there is something wrong with my iphone I can't watch any links or you tube that people posted on TMB. No problem. If you do get a chance it is a very interesting talk.
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Post by snow on Nov 15, 2022 14:02:46 GMT -5
We aren't programmed robots, every time you make a decision your exercising free will. I decided to post this, my choice, the devil didn't make me do it!
Did you listen to the video? No devil involved, just how your brain works and processes things.
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Post by snow on Nov 15, 2022 14:08:35 GMT -5
I watched this quite a few years ago and read the book. I have thought about it a great deal. If it's true and it very well can be true, it's still essential to lock the murderers away for the safety of the population. What I see as changing is the way we view or treat these people. Instead of maligning them and treating them horrifically like we tend to do, we could make sure that while they are kept separate from society, that we still give them an environment that is not like our prisons are at the moment. We know that the distance between our mind making up 'it's mind' can be as long as 7 seconds. EKG's have proven this. So our mind is already made up before we are even conscious of the fact that we have already made a decision. Knowing this, what he is saying makes sense. We know that the amygdala (the emotional processing part of our brain) is determined on our past experiences. We literally respond based on our past experiences which are very personally ours. And seeing as everyone processes their experiences differently, it makes for a very selective thought process. I've talked about this on here before when asked why atheists that used to be Christians can be triggered by the threat of hell. Well, that's because our past experience has been that hell was a terrible threat to our eternity. Just because we have cognitively processed that hell doesn't exist, our emotional center doesn't know that. It's ingrained into our thinking because it held such a dire threat to us at one point in our lives. So our body reacts physiologically to the perceived threat until we become conscious of the thought and can reprocess it to 'I don't believe in hell anymore so it doesn't mean anything to me'. The brain and how it works is so fascinating and we know so little about it. The thought experiment that he did with cities for example is interesting. 'Were you free to choose a city that did not occur to your thought processes to choose?' Obviously you couldn't. So in the end it gives us more reason to treat each other with more tolerance, be kinder etc. because we are all the product of our circumstances and our views of life are dependent on how we process life and the very chemicals in our brain determine a great deal of that. Neuropsychology is a fascinating subject. I have had a great interest in courses that address how our brains work and so I have taken quite a few online courses on the subject. Neurophysiology is something we are just learning more about and we are really in early days of understanding how the brain fires. Free will has been a subject of debate for a very long time. Philosophers have had many different ideas about it. As someone who has struggled a lot with intrusive thoughts and obsessions this really resonates with me. I have always had empathy for people who commit horrible crimes and people tend to think I’m way out of line. But the brain is strange. Yes I agree these people still need to be locked up to protect others. No doubt about it. Huge implications for social justice/justice system. But also for religious concepts. Knowing how the brain processes things only changes how we view and treat those who do horrific crimes. Instead of retribution it's more allowing that they need to be separate from society but also not treated in a retribution type of way. I know it's very hard for people to have compassion for someone who has done something horrific to a loved one, and I don't think there is any requirement to do so. For me it takes away some of the hatred of the person that did it? I don't hate the grizzly who kills my loved one even though it's perfectly normal for me to hate what happened. There is a difference.
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Free Will
Nov 15, 2022 14:14:28 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Annan on Nov 15, 2022 14:14:28 GMT -5
*** Sorry, there is something wrong with my iphone I can't watch any links or you tube that people posted on TMB. No problem. If you do get a chance it is a very interesting talk. You can watch it at home, Natie. No excuses.
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Post by snow on Nov 15, 2022 14:14:51 GMT -5
I’m curious to know if you watched the video Dan. No... I started to, but didn't have an hour and 12 minutes to watch all that. But I'm convinced that our brains can override our experiences, we don't need to be a product of our environment. Sure, what we've been subjected to can influence our decisions and feelings about things, but independent reasoning can supersede those initial impulses. Sometimes the biggest battle in life is overcoming ourselves. If we fail to do that, then we use our past as an excuse for our present actions. i.e; Sure I abuse people, but its only because I was abused as a child. As opposed to; I don't slap others because I've been slapped and I wouldn't hurt others as I was hurt. The first comment is an excuse to be mean & irresponsible, the latter is your brain overriding your instinct with compassion. All that said, I can understand the difficulty in unlearning what's been pounded into your head
Threats never brought anyone to Christ... Its like telling someone that if they don't marry you, you'll kill them! God wants your love, so put the ultimatum on hold and focus on that.
Yes I agree that most of us have those capabilities but we know for a fact that sociopaths do not feel remorse, they are not capable of it. They feel bad they got caught, but that is a personal thing, not remorse for what they actually did. They learn what is acceptable or not acceptable behavior in this world, and for the most part comply. But they also have no real understanding of harming another on a personal level. So you would have to say that their brain is not wired to have that capability and therefore they don't have the same 'circumstances' as people who can empathize, to govern their behavior. If they feel they can get away with it there is no thought about the harm done. Met a few of them when I worked in Forensic Assessment and Outpatient Services and on our lock up unit at the hospital where I worked.
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Free Will
Nov 15, 2022 15:15:36 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by verna on Nov 15, 2022 15:15:36 GMT -5
No... I started to, but didn't have an hour and 12 minutes to watch all that. But I'm convinced that our brains can override our experiences, we don't need to be a product of our environment. Sure, what we've been subjected to can influence our decisions and feelings about things, but independent reasoning can supersede those initial impulses. Sometimes the biggest battle in life is overcoming ourselves. If we fail to do that, then we use our past as an excuse for our present actions. i.e; Sure I abuse people, but its only because I was abused as a child. As opposed to; I don't slap others because I've been slapped and I wouldn't hurt others as I was hurt. The first comment is an excuse to be mean & irresponsible, the latter is your brain overriding your instinct with compassion. All that said, I can understand the difficulty in unlearning what's been pounded into your head
Threats never brought anyone to Christ... Its like telling someone that if they don't marry you, you'll kill them! God wants your love, so put the ultimatum on hold and focus on that.
Yes I agree that most of us have those capabilities but we know for a fact that sociopaths do not feel remorse, they are not capable of it. They feel bad they got caught, but that is a personal thing, not remorse for what they actually did. They learn what is acceptable or not acceptable behavior in this world, and for the most part comply. But they also have no real understanding of harming another on a personal level. So you would have to say that their brain is not wired to have that capability and therefore they don't have the same 'circumstances' as people who can empathize, to govern their behavior. If they feel they can get away with it there is no thought about the harm done. Met a few of them when I worked in Forensic Assessment and Outpatient Services and on our lock up unit at the hospital where I worked. I tend to think that psychopathy is an extreme example and there is a continuum between free will and psychopathy. It is an interesting example because most person can see that yes / the brain seems to operate differently in the case of psychopathy. However I think that it may be that we all have much less free will than we think we have as Harris suggests. If an option is not able to enter our consciousness can we really say we really have free will? Perhaps I can work toward opening my mind to increase my options in the future but at this point in time it is not an option for me. I don’t know. Just playing with ideas. It’s a fun thing that us people who are not required to think a particular way as set out thousands of years ago, are “free” to do!
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Post by snow on Nov 15, 2022 15:56:17 GMT -5
Yes I agree that most of us have those capabilities but we know for a fact that sociopaths do not feel remorse, they are not capable of it. They feel bad they got caught, but that is a personal thing, not remorse for what they actually did. They learn what is acceptable or not acceptable behavior in this world, and for the most part comply. But they also have no real understanding of harming another on a personal level. So you would have to say that their brain is not wired to have that capability and therefore they don't have the same 'circumstances' as people who can empathize, to govern their behavior. If they feel they can get away with it there is no thought about the harm done. Met a few of them when I worked in Forensic Assessment and Outpatient Services and on our lock up unit at the hospital where I worked. I tend to think that psychopathy is an extreme example and there is a continuum between free will and psychopathy. It is an interesting example because most person can see that yes / the brain seems to operate differently in the case of psychopathy. However I think that it may be that we all have much less free will than we think we have as Harris suggests. If an option is not able to enter our consciousness can we really say we really have free will? Perhaps I can work toward opening my mind to increase my options in the future but at this point in time it is not an option for me. I don’t know. Just playing with ideas. It’s a fun thing that us people who are not required to think a particular way as set out thousands of years ago, are “free” to do! That's the crux of it though. If we do not have the ability to 'think of it' then how could we have chosen it? It is interesting. I've read papers on studies that showed the brain activity on EKG up to 7 seconds before the person made a conscious answer. So there is a lot of things going on forming a conclusion before we are even aware that it's happening.
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Post by Dan on Nov 15, 2022 23:12:44 GMT -5
Ok if that’s what you “choose” to go with. I’m trying really hard to get an understanding of things that are not so easily explained.
When you cut through all the psycho-babble, we all have free choice.. Sure you can be brainwashed, but we all inevitably freely choose to believe what we want to accept as the truth.
Jesus was easy to understand, he explained everything in the simplest terms, so try cutting through all the garbage (confusion) and accept his truth. Life is not so complicated when you do.
John's 3:16 "whosoever believeth" is a choice. Its not a jigsaw puzzle with a missing piece, it just requires a little faith.
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Post by verna on Nov 15, 2022 23:46:10 GMT -5
Ok if that’s what you “choose” to go with. I’m trying really hard to get an understanding of things that are not so easily explained.
When you cut through all the psycho-babble, we all have free choice.. Sure you can be brainwashed, but we all inevitably freely choose to believe what we want to accept as the truth.
Jesus was easy to understand, he explained everything in the simplest terms, so try cutting through all the garbage (confusion) and accept his truth. Life is not so complicated when you do.
John's 3:16 "whosoever believeth" is a choice. Its not a jigsaw puzzle with a missing piece, it just requires a little faith. your indoctrinated concepts don’t work for me Dan. If you will open up your mind you will see how preposterous they are.
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Post by chuck on Nov 16, 2022 0:42:49 GMT -5
I’m inclined to agree with this fellow - Sam Harris- on the subject of free will. We don’t really have it. And so the idea of being punished eternally for what we do is nonsense. What do you think? youtu.be/pCofmZlC72gNot sure what I think Verna. I find it hard to fathom we don't have some sort of control over our thoughts and actions even if they are limited by a certain degree. Do you think Sam's presentation wasn't voluntary?. I feel his presentation alone is the opposite of what he was presenting. I have a question and don't take this the wrong way, it is in no way a attack on your character as the question applies everyone in some way or another. Do you treat wally and Nathan and their actions as if they are made by free moral agents or do you treat them like they have no control over their actions?. Do you treat you family like free moral agents, is your love for your family volutary?. Why is their order in lives, Sam's argument about we dont know what our next thought or his next words will be is confusing to me, if that really is the case why is their order to those thoughts or words. Why could he put together a presentation that long if their was no order in within his control, was it just luck he put together a presentation based on years of consistent effort in a partucular area of expertise?, and what about the order in people’s lives that change, he talked about luck/chance and being a psychopath, what about the people who change?, what about people who love something for half their life and then hate it for the other half of their lives? is that change luck as well?. As for Sam, I find it interesting some of his points can be found in the first 5 books of scripture. In summary Im not a dogmatic religous freewiller but I am yet to be convinced its just chance. I think we have some sort of control over our actions even if they are limited.
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Post by Dan on Nov 16, 2022 0:56:55 GMT -5
When you cut through all the psycho-babble, we all have free choice.. Sure you can be brainwashed, but we all inevitably freely choose to believe what we want to accept as the truth.
Jesus was easy to understand, he explained everything in the simplest terms, so try cutting through all the garbage (confusion) and accept his truth. Life is not so complicated when you do.
John's 3:16 "whosoever believeth" is a choice. Its not a jigsaw puzzle with a missing piece, it just requires a little faith. your indoctrinated concepts don’t work for me Dan. If you will open up your mind you will see how preposterous they are.
No problem, your life your choice.. You made a decision (free choice), which was my point. I'm very open minded and have considered everything, what I've chosen to believe works for me.
Just curious, what did Jesus say or do that you find so preposterous?
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Post by chuck on Nov 16, 2022 3:53:05 GMT -5
your indoctrinated concepts don’t work for me Dan. If you will open up your mind you will see how preposterous they are.
No problem, your life your choice.. You made a decision (free choice), which was my point. I'm very open minded and have considered everything, what I've chosen to believe works for me.
Just curious, what did Jesus say or do that you find so preposterous?
Dan I don't think it's that clear cut, it's a highly complex subject that has manyamy aspects we still don't understand, even Sam Harris said that if you listened to his presentation. I disagree with some of what Sam says, but it's silly to dismiss his argument because of religious feelings..... I really dont think you understand what believe even means in its original concept, you just trot of RCC developed lingo that is most definitely not what a 1st century Hebrew person had in mind. Do your homework before using scripture to back up an argument because anyone that has done a bit of research can see Christianity today has no idea about the minds that penned a lot of scripture.
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Free Will
Nov 16, 2022 12:09:24 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by verna on Nov 16, 2022 12:09:24 GMT -5
I’m inclined to agree with this fellow - Sam Harris- on the subject of free will. We don’t really have it. And so the idea of being punished eternally for what we do is nonsense. What do you think? youtu.be/pCofmZlC72gNot sure what I think Verna. I find it hard to fathom we don't have some sort of control over our thoughts and actions even if they are limited by a certain degree. Do you think Sam's presentation wasn't voluntary?. I feel his presentation alone is the opposite of what he was presenting. I have a question and don't take this the wrong way, it is in no way a attack on your character as the question applies everyone in some way or another. Do you treat wally and Nathan and their actions as if they are made by free moral agents or do you treat them like they have no control over their actions?. Do you treat you family like free moral agents, is your love for your family volutary?. Why is their order in lives, Sam's argument about we dont know what our next thought or his next words will be is confusing to me, if that really is the case why is their order to those thoughts or words. Why could he put together a presentation that long if their was no order in within his control, was it just luck he put together a presentation based on years of consistent effort in a partucular area of expertise?, and what about the order in people’s lives that change, he talked about luck/chance and being a psychopath, what about the people who change?, what about people who love something for half their life and then hate it for the other half of their lives? is that change luck as well?. As for Sam, I find it interesting some of his points can be found in the first 5 books of scripture. In summary Im not a dogmatic religous freewiller but I am yet to be convinced its just chance. I think we have some sort of control over our actions even if they are limited. [br You really think that Sam is saying it’s all just chance? I don’t hear that at all. Simply that our thoughts are much less free than we think. I have always thought that we have free will and I still believe that with provisos. In this way Sam has increased my understanding. I suspect our free will is limited in many ways - either by life circumstance, experience and maybe even conscious decision (ha free will limits free will!) but especially just by the complex workings of the brain and just who/what we are simply by being human beings. I do believe that people are responsible for their behaviour. We need that for our civilization to work. But I think it adds something to the understanding to recognize that this is more complex than it appears on its face. And the idea that god would punish us eternally when this is all so tenuous is preposterous. Of course this is a subject for much greater minds than mine but I find it interesting to contemplate. Of course I am only “free” to contemplate it to the extend that I have information and so I will continue to learn. I am interested in knowing what you mean by your statement that what Sam says is in the first 5 books of the bible. Oh and re: Nathan and Wally. I try to treat them the way I would like to be treated but frankly I respond to what they say quite viscerally. I am unsure how “free” I am in my response to them. I certainly have to hold back. So it is a mix or “freeness” and lack of freeness as, I might add, pretty much everything likely is. Edit - chuck I’m wondering if we have different definitions of “chance”. Dictionary says “the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design”. A lot of things might appear to be by chance simply because we don’t understand them yet. I think there might be something in that.
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Post by verna on Nov 16, 2022 12:22:04 GMT -5
your indoctrinated concepts don’t work for me Dan. If you will open up your mind you will see how preposterous they are.
No problem, your life your choice.. You made a decision (free choice), which was my point. I'm very open minded and have considered everything, what I've chosen to believe works for me.
Just curious, what did Jesus say or do that you find so preposterous?
i I believe I have been extremely “unfree” to make the choice I have made. I experienced unrelenting indoctrination and threats of eternal torture reinforcing the status quo. I suspect that it was a fluke of circumstances (my brain) that overrode all of that. Extreme and unrelenting depression. Otherwise I would still be a 2x2. No reason to suspect otherwise. I would be like pretty much all of my family. Not sure how much freedom there was there. Yup I jumped out of the airplane before it crashed. Is that free will? By the way, Jesus didn’t do or say anything that I find preposterous. What is preposterous is what we have done with this book. Chuck has summarized this quite well. I am only just beginning my study.
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