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Post by fixit on Nov 16, 2022 15:00:03 GMT -5
I really dont think you understand what believe even means in its original concept, you just trot of RCC developed lingo that is most definitely not what a 1st century Hebrew person had in mind. Do your homework before using scripture to back up an argument because anyone that has done a bit of research can see Christianity today has no idea about the minds that penned a lot of scripture. Pisteuo To adhere to, trust, rely on. That's a much richer word than the English word believe would normally convey.
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Post by snow on Nov 16, 2022 15:00:42 GMT -5
I’m inclined to agree with this fellow - Sam Harris- on the subject of free will. We don’t really have it. And so the idea of being punished eternally for what we do is nonsense. What do you think? youtu.be/pCofmZlC72gNot sure what I think Verna. I find it hard to fathom we don't have some sort of control over our thoughts and actions even if they are limited by a certain degree. Do you think Sam's presentation wasn't voluntary?. I feel his presentation alone is the opposite of what he was presenting. I have a question and don't take this the wrong way, it is in no way a attack on your character as the question applies everyone in some way or another. Do you treat wally and Nathan and their actions as if they are made by free moral agents or do you treat them like they have no control over their actions?. Do you treat you family like free moral agents, is your love for your family volutary?. Why is their order in lives, Sam's argument about we dont know what our next thought or his next words will be is confusing to me, if that really is the case why is their order to those thoughts or words. Why could he put together a presentation that long if their was no order in within his control, was it just luck he put together a presentation based on years of consistent effort in a partucular area of expertise?, and what about the order in people’s lives that change, he talked about luck/chance and being a psychopath, what about the people who change?, what about people who love something for half their life and then hate it for the other half of their lives? is that change luck as well?. As for Sam, I find it interesting some of his points can be found in the first 5 books of scripture. In summary Im not a dogmatic religous freewiller but I am yet to be convinced its just chance. I think we have some sort of control over our actions even if they are limited. It's interesting that you ask about how Wally and Nathan are treated. I actually do try to keep in mind who they are, their lives etc, how their beliefs were formed when I respond. That's one reason why I don't take offense very easily. I truly do think that judging others is a waste of time, other than to judge whether you are safe around them. We have no idea what they've been through, we have no idea the level of their cognitive skills, especially on line. So a good rule is to just treat people as much as we can in ways we would wish to be treated. My work with criminals in the Canadian parole and probation system, working in a halfway house etc. has shown me that it's not all black and white. That the most horrendous crimes committed by some of the guys that came through the house didn't always reflect who they were. Some of the biggest, meanest looking guys also had another side to them. We had a house cat and you'd be surprised at how often it would bring out the 'softness' in these people that really had done horrible things. I also learned that if you treated them with dignity they responded. For some it was the first time in their lives that they had been treated with respect. So I learned that I couldn't really judge the person, just the behavior. I wrote up life histories on the ones that came through our unit at the hospital in Forensic Services and I often wondered if I would have been any different then them given their upbringing. So when Sam talks about not having access to making good decisions I kind of get that. How people process, life circumstances etc is what they have access to when making decisions. I know I often act in a way that I later ask myself, why the hell did I do that? I imagine everyone has had that experience. So like you I find Sam's talk interesting, but not entirely sure what I think of it. You asked why he was able to form a coherent speech if he really didn't know what he was going to say next. For one thing he likely had it written out and read some of it, but also, we are creatures of patterns. Our brains have no problem keeping to script unless we suffer from some of the more serious neurological problems like Tourette's syndrome.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 16, 2022 18:33:54 GMT -5
I really dont think you understand what believe even means in its original concept, you just trot of RCC developed lingo that is most definitely not what a 1st century Hebrew person had in mind. Do your homework before using scripture to back up an argument because anyone that has done a bit of research can see Christianity today has no idea about the minds that penned a lot of scripture. Pisteuo To adhere to, trust, rely on. That's a much richer word than the English word believe would normally convey. It's interesting that the word "believe" is treated with such iron clad certainty in the English language. The word as it's used in French (our origin) implies a healthy consideration for possible doubt if warranted.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2022 18:40:07 GMT -5
Not sure what I think Verna. I find it hard to fathom we don't have some sort of control over our thoughts and actions even if they are limited by a certain degree. Do you think Sam's presentation wasn't voluntary?. I feel his presentation alone is the opposite of what he was presenting. I have a question and don't take this the wrong way, it is in no way a attack on your character as the question applies everyone in some way or another. Do you treat wally and Nathan and their actions as if they are made by free moral agents or do you treat them like they have no control over their actions?. Do you treat you family like free moral agents, is your love for your family volutary?. Why is their order in lives, Sam's argument about we dont know what our next thought or his next words will be is confusing to me, if that really is the case why is their order to those thoughts or words. Why could he put together a presentation that long if their was no order in within his control, was it just luck he put together a presentation based on years of consistent effort in a partucular area of expertise?, and what about the order in people’s lives that change, he talked about luck/chance and being a psychopath, what about the people who change?, what about people who love something for half their life and then hate it for the other half of their lives? is that change luck as well?. As for Sam, I find it interesting some of his points can be found in the first 5 books of scripture. In summary Im not a dogmatic religous freewiller but I am yet to be convinced its just chance. I think we have some sort of control over our actions even if they are limited. [br You really think that Sam is saying it’s all just chance? I don’t hear that at all. Simply that our thoughts are much less free than we think. I have always thought that we have free will and I still believe that with provisos. In this way Sam has increased my understanding. I suspect our free will is limited in many ways - either by life circumstance, experience and maybe even conscious decision (ha free will limits free will!) but especially just by the complex workings of the brain and just who/what we are simply by being human beings. I do believe that people are responsible for their behaviour. We need that for our civilization to work. But I think it adds something to the understanding to recognize that this is more complex than it appears on its face. And the idea that god would punish us eternally when this is all so tenuous is preposterous. Of course this is a subject for much greater minds than mine but I find it interesting to contemplate. Of course I am only “free” to contemplate it to the extend that I have information and so I will continue to learn. I am interested in knowing what you mean by your statement that what Sam says is in the first 5 books of the bible. Oh and re: Nathan and Wally. I try to treat them the way I would like to be treated but frankly I respond to what they say quite viscerally. I am unsure how “free” I am in my response to them. I certainly have to hold back. So it is a mix or “freeness” and lack of freeness as, I might add, pretty much everything likely is. Edit - chuck I’m wondering if we have different definitions of “chance”. Dictionary says “the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design”. A lot of things might appear to be by chance simply because we don’t understand them yet. I think there might be something in that. If there is no free will how would we be responsible for our "choices" then?
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Post by verna on Nov 16, 2022 19:06:16 GMT -5
[br You really think that Sam is saying it’s all just chance? I don’t hear that at all. Simply that our thoughts are much less free than we think. I have always thought that we have free will and I still believe that with provisos. In this way Sam has increased my understanding. I suspect our free will is limited in many ways - either by life circumstance, experience and maybe even conscious decision (ha free will limits free will!) but especially just by the complex workings of the brain and just who/what we are simply by being human beings. I do believe that people are responsible for their behaviour. We need that for our civilization to work. But I think it adds something to the understanding to recognize that this is more complex than it appears on its face. And the idea that god would punish us eternally when this is all so tenuous is preposterous. Of course this is a subject for much greater minds than mine but I find it interesting to contemplate. Of course I am only “free” to contemplate it to the extend that I have information and so I will continue to learn. I am interested in knowing what you mean by your statement that what Sam says is in the first 5 books of the bible. Oh and re: Nathan and Wally. I try to treat them the way I would like to be treated but frankly I respond to what they say quite viscerally. I am unsure how “free” I am in my response to them. I certainly have to hold back. So it is a mix or “freeness” and lack of freeness as, I might add, pretty much everything likely is. Edit - chuck I’m wondering if we have different definitions of “chance”. Dictionary says “the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design”. A lot of things might appear to be by chance simply because we don’t understand them yet. I think there might be something in that. If there is no free will how would we be responsible for our "choices" then? Did I say there is NO free will? Things are not always black and white right?
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Post by verna on Nov 16, 2022 19:15:02 GMT -5
I’m thinking about analogies. Would you say that someone who is chained up is free to exercise? Certainly they would be able to exercise to some degree. There is always some freedom and some lack of freedom.
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Post by fixit on Nov 16, 2022 19:15:16 GMT -5
Pisteuo To adhere to, trust, rely on. That's a much richer word than the English word believe would normally convey. It's interesting that the word "believe" is treated with such iron clad certainty in the English language. The word as it's used in French (our origin) implies a healthy consideration for possible doubt if warranted. That's interesting and it fits with my understanding of the biblical use.
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Nov 16, 2022 19:47:01 GMT -5
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Post by verna on Nov 16, 2022 19:47:01 GMT -5
[br You really think that Sam is saying it’s all just chance? I don’t hear that at all. Simply that our thoughts are much less free than we think. I have always thought that we have free will and I still believe that with provisos. In this way Sam has increased my understanding. I suspect our free will is limited in many ways - either by life circumstance, experience and maybe even conscious decision (ha free will limits free will!) but especially just by the complex workings of the brain and just who/what we are simply by being human beings. I do believe that people are responsible for their behaviour. We need that for our civilization to work. But I think it adds something to the understanding to recognize that this is more complex than it appears on its face. And the idea that god would punish us eternally when this is all so tenuous is preposterous. Of course this is a subject for much greater minds than mine but I find it interesting to contemplate. Of course I am only “free” to contemplate it to the extend that I have information and so I will continue to learn. I am interested in knowing what you mean by your statement that what Sam says is in the first 5 books of the bible. Oh and re: Nathan and Wally. I try to treat them the way I would like to be treated but frankly I respond to what they say quite viscerally. I am unsure how “free” I am in my response to them. I certainly have to hold back. So it is a mix or “freeness” and lack of freeness as, I might add, pretty much everything likely is. Edit - chuck I’m wondering if we have different definitions of “chance”. Dictionary says “the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design”. A lot of things might appear to be by chance simply because we don’t understand them yet. I think there might be something in that. If there is no free will how would we be responsible for our "choices" then? I would like to re-answer that. I think accountable would be better than responsible.
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Post by Dan on Nov 16, 2022 23:22:09 GMT -5
No problem, your life your choice.. You made a decision (free choice), which was my point. I'm very open minded and have considered everything, what I've chosen to believe works for me.
Just curious, what did Jesus say or do that you find so preposterous?
I believe I have been extremely “unfree” to make the choice I have made. I experienced unrelenting indoctrination and threats of eternal torture reinforcing the status quo. I suspect that it was a fluke of circumstances (my brain) that overrode all of that. Extreme and unrelenting depression. Otherwise I would still be a 2x2. No reason to suspect otherwise. I would be like pretty much all of my family. Not sure how much freedom there was there. Yup I jumped out of the airplane before it crashed. Is that free will? By the way, Jesus didn’t do or say anything that I find preposterous. What is preposterous is what we have done with this book. Chuck has summarized this quite well. I am only just beginning my study.
No one can control your mind, but of course they can put pressure on you to accept what they think and believe. While its difficult to freely make decisions when someone else controls and influences you, especially when your young, we are all ultimately responsible to escape 'group think' and make independent decisions. Glad your in the process of escaping that mental prison and are now seeking answers for yourself. Also glad to hear that you don't oppose Christ himself, but just the religious fanatics, who I agree can be preposterous.
It works in reverse too. I imagine if you grew-up with a couple of morally deprived drunks for parents, who were also atheist that indoctrinated you to believe in nothing, you might find hearing the gospel to be somewhat liberating. In which case, Christianity would be a new mindset that would clear your head of all the learned clutter. "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). Good luck with your quest for answers.
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Post by verna on Nov 17, 2022 12:04:33 GMT -5
I believe I have been extremely “unfree” to make the choice I have made. I experienced unrelenting indoctrination and threats of eternal torture reinforcing the status quo. I suspect that it was a fluke of circumstances (my brain) that overrode all of that. Extreme and unrelenting depression. Otherwise I would still be a 2x2. No reason to suspect otherwise. I would be like pretty much all of my family. Not sure how much freedom there was there. Yup I jumped out of the airplane before it crashed. Is that free will? By the way, Jesus didn’t do or say anything that I find preposterous. What is preposterous is what we have done with this book. Chuck has summarized this quite well. I am only just beginning my study.
No one can control your mind, but of course they can put pressure on you to accept what they think and believe. While its difficult to freely make decisions when someone else controls and influences you, especially when your young, we are all ultimately responsible to escape 'group think' and make independent decisions. Glad your in the process of escaping that mental prison and are now seeking answers for yourself. Also glad to hear that you don't oppose Christ himself, but just the religious fanatics, who I agree can be preposterous.
It works in reverse too. I imagine if you who grew-up with a couple of morally deprived drunks for parents, who were also atheist that indoctrinated you to believe in nothing, you might find hearing the gospel to be somewhat liberating. In which case, Christianity would be a new mindset that would clear your head of all the learned clutter. "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). Good luck with your quest for answers.
Dan if you want to understand why I am angry about religion I think Sam Harris explains it quite well in this YouTube video. Religion is divisive and frankly dangerous! I thought about opening act when Sam was talking about how fanatical/radical /fundamentalist religion is obviously dangerous but moderate religion is possibly just as dangerous. For some reason we excuse abandoning the use of logic/reason when it comes to religion. Something we would not do in any other area of our lives in these days. It is really quite preposterous! I hope you will listen but doubt that you will. It’s strong medicine. Oops forgot to post the link. youtube.com/watch?v=06pSJJaoEsQ&feature=shareThis is a different video (the topic is religion) than the one I posted on free will although he does touch on this again.
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Post by snow on Nov 17, 2022 13:51:55 GMT -5
[br You really think that Sam is saying it’s all just chance? I don’t hear that at all. Simply that our thoughts are much less free than we think. I have always thought that we have free will and I still believe that with provisos. In this way Sam has increased my understanding. I suspect our free will is limited in many ways - either by life circumstance, experience and maybe even conscious decision (ha free will limits free will!) but especially just by the complex workings of the brain and just who/what we are simply by being human beings. I do believe that people are responsible for their behaviour. We need that for our civilization to work. But I think it adds something to the understanding to recognize that this is more complex than it appears on its face. And the idea that god would punish us eternally when this is all so tenuous is preposterous. Of course this is a subject for much greater minds than mine but I find it interesting to contemplate. Of course I am only “free” to contemplate it to the extend that I have information and so I will continue to learn. I am interested in knowing what you mean by your statement that what Sam says is in the first 5 books of the bible. Oh and re: Nathan and Wally. I try to treat them the way I would like to be treated but frankly I respond to what they say quite viscerally. I am unsure how “free” I am in my response to them. I certainly have to hold back. So it is a mix or “freeness” and lack of freeness as, I might add, pretty much everything likely is. Edit - chuck I’m wondering if we have different definitions of “chance”. Dictionary says “the occurrence and development of events in the absence of any obvious design”. A lot of things might appear to be by chance simply because we don’t understand them yet. I think there might be something in that. If there is no free will how would we be responsible for our "choices" then? Are we? Just how different could you be if you chose to? We can only make decisions with information that occurs to us at the time. If we don't have access to certain information that allow us to choose differently, how much can we be different. I'm not saying that people should have a free ride to do whatever they want, that's not what this says. We still need to be held accountable. We still are going to be removed from society if we are a danger to it. We will still not be a friend with someone we have harmed in anyway etc. The difference is how we would view the behavior and understand that while we don't like the behavior and for our own good we need to distance ourselves, we also understand that the person that has harmed us isn't completely to blame because their behavior is a product of many things that they use to make decisions. I don't know. I'm just trying to process it like everyone else. But it is possible and if it is true, it could change how we view each other. Allow for more forgiveness even though we have to lock them up or distance ourselves from them in some way.
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Post by Dan on Nov 18, 2022 0:24:31 GMT -5
No one can control your mind, but of course they can put pressure on you to accept what they think and believe. While its difficult to freely make decisions when someone else controls and influences you, especially when your young, we are all ultimately responsible to escape 'group think' and make independent decisions. Glad your in the process of escaping that mental prison and are now seeking answers for yourself. Also glad to hear that you don't oppose Christ himself, but just the religious fanatics, who I agree can be preposterous.
It works in reverse too. I imagine if you who grew-up with a couple of morally deprived drunks for parents, who were also atheist that indoctrinated you to believe in nothing, you might find hearing the gospel to be somewhat liberating. In which case, Christianity would be a new mindset that would clear your head of all the learned clutter. "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). Good luck with your quest for answers.
Dan if you want to understand why I am angry about religion I think Sam Harris explains it quite well in this YouTube video. Religion is divisive and frankly dangerous! I thought about opening act when Sam was talking about how fanatical/radical /fundamentalist religion is obviously dangerous but moderate religion is possibly just as dangerous. For some reason we excuse abandoning the use of logic/reason when it comes to religion. Something we would not do in any other area of our lives in these days. It is really quite preposterous! I hope you will listen but doubt that you will. It’s strong medicine. Oops forgot to post the link. youtube.com/watch?v=06pSJJaoEsQ&feature=shareThis is a different video (the topic is religion) than the one I posted on free will although he does touch on this again.
I watched the first video, so I get what your saying. Some religion is dangerous, but the Truth is not, although it is divisive as Jesus warned. I don't agree with Harris in that believing something makes a person unreasonable or illogical, it just means they've accepted something that makes sense to them. Even though its a decision based on hope, belief, and faith, it doesn't imply that a person has abandoned commonsense.
I don't believe our decisions are unconsciously made, unless they emanate from dreamland . The first decision made by Eve was when she chose between what God and the serpent had told her. She contemplated her choices and made a decision, she was not pre-programmed or a victim of her mind. Of course our minds are just an organ created to process information, so a psycho, brain tumor, or dementia, can stymie its function. In Mark 5 Jesus healed a demon possessed man, so evil spirits can alter our perception of reality.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 18, 2022 4:51:06 GMT -5
I haven't watched the video yet but I will. As for free will, we all have a choice to do it or not, so we all have free will.
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Post by Annan on Nov 18, 2022 9:39:11 GMT -5
I haven't watched the video yet but I will. As for free will, we all have a choice to do it or not, so we all have free will. I didn’t watch the video, but from how it sounds, I believe it is a program I once saw on TV. Just might change your mind. I look at it as we all have different personalities and our brains are all wired differently. Some people are psychopaths because that’s simply how they’re wired. Do they have a choice in carrying out their crimes? I can see saying yes they do, but I can also see you saying no they can’t. It’s like when you’re hungry for something, you have to fulfill and satisfy that hunger. Of course you do have a choice to starve to death.
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Nov 18, 2022 10:47:28 GMT -5
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Post by verna on Nov 18, 2022 10:47:28 GMT -5
Dan if you want to understand why I am angry about religion I think Sam Harris explains it quite well in this YouTube video. Religion is divisive and frankly dangerous! I thought about opening act when Sam was talking about how fanatical/radical /fundamentalist religion is obviously dangerous but moderate religion is possibly just as dangerous. For some reason we excuse abandoning the use of logic/reason when it comes to religion. Something we would not do in any other area of our lives in these days. It is really quite preposterous! I hope you will listen but doubt that you will. It’s strong medicine. Oops forgot to post the link. youtube.com/watch?v=06pSJJaoEsQ&feature=shareThis is a different video (the topic is religion) than the one I posted on free will although he does touch on this again.
I watched the first video, so I get what your saying. Some religion is dangerous, but the Truth is not, although it is divisive as Jesus warned. I don't agree with Harris in that believing something makes a person unreasonable or illogical, it just means they've accepted something that makes sense to them. Even though its a decision based on hope, belief, and faith, it doesn't imply that a person has abandoned commonsense.
I don't believe our decisions are unconsciously made, unless they emanate from dreamland . The first decision made by Eve was when she chose between what God and the serpent had told her. She contemplated her choices and made a decision, she was not pre-programmed or a victim of her mind. Of course our minds are just an organ created to process information, so a psycho, brain tumor, or dementia, can stymie its function. In Mark 5 Jesus healed a demon possessed man, so evil spirits can alter our perception of reality. I am perplexed by this statement “some religion is dangerous, but the Truth is not”. Are you presuming you know “the truth”?
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Post by maryhig on Nov 18, 2022 12:29:17 GMT -5
I haven't watched the video yet but I will. As for free will, we all have a choice to do it or not, so we all have free will. I didn’t watch the video, but from how it sounds, I believe it is a program I once saw on TV. Just might change your mind. I look at it as we all have different personalities and our brains are all wired differently. Some people are psychopaths because that’s simply how they’re wired. Do they have a choice in carrying out their crimes? I can see saying yes they do, but I can also see you saying no they can’t. It’s like when you’re hungry for something, you have to fulfill and satisfy that hunger. Of course you do have a choice to starve to death. Yes they do have a choice, as do all of us. I also watched a program once, and it was saying how some murderers started by watching things on the Internet, and they started watching stuff and it got worse and worse until they got to the stage of killing people themselves. If they hadn't of carried on watching things on the Internet in the beginning, then maybe they wouldn't have gone on to kill. I believe that if I have a wrong thought then I have to try and nip it in the bud before it gets worse and do what's right instead. I have a choice whether I do things or not, I also think what would Jesus do. We all have free will, even Jesus had free will as he said to the father not my will but thy will be done. And God's will was for Jesus to bare witness to the truth, for him to come and show us and teach us how to live before God.
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Nov 18, 2022 12:48:32 GMT -5
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Post by Annan on Nov 18, 2022 12:48:32 GMT -5
I didn’t watch the video, but from how it sounds, I believe it is a program I once saw on TV. Just might change your mind. I look at it as we all have different personalities and our brains are all wired differently. Some people are psychopaths because that’s simply how they’re wired. Do they have a choice in carrying out their crimes? I can see saying yes they do, but I can also see you saying no they can’t. It’s like when you’re hungry for something, you have to fulfill and satisfy that hunger. Of course you do have a choice to starve to death. Yes they do have a choice, as do all of us. I also watched a program once, and it was saying how some murderers started by watching things on the Internet, and they started watching stuff and it got worse and worse until they got to the stage of killing people themselves. If they hadn't of carried on watching things on the Internet in the beginning, then maybe they wouldn't have gone on to kill. I believe that if I have a wrong thought then I have to try and nip it in the bud before it gets worse and do what's right instead. I have a choice whether I do things or not, I also think what would Jesus do. We all have free will, even Jesus had free will as he said to the father not my will but thy will be done. And God's will was for Jesus to bare witness to the truth, for him to come and show us and teach us how to live before God. I understand your position and respect it. I’m very much science minded and disagree fundamentally. All good.
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2022 14:03:49 GMT -5
I didn’t watch the video, but from how it sounds, I believe it is a program I once saw on TV. Just might change your mind. I look at it as we all have different personalities and our brains are all wired differently. Some people are psychopaths because that’s simply how they’re wired. Do they have a choice in carrying out their crimes? I can see saying yes they do, but I can also see you saying no they can’t. It’s like when you’re hungry for something, you have to fulfill and satisfy that hunger. Of course you do have a choice to starve to death. Yes they do have a choice, as do all of us. I also watched a program once, and it was saying how some murderers started by watching things on the Internet, and they started watching stuff and it got worse and worse until they got to the stage of killing people themselves. If they hadn't of carried on watching things on the Internet in the beginning, then maybe they wouldn't have gone on to kill. I believe that if I have a wrong thought then I have to try and nip it in the bud before it gets worse and do what's right instead. I have a choice whether I do things or not, I also think what would Jesus do. We all have free will, even Jesus had free will as he said to the father not my will but thy will be done. And God's will was for Jesus to bare witness to the truth, for him to come and show us and teach us how to live before God. Choice is only available to everyone based on what they have access to as far as information, brain processes etc. Sure we choose things based on what we know, but there are better options that we can't choose from because we never had access to that information to make a better choice. So free will is limited in that sense.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 18, 2022 16:56:11 GMT -5
Yes they do have a choice, as do all of us. I also watched a program once, and it was saying how some murderers started by watching things on the Internet, and they started watching stuff and it got worse and worse until they got to the stage of killing people themselves. If they hadn't of carried on watching things on the Internet in the beginning, then maybe they wouldn't have gone on to kill. I believe that if I have a wrong thought then I have to try and nip it in the bud before it gets worse and do what's right instead. I have a choice whether I do things or not, I also think what would Jesus do. We all have free will, even Jesus had free will as he said to the father not my will but thy will be done. And God's will was for Jesus to bare witness to the truth, for him to come and show us and teach us how to live before God. Choice is only available to everyone based on what they have access to as far as information, brain processes etc. Sure we choose things based on what we know, but there are better options that we can't choose from because we never had access to that information to make a better choice. So free will is limited in that sense. I'm talking about when we know, if we know that something is wrong to do then we have a choice, we either do it or not, that's freewill. And we also have a conscience that guides us to do what's right, it's then whether we listen to it or not.
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Post by Dan on Nov 18, 2022 17:00:04 GMT -5
I watched the first video, so I get what your saying. Some religion is dangerous, but the Truth is not, although it is divisive as Jesus warned. I don't agree with Harris in that believing something makes a person unreasonable or illogical, it just means they've accepted something that makes sense to them. Even though its a decision based on hope, belief, and faith, it doesn't imply that a person has abandoned commonsense.
I don't believe our decisions are unconsciously made, unless they emanate from dreamland . The first decision made by Eve was when she chose between what God and the serpent had told her. She contemplated her choices and made a decision, she was not pre-programmed or a victim of her mind. Of course our minds are just an organ created to process information, so a psycho, brain tumor, or dementia, can stymie its function. In Mark 5 Jesus healed a demon possessed man, so evil spirits can alter our perception of reality. I am perplexed by this statement “some religion is dangerous, but the Truth is not”. Are you presuming you know “the truth”?
Absolutely.... Jesus said, "I am the Truth", and since I know Jesus, I know the truth.
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Post by verna on Nov 18, 2022 17:46:23 GMT -5
I am perplexed by this statement “some religion is dangerous, but the Truth is not”. Are you presuming you know “the truth”?
Absolutely.... Jesus said, "I am the Truth", and since I know Jesus, I know the truth.
So you do not accept the dictionary definition of truth as “ that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality”? And are instead defining truth as “Jesus”. I’m sorry Dan this is bizarre in my opinion. I don’t know how you can be open minded with this pre-determined mindset.
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2022 17:53:02 GMT -5
Choice is only available to everyone based on what they have access to as far as information, brain processes etc. Sure we choose things based on what we know, but there are better options that we can't choose from because we never had access to that information to make a better choice. So free will is limited in that sense. I'm talking about when we know, if we know that something is wrong to do then we have a choice, we either do it or not, that's freewill. And we also have a conscience that guides us to do what's right, it's then whether we listen to it or not. I agree with that. I understand what you're saying. I'm just pointing out that all our decisions are based on what we know, what occurs to us as a choice etc. Sometimes we can't access in the moment a certain choice, and when that happens we don't have the free will to choose it. It has to be available to choose from in the moment.
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Post by snow on Nov 18, 2022 17:56:18 GMT -5
I am perplexed by this statement “some religion is dangerous, but the Truth is not”. Are you presuming you know “the truth”? Absolutely.... Jesus said, "I am the Truth", and since I know Jesus, I know the truth.
There is actually no proof that Jesus is Truth. People say that because he said so. That's not exactly a good reason to believe someone. I do understand that you believe in Jesus, but you only have his biased opinion of himself. In real life I'm sure you don't just take someone's word for it when they say "I am the Truth'. In fact, I would bet you would actually think them to be off the wall for saying such a thing.
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Post by Dan on Nov 19, 2022 0:43:27 GMT -5
Absolutely.... Jesus said, "I am the Truth", and since I know Jesus, I know the truth.
So you do not accept the dictionary definition of truth as “ that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality”? And are instead defining truth as “Jesus”. I’m sorry Dan this is bizarre in my opinion. I don’t know how you can be open minded with this pre-determined mindset.
The truth is that which is true. What did Jesus say that was false? Of course its accepted by faith, but one reason its been received by billions of open-minded people is because they've found nothing fake, misleading, or untrue about Christ. A lie can be proven false, but the truth cannot. Its not a predetermined mindset, but a conclusion based on close examination of everything Christ said, did, and proclaimed himself to be.
The Truth doesn't need proof, it either is or isn't.. Jesus did more than speak the truth, he was the truth (noun). That to me is a good reason to believe someone. The truth is never biased, that just isn't possible. And the truth is not an opinion either. I've never met anyone who never told a lie, and since everyone lies, they are not the truth.. God said, "I AM THAT I AM", no one else can say that. Likewise, "I am the Truth" can only be proclaimed by God.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 19, 2022 1:04:05 GMT -5
So you do not accept the dictionary definition of truth as “ that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality”? And are instead defining truth as “Jesus”. I’m sorry Dan this is bizarre in my opinion. I don’t know how you can be open minded with this pre-determined mindset. The truth is that which is true. What did Jesus say that was false? Of course its accepted by faith, but one reason its been received by billions of open-minded people is because they've found nothing fake, misleading, or untrue about Christ. A lie can be proven false, but the truth cannot. Its not a predetermined mindset, but a conclusion based on close examination of everything Christ said, did, and proclaimed himself to be.
The Truth doesn't need proof, it either is or isn't.. Jesus did more than speak the truth, he was the truth (noun). That to me is a good reason to believe someone. The truth is never biased, that just isn't possible. And the truth is not an opinion either. I've never met anyone who never told a lie, and since everyone lies, they are not the truth.. God said, "I AM THAT I AM", no one else can say that. Likewise, "I am the Truth" can only be proclaimed by God.
Well, that doesn't seem to be open for discussion, does it?
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Post by Dan on Nov 19, 2022 2:07:27 GMT -5
Well, that doesn't seem to be open for discussion, does it?
The truth can be denied, denounced, defied, disobeyed, or discussed, but it need not be defended.
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Free Will
Nov 19, 2022 11:35:11 GMT -5
via mobile
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Post by verna on Nov 19, 2022 11:35:11 GMT -5
So you do not accept the dictionary definition of truth as “ that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality”? And are instead defining truth as “Jesus”. I’m sorry Dan this is bizarre in my opinion. I don’t know how you can be open minded with this pre-determined mindset.
The truth is that which is true. What did Jesus say that was false? Of course its accepted by faith, but one reason its been received by billions of open-minded people is because they've found nothing fake, misleading, or untrue about Christ. A lie can be proven false, but the truth cannot. Its not a predetermined mindset, but a conclusion based on close examination of everything Christ said, did, and proclaimed himself to be.
The Truth doesn't need proof, it either is or isn't.. Jesus did more than speak the truth, he was the truth (noun). That to me is a good reason to believe someone. The truth is never biased, that just isn't possible. And the truth is not an opinion either. I've never met anyone who never told a lie, and since everyone lies, they are not the truth.. God said, "I AM THAT I AM", no one else can say that. Likewise, "I am the Truth" can only be proclaimed by God.
Ok I can see you just want to spout the party line. Enough said.
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Post by snow on Nov 19, 2022 13:31:18 GMT -5
So you do not accept the dictionary definition of truth as “ that which is true or in accordance with fact or reality”? And are instead defining truth as “Jesus”. I’m sorry Dan this is bizarre in my opinion. I don’t know how you can be open minded with this pre-determined mindset. The truth is that which is true. What did Jesus say that was false? Of course its accepted by faith, but one reason its been received by billions of open-minded people is because they've found nothing fake, misleading, or untrue about Christ. A lie can be proven false, but the truth cannot. Its not a predetermined mindset, but a conclusion based on close examination of everything Christ said, did, and proclaimed himself to be.
The Truth doesn't need proof, it either is or isn't.. Jesus did more than speak the truth, he was the truth (noun). That to me is a good reason to believe someone. The truth is never biased, that just isn't possible. And the truth is not an opinion either. I've never met anyone who never told a lie, and since everyone lies, they are not the truth.. God said, "I AM THAT I AM", no one else can say that. Likewise, "I am the Truth" can only be proclaimed by God.
Well now I understand a bit better how you process things. Truth does not need proof? That is actually the way truth is determined. You need proof for it to be 'truth'. Otherwise it is just supposition, belief etc.
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