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Post by maryhig on Nov 19, 2022 15:12:01 GMT -5
Jesus is the truth in that he preached and lived the truth out and he is our example to follow. Jesus said this
John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
He said those of the truth hear his voice, so he spoke the truth full of wisdom and he lived it out, showing and teaching the true way. And his way is the way to follow and the way to live before God.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 19, 2022 15:23:54 GMT -5
I'm talking about when we know, if we know that something is wrong to do then we have a choice, we either do it or not, that's freewill. And we also have a conscience that guides us to do what's right, it's then whether we listen to it or not. I agree with that. I understand what you're saying. I'm just pointing out that all our decisions are based on what we know, what occurs to us as a choice etc. Sometimes we can't access in the moment a certain choice, and when that happens we don't have the free will to choose it. It has to be available to choose from in the moment. God forgives ignorance, but we will all be judged on what we do right and wrong, good and bad especially once we know the truth. And the teachings of Jesus are the truth and those who follow him and love God abide by them and live as he taught us to live in word and deed. I see some Christian churches teach that once they are saved that's it, it doesn't matter what they do after that they are ok and going to heaven regardless of what they do wrong because Jesus died on the cross for all their sins and all their sins are forgiven, past, present and future, no matter what. They are teaching a false doctrine, we have to turn from our sinful ways and try to do what's right before God. And we have free will to decide what to do once we know right from wrong.
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Post by verna on Nov 19, 2022 15:27:00 GMT -5
The truth is that which is true. What did Jesus say that was false? Of course its accepted by faith, but one reason its been received by billions of open-minded people is because they've found nothing fake, misleading, or untrue about Christ. A lie can be proven false, but the truth cannot. Its not a predetermined mindset, but a conclusion based on close examination of everything Christ said, did, and proclaimed himself to be.
The Truth doesn't need proof, it either is or isn't.. Jesus did more than speak the truth, he was the truth (noun). That to me is a good reason to believe someone. The truth is never biased, that just isn't possible. And the truth is not an opinion either. I've never met anyone who never told a lie, and since everyone lies, they are not the truth.. God said, "I AM THAT I AM", no one else can say that. Likewise, "I am the Truth" can only be proclaimed by God.
Well now I understand a bit better how you process things. Truth does not need proof? That is actually the way truth is determined. You need proof for it to be 'truth'. Otherwise it is just supposition, belief etc. No doubt Dan has a different definition for the word “proof”. It is pretty hard to communicate if we do not share meaning of words. Anyway I am just completely baffled. Dan said he was happy that I was questioning and even posted a meme of Jesus (at least I assume that’s who that bearded guy was supposed to represent) saying that he wants us to question. But apparently Jesus and his supposed words are exempt? To me this is mental captivity. Truth should stand up to questioning, not be exempt from it.
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Free Will
Nov 19, 2022 15:40:10 GMT -5
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Post by verna on Nov 19, 2022 15:40:10 GMT -5
I agree with that. I understand what you're saying. I'm just pointing out that all our decisions are based on what we know, what occurs to us as a choice etc. Sometimes we can't access in the moment a certain choice, and when that happens we don't have the free will to choose it. It has to be available to choose from in the moment. God forgives ignorance, but we will all be judged on what we do right and wrong, good and bad especially once we know the truth. And the teachings of Jesus are the truth and those who follow him and love God abide by them and live as he taught us to live in word and deed. I see some Christian churches teach that once they are saved that's it, it doesn't matter what they do after that they are ok and going to heaven regardless of what they do wrong because Jesus died on the cross for all their sins and all their sins are forgiven, past, present and future, no matter what. They are teaching a false doctrine, we have to turn from our sinful ways and try to do what's right before God. And we have free will to decide what to do once we know right from wrong. I have respect for you Maryhig because you have always conducted yourself in a respectful manner. But I disagree. I have always felt kind of curious about people who are so convinced of their ability to “control” their thinking and behaviour. I have, I’m sure, been influenced by my early experience with particularly ferocious intrusive thoughts (I should add I was fully confident in and subservient to God and Jesus at that time). Anyway on a slightly different note I was listening to a holistic medicine practitioner talking about how often people say that if they were to be diagnosed with cancer they would be able to heal themselves with positive thinking and life changes. His response was “you can’t even keep yourself from eating that bloody chocolate bar! So much for will power. I am much less convinced of the power of our will than you are - with or without God’s help. I don’t think we will be judged by that quality. I do however strongly advocate for being kind and will make every effort to do this no matter how many times a day I fall down in this respect. I hope others will do the same.
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Post by snow on Nov 19, 2022 16:32:54 GMT -5
I agree with that. I understand what you're saying. I'm just pointing out that all our decisions are based on what we know, what occurs to us as a choice etc. Sometimes we can't access in the moment a certain choice, and when that happens we don't have the free will to choose it. It has to be available to choose from in the moment. God forgives ignorance, but we will all be judged on what we do right and wrong, good and bad especially once we know the truth. And the teachings of Jesus are the truth and those who follow him and love God abide by them and live as he taught us to live in word and deed. I see some Christian churches teach that once they are saved that's it, it doesn't matter what they do after that they are ok and going to heaven regardless of what they do wrong because Jesus died on the cross for all their sins and all their sins are forgiven, past, present and future, no matter what. They are teaching a false doctrine, we have to turn from our sinful ways and try to do what's right before God. And we have free will to decide what to do once we know right from wrong. One other teaching I find to be very disgusting is that if when you're dying and you 'give your life to Jesus' then no matter what you did in life (murder etc) you automatically have a free pass to heaven. That would mean there would be a lot of murderers and rapists in heaven just because they decided in their last breath "I give myself to Jesus". No wonder these theists believe that it doesn't matter how you are in life, you can be saved at the last minute. It's dangerous thinking, a danger to society etc.
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Post by snow on Nov 19, 2022 16:37:24 GMT -5
Well now I understand a bit better how you process things. Truth does not need proof? That is actually the way truth is determined. You need proof for it to be 'truth'. Otherwise it is just supposition, belief etc. No doubt Dan has a different definition for the word “proof”. It is pretty hard to communicate if we do not share meaning of words. Anyway I am just completely baffled. Dan said he was happy that I was questioning and even posted a meme of Jesus (at least I assume that’s who that bearded guy was supposed to represent) saying that he wants us to question. But apparently Jesus and his supposed words are exempt? To me this is mental captivity. Truth should stand up to questioning, not be exempt from it. Yes that did confuse me also. Truth isn't something to question. For example I know for sure that if I quit breathing I will die. That is what is called an absolute truth and no one would ever question if that was true. Not if they wanted to live anyway. If we can't use the dictionary definition of words then we can't communicate. The definition of Truth is that it is something that has been established with proof.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 19, 2022 16:59:22 GMT -5
Well, that doesn't seem to be open for discussion, does it? The truth can be denied, denounced, defied, disobeyed, or discussed, but it need not be defended.
How silly. So why was Obama asked to defend the truth of his citizenship?
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 19, 2022 17:00:33 GMT -5
The truth is that which is true. What did Jesus say that was false? Of course its accepted by faith, but one reason its been received by billions of open-minded people is because they've found nothing fake, misleading, or untrue about Christ. A lie can be proven false, but the truth cannot. Its not a predetermined mindset, but a conclusion based on close examination of everything Christ said, did, and proclaimed himself to be.
The Truth doesn't need proof, it either is or isn't.. Jesus did more than speak the truth, he was the truth (noun). That to me is a good reason to believe someone. The truth is never biased, that just isn't possible. And the truth is not an opinion either. I've never met anyone who never told a lie, and since everyone lies, they are not the truth.. God said, "I AM THAT I AM", no one else can say that. Likewise, "I am the Truth" can only be proclaimed by God.
Ok I can see you just want to spout the party line. Enough said. Yet he disassociated himself from the party -- ironically. Something doesn't add up there.
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 19, 2022 17:03:39 GMT -5
The truth is that which is true. What did Jesus say that was false? Of course its accepted by faith, but one reason its been received by billions of open-minded people is because they've found nothing fake, misleading, or untrue about Christ. A lie can be proven false, but the truth cannot. Its not a predetermined mindset, but a conclusion based on close examination of everything Christ said, did, and proclaimed himself to be.
The Truth doesn't need proof, it either is or isn't.. Jesus did more than speak the truth, he was the truth (noun). That to me is a good reason to believe someone. The truth is never biased, that just isn't possible. And the truth is not an opinion either. I've never met anyone who never told a lie, and since everyone lies, they are not the truth.. God said, "I AM THAT I AM", no one else can say that. Likewise, "I am the Truth" can only be proclaimed by God.
Well now I understand a bit better how you process things. Truth does not need proof? That is actually the way truth is determined. You need proof for it to be 'truth'. Otherwise it is just supposition, belief etc. When the truth is not allowed to be proven, then what defense does anyone have against the deception of a lie?
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Post by BobWilliston on Nov 19, 2022 17:19:54 GMT -5
Jesus is the truth in that he preached and lived the truth out and he is our example to follow. Jesus said this John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. He said those of the truth hear his voice, so he spoke the truth full of wisdom and he lived it out, showing and teaching the true way. And his way is the way to follow and the way to live before God. Ironically, this whole statement is abstraction and philosophical jargon. It can be discussed and believed endlessly without ever being submitted to an iota of anything empirical. It's "worth" is entirely commensurate with one's need to enter into an investment in an emotional soundness.
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Post by Dan on Nov 19, 2022 23:07:04 GMT -5
Well now I understand a bit better how you process things. Truth does not need proof? That is actually the way truth is determined. You need proof for it to be 'truth'. Otherwise it is just supposition, belief etc.
Yes, a truth can be true before its ever proven to be so. A couple centuries ago, man walking on the moon was a lie because it was unproven and considered impossible. So I'm not sure we can trust your methodology of determining what's true.
No doubt Dan has a different definition for the word “proof”. It is pretty hard to communicate if we do not share meaning of words. Anyway I am just completely baffled. Dan said he was happy that I was questioning and even posted a meme of Jesus (at least I assume that’s who that bearded guy was supposed to represent) saying that he wants us to question. But apparently Jesus and his supposed words are exempt? To me this is mental captivity. Truth should stand up to questioning, not be exempt from it. I was defining 'truth', not 'proof'.. You should question everything, but there's no guarantee you'll be satisfied with the answers. The proof of the Truth was manifested in Christ and recorded by eye witnesses. If you were on a jury and had affidavits from 4 eyewitnesses all testifying to the same thing, you'd likely believe them? But you cannot prove a spiritual reality with physical evidence, belief is a necessity.
Yes that did confuse me also. Truth isn't something to question. For example I know for sure that if I quit breathing I will die. That is what is called an absolute truth and no one would ever question if that was true. Not if they wanted to live anyway. If we can't use the dictionary definition of words then we can't communicate. The definition of Truth is that it is something that has been established with proof.
Jesus quit breathing and yet he lives, so he defied your absolute truth. Gravity holds you on the earth, but Jesus disproved that physical absolute when he walked on water. Proof can be a confirmation of a truth, but its not a requirement.
The truth can be denied, denounced, defied, disobeyed, or discussed, but it need not be defended.
How silly. So why was Obama asked to defend the truth of his citizenship?
People lie, so we are often required to substantiate what we claim to be true. Not everyone had faith in Obama, so he was asked to authenticate where he was born. If one rose from the grave, I'd say that's ample authentification of who he was.
When the truth is not allowed to be proven, then what defense does anyone have against the deception of a lie?
The truth was proven when it was manifested in Christ. When that truth is embraced, you don't need any defense of a lie.
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Post by verna on Nov 19, 2022 23:11:46 GMT -5
Well now I understand a bit better how you process things. Truth does not need proof? That is actually the way truth is determined. You need proof for it to be 'truth'. Otherwise it is just supposition, belief etc.
Yes, a truth can be true before its ever proven to be so. A couple centuries ago, man walking on the moon was a lie because it was unproven and considered impossible. So I'm not sure we can trust your methodology of determining what's true.
No doubt Dan has a different definition for the word “proof”. It is pretty hard to communicate if we do not share meaning of words. Anyway I am just completely baffled. Dan said he was happy that I was questioning and even posted a meme of Jesus (at least I assume that’s who that bearded guy was supposed to represent) saying that he wants us to question. But apparently Jesus and his supposed words are exempt? To me this is mental captivity. Truth should stand up to questioning, not be exempt from it. I was defining 'truth', not 'proof'.. You should question everything, but there's no guarantee you'll be satisfied with the answers. The proof of the Truth was manifested in Christ and recorded by eye witnesses. If you were on a jury and had affidavits from 4 eyewitnesses all testifying to the same thing, you'd likely believe them? But you cannot prove a spiritual reality with physical evidence, belief is a necessity.
Yes that did confuse me also. Truth isn't something to question. For example I know for sure that if I quit breathing I will die. That is what is called an absolute truth and no one would ever question if that was true. Not if they wanted to live anyway. If we can't use the dictionary definition of words then we can't communicate. The definition of Truth is that it is something that has been established with proof.
Jesus quit breathing and yet he lives, so he defied your absolute truth. Gravity holds you on the earth, but Jesus disproved that physical absolute when he walked on water. Proof can be a confirmation of a truth, but its not a requirement.
How silly. So why was Obama asked to defend the truth of his citizenship?
People lie, so we are often required to substantiate what we claim to be true. Not everyone had faith in Obama, so he was asked to authenticate where he was born. If one rose from the grave, I'd say that's ample authentification of who he was.
When the truth is not allowed to be proven, then what defense does anyone have against the deception of a lie?
The truth was proven when it was manifested in Christ. When that truth is embraced, you don't need any defense of a lie.
You are making suppositions I cannot make.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2022 23:58:44 GMT -5
God forgives ignorance, but we will all be judged on what we do right and wrong, good and bad especially once we know the truth. And the teachings of Jesus are the truth and those who follow him and love God abide by them and live as he taught us to live in word and deed. I see some Christian churches teach that once they are saved that's it, it doesn't matter what they do after that they are ok and going to heaven regardless of what they do wrong because Jesus died on the cross for all their sins and all their sins are forgiven, past, present and future, no matter what. They are teaching a false doctrine, we have to turn from our sinful ways and try to do what's right before God. And we have free will to decide what to do once we know right from wrong. One other teaching I find to be very disgusting is that if when you're dying and you 'give your life to Jesus' then no matter what you did in life (murder etc) you automatically have a free pass to heaven. That would mean there would be a lot of murderers and rapists in heaven just because they decided in their last breath "I give myself to Jesus". No wonder these theists believe that it doesn't matter how you are in life, you can be saved at the last minute. It's dangerous thinking, a danger to society etc. God is just and knows who means it or not...
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Post by Dan on Nov 20, 2022 1:32:51 GMT -5
Yes, a truth can be true before its ever proven to be so. A couple centuries ago, man walking on the moon was a lie because it was unproven and considered impossible. So I'm not sure we can trust your methodology of determining what's true.
I was defining 'truth', not 'proof'.. You should question everything, but there's no guarantee you'll be satisfied with the answers. The proof of the Truth was manifested in Christ and recorded by eye witnesses. If you were on a jury and had affidavits from 4 eyewitnesses all testifying to the same thing, you'd likely believe them? But you cannot prove a spiritual reality with physical evidence, belief is a necessity.
Jesus quit breathing and yet he lives, so he defied your absolute truth. Gravity holds you on the earth, but Jesus disproved that physical absolute when he walked on water. Proof can be a confirmation of a truth, but its not a requirement.
People lie, so we are often required to substantiate what we claim to be true. Not everyone had faith in Obama, so he was asked to authenticate where he was born. If one rose from the grave, I'd say that's ample authentification of who he was.
The truth was proven when it was manifested in Christ. When that truth is embraced, you don't need any defense of a lie.
You are making suppositions I cannot make.
Yes, its not possible until one chooses to believe... I'm not saying its easy, but Jesus was either exactly who he claimed to be, or the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind. I go with the former. People get perplexed and think they can rationally figure it all out, but God will not prove himself because that would defeat the whole purpose of why we're here. I can tell you that I never had peace of mind until I convicted myself to the Truth. Doubts will always creep in and our biggest obstacle will always be ourselves, but letting go of what we think and completely trusting God is the only viable answer. There's no absolutes, we are called by faith, go with your heart.
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Post by verna on Nov 20, 2022 2:49:08 GMT -5
You are making suppositions I cannot make.
Yes, its not possible until one chooses to believe... I'm not saying its easy, but Jesus was either exactly who he claimed to be, or the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind. I go with the former. People get perplexed and think they can rationally figure it all out, but God will not prove himself because that would defeat the whole purpose of why we're here. I can tell you that I never had peace of mind until I convicted myself to the Truth. Doubts will always creep in and our biggest obstacle will always be ourselves, but letting go of what we think and completely trusting God is the only viable answer. There's no absolutes, we are called by faith, go with your heart.
I guess you forget Dan - most of us have tried it. I certainly did, at length and to the best of my ability. No peace. No joy. If these are the two choices I will have to go with the biggest hoax ever perpetrated. Edit - I am left to wonder why God gave you peace and not me. Does God favour some over others? Is this where you whip out the cliche “God works in mysterious ways”?
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Post by maryhig on Nov 20, 2022 3:45:58 GMT -5
God forgives ignorance, but we will all be judged on what we do right and wrong, good and bad especially once we know the truth. And the teachings of Jesus are the truth and those who follow him and love God abide by them and live as he taught us to live in word and deed. I see some Christian churches teach that once they are saved that's it, it doesn't matter what they do after that they are ok and going to heaven regardless of what they do wrong because Jesus died on the cross for all their sins and all their sins are forgiven, past, present and future, no matter what. They are teaching a false doctrine, we have to turn from our sinful ways and try to do what's right before God. And we have free will to decide what to do once we know right from wrong. I have respect for you Maryhig because you have always conducted yourself in a respectful manner. But I disagree. I have always felt kind of curious about people who are so convinced of their ability to “control” their thinking and behaviour. I have, I’m sure, been influenced by my early experience with particularly ferocious intrusive thoughts (I should add I was fully confident in and subservient to God and Jesus at that time). Anyway on a slightly different note I was listening to a holistic medicine practitioner talking about how often people say that if they were to be diagnosed with cancer they would be able to heal themselves with positive thinking and life changes. His response was “you can’t even keep yourself from eating that bloody chocolate bar! So much for will power. I am much less convinced of the power of our will than you are - with or without God’s help. I don’t think we will be judged by that quality. I do however strongly advocate for being kind and will make every effort to do this no matter how many times a day I fall down in this respect. I hope others will do the same. I can't do it all myself, but God has helped me change my ways. I'm totally different to what I was. God had been showing me where I go wrong and i have a choice, listen to him or carry on with what I'm doing. And as i listen to him my life changes for the better, the things I used to think so important don't matter to me anymore. He gave people a choice when he gave them the commandments, he doesn't make us to it, we have free will to choose to listen or not. As Joshua said, choose you this day whom you serve.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 20, 2022 3:47:45 GMT -5
God forgives ignorance, but we will all be judged on what we do right and wrong, good and bad especially once we know the truth. And the teachings of Jesus are the truth and those who follow him and love God abide by them and live as he taught us to live in word and deed. I see some Christian churches teach that once they are saved that's it, it doesn't matter what they do after that they are ok and going to heaven regardless of what they do wrong because Jesus died on the cross for all their sins and all their sins are forgiven, past, present and future, no matter what. They are teaching a false doctrine, we have to turn from our sinful ways and try to do what's right before God. And we have free will to decide what to do once we know right from wrong. One other teaching I find to be very disgusting is that if when you're dying and you 'give your life to Jesus' then no matter what you did in life (murder etc) you automatically have a free pass to heaven. That would mean there would be a lot of murderers and rapists in heaven just because they decided in their last breath "I give myself to Jesus". No wonder these theists believe that it doesn't matter how you are in life, you can be saved at the last minute. It's dangerous thinking, a danger to society etc. I agree, but God looks at the heart so he will know who is trying to fool him and who isn't.
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Post by maryhig on Nov 20, 2022 3:50:13 GMT -5
Jesus is the truth in that he preached and lived the truth out and he is our example to follow. Jesus said this John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. He said those of the truth hear his voice, so he spoke the truth full of wisdom and he lived it out, showing and teaching the true way. And his way is the way to follow and the way to live before God. Ironically, this whole statement is abstraction and philosophical jargon. It can be discussed and believed endlessly without ever being submitted to an iota of anything empirical. It's "worth" is entirely commensurate with one's need to enter into an investment in an emotional soundness. Sorry Bob, I don't understand what you mean. You sound like Lee and its over my head as his posts are also sometimes.
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Post by Dan on Nov 20, 2022 12:48:23 GMT -5
Yes, its not possible until one chooses to believe... I'm not saying its easy, but Jesus was either exactly who he claimed to be, or the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on mankind. I go with the former. People get perplexed and think they can rationally figure it all out, but God will not prove himself because that would defeat the whole purpose of why we're here. I can tell you that I never had peace of mind until I convicted myself to the Truth. Doubts will always creep in and our biggest obstacle will always be ourselves, but letting go of what we think and completely trusting God is the only viable answer. There's no absolutes, we are called by faith, go with your heart.
I guess you forget Dan - most of us have tried it. I certainly did, at length and to the best of my ability. No peace. No joy. If these are the two choices I will have to go with the biggest hoax ever perpetrated.
No, most of the disgruntled people here tired a restrictive life style that separated them from the world. I've heard the complaints and have expressed some myself. Being confined to a life style that condemns anything that puts a smile on your face is what you tried. Now your put-off by anything religious, and that's understandable.
But Jesus didn't hide from the world, his message was front & center to any who would hear. His way is easy and his burden light, so your self-condemnation didn't emanate from him. Its not your ability to adhere to a set of rules that brings peace, joy, or contentment. Being Christian isn't something you try, its what you become, and its not something you qualify for, your abilities aren't a prerequisite to salvation.
Don't conflate any church doctrine with the simple truth. Do you really think Jesus cares if you wear shorts, kick a ball, watch a show, or let your hair down? No, he freed us from religious malarkey, his truth is liberating and it doesn't imprison us. Its a simple choice to keep his commandments, flee sin, and trust the Lord. I think you were preconditioned to conform to overbearing meaningless rules, you couldn't comply and didn't ever feel good enough, then the cap blew-off the steam kettle and you went berserk.
I hope you'll reconsider and recognize that your a spiritual being. Choosing to believe shouldn't conflict with the flesh or cause turmoil, it simply prioritizes our purpose, establishes why we're here, and what we live for.
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Post by Grant on Nov 20, 2022 12:58:36 GMT -5
I guess you forget Dan - most of us have tried it. I certainly did, at length and to the best of my ability. No peace. No joy. If these are the two choices I will have to go with the biggest hoax ever perpetrated. No, most of the disgruntled people here tired a restrictive life style that separated them from the world. I've heard the complaints and have expressed some myself. Being confined to a life style that condemns anything that puts a smile on your face is what you tried. Now your put-off by anything religious, and that's understandable.
But Jesus didn't hide from the world, his message was front & center to any who would hear. His way is easy and his burden light, so your self-condemnation didn't emanate from him. Its not your ability to adhere to a set of rules that brings peace, joy, or contentment. Being Christian isn't something you try, its what you become, and its not something you qualify for, your abilities aren't a prerequisite to salvation.
Don't conflate any church doctrine with the simple truth. Do you really think Jesus cares if you wear shorts, kick a ball, watch a show, or let your hair down? No, he freed us from religious malarkey, his truth is liberating and it doesn't imprison us. Its a simple choice to keep his commandments, flee sin, and trust the Lord. I think you were preconditioned to conform to overbearing meaningless rules, you couldn't comply and didn't ever feel good enough, then the cap blew-off the steam kettle and you went berserk. I hope you'll reconsider and recognize that your a spiritual being. Choosing to believe shouldn't conflict with the flesh or cause turmoil, it simply prioritizes our purpose, establishes why we're here, and what we live for.
Your post would be fine if you did not use loaded words like disgruntled. Also accusing someone as going berserk is not a kind word. If Verna agrees then that's fine but accusing people of being disgruntled because they no longer tolerate half truths is not a way to gather support. There are many reasons people left not just because of a restrictive lifestyle. Being lied to about the beginnings is a big one for many, a lie which Nathan tries to keep going. False teachings and for Christians the group claiming to be the truth when it is not.
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Post by Dan on Nov 20, 2022 13:03:09 GMT -5
Ironically, this whole statement is abstraction and philosophical jargon. It can be discussed and believed endlessly without ever being submitted to an iota of anything empirical. It's "worth" is entirely commensurate with one's need to enter into an investment in an emotional soundness. Sorry Bob, I don't understand what you mean. You sound like Lee and its over my head as his posts are also sometimes.
He's essentially saying that Jesus was teaching a philosophy, no proof just a theory. The purpose was to give people emotional security and peace of mind.
Bob apparently missed or doesn't accept the miracles, resurrection, etc... Jesus the philosopher, not the Savior. jmo
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Post by Dan on Nov 20, 2022 13:39:20 GMT -5
No, most of the disgruntled people here tired a restrictive life style that separated them from the world. I've heard the complaints and have expressed some myself. Being confined to a life style that condemns anything that puts a smile on your face is what you tried. Now your put-off by anything religious, and that's understandable.
But Jesus didn't hide from the world, his message was front & center to any who would hear. His way is easy and his burden light, so your self-condemnation didn't emanate from him. Its not your ability to adhere to a set of rules that brings peace, joy, or contentment. Being Christian isn't something you try, its what you become, and its not something you qualify for, your abilities aren't a prerequisite to salvation.
Don't conflate any church doctrine with the simple truth. Do you really think Jesus cares if you wear shorts, kick a ball, watch a show, or let your hair down? No, he freed us from religious malarkey, his truth is liberating and it doesn't imprison us. Its a simple choice to keep his commandments, flee sin, and trust the Lord. I think you were preconditioned to conform to overbearing meaningless rules, you couldn't comply and didn't ever feel good enough, then the cap blew-off the steam kettle and you went berserk. I hope you'll reconsider and recognize that your a spiritual being. Choosing to believe shouldn't conflict with the flesh or cause turmoil, it simply prioritizes our purpose, establishes why we're here, and what we live for.
Your post would be fine if you did not use loaded words like disgruntled. Also accusing someone as going berserk is not a kind word. If Verna agrees then that's fine but accusing people of being disgruntled because they no longer tolerate half truths is not a way to gather support. Most people leave a church because they were not happy or content, so saying they were disgruntled or dissatisfied is accurate. And from what Verna described in past post, she did hit the bar scene and flipped to the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Its not unusual for people to go a little nuts after adhering to restrictions for years. I went a little berserk myself after leaving. The people I'm referring to went from being Christians to atheist, so saying they were disgruntled is actually a polite way of saying that many were downright upset & angry.
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2022 13:44:28 GMT -5
Well now I understand a bit better how you process things. Truth does not need proof? That is actually the way truth is determined. You need proof for it to be 'truth'. Otherwise it is just supposition, belief etc.
Yes, a truth can be true before its ever proven to be so. A couple centuries ago, man walking on the moon was a lie because it was unproven and considered impossible. So I'm not sure we can trust your methodology of determining what's true.
No doubt Dan has a different definition for the word “proof”. It is pretty hard to communicate if we do not share meaning of words. Anyway I am just completely baffled. Dan said he was happy that I was questioning and even posted a meme of Jesus (at least I assume that’s who that bearded guy was supposed to represent) saying that he wants us to question. But apparently Jesus and his supposed words are exempt? To me this is mental captivity. Truth should stand up to questioning, not be exempt from it. I was defining 'truth', not 'proof'.. You should question everything, but there's no guarantee you'll be satisfied with the answers. The proof of the Truth was manifested in Christ and recorded by eye witnesses. If you were on a jury and had affidavits from 4 eyewitnesses all testifying to the same thing, you'd likely believe them? But you cannot prove a spiritual reality with physical evidence, belief is a necessity.
Yes that did confuse me also. Truth isn't something to question. For example I know for sure that if I quit breathing I will die. That is what is called an absolute truth and no one would ever question if that was true. Not if they wanted to live anyway. If we can't use the dictionary definition of words then we can't communicate. The definition of Truth is that it is something that has been established with proof. Jesus quit breathing and yet he lives, so he defied your absolute truth. Gravity holds you on the earth, but Jesus disproved that physical absolute when he walked on water. Proof can be a confirmation of a truth, but its not a requirement.
How silly. So why was Obama asked to defend the truth of his citizenship? People lie, so we are often required to substantiate what we claim to be true. Not everyone had faith in Obama, so he was asked to authenticate where he was born. If one rose from the grave, I'd say that's ample authentification of who he was.
When the truth is not allowed to be proven, then what defense does anyone have against the deception of a lie? The truth was proven when it was manifested in Christ. When that truth is embraced, you don't need any defense of a lie.
If a truth does not have to have proof then anything can be defined as 'truth. And, you confirmed that when you said that Jesus continued to live after he quit breathing. That is one of the most deluded things I have heard yet from theists. If you quit breathing you die Dan. That is absolute truth. What you believe about Jesus is not truth it's belief. It takes faith to believe in something that is categorically impossible in the world we live in and we have absolutely no proof that there is any other realm after death. That is belief based on faith, not proof or truth. Believing truth doesn't need proof is a dangerous mindset and it results in the Q crowd and other cults.
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2022 13:50:46 GMT -5
One other teaching I find to be very disgusting is that if when you're dying and you 'give your life to Jesus' then no matter what you did in life (murder etc) you automatically have a free pass to heaven. That would mean there would be a lot of murderers and rapists in heaven just because they decided in their last breath "I give myself to Jesus". No wonder these theists believe that it doesn't matter how you are in life, you can be saved at the last minute. It's dangerous thinking, a danger to society etc. God is just and knows who means it or not... I don't give a hoot whether or not they 'mean it'. They already proved what they were like, broke all of your god's rules. Just because they decide in their last breath to use 'give their life to Jesus (which was over btw) they get to be in heaven while people who were good decent people all their lives, were compassionate and kind, helped people, get to go to hell and be tortured for eternity. Thankfully it's all a bunch of nonsense, but if it were actually true it proves just how monstrous that god is and how messed up his 'rule' truly is.
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Post by Grant on Nov 20, 2022 13:52:46 GMT -5
Your post would be fine if you did not use loaded words like disgruntled. Also accusing someone as going berserk is not a kind word. If Verna agrees then that's fine but accusing people of being disgruntled because they no longer tolerate half truths is not a way to gather support. Most people leave a church because they were not happy or content, so saying they were disgruntled or dissatisfied is accurate. And from what Verna described in past post, she did hit the bar scene and flipped to the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Its not unusual for people to go a little nuts after adhering to restrictions for years. I went a little berserk myself after leaving. The people I'm referring to went from being Christians to atheist, so saying they were disgruntled is actually a polite way of saying that many were downright upset & angry.
Dissatisfied is a more pleasant word than disgruntled but they usually have a valid reason for how they feel. Anger is a healthy emotion when feeling you have been lied to all those years. It is a normal part of the grieving process and readjustment. I know a number who have to use your word, gone berserk for a period of time after leaving as they were unable to cope with the world. Having over restrictive boundaries growing up can be as bad as having none. We didn't know where the line was. I have not felt comfortable with the way you have minimized Vernas and others experiences growing up in the sect. Feeling dissatisfied is not limited to athiests but to those who become or remain Christians as well often due to the false teachings of the group. For others it's contributed to turning them off God altogether.
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2022 14:04:01 GMT -5
One other teaching I find to be very disgusting is that if when you're dying and you 'give your life to Jesus' then no matter what you did in life (murder etc) you automatically have a free pass to heaven. That would mean there would be a lot of murderers and rapists in heaven just because they decided in their last breath "I give myself to Jesus". No wonder these theists believe that it doesn't matter how you are in life, you can be saved at the last minute. It's dangerous thinking, a danger to society etc. I agree, but God looks at the heart so he will know who is trying to fool him and who isn't. This is something people believe and rely on because of what they have been taught. It's truly sad that they are being lied to if God doesn't really just take anyone who decides to use Pascal's wager to get into heaven because they were told it would work.
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Post by snow on Nov 20, 2022 14:12:03 GMT -5
Your post would be fine if you did not use loaded words like disgruntled. Also accusing someone as going berserk is not a kind word. If Verna agrees then that's fine but accusing people of being disgruntled because they no longer tolerate half truths is not a way to gather support. Most people leave a church because they were not happy or content, so saying they were disgruntled or dissatisfied is accurate. And from what Verna described in past post, she did hit the bar scene and flipped to the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Its not unusual for people to go a little nuts after adhering to restrictions for years. I went a little berserk myself after leaving. The people I'm referring to went from being Christians to atheist, so saying they were disgruntled is actually a polite way of saying that many were downright upset & angry.
That's proof you do not understand atheists at all. I left the group not because I was angry. I wasn't an atheist when I left, I still believed in that God and I also believed that only people who were part of the group went to heaven. I quit professing because of what I learned about that God in the OT. I was not going to worship an entity like that and I believed I was going to hell because I wouldn't worship him. I was 12 and indoctrinated so it's no surprise that's where my mind took me. Over the years I have slowly gone from that belief to agnostic and pantheist to atheist to anti theist. It was a journey. I could probably sit in church and say all the things people want to hear, but there is absolutely no way I could do that and it not be a lie. I have no way of believing in gods at all. It's not a choice unless I totally disregard everything I have learned that makes gods and an afterlife very improbable.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Nov 20, 2022 14:23:39 GMT -5
Your post would be fine if you did not use loaded words like disgruntled. Also accusing someone as going berserk is not a kind word. If Verna agrees then that's fine but accusing people of being disgruntled because they no longer tolerate half truths is not a way to gather support. Most people leave a church because they were not happy or content, so saying they were disgruntled or dissatisfied is accurate. And from what Verna described in past post, she did hit the bar scene and flipped to the complete opposite side of the spectrum. Its not unusual for people to go a little nuts after adhering to restrictions for years. I went a little berserk myself after leaving. The people I'm referring to went from being Christians to atheist, so saying they were disgruntled is actually a polite way of saying that many were downright upset & angry.
You do seem to know a lot about the motivations of people you do not know. When I left I still believed in a god, but not the 2x2 god. I had found out that he had feet of clay. For a time I went to another church. What changed my mind about god was this. The existence of our universe does not depend on the existence of your god.
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