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Post by Dan on Sept 25, 2022 22:33:18 GMT -5
You didn't fail, I kinda get it... I just wasn't subjected to everything that others experienced. I wasn't born into the Truth and was old enough to be objective. If I didn't agree with something, I simply didn't comply. But children don't have that option, so I better understand the resentment they may feel into adulthood. Its sad that they can't put it behind them and move on, but I guess in a sense its therapeutic to dwell on it, just like they do in AA meetings. And I certainly never implied that a victim of CSA was a whiner, I agree that they have every right to scream it from the roof tops.
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Post by verna on Sept 25, 2022 22:51:36 GMT -5
You didn't fail, I kinda get it... I just wasn't subjected to everything that others experienced. I wasn't born into the Truth and was old enough to be objective. If I didn't agree with something, I simply didn't comply. But children don't have that option, so I better understand the resentment they may feel into adulthood. Its sad that they can't put it behind them and move on, but I guess in a sense its therapeutic to dwell on it, just like they do in AA meetings. And I certainly never implied that a victim of CSA was a whiner, I agree that they have every right to scream it from the roof tops.
Dan I know you didn’t imply that a victim of CSA is a whiner. That’s the point! Because we know these days what damage it does to the psyche. (I said I was going to be sarcastic to make a point). Yet when you hear of people who suffered from other childhood trauma - like say spiritual/religious abuse - you doubt the trauma was significant. Maybe look up the effects of childhood trauma. You might see symptoms like some of us “whiners” exhibit. STRONG UNEXPLAINED REACTIONS TO SPECIFIC PEOPLE, LACK OF EASE IN CERTAIN PLACES, EXTREME EMOTIONAL SHIFTS, ATTACHMENT ISSUES, ANXIETY, CHILDISH REACTIONS, CONSISTENT EXHAUSTION, UNABLE TO COPE IN NORMAL STRESSFUL SITUATIONS |
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Post by Roselyn T on Sept 25, 2022 22:52:01 GMT -5
Exactly verna , considering both @wally and Dan were not born and raised in the 2x2s explains a lot imo. Some of us did not get a choice in being part of the 2x2s, with 4 generations of indoctrination passed down it was not as easy as "just leave". Also some males don't understand how much harder it was growing up as a female who was made to dress and look a certain way. You only have to look at the difference between the dress of the male and female Workers to see who stands out as "odd". Once you learn the whole thing is based on a lie and see the abuse that has gone on and been covered up for years you see why people can become bitter. I'm the 4th generation of professing people in my family, even though I was basically raised as an atheist till 11. Once I joined at 14 and my mom and sister joined a year later, ALL the 2x2/family rules were dumped in my lap all at once and I was expected to follow them. Confusing and more than a ton of weight on my shoulders to say the least. Your "Indoctrination" wasn't any worse than anyone else's that joined the 2x2's. @wally, I was actually 5th generation. I don't remember saying "my indoctrination" was any worse than others, as it has been pointed out there definitely were differences between families among the 2x2s and the strictness. So in a sense some of us were raised way more strict than others. Also you had a choice to join. Thinking about this, there has got to be different levels of indoctrination. You say you are 4th generation but was raised an atheist until you were 11, therefore you didn't have the indoctrination someone who is 4th generation born and raised had. You didn't have the pressure put on from the other generations to comply, you were raised the same as "worldly" people. |
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Post by Dan on Sept 25, 2022 23:17:50 GMT -5
You didn't fail, I kinda get it... I just wasn't subjected to everything that others experienced. I wasn't born into the Truth and was old enough to be objective. If I didn't agree with something, I simply didn't comply. But children don't have that option, so I better understand the resentment they may feel into adulthood. Its sad that they can't put it behind them and move on, but I guess in a sense its therapeutic to dwell on it, just like they do in AA meetings. And I certainly never implied that a victim of CSA was a whiner, I agree that they have every right to scream it from the roof tops.
Dan I know you didn’t imply that a victim of CSA is a whiner. That’s the point! Because we know these days what damage it does to the psyche. (I said I was going to be sarcastic to make a point). Yet when you hear of people who suffered from other childhood trauma - like say spiritual/religious abuse - you doubt the trauma was significant. Maybe look up the effects of childhood trauma. You might see symptoms like some of us “whiners” exhibit. STRONG UNEXPLAINED REACTIONS TO SPECIFIC PEOPLE, LACK OF EASE IN CERTAIN PLACES, EXTREME EMOTIONAL SHIFTS, ATTACHMENT ISSUES, ANXIETY, CHILDISH REACTIONS, CONSISTENT EXHAUSTION, UNABLE TO COPE IN NORMAL STRESSFUL SITUATIONS
No problemo, I like sarcastic people... And all the symptoms of a whiner that you listed (STRONG UNEXPLAINED REACTIONS TO SPECIFIC PEOPLE, LACK OF EASE IN CERTAIN PLACES, EXTREME EMOTIONAL SHIFTS, ATTACHMENT ISSUES, ANXIETY, CHILDISH REACTIONS, CONSISTENT EXHAUSTION, UNABLE TO COPE IN NORMAL STRESSFUL SITUATIONS) all describe me to a T... My God, I'm a whiner and didn't know it!!
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 25, 2022 23:48:03 GMT -5
I'm the 4th generation of professing people in my family, even though I was basically raised as an atheist till 11. Once I joined at 14 and my mom and sister joined a year later, ALL the 2x2/family rules were dumped in my lap all at once and I was expected to follow them. Confusing and more than a ton of weight on my shoulders to say the least. Your "Indoctrination" wasn't any worse than anyone else's that joined the 2x2's. @wally, I was actually 5th generation. I don't remember saying "my indoctrination" was any worse than others, as it has been pointed out there definitely were differences between families among the 2x2s and the strictness. So in a sense some of us were raised way more strict than others. Also you had a choice to join. Thinking about this, there has got to be different levels of indoctrination. You say you are 4th generation but was raised an atheist until you were 11, therefore you didn't have the indoctrination someone who is 4th generation born and raised had. You didn't have the pressure put on from the other generations to comply, you were raised the same as "worldly" people. People tend to discount what children learn before they ever get to go to school. I had parents who never pounded into me that "outsiders" were all going to hell. BUT, I had been in enough meetings to hear what everyone was saying, and there were a few people here and there who tell it "just like it is". Believe me, when I was 6 years old I knew exactly what a visitor would think of the 2-foot Christmas tree my parents let us play with.  Thankfully somehow I had the good sense to believe that people who disagreed with my parents should mind their own business. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Sept 25, 2022 23:57:43 GMT -5
You are saying Dimitri Tsafendas was one of the friends? From the article we can gather he was a Communist, Christian of some kind(2x2?), anti-apartheid, Rabble rouser, anti-racist, and mentally disturbed. Of all those activities Christian(2x2?) seems the least likely influence that caused him to murder the PM. So? You never met a lunatic 2x2 before? I know one or two sane ones but I thought lunatic was the norm for them. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 26, 2022 0:06:42 GMT -5
So? You never met a lunatic 2x2 before? Only after they get put in an old folks home... You know one such lunatic who's not in an old folks home.  |
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Post by verna on Sept 26, 2022 1:11:48 GMT -5
Dan I know you didn’t imply that a victim of CSA is a whiner. That’s the point! Because we know these days what damage it does to the psyche. (I said I was going to be sarcastic to make a point). Yet when you hear of people who suffered from other childhood trauma - like say spiritual/religious abuse - you doubt the trauma was significant. Maybe look up the effects of childhood trauma. You might see symptoms like some of us “whiners” exhibit. STRONG UNEXPLAINED REACTIONS TO SPECIFIC PEOPLE, LACK OF EASE IN CERTAIN PLACES, EXTREME EMOTIONAL SHIFTS, ATTACHMENT ISSUES, ANXIETY, CHILDISH REACTIONS, CONSISTENT EXHAUSTION, UNABLE TO COPE IN NORMAL STRESSFUL SITUATIONS
No problemo, I like sarcastic people... And all the symptoms of a whiner that you listed (STRONG UNEXPLAINED REACTIONS TO SPECIFIC PEOPLE, LACK OF EASE IN CERTAIN PLACES, EXTREME EMOTIONAL SHIFTS, ATTACHMENT ISSUES, ANXIETY, CHILDISH REACTIONS, CONSISTENT EXHAUSTION, UNABLE TO COPE IN NORMAL STRESSFUL SITUATIONS) all describe me to a T... My God, I'm a whiner and didn't know it!!
Surprise. Those are not manifestations of whiners but suggest repressed memories of trauma. Perhaps you need to do some personal investigation/reflection! |
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Post by chuck on Sept 26, 2022 6:31:17 GMT -5
I still don't see how the church could hurt someone? Maybe it consumed you and when you quit, you became an aimless empty vessel. You then wandered into things that were the polar opposite. If you can't understand how the Truth hurt you or why your convinced that it affected you so adversely, perhaps a closer inward examination would reveal that it was never the church in the first place? I'm just speculating of course, but I suspect you may have blamed any church that you might have been affiliated with for every negative thought? Why would a friendly and loving fellowship make you unhappy? Maybe you became overwhelmed because you put too much pressure on yourself and never felt good enough? I don't have the answers, but your overt reaction in assigning blame for all your past anguish seems misdirected.
People don't like it and leave for various reasons, but why harbor hostility towards something they're no longer involved with? Many people grew-up with alcoholic parents, suffered physical abuse, were unloved, mistreated, etc. So listening to the whiners crying in their beers because they had to wear a long skirt, couldn't watch TV, or go bowling, just seems trivial in comparison to people who've actually experienced genuine hardships.. jmo
Dan just because you dont see how the church could hurt someone does not mean the church has not and still does not hurt someone, it could just mean you cannot see it. I am all to familiar with the thought process of "everyone should see it like me" and if they can't something is wrong with them!. Regardless of whether my thought is correct or incorrect to approach it in this manner one has to elevate themselves above others, to do this is technically to be an "unbeliever" in the Christ character or an unbeliever in the Christ. |
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Post by Annan on Sept 26, 2022 7:57:49 GMT -5
A church is not a church without believers. Drives me crazy when people claim its not a religion that causes damage. Yes. It is. |
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Post by verna on Sept 26, 2022 8:53:35 GMT -5
A church is not a church without believers. Drives me crazy when people claim its not a religion that causes damage. Yes. It is. I agree Annan. And I believe the teachings were what got me. I actually believed them!!! Duh! |
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Post by Lee on Sept 26, 2022 9:30:32 GMT -5
Politics, like all things secular are a sideshow in 2x2ism. They’re above it all. Reagan was popular when I was growing up. Trump is like him but more like Buchanan. How are these “infecting” 2x2ism or the political theatre generally. Do you believe America was from God or man? Being ecclesiastically barricaded from the world, the workers think it’s of man. To say it’s “infected” is an acknowledgement of a deep state, that it’s not an organic process. I’m confused by your question (among other things) “is America from God or man?” Do you mean the land or the people or it’s constitution or it’s politics? You think America is from God I assume? Please explain. I don’t get it. Is America God’s chosen country or something? I think the anti tyrannical spirit of our government is of God. But I don’t think Americans are any more Gods people than the Jews are Gods people simply for being Jewish. That said, I think God has a plan for all Jews, even as he has a plan for all people. But the elect will be distinguished for being uniquely zealous for good ideas. |
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Post by Lee on Sept 26, 2022 9:34:54 GMT -5
And when I say ‘our government’, it’s clear Americans have different ideas of what government should and should not do. In enumerating the powers of government, and adopting a bill of rights, the framers of our constitution sought to protect us from our own “best” interests.
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Post by Lee on Sept 26, 2022 9:51:33 GMT -5
I’m confused by your question (among other things) “is America from God or man?” Do you mean the land or the people or it’s constitution or it’s politics? You think America is from God I assume? Please explain. I don’t get it. Is America God’s chosen country or something? I'm fairly confident that Lee is wrong because while it was widely believed that America first became a human habitat when people migrated across the Bering Sea 40,000 to 17,000 years ago, recent discoveries may have pushed those estimates back at least another 90,000 years. Because God has only been around for the last 6,000 years Americans are much older than that. Brain studies offer the most convincing evidence of long periods of evolutionary development of the human being. What’s not plausible to me about evolution theory, is that evolution is solely the result of organisms reacting to external stimuli. External stimuli had a source point, i.e. creation. Moreover, consciousness itself may well be an internal source point of creation, whereas the Holy Spirit directs the finer aspects of consciousness. In this book, Harville Hendrix briefly reviews the structure of our brains from an evolutionary biologists perspective, to better understand the complexities of relationships. www.goodreads.com/book/show/557014.Finding_Love |
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Post by Lee on Sept 26, 2022 10:07:51 GMT -5
Hyper emphasis of physical state over the spiritual state. General diminishing of critical thinking abilities, increasing level of meaningless distractions. Ontological abyss of western media and corporate culture. Today they don’t know the difference between men and women. I think the divide and dissonance between so called mainstream media and alternative media will continue. Also, the deep state will wear out the word “conspiracy”, in its effort to conceal its existence and influence. It will pivot increasingly to an open plot and government. People who have avoided critical thinking and awareness of the prevalence of dis and misinformation as a political and personal tool for power and gain, will find the reality threatening. I could argue your lack of ability to critically think, which makes the rest of your post potentially lacking in critical thought which then raises the question is your statement that we are entering a epistemological crisis founded with critical thought........... You could. Who killed JFK? It’s clear to me our government is subject to a cabal who believes their power is most efficiently expressed using smoke and mirrors. It’s clear to me they prejudice the fourth estate, the very window by which we get to “know” ourselves. Just like the power of those employing artificial optics in the 2x2. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2022 13:22:46 GMT -5
I was taking with a professing fellow, good friend of mine, about a variety of these types of issues once. At one point, he said "why aren't the friends able to have these kinds of open conversations?" In another instance, he said it was regrettable the stigma put on mental health.
I think a strong church history of these things combine to generate the exact kinds of conversations we see on this thread. It's not unique to the 2x2s - any exclusive and repressive legalistic church is bound to foster the same.
Things generally are getting better in the 2x2s, but things are generally getting better in society. I think the improvement in legalistic churches is largely (and ironically) a function of growing common secular driven morality and not some divine enlightenment by church leaders. Certainly church leaders could imagine they are more Godly than those before, but people's beliefs and moral codes are mostly a product of their culture. And culture (by definition) takes time to "cultivate". 2x2 "culture" is very new for a sect, and modern culture is changing quickly.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 26, 2022 17:50:09 GMT -5
A church is not a church without believers. Drives me crazy when people claim its not a religion that causes damage. Yes. It is. I actually agree with you. I make this feeble defense of church members who aren't personally responsible for promoting the group's abusive practices. To the extent that those people are cowed not to protest such abuses I suppose they're guilty too, but some just do not have the wherewithal to even mount a protest. Like the lone democrat in the Kremlin, I opine!!! |
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 26, 2022 17:53:22 GMT -5
I’m confused by your question (among other things) “is America from God or man?” Do you mean the land or the people or it’s constitution or it’s politics? You think America is from God I assume? Please explain. I don’t get it. Is America God’s chosen country or something? I think the anti tyrannical spirit of our government is of God. But I don’t think Americans are any more Gods people than the Jews are Gods people simply for being Jewish. That said, I think God has a plan for all Jews, even as he has a plan for all people. But the elect will be distinguished for being uniquely zealous for good ideas. Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 26, 2022 18:03:27 GMT -5
And when I say ‘our government’, it’s clear Americans have different ideas of what government should and should not do. In enumerating the powers of government, and adopting a bill of rights, the framers of our constitution sought to protect us from our own “best” interests. What a farcical, pharisaical, concept of civil "rights" -- the right of the government determine what is YOUR best interest. The bill of rights contains the rights of individuals, not the rights of government. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2022 19:08:48 GMT -5
And when I say ‘our government’, it’s clear Americans have different ideas of what government should and should not do. In enumerating the powers of government, and adopting a bill of rights, the framers of our constitution sought to protect us from our own “best” interests. The bill of rights contains the rights of individuals, not the rights of government. About time you admitted that... |
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 26, 2022 23:35:24 GMT -5
The bill of rights contains the rights of individuals, not the rights of government. About time you admitted that... Now you have to convince Lee of that. |
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Post by Dan on Sept 27, 2022 0:37:28 GMT -5
I still don't see how the church could hurt someone? Maybe it consumed you and when you quit, you became an aimless empty vessel. You then wandered into things that were the polar opposite. If you can't understand how the Truth hurt you or why your convinced that it affected you so adversely, perhaps a closer inward examination would reveal that it was never the church in the first place? I'm just speculating of course, but I suspect you may have blamed any church that you might have been affiliated with for every negative thought? Why would a friendly and loving fellowship make you unhappy? Maybe you became overwhelmed because you put too much pressure on yourself and never felt good enough? I don't have the answers, but your overt reaction in assigning blame for all your past anguish seems misdirected.
People don't like it and leave for various reasons, but why harbor hostility towards something they're no longer involved with? Many people grew-up with alcoholic parents, suffered physical abuse, were unloved, mistreated, etc. So listening to the whiners crying in their beers because they had to wear a long skirt, couldn't watch TV, or go bowling, just seems trivial in comparison to people who've actually experienced genuine hardships.. jmo
Dan just because you dont see how the church could hurt someone does not mean the church has not and still does not hurt someone, it could just mean you cannot see it. I am all to familiar with the thought process of "everyone should see it like me" and if they can't something is wrong with them!. Regardless of whether my thought is correct or incorrect to approach it in this manner one has to elevate themselves above others, to do this is technically to be an "unbeliever" in the Christ character or an unbeliever in the Christ.
How did the church hurt you? Not agreeing with them is not necessarily a source of pain. A spiritual disagreement can be contentious, but I can't see how one can be hurt by it. The habitual complainers didn't like the rules (modest dress, worldly separation, etc), but I still don't completely interpret that as being hurt. It is what it is, i.e; The Seventh Day Adventist keep the Saturday sabbath, if you were a member and wanted to work on Saturdays, would you do a public podcast and whine about how they ruined your life?
Every church can come off as supercilious, they all interpret scripture and establish doctrine as confirmation of being correct. But I don't think its done in arrogance, they all sincerely believe that they are right, and they can't very well alter what they preach and teach in order to please every contentious objection. No one elevates themselves above Christ, the ultimate objective is to see it like he did, and that's an impossible task for an unbeliever.
I can see how overzealous parents can interfere with a normal childhood, whereby causing some resentment later in life. But some of the podcast commentaries seemed exaggerated and painted the W&F as extremist and religious zealots. If you compare the Truth to the Mennonites or Amish, they'd come off as being pretty passive. So I prefer to keep things in perspective, most of the complainers just felt that the church was too strict and they didn't like conforming to the rules.
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Post by BobWilliston on Sept 27, 2022 0:53:26 GMT -5
Dan just because you dont see how the church could hurt someone does not mean the church has not and still does not hurt someone, it could just mean you cannot see it. I am all to familiar with the thought process of "everyone should see it like me" and if they can't something is wrong with them!. Regardless of whether my thought is correct or incorrect to approach it in this manner one has to elevate themselves above others, to do this is technically to be an "unbeliever" in the Christ character or an unbeliever in the Christ. How did the church hurt you? Not agreeing with them is not necessarily a source of pain. A spiritual disagreement can be contentious, but I can't see how one can be hurt by it. The habitual complainers didn't like the rules (modest dress, worldly separation, etc), but I still don't completely interpret that as being hurt. It is what it is, i.e; The Seventh Day Adventist keep the Saturday sabbath, if you were a member and wanted to work on Saturdays, would you do a public podcast and whine about how they ruined your life?
Every church can come off as supercilious, they all interpret scripture and establish doctrine as confirmation of being correct. But I don't think its done in arrogance, they all sincerely believe that they are right, and they can't very well alter what they preach and teach in order to please every contentious objection. No one elevates themselves above Christ, the ultimate objective is to see it like he did, and that's an impossible task for an unbeliever.
I can see how overzealous parents can interfere with a normal childhood, whereby causing some resentment later in life. But some of the podcast commentaries seemed exaggerated and painted the W&F as extremist and religious zealots. If you compare the Truth to the Mennonites or Amish, they'd come off as being pretty passive. So I prefer to keep things in perspective, most of the complainers just felt that the church was too strict and they didn't like conforming to the rules.
Dan, when you need to consult a doctor to regain your mental balance, you've been hurt. |
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Post by Dan on Sept 27, 2022 1:31:12 GMT -5
How did the church hurt you? Not agreeing with them is not necessarily a source of pain. A spiritual disagreement can be contentious, but I can't see how one can be hurt by it. The habitual complainers didn't like the rules (modest dress, worldly separation, etc), but I still don't completely interpret that as being hurt. It is what it is, i.e; The Seventh Day Adventist keep the Saturday sabbath, if you were a member and wanted to work on Saturdays, would you do a public podcast and whine about how they ruined your life?
Every church can come off as supercilious, they all interpret scripture and establish doctrine as confirmation of being correct. But I don't think its done in arrogance, they all sincerely believe that they are right, and they can't very well alter what they preach and teach in order to please every contentious objection. No one elevates themselves above Christ, the ultimate objective is to see it like he did, and that's an impossible task for an unbeliever.
I can see how overzealous parents can interfere with a normal childhood, whereby causing some resentment later in life. But some of the podcast commentaries seemed exaggerated and painted the W&F as extremist and religious zealots. If you compare the Truth to the Mennonites or Amish, they'd come off as being pretty passive. So I prefer to keep things in perspective, most of the complainers just felt that the church was too strict and they didn't like conforming to the rules.
Dan, when you need to consult a doctor to regain your mental balance, you've been hurt.
Yes... Your situation was unique. I understand that when attacks were lodged about your daughter and late wife, that would certainly be hurtful and grounds for anger. Lots of busy bodies and jibber jabber spreading lies would set anyone off. And when certain Workers fail to address situations and put it to rest, it would certainly shake your confidence in everything you held sacred and rattle the foundation of your core belief. I reckon if its necessary to solicit professional help to uncomplicate all the confusion, that's a result of being hurt (not that you were ever confused). I personally never felt brainwashed, I have a very black & white logical mindset, not unlike yourself, who has a way of cutting through all the b.s.
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Post by Lee on Sept 27, 2022 6:49:40 GMT -5
Growing up, I found it very hard to orientate myself to life. I was born and raised and felt a lot of guilt and confusion over leaving. But I’m glad for the journey, I believe it allowed me to be more thoughtful about things.
The workers do a fairly good job of cultivating societal health in their flock. (Overall, as compared to societal health or lack there of in general). But when Jesus asks you to ponder hard over who your neighbor really is, It’s a lot like asking you to ponder hard over who you really are. I took the bait.
I miss the good feelings and energy that can flow from being part of a tribe, but would not go back. In subtle and some not subtle ways, the workers’ idea of salvation is unhealthy and anti Christian.
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Post by Lee on Sept 27, 2022 7:01:02 GMT -5
And when I say ‘our government’, it’s clear Americans have different ideas of what government should and should not do. In enumerating the powers of government, and adopting a bill of rights, the framers of our constitution sought to protect us from our own “best” interests. What a farcical, pharisaical, concept of civil "rights" -- the right of the government determine what is YOUR best interest. The bill of rights contains the rights of individuals, not the rights of government. Right. If you had your druthers, what expression of governance would you choose to live under, or through? The pharisaicalism Jesus objected to was the hypocritical minding of law. If the architects of American governance were wary of both tyrants and tyrannies of majorities and minorities, and designed firewalls into their form of governance to restrain these, were they being pharasaical? |
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Post by Lee on Sept 27, 2022 7:03:39 GMT -5
I think the anti tyrannical spirit of our government is of God. But I don’t think Americans are any more Gods people than the Jews are Gods people simply for being Jewish. That said, I think God has a plan for all Jews, even as he has a plan for all people. But the elect will be distinguished for being uniquely zealous for good ideas. Romans 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. I don’t think the elect have been fully revealed in their glory yet. |
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Post by intelchips on Sept 27, 2022 8:59:12 GMT -5
I woke up early this morning around 3:30 AM and sit wondering why. Something seemed to be on my mind. I felt the need to do something but what? Then slowly it came to me, and I started thinking about when we look at the broad themes of Paul’s letters, they clearly paint a picture of Jesus as a hidden mystery only now being made known by Paul and other prophets like him, through divine revelation and scriptural interpretation. These ideas don’t come from isolated sentences, these ideas are the driving force behind Paul’s ministry. The whole point of Paul’s ministry according to Paul is to make the hidden mystery of Christ known, because without him and others like him, Jesus will remain unknown. I know I have written much about Paul on this board, but I have never been sure if I'm lost and alone in these thoughts. Will this thought be any different. and in the end what difference could it make?
If I am correct why was there a need for a mystery?
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Thankfully somehow I had
