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Post by nathan02 on Aug 10, 2021 18:14:03 GMT -5
Well at least you give your opinion instead of ducking and diving.....Thankyou. Why is it so confronting that these people could have used good/bad old stories to convey a message?.
Because stories are fabricated, prone to hyperbole, embellishment, and fictional characters. If Abraham's experience was not historically accurate and factual, then what of David, Job, Moses, and even Jesus?
I can have faith in nonfiction, but there's no genuine truth in fictional stories used to convey a message. Jesus used parables, but he was not one himself.. If Abraham sacrificing Issac was just someone's idea to illustrate and convey a message, then it was not divinely inspired, and the entire bible gets reduced to a philosophical promotion of a belief system not rooted in actual truth.
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Post by rejoicing on Aug 10, 2021 22:15:39 GMT -5
Didnt Paul speak about delivering a believer who does sinful deeds to the devil to destroy the deeds but save the soul? He also said our deeds will be tried by fire and uf they do not outlast the fire or withstand the fire, then our deeds are gone but our souls are saved. I often think about the thief on the cross who Jesus told that hed be with Jesus in Paradise that day. That man knew salvation but all his deeds were extinguished by the right sentence he admitted he should get So how many people will be in heaven with eternal life but no rewards or crowns for their deeds? Rejoicing i don’t understand. What’s this about some people getting eternal life but not getting rewards/crowns? I don’t even know how to ask the question. How to you conceive of rewards/crowns? John 3:16 speaks only about a person of faith believing on Jesus Christ having eternal life. Therefore, when a p is rson with that faith dies, their soul enters Paradise in heaven to "rest" until the first resurrection. Yes, they have received salvation by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. After resurrection each resurrected eternal body and soul will then come before Jesus Christ to answer for what thryve done in their believing life. Even unto why they did whatever it was they did. There are 5 crowns awaiting believing souls in that Behema seat judgment. The Behema seat judgment is NOT ABOUT WHETHER THESE FAITHFUL PEOPLE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE because that's already been decided and they're of the first resurrection, but about their deeds and what rewards they may be given. The English bible doesnt speak of the Behema seat, but the Latin and Jewish bibles do. The Behema seat was a dias that was raised where the judge could watch the races or competitions on the ground around him. After all the competition is ons or races were complete, than the contestants for each competition would come upon the dias before the judge of the competition, and stand before the judge and he would call out the status of each competitor and what reward was for each place winning. This is very much like the Behema judgment those resurrected faithful will stand before Jesus Christ and answer for what deeds theyve done and why they did them. Then Jesus will tell them and others standing around what that person will be rewarded and what crown(s) are his/hers. And since there will be some who's deeds do not or did not stand the test by fire, they will not receive any rewards or any crowns. But their souls are saved and resurrected into eternal life. The thief on the cross is the first one that's known about I think it was Wally who said once, he thought eternal life was an awesome reward in itself.
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Post by rejoicing on Aug 10, 2021 22:23:32 GMT -5
Hes not a torture monster. Do you not get angry when someone you have a right to expect better of, just is foolish and dont do what you are sure they are capable of? Do you not use your position of authority in such situations to put your displeasure upon those whom have failed to do either that which you expect or dont do that which they've said they'll do? I've know some who are in authority to level out what some think are really torture or unfair exactment on those beneath their authority. So if mankind can do such, why is it so awful when God does exactly what humans do to other humans? Human authority is temporary, so wed not expect them to exact eternal punishment, but God is from everlasting to everlasting, so yes, his punishments on human failures and sins could well be eternal. However were r, God has a covenant with Jesus Christ our redeemer. In the OT, the Mosaic-God covenant was "If they will." The NT covenant between God and Jesus Christ is "I will.." so I'd expect to find a whole lot more Mercy under the Jesus Christ covenant. I know it's hard to face, but he is an evil torture monster. I am nothing like that. And out of tens of thousands of other human beings, I have never interacted with one so evil. There certainly are wicked and cruel people who hurt others in indescribable ways. I think of a parent who punishes a child by holding their hand on a hot stove burner. That is nothing compared to the beloved God who tortures them eternally with molten sulfur. It's not my understanding that unsaved people are punished particularly in a burning sulfur pit. From what Jesus showed on the cross, it was "My God, my God! Why has thou forsaken me?" It says it was a lost eternity that Jesus suffered on the cross for sinful men. The torment isnt physical but spiritual or mental because the person is separated far from God and they're finding that to be torment.
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Post by rejoicing on Aug 10, 2021 22:30:45 GMT -5
Didnt Paul speak about delivering a believer who does sinful deeds to the devil to destroy the deeds but save the soul? He also said our deeds will be tried by fire and uf they do not outlast the fire or withstand the fire, then our deeds are gone but our souls are saved. I often think about the thief on the cross who Jesus told that hed be with Jesus in Paradise that day. That man knew salvation but all his deeds were extinguished by the right sentence he admitted he should get So how many people will be in heaven with eternal life but no rewards or crowns for their deeds? How does the rewards doctrine fit with the parable below? I wonder if this doctrine is an attempt to plug a whole in the OSAS doctrine? Matthew 20:1 “For the Kingdom of Heaven is like the landowner who went out early one morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay the normal daily wage and sent them out to work. 3 “At nine o’clock in the morning he was passing through the marketplace and saw some people standing around doing nothing. 4 So he hired them, telling them he would pay them whatever was right at the end of the day. 5 So they went to work in the vineyard. At noon and again at three o’clock he did the same thing. 6 “At five o’clock that afternoon he was in town again and saw some more people standing around. He asked them, ‘Why haven’t you been working today?’ 7 “They replied, ‘Because no one hired us.’ “The landowner told them, ‘Then go out and join the others in my vineyard.’ 8 “That evening he told the foreman to call the workers in and pay them, beginning with the last workers first. 9 When those hired at five o’clock were paid, each received a full day’s wage. 10 When those hired first came to get their pay, they assumed they would receive more. But they, too, were paid a day’s wage. 11 When they received their pay, they protested to the owner, 12 ‘Those people worked only one hour, and yet you’ve paid them just as much as you paid us who worked all day in the scorching heat.’ 13 “He answered one of them, ‘Friend, I haven’t been unfair! Didn’t you agree to work all day for the usual wage? 14 Take your money and go. I wanted to pay this last worker the same as you. 15 Is it against the law for me to do what I want with my money? Should you be jealous because I am kind to others?’ 16 “So those who are last now will be first then, and those who are first will be last.” I've heard that parable is about every person who receives eternal life or salvation whether been faithful all their life or those who are deathbed conversions receiving eternal life, because that is what their faith is in Jesus Christ brings every one of them regardless of being faithful 90 years or 1 hour. Theres been some people who've been faithful many years, but then when they see someone come into faith late in life or deathbed conversions who are like the workers that had worked all day that complained to the boss about receiving what theyd agreed to.
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Post by Dan on Aug 11, 2021 1:45:26 GMT -5
I have to agree with the car scenario. If my neighbor didn't take responsibility and pay for the damage, I'd be suing them. I would expect the same from them if I refused to pay. It has nothing to do with the so-called golden rule, which is nothing more than directional morality. I treat you nice so you will be nice to me. How is that in any way respect and brotherly love? It's manipulation. No morality here. Being nice to someone and treating others as you would like to be treated isn't conditional, nor is it a tit for tat scenario, but a moral command requiring Christians to be fair regardless of how your treated. The motivation isn't to get a favorable or similar response in return, but to abide by a principle because its the right thing to do.
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Post by Annan on Aug 11, 2021 7:01:16 GMT -5
I have to agree with the car scenario. If my neighbor didn't take responsibility and pay for the damage, I'd be suing them. I would expect the same from them if I refused to pay. It has nothing to do with the so-called golden rule, which is nothing more than directional morality. I treat you nice so you will be nice to me. How is that in any way respect and brotherly love? It's manipulation. No morality here. Being nice to someone and treating others as you would like to be treated isn't conditional, nor is it a tit for tat scenario, but a moral command requiring Christians to be fair regardless of how your treated. The motivation isn't to get a favorable or similar response in return, but to abide by a principle because its the right thing to do. In my opinion, it's how it's worded. Who hasn’t heard Jesus famous commandment, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. This adage is not original in that it is found in slight variations in all cultures of the world. Among the Jews it was known to have been the central teaching of Rabbi Hillel (30 BCE – 10 CE), a spiritual and ethical leader of his generation. Hillel said, “Do not do unto others that which is hateful unto thee.” This is not the same in any, way, shape or form to the twist put on his words that are attributed to Jesus. Hillel’s statement tells what not to do to others. Jesus’ statement on the other hand is utterly different in connotation. Jesus’ statement is about what we want from others. My behavior becomes dependent on what I can get or imagine I can get from others. This leads to using people for personal ends. Again, Jesus’ statement obliges you to treat others in whatever way you want them to treat you. This is called prudential (directional) morality, a moral code that obliges us to do things for the betterment of our own souls. If we do good for others we will be rewarded for doing so. Philosopher Walter Kaufmann, in The Faith of a Heretic, writes that Judeo-Christian morality “does not know the value of a deed done for its own sake.” Jesus’ commandment is about desire. “Think about what you would like others to do for you, then do it for them, not for their good, but for the reward it will bring you.” This has nothing to do with responsible regard for others.
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Post by verna on Aug 11, 2021 9:32:43 GMT -5
Rejoicing i don’t understand. What’s this about some people getting eternal life but not getting rewards/crowns? I don’t even know how to ask the question. How to you conceive of rewards/crowns? John 3:16 speaks only about a person of faith believing on Jesus Christ having eternal life. Therefore, when a p is rson with that faith dies, their soul enters Paradise in heaven to "rest" until the first resurrection. Yes, they have received salvation by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. After resurrection each resurrected eternal body and soul will then come before Jesus Christ to answer for what thryve done in their believing life. Even unto why they did whatever it was they did. There are 5 crowns awaiting believing souls in that Behema seat judgment. The Behema seat judgment is NOT ABOUT WHETHER THESE FAITHFUL PEOPLE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE because that's already been decided and they're of the first resurrection, but about their deeds and what rewards they may be given. The English bible doesnt speak of the Behema seat, but the Latin and Jewish bibles do. The Behema seat was a dias that was raised where the judge could watch the races or competitions on the ground around him. After all the competition is ons or races were complete, than the contestants for each competition would come upon the dias before the judge of the competition, and stand before the judge and he would call out the status of each competitor and what reward was for each place winning. This is very much like the Behema judgment those resurrected faithful will stand before Jesus Christ and answer for what deeds theyve done and why they did them. Then Jesus will tell them and others standing around what that person will be rewarded and what crown(s) are his/hers. And since there will be some who's deeds do not or did not stand the test by fire, they will not receive any rewards or any crowns. But their souls are saved and resurrected into eternal life. The thief on the cross is the first one that's known about I think it was Wally who said once, he thought eternal life was an awesome reward in itself. Hmm - sounds from this that the concept is fashioned after a human tradition. No?
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Post by verna on Aug 11, 2021 9:38:08 GMT -5
I know it's hard to face, but he is an evil torture monster. I am nothing like that. And out of tens of thousands of other human beings, I have never interacted with one so evil. There certainly are wicked and cruel people who hurt others in indescribable ways. I think of a parent who punishes a child by holding their hand on a hot stove burner. That is nothing compared to the beloved God who tortures them eternally with molten sulfur. It's not my understanding that unsaved people are punished particularly in a burning sulfur pit. From what Jesus showed on the cross, it was "My God, my God! Why has thou forsaken me?" It says it was a lost eternity that Jesus suffered on the cross for sinful men. The torment isnt physical but spiritual or mental because the person is separated far from God and they're finding that to be torment. Many christians say that nonchristians are living without God now so why would that be considered torment?
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2021 13:53:50 GMT -5
The second greatest commandment is self-explanatory, nothing to interpret... Treat others the same way you would like them to treat you, that's showing them respect and brotherly love. "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets" (Matthew 7:12). The golden rule. Your actions towards a neighbor should reflect the same compassion and understanding you have for yourself. It doesn't always require being nice. If I damaged my neighbors car, I'd pay for the repairs, the same standard would apply to my neighbor if he/she damaged my car. If they refused to take responsibility for the damages, then my love and understanding would come to a screeching halt. I have to agree with the car scenario. If my neighbor didn't take responsibility and pay for the damage, I'd be suing them. I would expect the same from them if I refused to pay. It has nothing to do with the so-called golden rule, which is nothing more than directional morality. I treat you nice so you will be nice to me. How is that in any way respect and brotherly love? It's manipulation. No morality here. What was Jesus hoping for in return when he called for forgiveness to those who hurt him? Luke 12:33 When they came to a place called The Skull, they nailed him to the cross. And the criminals were also crucified—one on his right and one on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” And the soldiers gambled for his clothes by throwing dice.
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2021 13:58:14 GMT -5
Hes not a torture monster. Do you not get angry when someone you have a right to expect better of, just is foolish and dont do what you are sure they are capable of? Do you not use your position of authority in such situations to put your displeasure upon those whom have failed to do either that which you expect or dont do that which they've said they'll do? I've know some who are in authority to level out what some think are really torture or unfair exactment on those beneath their authority. So if mankind can do such, why is it so awful when God does exactly what humans do to other humans? Human authority is temporary, so wed not expect them to exact eternal punishment, but God is from everlasting to everlasting, so yes, his punishments on human failures and sins could well be eternal. However were r, God has a covenant with Jesus Christ our redeemer. In the OT, the Mosaic-God covenant was "If they will." The NT covenant between God and Jesus Christ is "I will.." so I'd expect to find a whole lot more Mercy under the Jesus Christ covenant. I know it's hard to face, but he is an evil torture monster. I am nothing like that. And out of tens of thousands of other human beings, I have never interacted with one so evil. There certainly are wicked and cruel people who hurt others in indescribable ways. I think of a parent who punishes a child by holding their hand on a hot stove burner. That is nothing compared to the beloved God who tortures them eternally with molten sulfur. The problem is that man makes God in his own image.
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Post by Annan on Aug 11, 2021 14:11:19 GMT -5
I have to agree with the car scenario. If my neighbor didn't take responsibility and pay for the damage, I'd be suing them. I would expect the same from them if I refused to pay. It has nothing to do with the so-called golden rule, which is nothing more than directional morality. I treat you nice so you will be nice to me. How is that in any way respect and brotherly love? It's manipulation. No morality here. What was Jesus hoping for in return when he called for forgiveness to those who hurt him? Luke 12:33 When they came to a place called The Skull, they nailed him to the cross. And the criminals were also crucified—one on his right and one on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” And the soldiers gambled for his clothes by throwing dice. My issue is with the wording of the golden rule which is not exactly what Jesus supposedly said.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 11, 2021 14:42:00 GMT -5
Being kind to people and helping them if needed is the norm. Karma is alive and well.
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2021 15:02:56 GMT -5
What was Jesus hoping for in return when he called for forgiveness to those who hurt him? Luke 12:33 When they came to a place called The Skull, they nailed him to the cross. And the criminals were also crucified—one on his right and one on his left. 34 Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they don’t know what they are doing.” And the soldiers gambled for his clothes by throwing dice. My issue is with the wording of the golden rule which is not exactly what Jesus supposedly said. I suspect your problem is with the way Christians interpret and implement what Jesus said, rather than what he intended by what he said.
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2021 16:01:23 GMT -5
Being kind to people and helping them if needed is the norm. Karma is alive and well. I'm yet to be convinced that kindness is the norm outside of the extended family/tribe/village. I wonder how much traction kindness to strangers and people in need had before the Judeo/Christian tradition?
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Post by chuck on Aug 11, 2021 17:36:10 GMT -5
Being nice to someone and treating others as you would like to be treated isn't conditional, nor is it a tit for tat scenario, but a moral command requiring Christians to be fair regardless of how your treated. The motivation isn't to get a favorable or similar response in return, but to abide by a principle because its the right thing to do. In my opinion, it's how it's worded. Who hasn’t heard Jesus famous commandment, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. This adage is not original in that it is found in slight variations in all cultures of the world. Among the Jews it was known to have been the central teaching of Rabbi Hillel (30 BCE – 10 CE), a spiritual and ethical leader of his generation. Hillel said, “Do not do unto others that which is hateful unto thee.” This is not the same in any, way, shape or form to the twist put on his words that are attributed to Jesus. Hillel’s statement tells what not to do to others. Jesus’ statement on the other hand is utterly different in connotation. Jesus’ statement is about what we want from others. My behavior becomes dependent on what I can get or imagine I can get from others. This leads to using people for personal ends. Again, Jesus’ statement obliges you to treat others in whatever way you want them to treat you. This is called prudential (directional) morality, a moral code that obliges us to do things for the betterment of our own souls. If we do good for others we will be rewarded for doing so. Philosopher Walter Kaufmann, in The Faith of a Heretic, writes that Judeo-Christian morality “does not know the value of a deed done for its own sake.” Jesus’ commandment is about desire. “Think about what you would like others to do for you, then do it for them, not for their good, but for the reward it will bring you.” This has nothing to do with responsible regard for others. Or you could look at it like this... Shane Willard "Now here is the basic flow of thought, every sermon has a basic flow of thought. So essentially this is Jesus' outline okay, so this is this scripture in context. First thing He says in the flow of thought is: don't get what you want from others by judging them. Judge not, lest you be judged. In other words, don't try to get what you need from others by judging them; a good wife would do this! Don't you love it when your husband says that to you? Because now that you feel like total crap, you'll just do what he wants, and love him? Of course not, that doesn't really work right? He says: don't get what you need by judging. Then He says: don't get what you need by manipulation. Once people figure out you're manipulating them, they'll turn on you and eat you alive - don't do that. Then He says: simply ask, seek and knock - be clear. So the first part of His sermon He says: don't get what you need by judging. This is directly tied to how you treat other people. The second thing He says is: don't get what you need from others by manipulation. This is directly tied to how you treat other people. Third thing He says is: when you need something from someone, just simply ask, seek and knock; in other words be clear. Just, if you need help - just ask. There's a big difference between saying: sweetie, I really need help with the dishes, would you mind helping me? And: I wish SOMEONE would help me around here! Those are two different things - one is manipulation, one is clearly asking, seeking and knocking. Then He says: be aware of how your God-concept affects how you treat others. Essentially He says: when you ask your heavenly Father for a piece of bread, does He give you a rock? No, God doesn't play those games. Essentially the point He's making, is that it's very important that we become aware of how our God-concept affects how we treat other people. Jesus' disciples dealt with this. There's this story in Luke 9, where Jesus sends His disciples to the next city to prepare the way, while He finished up in one city; and then as He was going there, they meet Him on the way out. He says: what happened? They said: well unfortunately, these people won't accept You. Would You like us to call down fire from heaven and destroy them now? And it says that Jesus rebuked them for their heart attitude. In other words, it would be a horrible thing if followers of Jesus ever thought Jesus' goal was to destroy people who don't accept Him. The Jesus I read about forgives His enemies. He turns the other cheek. He even prays, and blesses, and forgives people who nailed Him to a cross, and beat Him half to death on the way there. That's the kind of Jesus I serve; but if I believe that Jesus wants to destroy people, then that's how I'll come across. It will affect how I talk to other people. He says: be aware of this - be aware. If God tortures people, then you're going to think its okay for you to torture people - and by the way, in the 1860s, the church condoned the beatings of black people, because they were less human in America. I'm sure that didn't happen here. I'm sure there's no racism in New Zealand right? No, that doesn't happen here. If God's a racist, then it's okay for you to be a racist. If God does things then it's okay, see? It says: don't get what you want by judging. Don't get what you want by manipulation, that's how you treat others. Simply ask, seek and knock - how you treat others. Be aware of how your God concept affects how you treat others. And then He says: broad is the road that leads to destruction; narrow is the way that leads to life. Does it stand to reason, that it might be talking about how you treat others, considering that everything before that is talking about how you treat others? But it keeps going, gets better. Then He says: don't follow teachers whose teachings destroy your life. If it isn't working dump it. Essentially He says: if what someone's teaching you, is leading your life to a bad place, then dump it. If it isn't working, don't keep doing it. It's Jesus being a First-Century, Middle-Eastern, hippie Dr Phil! Then He says: many will say to me in that day - Lord, Lord; and I'll say - I just don't know you. So Jesus then indicates, that at the end of the day, there's a lot of people who think they're in - but they're actually out!"
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Post by speak on Aug 11, 2021 17:57:14 GMT -5
Being kind to people and helping them if needed is the norm. Karma is alive and well. It seems that in some parts of the world it is not the norm.
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Post by joanna on Aug 11, 2021 20:22:20 GMT -5
I agree fixit. We read of humans stepping up to help other humans when there is a public disaster or other type of tragedy aired by the media. Publicity seems to be a key motivator for acts of kindness which leaves the cynic wondering whose interest this is serving? There are numerous quotes along the lines of 'we can judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable members'. With this in mind, disabled humans who cannot self-advocate have much in common with non-human animals. There is continual evidence that the rights of both these cohorts to live free of suffering or fear are seriously undermined. Abuse, neglect and the suffering of disabled humans is endemic.Abuse, neglect and overt suffering of non-human animals occurs on a daily basis and is supported by all who consume these sentient beings. The mass suffering inflicted by humans onto sentient beings (both human and others) throughout history indicates that kindness and karma are not prevalent. As for treating others as we would treat them, this is a great adage until we meet with a serial killer or the like. I suppose the more we learn about neuropsychology etc and that paedophiles and serial killers may have no choice but to inflict the harm they do, the more society may replace the current punitive reactions to these crimes with compassionate interventions? Becoming the Best We Can Be
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Post by openingact34 on Aug 11, 2021 20:23:03 GMT -5
I know it's hard to face, but he is an evil torture monster. I am nothing like that. And out of tens of thousands of other human beings, I have never interacted with one so evil. There certainly are wicked and cruel people who hurt others in indescribable ways. I think of a parent who punishes a child by holding their hand on a hot stove burner. That is nothing compared to the beloved God who tortures them eternally with molten sulfur. The problem is that man makes God in his own image. The Bible says the opposite.
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Post by joanna on Aug 11, 2021 20:45:17 GMT -5
chuck. Why is this Jesus famous commandment when it predated Christianity by 1,000's of years?
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Post by chuck on Aug 11, 2021 21:05:38 GMT -5
chuck. Why is this Jesus famous commandment when it predated Christianity by 1,000's of years? If it's Jesus the "man" it isn't. If its Jesus the "character" it is.
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Post by joanna on Aug 11, 2021 21:21:01 GMT -5
chuck. Hello Chuck, I think it is reasonable to identify your theme of applying a flexible interpretation reading framework to the bible - that you employ metaphor to dumb down the violent biblical passages and the extraordinary, unevidenced supernatural claims. And your reliance on semantics to justify a reverence towards biblical content - Eg "man"" versus "character". This flexibility validates the bible being categorised as a work of fiction and mythology. If we were to read about Covid19 and then use the same methodology that you favour when reading the bible, we would enter the realm of the conspiracy theorists in relation to this pandemic. Information on covid19 contains life-saving advice, therefore to manipulate this advice with the use of metaphor and other techniques would put us and society at risk. Christians consider the bible contains life-saving advice. The fact this text is open to such an incredible variety of interpretative techniques negates its importance and 'life-saving' potential.
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Post by chuck on Aug 11, 2021 23:00:02 GMT -5
chuck. Hello Chuck, I think it is reasonable to identify your theme of applying a flexible interpretation reading framework to the bible - for you to employ metaphor to dumb down the violent biblical passages and the extraordinary, unevidenced supernatural claims. And to rely on semantics to justify a reverence towards biblical content - Eg "man"" versus "character". This flexibility validates the bible being categorised as a work of fiction and mythology. If we were to read about Covid19 and then use the same methodology that you favour when reading the bible, we would enter the realm of the conspiracy theorists in relation to this pandemic. Information on covid19 contains life-saving advice, therefore to manipulate this advice with the use of metaphor and other techniques would put us and society at risk. Christians consider the bible contains life-saving advice. The fact this text is open to such an incredible variety of interpretative techniques negates its importance and 'life-saving' potential. Why would you read the bible through our cultural understanding and apply the culture of the bible to us today? Covid 19 is current, its written in our culture, our style of literature, in our understanding in our time. The Bible isn't so regardless of what mainstream Christianity say's it doesn't change the fact that the fundamentalist approach is incorrect wether its for (Christianity) or against the bible. I think you have just highlighted in reverse what my argument is. I agree dont use metaphor for covid 19, also dont apply our culture to theirs when reading the bible. I agree with a lot of what you say but disagree with your approach and how that leads to your view of the bible. Edit, as for Character or Man, this is one the the main confusion imo. We get hung up on the man, the Character is the message, the character in the time it was told and what that means for us today. Focusing on wether some man did actually walk out of his tomb, or a guy did actually get swallowed by a fish ect was never the point, that's just how they told it. And let me take the flexibility out of it for you, the whole thing can be a story and the message within stays the same. I probably look at it like a embellished movie based on lots of true stories, the stories originated somewhere from some event, but for this instance Ill take that out of the equation and say the whole thing is just a story. Message within stays the same.
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Post by fixit on Aug 11, 2021 23:19:16 GMT -5
There are numerous quotes along the lines of 'we can judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable members'. This thought has been often in my mind with respect to Covid-19 response. I find it quite shocking when people, including on TMB, say things like "those who get very sick and die from Covid-19 are mostly old and have pre-existing health conditions".
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Aug 11, 2021 23:24:25 GMT -5
Being religious is a pre existing health condition.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2021 23:30:31 GMT -5
There are numerous quotes along the lines of 'we can judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable members'. This thought has been often in my mind with respect to Covid-19 response. I find it quite shocking when people, including on TMB, say things like "those who get very sick and die from Covid-19 are mostly old and have pre-existing health conditions". numbers don't lie....
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Post by joanna on Aug 11, 2021 23:36:26 GMT -5
So why read the bible for any other purpose than its' literary value?
Just as advances in scientific knowledge have deemed past medical texts as obsolete and irrelevant, so too have advances in scientific knowledge and changes in ethical standards emphasised the anachronistic status of the bible.
Your attempts to culturally appropriate biblical content so it conforms to present cultures (and this is only a relative minority of cultures as the Christian bible is irrelevant to most of the Middle East etc) simply serves to emphasise the bible's redundancy.
Of all the books ever compiled why even focus on the bible?
There are so many reliable guides for life that, in contrast to the bible, contain unambiguous advice.
There is adequate evidence that the confusing, contradictory and too often violent, sectarian, patriarchal (too name just some) biblical content continues to hold a negative influence over the gullible.
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Post by joanna on Aug 11, 2021 23:44:01 GMT -5
fixit. If the people are writing this because they are minimising the seriousness of Covid then that is wrong given healthy, young people have died or are permanently scarred by this virus. We are by nature a death-denying species (religiosity is part of this denial). When death occurs in advanced age or when a younger person dies who has been seriously ill and living with a compromised quality of life, then I cannot think of this as shocking. Death can be the better 'outcome' if the alternative is to exist in pain or other forms of suffering and be unable to enjoy life.
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Post by Pragmatic on Aug 11, 2021 23:52:21 GMT -5
fixit . If the people are writing this because they are minimising the seriousness of Covid then that is wrong given healthy, young people have died or are permanently scarred by this virus. We are by nature a death-denying species (religiosity is part of this denial). When death occurs in advanced age or when a younger person dies who has been seriously ill and living with a compromised quality of life, then I cannot think of this as shocking. Death can be the better 'outcome' if the alternative is to exist in pain or other forms of suffering and be unable to enjoy life. I agree...amen Sister
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