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Post by guest8 on Jul 18, 2021 16:36:04 GMT -5
Sounds interesting Dmmichgood. Is it a health remedy. Would it compete favourably with a gin and tonic? You would get along well with my hubby. He likes a gin and tonic. Unless it is cigar night with the boys. Then it's scotch. Well my lime tree has finally produced some fruit. And I cant see it going to waste! Do enjoy a quality red wine.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2021 16:55:54 GMT -5
I have recently bought a rocking chair for the front porch. It's the life. Ah, sounds good! Both you and intelchips! Only other thing you need is some of my dandelion wine!
Wish I could send uou some but the U.S.Postal Service says that is a no-no.Will play this as I enjoy my Guinness, wishing you good health Dmg. www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DrLWEH3zCM
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Post by chuck on Jul 18, 2021 20:31:02 GMT -5
What is the wrath of God?. How do you love God?. The wrath of God is a meaningless threat used by believers in God to warn you of the dire consequences of failing to obey God’s will. God’s will is that which the believers in God have decided it is based on their interpretation of the bible. Curiously the will of God and the will of the believer in God always seem to correlate. God’s will is extremely flexible in much the same way as God’s mind is. The flexibility of God’s mind is legendary being able to incorporate two distinctly opposing positions on a wide range of issues such as the appropriateness of drinking alcohol, having a television in your home or engaging in rompy pompy with someone of the same sex. You love God by adhering to the will of God which really means adhering to the will of those who believe in him and are prone to warning you of the wrath of God that is coming your way if you don’t. Loving God is part of a deal where humanity gives its love to God at his request and in exchange God ignores the plight of the sick, does nothing to prevent the abuse of the innocent, refuses to ease the suffering of the suffering and condemns most of humanity to eternal burning. There’s an old Arab proverb which says he who proposes the deal knows who comes out best from it. This is not a good deal. The great thing about abandoning belief in God and other Hebraic misunderstandings is that you no longer have to heed the dire warnings of the wrath of God which are flung at you. Consequently you no longer need a means to escape that wrath. It’s a bit like getting rid of your motorcycle after which you can safely ignore the guy trying to sell you a motorcycle insurance policy irrespective of his level of insistence. Matt10 You have misrepresented the Hebraic meaning of the "wrath of God" so how can you call their understanding a misunderstanding?. To be fair to them you need to present their understanding first which you have not done.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jul 18, 2021 21:45:42 GMT -5
The wrath of God is a meaningless threat used by believers in God to warn you of the dire consequences of failing to obey God’s will. God’s will is that which the believers in God have decided it is based on their interpretation of the bible. Curiously the will of God and the will of the believer in God always seem to correlate. God’s will is extremely flexible in much the same way as God’s mind is. The flexibility of God’s mind is legendary being able to incorporate two distinctly opposing positions on a wide range of issues such as the appropriateness of drinking alcohol, having a television in your home or engaging in rompy pompy with someone of the same sex. You love God by adhering to the will of God which really means adhering to the will of those who believe in him and are prone to warning you of the wrath of God that is coming your way if you don’t. Loving God is part of a deal where humanity gives its love to God at his request and in exchange God ignores the plight of the sick, does nothing to prevent the abuse of the innocent, refuses to ease the suffering of the suffering and condemns most of humanity to eternal burning. There’s an old Arab proverb which says he who proposes the deal knows who comes out best from it. This is not a good deal. The great thing about abandoning belief in God and other Hebraic misunderstandings is that you no longer have to heed the dire warnings of the wrath of God which are flung at you. Consequently you no longer need a means to escape that wrath. It’s a bit like getting rid of your motorcycle after which you can safely ignore the guy trying to sell you a motorcycle insurance policy irrespective of his level of insistence. Matt10 You have misrepresented the Hebraic meaning of the "wrath of God" so how can you call their understanding a misunderstanding?. To be fair to them you need to present their understanding first which you have not done. Why? Why should Matt have to "present the "Hebraic meaning of the "wrath of God" as you see it or any other group's "understaning of the it?"
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gem2
Junior Member
Luke 12 v.40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not
Posts: 111
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Post by gem2 on Jul 18, 2021 21:58:25 GMT -5
The wrath of God is a meaningless threat used by believers in God to warn you of the dire consequences of failing to obey God’s will. God’s will is that which the believers in God have decided it is based on their interpretation of the bible. Curiously the will of God and the will of the believer in God always seem to correlate. God’s will is extremely flexible in much the same way as God’s mind is. The flexibility of God’s mind is legendary being able to incorporate two distinctly opposing positions on a wide range of issues such as the appropriateness of drinking alcohol, having a television in your home or engaging in rompy pompy with someone of the same sex. You love God by adhering to the will of God which really means adhering to the will of those who believe in him and are prone to warning you of the wrath of God that is coming your way if you don’t. Loving God is part of a deal where humanity gives its love to God at his request and in exchange God ignores the plight of the sick, does nothing to prevent the abuse of the innocent, refuses to ease the suffering of the suffering and condemns most of humanity to eternal burning. There’s an old Arab proverb which says he who proposes the deal knows who comes out best from it. This is not a good deal. The great thing about abandoning belief in God and other Hebraic misunderstandings is that you no longer have to heed the dire warnings of the wrath of God which are flung at you. Consequently you no longer need a means to escape that wrath. It’s a bit like getting rid of your motorcycle after which you can safely ignore the guy trying to sell you a motorcycle insurance policy irrespective of his level of insistence. Matt10 That is your atheist's opinion about the Wrath of God... Here are what God the Bible about the Wrath of God and Christ to come upon the earth and unbelievers.
Revelation 6:12-17 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"Joel 2:1-2 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations. Matthew 24:29-30 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Nahum 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet. Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out. Zephaniah 2:1-3 Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together, O undesirable nation, Before the decree is issued, Or the day passes like chaff, Before the LORD's fierce anger comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD's anger comes upon you! Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger. Haggai 2:6-7 “For thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory," says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:2 'But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears?For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderers' soap.
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gem2
Junior Member
Luke 12 v.40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not
Posts: 111
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Post by gem2 on Jul 18, 2021 22:03:53 GMT -5
No, I don't think I am in a cult. AFter 48 years, I would definitely know if I was in a cult-I have never felt like I was in one. I am kindly saying to you all: no, I am not in a cult. No, I have never, ever been forced into going to meetings, never indoctrinated, none. I have, on my own, almost left truth but through the mercy and love of God I didn/t There is no way, no how, no matter what anyones I am not in a cult. I believe in God with my all heart. Take it or leave it I am speaking honestly how I feel.
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Post by verna on Jul 18, 2021 22:25:17 GMT -5
No, I don't think I am in a cult. AFter 48 years, I would definitely know if I was in a cult-I have never felt like I was in one. I am kindly saying to you all: no, I am not in a cult. No, I have never, ever been forced into going to meetings, never indoctrinated, none. I have, on my own, almost left truth but through the mercy and love of God I didn/t There is no way, no how, no matter what anyones I am not in a cult. I believe in God with my all heart. Take it or leave it I am speaking honestly how I feel. I am glad for you.
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Post by chuck on Jul 18, 2021 23:19:21 GMT -5
You have misrepresented the Hebraic meaning of the "wrath of God" so how can you call their understanding a misunderstanding?. To be fair to them you need to present their understanding first which you have not done. Why? Why should Matt have to "present the "Hebraic meaning of the "wrath of God" as you see it or any other group's "understaning of the it?"
Because everything he just said about the wrath of god was a false premise, granted that's what Christianity has made it but it's still a false premise. If you want to discredit the wrath of god discredit what the Hebrews described it as not what the Christian religion has described it as.
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Post by chuck on Jul 19, 2021 2:54:54 GMT -5
What is the wrath of God?. Surely you have knowledge of the Hebraic understanding? The Pharisees who came to John the Baptist certainly did not suffer from constipation!
How do you love God?. I can't give you the Hebraic understanding, but my Bible tells me that you know you love God when you do his will!
So what is the wrath of God?, a supernaturally manipulated bowel movement? What is "to do his will"?
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Post by chuck on Jul 19, 2021 3:14:14 GMT -5
That is your atheist's opinion about the Wrath of God... Here are what God the Bible about the Wrath of God and Christ to come upon the earth and unbelievers.
Revelation 6:12-17 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood. And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind. Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place. And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains, and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"Joel 2:1-2 Blow the trumpet in Zion, And sound an alarm in My holy mountain! Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble; For the day of the LORD is coming, For it is at hand: A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness, Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains. A people come, great and strong, The like of whom has never been; Nor will there ever be any such after them, Even for many successive generations. Matthew 24:29-30 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Nahum 1:3 The LORD is slow to anger and great in power, And will not at all acquit the wicked. The LORD has His way In the whirlwind and in the storm, And the clouds are the dust of His feet. Zephaniah 1:14 The great day of the LORD is near; It is near and hastens quickly. The noise of the day of the LORD is bitter; There the mighty men shall cry out. Zephaniah 2:1-3 Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together, O undesirable nation, Before the decree is issued, Or the day passes like chaff, Before the LORD's fierce anger comes upon you, Before the day of the LORD's anger comes upon you! Seek the LORD, all you meek of the earth, Who have upheld His justice. Seek righteousness, seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden In the day of the LORD's anger. Haggai 2:6-7 “For thus says the LORD of hosts: ‘Once more (it is a little while) I will shake heaven and earth, the sea and dry land; and I will shake all nations, and they shall come to the Desire of All Nations, and I will fill this temple with glory," says the LORD of hosts. Malachi 3:2 'But who can endure the day of His coming? And who can stand when He appears?For He is like a refiner's fire And like launderers' soap. What does a refiners fire do? What does a launderers soap do?
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Post by mountain on Jul 19, 2021 4:00:17 GMT -5
So what is the wrath of God?, a supernaturally manipulated bowel movement? You have stated a cause and an effect, but are confusing the two as one.What is "to do his will"? Be ChristlikeIt is becoming very clear to me that simplicity confounds you Chuck. You ask questions that a child can easily answer. Yet you seem to be out to complicate the obvious to try and direct others to your extraordinary understanding?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 19, 2021 4:04:23 GMT -5
So what is the wrath of God?, a supernaturally manipulated bowel movement? You have stated a cause and an effect, but are confusing the two as one.What is "to do his will"? Be ChristlikeIt is becoming very clear to me that simplicity confounds you Chuck. You ask questions that a child can easily answer. Yet you seem to be out to complicate the obvious to try and direct others to your extraordinary understanding?
The complexities of mythology will always confuse the gullible.
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Post by mountain on Jul 19, 2021 4:06:30 GMT -5
The complexities of mythology will always confuse the gullible. Yes, it's so easy to myth the point. Simplicity is always the answer.
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Post by chuck on Jul 19, 2021 5:18:48 GMT -5
So what is the wrath of God?, a supernaturally manipulated bowel movement? You have stated a cause and an effect, but are confusing the two as one.What is "to do his will"? Be ChristlikeIt is becoming very clear to me that simplicity confounds you Chuck. You ask questions that a child can easily answer. Yet you seem to be out to complicate the obvious to try and direct others to your extraordinary understanding?
So the effect of the wrath of God is a supernatural manipulated bowel movement? What is Christ like?.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2021 5:24:12 GMT -5
The wrath of God is a meaningless threat used by believers in God to warn you of the dire consequences of failing to obey God’s will. God’s will is that which the believers in God have decided it is based on their interpretation of the bible. Curiously the will of God and the will of the believer in God always seem to correlate. God’s will is extremely flexible in much the same way as God’s mind is. The flexibility of God’s mind is legendary being able to incorporate two distinctly opposing positions on a wide range of issues such as the appropriateness of drinking alcohol, having a television in your home or engaging in rompy pompy with someone of the same sex. You love God by adhering to the will of God which really means adhering to the will of those who believe in him and are prone to warning you of the wrath of God that is coming your way if you don’t. Loving God is part of a deal where humanity gives its love to God at his request and in exchange God ignores the plight of the sick, does nothing to prevent the abuse of the innocent, refuses to ease the suffering of the suffering and condemns most of humanity to eternal burning. There’s an old Arab proverb which says he who proposes the deal knows who comes out best from it. This is not a good deal. The great thing about abandoning belief in God and other Hebraic misunderstandings is that you no longer have to heed the dire warnings of the wrath of God which are flung at you. Consequently you no longer need a means to escape that wrath. It’s a bit like getting rid of your motorcycle after which you can safely ignore the guy trying to sell you a motorcycle insurance policy irrespective of his level of insistence. Matt10 You have misrepresented the Hebraic meaning of the "wrath of God" so how can you call their understanding a misunderstanding?. To be fair to them you need to present their understanding first which you have not done. I’m not sure I follow this at all or your response to DMG for that matter. You asked what the wrath of God was and I explained it to you. If you don’t like the explanation provided then I would suggest that is an issue for you rather than me. If you understood the wrath of God, one wonders why you had to ask what it was in the first place. And of course I don’t have to present anything about Hebraic understandings or Hebraic misunderstandings. What matters is not the Hebraic or the Christian understanding of God but rather having a true understanding of God and of the things relating to God. You won’t find those who truly understand God having to ask others to explain things about God. You won’t find those who truly understand God arguing over the will or the mind or the word of God. You won’t find those who truly understand God having a difference of opinion on what the wrath of God is or how you love God. There are no misunderstandings or mysteries or unknowns or differences of opinion about God for those with a true understanding. It is only among believers in [the Christian] God here that one encounters such confusion. Matt10
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Post by chuck on Jul 19, 2021 5:42:02 GMT -5
You have misrepresented the Hebraic meaning of the "wrath of God" so how can you call their understanding a misunderstanding?. To be fair to them you need to present their understanding first which you have not done. I’m not sure I follow this at all or your response to DMG for that matter. You asked what the wrath of God was and I explained it to you. If you don’t like the explanation provided then I would suggest that is an issue for you rather than me. If you understood the wrath of God, one wonders why you had to ask what it was in the first place. And of course I don’t have to present anything about Hebraic understandings or Hebraic misunderstandings. What matters is not the Hebraic or the Christian understanding of God but rather having a true understanding of God and of the things relating to God. You won’t find those who truly understand God having to ask others to explain things about God. You won’t find those who truly understand God arguing over the will or the mind or the word of God. You won’t find those who truly understand God having a difference of opinion on what the wrath of God is or how you love God. There are no misunderstandings or mysteries or unknowns or differences of opinion about God for those with a true understanding. It is only among believers in [the Christian] God here that one encounters such confusion. Matt10 Sure you explained it....You paint the picture of a angry zeus beating people for mistakes. So do "Christians". The writer's of scripture would have no idea what you are talking about but you indicate that doesn't matter anyway, isn't it the key you just threw away?. In simple terms to the Hebrew people the wrath of God is just the consequences of one's own destructive decisions. What's so confusing about that?.
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Post by mountain on Jul 19, 2021 6:15:25 GMT -5
So the effect of the wrath of God is a supernatural manipulated bowel movement? The Pharisees can best answer that question. There are other effects.
What is Christ like?. To follow Jesus in his way, truth and life, which leads to the Father. It is a narrow way and one must be born again from above, otherwise we can neither see (understand), nor can we enter the Kingdom of God. Hebraic understanding may give cultural understanding to the times of Jesus, but it is not the teacher of the path to salvation. That role belongs to the Holy Spirit which teaches and leads those who are born from above.
(Wally)
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Post by mountain on Jul 19, 2021 6:22:34 GMT -5
I’m not sure I follow this at all or your response to DMG for that matter. You asked what the wrath of God was and I explained it to you. If you don’t like the explanation provided then I would suggest that is an issue for you rather than me. If you understood the wrath of God, one wonders why you had to ask what it was in the first place. And of course I don’t have to present anything about Hebraic understandings or Hebraic misunderstandings. What matters is not the Hebraic or the Christian understanding of God but rather having a true understanding of God and of the things relating to God. You won’t find those who truly understand God having to ask others to explain things about God. You won’t find those who truly understand God arguing over the will or the mind or the word of God. You won’t find those who truly understand God having a difference of opinion on what the wrath of God is or how you love God. There are no misunderstandings or mysteries or unknowns or differences of opinion about God for those with a true understanding. It is only among believers in [the Christian] God here that one encounters such confusion. Matt10 Sure you explained it....You paint the picture of a angry zeus beating people for mistakes. So do "Christians". The writer's of scripture would have no idea what you are talking about but you indicate that doesn't matter anyway, isn't it the key you just threw away?. In simple terms to the Hebrew people the wrath of God is just the consequences of one's own destructive decisions. What's so confusing about that?. What is so confusing is that you have failed to explain what the consequences of one's destructive decisions are? You ask what the wrath of God is, yet you present no coherent explanation of what you believe, yet challenge others who try to assist you? Keep things simple. Avoid prevarication. It merely confirms what others are seeing in your posts. (Wally)
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 19, 2021 12:27:14 GMT -5
The complexities of mythology will always confuse the gullible. I took a course on this in college and failed it miserably. Of course, the prof was really coocoo and boring as H.
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Post by chuck on Jul 19, 2021 16:55:55 GMT -5
Sure you explained it....You paint the picture of a angry zeus beating people for mistakes. So do "Christians". The writer's of scripture would have no idea what you are talking about but you indicate that doesn't matter anyway, isn't it the key you just threw away?. In simple terms to the Hebrew people the wrath of God is just the consequences of one's own destructive decisions. What's so confusing about that?. What is so confusing is that you have failed to explain what the consequences of one's destructive decisions are? You ask what the wrath of God is, yet you present no coherent explanation of what you believe, yet challenge others who try to assist you? Keep things simple. Avoid prevarication. It merely confirms what others are seeing in your posts. (Wally) I'm pretty confident you could find in you own life and see in others a destructive decision that lead to painful consequences. You could explain them better than I ever could because you see or experienced them not me. I can explain my own and the one's I personally see.
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Post by chuck on Jul 19, 2021 17:00:32 GMT -5
So the effect of the wrath of God is a supernatural manipulated bowel movement? The Pharisees can best answer that question. There are other effects.
What is Christ like?. To follow Jesus in his way, truth and life, which leads to the Father. It is a narrow way and one must be born again from above, otherwise we can neither see (understand), nor can we enter the Kingdom of God. Hebraic understanding may give cultural understanding to the times of Jesus, but it is not the teacher of the path to salvation. That role belongs to the Holy Spirit which teaches and leads those who are born from above.
(Wally)
So the effect is supernatural manipulation?. So what is it to follow Jesus? What is the way? the truth? the life? What did they mean by the narrow way? What is above? We are just jumping from "Christian" catch phrase to catch phrase, you haven't given anything actually life applicable yet....
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Post by verna on Jul 20, 2021 17:24:50 GMT -5
I just had an interesting thought.. I’m thinking Nathan may be proof that 2x2ism is not a cult. Surely any cult worth its salt would have booted him out by now.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 20, 2021 17:27:54 GMT -5
I just had an interesting thought.. I’m thinking Nathan may be proof that 2x2ism is not a cult. Surely any cult worth its salt would have booted him out by now. The only difference between a church and a cult is the size of the congregation.
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Post by verna on Jul 20, 2021 17:45:42 GMT -5
I just had an interesting thought.. I’m thinking Nathan may be proof that 2x2ism is not a cult. Surely any cult worth its salt would have booted him out by now. The only difference between a church and a cult is the size of the congregation. So you say. I never really understand what you mean when you say that. I’m assuming you’re referring to mind control.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 20, 2021 17:52:43 GMT -5
The only difference between a church and a cult is the size of the congregation. So you say. I never really understand what you mean when you say that. I’m assuming you’re referring to mind control. Basically anything that defines a church can also define a cult and vice versa. Of course the churches do not like to be labelled as cults and when the dictionaries were written the definition of a cult was written by white anglo saxon christians. It suited them to write the definition the way they did.
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Post by joanna on Jul 20, 2021 19:08:03 GMT -5
I cannot really understand what would motivate any believer who has an interest in identifying cults, to ignore the obvious red flags found in the Christian bible. The biblical depiction of Jesus absolutely conforms to the criteria used to identify those organisations that tend towards the more extreme end of the cultish spectrum. - an apocalyptic prophet. - indoctrination using the threat of damnation - his directive "So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple" - Jesus as a charismatic leader "And a great multitude from Galilee followed Him, and from Judea and Jerusalem and Idumea and beyond the Jordan; and those from Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they heard how many things He was doing, came to Him. (Mark 3:7,8)" (just one example) - Jesus claims he possessed supernatural powers including the healing of the sick with no evidence to support these. Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, who once taught at Harvard Medical School, wrote a paper titled Cult Formation in the early 1980s. He delineated three primary characteristics, which are the most common features shared by destructive cults.
1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power. That is a living leader, who has no meaningful accountability and becomes the single most defining element of the group and its source of power and authority.
2. A process [of indoctrination or education is in use that can be seen as] coercive persuasion or thought reform [commonly called "brainwashing"].
The culmination of this process can be seen by members of the group often doing things that are not in their own best interest, but consistently in the best interest of the group and its leader.
Lifton's seminal book Thought Reform and Psychology of Totalism explains this process in considerable detail.
3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
The destructiveness of groups called cults varies by degree, from labour violations, child abuse, medical neglect to, in some extreme and isolated situations, calls for violence or mass suicide. ReferenceI think that all religious beliefs fit somewhere along the cult spectrum. And, as curlywurlysammagee's comment inferred, that society is keen to label those with a smaller number of adherents as cults whilst ignoring that mainstream religious organisations share the fundamental criteria. Do you consider the 2x2's a cult chuck?
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jul 20, 2021 19:12:09 GMT -5
I cannot really understand what would motivate any believer who has an interest in identifying cults, to ignore the obvious red flags found in the Christian bible. The biblical depiction of Jesus absolutely conforms to the criteria used to identify those organisations that tend towards the more extreme end of the cultish spectrum. - an apocalyptic prophet. - indoctrination using the threat of damnation - his directive "So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple" - Jesus as a charismatic leader "And a great multitude from Galilee followed Him, and from Judea and Jerusalem and Idumea and beyond the Jordan; and those from Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they heard how many things He was doing, came to Him. (Mark 3:7,8)" (just one example) - Jesus claims he possessed supernatural powers including the healing of the sick with no evidence to support these. Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, who once taught at Harvard Medical School, wrote a paper titled Cult Formation in the early 1980s. He delineated three primary characteristics, which are the most common features shared by destructive cults.
1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power. That is a living leader, who has no meaningful accountability and becomes the single most defining element of the group and its source of power and authority.
2. A process [of indoctrination or education is in use that can be seen as] coercive persuasion or thought reform [commonly called "brainwashing"].
The culmination of this process can be seen by members of the group often doing things that are not in their own best interest, but consistently in the best interest of the group and its leader.
Lifton's seminal book Thought Reform and Psychology of Totalism explains this process in considerable detail.
3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
The destructiveness of groups called cults varies by degree, from labour violations, child abuse, medical neglect to, in some extreme and isolated situations, calls for violence or mass suicide. ReferenceI think that all religious beliefs fit somewhere along the cult spectrum. And, as curlywurlysammagee 's comment inferred, that society is keen to label those with a smaller number of adherents as cults whilst ignoring that mainstream religious organisations share the fundamental criteria. Do you consider the 2x2's a cult chuck ? Thank you Joanna for putting that together.
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Post by chuck on Jul 21, 2021 17:17:58 GMT -5
I cannot really understand what would motivate any believer who has an interest in identifying cults, to ignore the obvious red flags found in the Christian bible. The biblical depiction of Jesus absolutely conforms to the criteria used to identify those organisations that tend towards the more extreme end of the cultish spectrum. - an apocalyptic prophet. - indoctrination using the threat of damnation - his directive "So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple" - Jesus as a charismatic leader "And a great multitude from Galilee followed Him, and from Judea and Jerusalem and Idumea and beyond the Jordan; and those from Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they heard how many things He was doing, came to Him. (Mark 3:7,8)" (just one example) - Jesus claims he possessed supernatural powers including the healing of the sick with no evidence to support these. Psychiatrist Robert Jay Lifton, who once taught at Harvard Medical School, wrote a paper titled Cult Formation in the early 1980s. He delineated three primary characteristics, which are the most common features shared by destructive cults.
1. A charismatic leader, who increasingly becomes an object of worship as the general principles that may have originally sustained the group lose power. That is a living leader, who has no meaningful accountability and becomes the single most defining element of the group and its source of power and authority.
2. A process [of indoctrination or education is in use that can be seen as] coercive persuasion or thought reform [commonly called "brainwashing"].
The culmination of this process can be seen by members of the group often doing things that are not in their own best interest, but consistently in the best interest of the group and its leader.
Lifton's seminal book Thought Reform and Psychology of Totalism explains this process in considerable detail.
3. Economic, sexual, and other exploitation of group members by the leader and the ruling coterie.
The destructiveness of groups called cults varies by degree, from labour violations, child abuse, medical neglect to, in some extreme and isolated situations, calls for violence or mass suicide. ReferenceI think that all religious beliefs fit somewhere along the cult spectrum. And, as curlywurlysammagee's comment inferred, that society is keen to label those with a smaller number of adherents as cults whilst ignoring that mainstream religious organisations share the fundamental criteria. Do you consider the 2x2's a cult chuck? What is a believer? and is your definition of a believer consistent with Hebrews definition of a believer?. Do you consider the writers perspective when seeing these red flags, do you consider the text has been altered on multiple occasions, do you consider the cultural gap between us and them?. If you read it literally I agree and see how you would think Jesus is a cult leader. I dont think it was written and meant to be read literally. So I don't think he was a cult leader. It was written by superstitious people who used embellishment to pass on messages. What is a apocalyptic prophet? I'm assuming when you use prophet your thinking of someone who is predicting a fiery end to the world, again if you read it literally I can see why you would come to that conclusion, why and who said it must be read literally? why and who said the writers perspective was literal?. Who said a prophet was some magical future predictor?. The Character was the object of worship not the man. The gracious compassionate character is ascribed worth. Do you think that Character should be ascribed worth in people's lives?. If you read it literally you worship the man not the Character. This is only understood when you begin understand how the Hebrew people thought. They think function, we think form. Take Mark 3 for instance, we read Jesus pulled of a supernatural miracle by healing the guys hand. We think a physical withered hand healed, they think the function of the hand was withered and healed, what does a hand do? I'll leave it up to you to decide what a hand can do and what would be the results of that being withered....... And when you take into consideration what was actually happening in the day you would understand why people would want to follow a Character(not the man but grace and compassion) that can heal a withered condition that the religious system or the government system of the day could not. It's not physical literal supernatural healing, its a message that the Gracious compassionate character can heal!, told by people who embellished stories and then also take into consideration how long it was written after Jesus and the early Christian movement used stories like this as propoganga. Another one, Luke 13 Crippled bent over women, we think a Lady hunched over looking down that cannot look up, all physical, they think a person that can only look/think down and at themselves and cannot look up and think of others, Jesus (the Gracious compassionate Character) can heal this selfish nature instantly, there is also innuendos like the women was in a religious setting that cannot heal after 18years of attending, healing on the Sabbath and so on. Again read it literally you get a cult leader pulling of supernatural miracles that we know just dont happen. Yes I think 2x2ism is a cult. As most religion is, Im sure there's is some out there that actually do teach the gracious compassionate character is the best way to live your life...... So in answer to your question, in a summary, I can see why you call Jesus a cult leader, But I cannot read the scriptures literally that way anymore as I think that ignores the perspective and culture and circumstances of the people of the day. I can't make you see it how I see it. But I can and have been in your literal position and know where you are coming from. The cultural gap between us and them is massive and no one is interested in crossing it to consider what they may have been actually saying, but who can blame them after being bashed to death with it in the wrong way.....
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