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Post by joanna on Jul 22, 2021 19:03:05 GMT -5
chuck. It presents as if you do not respect the Christian bible as a reliable text chuck. Yet you have somehow adjusted its content to suit yourself with the assistance of metaphors. Metaphors are the best friends of people who cling onto some semblance of their original belief. The original belief sourced from a literal biblical interpretation that has since been eroded by the dismissal of superstition and an increased understanding of our world. Once you begin rearranging the bibles content to dilute its language and make it more palatable and believable.. then pretty much anything goes. Our childhood indoctrination involved worshipping the bible. It is hard to let that go. My late parents had a collection of them - from the tatty and old to relatively new copies. Even though I'd been a non-believer for years, I was initially uncomfortable when disposing of most. The reverence for this text is ingrained in our psyche. Back to Jesus and whether he was a cult leader. I think he fits pretty much every criteria for this title. And contrary to yours and most others claims regarding him being compassionate, gentle and kind. I do not consider a person who controls others using threats of punishment and promises of rewards that cannot be verified, compassionate, honest or deserving of respect.
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Post by chuck on Jul 22, 2021 20:50:30 GMT -5
chuck. It presents as if you do not respect the Christian bible as a reliable text chuck. Yet you have somehow adjusted its content to suit yourself with the assistance of metaphors. Metaphors are the best friends of people who cling onto some semblance of their original belief. The original belief sourced from a literal biblical interpretation that has since been eroded by the dismissal of superstition and an increased understanding of our world. Once you begin rearranging the bibles content to dilute its language and make it more palatable and believable.. then pretty much anything goes. Our childhood indoctrination involved worshipping the bible. It is hard to let that go. My late parents had a collection of them - from the tatty and old to relatively new copies. Even though I'd been a non-believer for years, I was initially uncomfortable when disposing of most. The reverence for this text is ingrained in our psyche. Back to Jesus and whether he was a cult leader. I think he fits pretty much every criteria for this title. And contrary to yours and most others claims regarding him being compassionate, gentle and kind. I do not consider a person who controls others using threats of punishment and promises of rewards that cannot be verified, compassionate, honest or deserving of respect. No, I treat it for what it is. A collection of books written by ancient people with a culture foreign to ours. With the understanding that it has been translated by people who's culture was also foreign to the original writers and translated for reasons that can be best described as power and control. A translation with this intent does not respect the cultural gap as that was never the intention therefore there was no emphasis put into understanding the ancient culture it was so ignorant of. Plus it is also known that even before the King James translation that many of the books had been altered and added to to fit an agenda or early Christian propoganga. What you seem to be saying to me is I and everyone else should only look at it with the fundamentalist approach as that's the version modern day society has debunked. I agree with your observation of indoctrination. This is what drove me to look at it from the writer's perspective. The little I have learnt from the writer's perspective makes it clear to me that the fundamentalist literal approach is about as far from the writers perspective as it gets. Could you show me from/before the writer's perspective that Jesus was using the "Christian" version of heaven and hell to to control and have power over people?. You think I have somehow adjusted the content to suit myself. I don't see how it suits me at all?, it's my attempt to understand these ancient people before western minds used what they had recorded as a weapon. Like I said, I can't make you see what I see, but unless you go down the path of understanding these ancient people how would you know where I'm coming from?, you like most others always return to the fundamentalist baseline to argue for or against. This is not a attack on you or others but a realisation that there can be other ways to look at this. If you're only interaction with a hammer was to be beat with one, could you look at a hammer any other way than a weapon of painful memories. Deutoronmy 21:10-14. That is hard reading today. Now read it from the perspective of a woman before that law. Sit behind the writer not infront. Do you think this was a step in the right direction for women in that day?. Or do you only want to look back from our perspective and argue how awful that was?. Matthew 21 John 2, Jesus Clearing the temple courts with a whip, What does it look like sitting infront of the writer?. What does it look like sitting behind/before the event?. Is it a step in the right direction?, does suggesting one doesn't need to buy forgiveness better or worse?. We need to cross the gap to sit behind the scriptures not in front of them, that makes them make more sense to me anyways. And then to make it even more clearer understand what was happening in the day and understand their ancient culture. This is just too much for most as they've been bashed with religion so much they cannot stomach delving back into it, but please dont say I've twisted it to suit me until you have done what I have done, I haven't live your personal experiences but I have lived your 2x2ism indoctrination experience, so I can relate to that very well and understand why someone would not want to potentially subject themselves to the idea of delving back into and through religion. The gracious compassionate character is the best way to live our lives, the progression of understanding this through the scriptures is recorded by many people, I dont see what's cult like about Jesus in this light.
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Post by joanna on Jul 23, 2021 20:41:53 GMT -5
chuck. How do you look at it from the writer's perspective when so many of the books of the bible were penned by anonymous persons? I don't understand this emphasis on the writer's perspective? Doesn't this focus detract from the Christian belief that the bible is the written word of god? Do you believe that the bible is the word of God chuck? "King James Bible And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." Matthew 5:17–18 — King James Version (KJV 1900) 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.How can you simultaneously read those verses from the perspective of a woman before that law and sit behind the writer not in front? Do you really believe moral standards can be adjusted to suit the times? Saudi Arabia and other theocracies are current examples of cultures who justify their treatment of women as chattels through the use of scripture. Why shouldn't we apply the same attitude to those Middle Eastern countries that subordinate women as you are suggesting we should in regard to the capturing of women in biblical times? The reason I no longer believe is that I crossed that gap and in doing so, realised that having faith in the mythology of a primitive and ancient culture made no sense. If you still believe in Jesus, then you have not dismissed the effects of the 2x2 indoctrination process chuck. The de-indoctrination process relies on "delving back into and through religion". It is through this process that one understands that all faith-based beliefs emanate from a shared mindset. I think empathy and compassion are important. I don't see the bible as being a reliable text to instil these traits. In answer to your other question How can I determine the writer's perspective when many of the writers are anonymous? The coercive threats to conform to Jesus' teachings or else are clear (see below link). A reasonable question is 'Given Christians, including yourself chuck, source their faith from the bible, why would its teachings need to be analysed? There are many people who lack the capacity to do as you are suggesting. This requirement would discriminate against those people. The thousands of Christian sects prove the zillion ways the bible can be read. The Biblical Evidence for Hell
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Post by xna on Jun 13, 2022 20:15:10 GMT -5
Exclusive Brethren
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 13, 2022 23:22:06 GMT -5
I found that quite fascinating. I have a nephew-in-law who is an ex-Brethren and who grew up in Saskatchewan and now lives in Toronto. Lots really good pictures of Toronto. The comparisons he's made between the Brethren and the F&W have been just incredible. Things apparently have changed, because his parents came to his wedding in Toronto, and he goes to visit them and attend their meetings when he wants.
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Post by Grant on Jun 14, 2022 0:54:59 GMT -5
I found that quite fascinating. I have a nephew-in-law who is an ex-Brethren and who grew up in Saskatchewan and now lives in Toronto. Lots really good pictures of Toronto. The comparisons he's made between the Brethren and the F&W have been just incredible. Things apparently have changed, because his parents came to his wedding in Toronto, and he goes to visit them and attend their meetings when he wants. There's exclusive Brethren and Open Brethren. One is exclusive the other is fairly mainline. Some still call themselves the Plymouth Brethern which was where the church originated.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 14, 2022 19:50:43 GMT -5
I found that quite fascinating. I have a nephew-in-law who is an ex-Brethren and who grew up in Saskatchewan and now lives in Toronto. Lots really good pictures of Toronto. The comparisons he's made between the Brethren and the F&W have been just incredible. Things apparently have changed, because his parents came to his wedding in Toronto, and he goes to visit them and attend their meetings when he wants. There's exclusive Brethren and Open Brethren. One is exclusive the other is fairly mainline. Some still call themselves the Plymouth Brethern which was where the church originated. I expect my nephew in law was an open brethren. Explains their use of the term EXCLUSIVE.
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Post by xna on Jun 14, 2022 20:07:11 GMT -5
There's exclusive Brethren and Open Brethren. One is exclusive the other is fairly mainline. Some still call themselves the Plymouth Brethern which was where the church originated. I expect my nephew in law was an open brethren. Explains their use of the term EXCLUSIVE. Interesting that the Brethren don’t believe in a creed then what follows is an explanation of their creed. youtu.be/r8gO-8GoQxsCreed = A set of beliefs or aims which guide someone's actions.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 14, 2022 23:33:04 GMT -5
I expect my nephew in law was an open brethren. Explains their use of the term EXCLUSIVE. Interesting that the Brethren don’t believe in a creed then what follows is an explanation of their creed. youtu.be/r8gO-8GoQxsCreed = A set of beliefs or aims which guide someone's actions. Yes, they're an interesting church that I have had a little bit to do with in a business sense.
The Exclusive Brethren here have some very strange rules and regulations, even down to your house's sewer line connection!
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Post by chuck on Jun 15, 2022 0:04:48 GMT -5
I found that quite fascinating. I have a nephew-in-law who is an ex-Brethren and who grew up in Saskatchewan and now lives in Toronto. Lots really good pictures of Toronto. The comparisons he's made between the Brethren and the F&W have been just incredible. Things apparently have changed, because his parents came to his wedding in Toronto, and he goes to visit them and attend their meetings when he wants. Originated in Ireland! 👀
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Post by chuck on Jun 15, 2022 0:05:55 GMT -5
Interesting that the Brethren don’t believe in a creed then what follows is an explanation of their creed. youtu.be/r8gO-8GoQxsCreed = A set of beliefs or aims which guide someone's actions. Yes, they're an interesting church that I have had a little bit to do with in a business sense.
The Exclusive Brethren here have some very strange rules and regulations, even down to your house's sewer line connection!
Religion cannot mind it's own frikin business.......unbelievable...
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rudyw
Senior Member
Posts: 623
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Post by rudyw on Jun 15, 2022 9:07:24 GMT -5
Religion cannot mind it's own frikin business.......unbelievable... When I sold Real Estate, I worked with a number of Exclusive Brethren and a no-no was a shared driveway. One family liked the home but were contemplating putting in a separate driveway. Up the hill that the home was on & from another street. This was to be a costly exercise. They also had home mtgs and liked their property to be private. One very nice family would not offer me a cup of tea after working with them for a couple of hours ( which wasn't very nice ). They didn’t offer you tea because they literally are not allowed to eat with others who are not members of their church.
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Post by mountain on Jun 15, 2022 10:29:17 GMT -5
The Open Brethren do not refer to themselves as 'Brethren' but rather as the 'Gospel Halls.'
I know some of them and they do invite you back for tea and sandwiches. Very nice folks, but the group does suffer from some traditional Protestant beliefs.
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Post by guest8 on Jun 17, 2022 20:22:37 GMT -5
When I sold Real Estate, I worked with a number of Exclusive Brethren and a no-no was a shared driveway. One family liked the home but were contemplating putting in a separate driveway. Up the hill that the home was on & from another street. This was to be a costly exercise. They also had home mtgs and liked their property to be private. One very nice family would not offer me a cup of tea after working with them for a couple of hours ( which wasn't very nice ). They didn’t offer you tea because they literally are not allowed to eat with others who are not members of their church. Yes.
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Post by verna on Jun 17, 2022 21:01:16 GMT -5
The Open Brethren do not refer to themselves as 'Brethren' but rather as the 'Gospel Halls.' I know some of them and they do invite you back for tea and sandwiches. Very nice folks, but the group does suffer from some traditional Protestant beliefs. Gospel halls, Christian conventions- what odd titles to choose. No ring to them for sure!
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
Posts: 573
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Post by magpies39plus on Jul 31, 2022 6:53:00 GMT -5
Australia in 1931 Bill Carroll registered the Christian Assemblies of Australia after the Convention grounds in "THAT" name was Auctioned. The name got into the media as the Vendor of the sale. "THEN"the lawyer they used pinched some of the money, God's sense of humor at work. So they revoked that name and registered The Christian Conventions of Victoria. "BUT" they revoked that one a few years ago because the Government brought in a Redress Skeme that all institutions that had any sexual,or criminal paedophile cases,rape,etc were to register to allow charges and compensation to proceed!!! Well by revoking it they can now claim now they are not an institution,shifty lot aren't they? In all my years not once have I heard any of the Trustees of those names correct anyone for saying "we are nameless and propertyless",have you? Asked Workers about these matters including Bernie Manning they all said those affairs are not their responsability or I know nothing of this,you would need to speak to somebody else!!! No wonder an exWorker said"They are masters of deceipt". Magpie.. PS any ring to them Verna?
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magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
Posts: 573
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Post by magpies39plus on Jul 31, 2022 6:58:10 GMT -5
27 Pages on this subject?? Lets see how many on the real important teachings of "GOD" in the Thread "The Lord's Prayer" ,see where the hearts are at that Gospel subject won't we?? Magpie
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