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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 4:08:10 GMT -5
Would you have to be a Catholic Bob, Don't think Wally likes Catholics. Come to think of it he doesn't seem to like anybody, only Nathan. Yes, he's more WASP than Catholic. Precisely American Christian nationalist -- hard core. More so than even 2x2. despite your narrative i am not part of any American Christian Nationalist organization. you've let "The Family" rot your brain. i have it but still haven't read it yet...
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 9, 2021 16:56:22 GMT -5
Yes, he's more WASP than Catholic. Precisely American Christian nationalist -- hard core. More so than even 2x2. despite your narrative i am not part of any American Christian Nationalist organization. you've let "The Family" rot your brain. i have it but still haven't read it yet... Of course you're not. Because there isn't any American Christian Nationalist organization. You don't have to read "The Family". You already consume all the Christian nationalist crap that you spout it verbatim whenever the topic comes up. That's precisely why your "view" of 2x2ism differs from 2x2ism in all the other countries of the world, in case you haven't figured that out.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 18:27:01 GMT -5
despite your narrative i am not part of any American Christian Nationalist organization. you've let "The Family" rot your brain. i have it but still haven't read it yet... Of course you're not. Because there isn't any American Christian Nationalist organization. You don't have to read "The Family". You already consume all the Christian nationalist crap that you spout it verbatim whenever the topic comes up. That's precisely why your "view" of 2x2ism differs from 2x2ism in all the other countries of the world, in case you haven't figured that out. back when we could meet for coffee(in the PNW) the 8-10 2x2's i gathered with of various ages held a dim view of socialism/communism and luke warm Christains and nothing friendly was ever said about it. they were not afraid to speak the Christian truth either no matter if it offends some. i'd say your "view" of 2x2ism and what is actually going on around us is a bit outdated. not one of them was part of any American Christian Nationalist Organization or Movement or however else you define it as. in case you haven't figured that out.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 9, 2021 18:41:33 GMT -5
Of course you're not. Because there isn't any American Christian Nationalist organization. You don't have to read "The Family". You already consume all the Christian nationalist crap that you spout it verbatim whenever the topic comes up. That's precisely why your "view" of 2x2ism differs from 2x2ism in all the other countries of the world, in case you haven't figured that out. back when we could meet for coffee(in the PNW) the 8-10 i gathered with of various ages held a dim view of socialism/communism and luke warm Christains and nothing friendly was ever said about it. they were not afraid to speak the Christian truth either no matter if it offends some. i'd say your "view" of 2x2ism and what is actually going on around us is a bit outdated. not one of them was part of any American Christian Nationalist Organization or Movement or however else you define it as. in case you haven't figured that out. Don't get me wrong -- I'm aware that not all the 2x2's in the US are of your persuasion. I'm saying that aside from Suchi (who doesn't count), there aren't any 2x2's on this forum who view 2x2ism as you do. I'm quite aware of quite a number of US 2x2's who disagree greatly with you on 2x2ism -- I'm not talking about them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 18:46:44 GMT -5
back when we could meet for coffee(in the PNW) the 8-10 i gathered with of various ages held a dim view of socialism/communism and luke warm Christains and nothing friendly was ever said about it. they were not afraid to speak the Christian truth either no matter if it offends some. i'd say your "view" of 2x2ism and what is actually going on around us is a bit outdated. not one of them was part of any American Christian Nationalist Organization or Movement or however else you define it as. in case you haven't figured that out. Don't get me wrong -- I'm aware that not all the 2x2's in the US are of your persuasion. I'm saying that aside from Suchi (who doesn't count), there aren't any 2x2's on this forum who view 2x2ism as you do. I'm quite aware of quite a number of US 2x2's who disagree greatly with you on 2x2ism -- I'm not talking about them. i suspect your "awareness" might be a bit of a reflection of your own "bias" or its not all its cracked up to be...
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 9, 2021 18:55:30 GMT -5
Don't get me wrong -- I'm aware that not all the 2x2's in the US are of your persuasion. I'm saying that aside from Suchi (who doesn't count), there aren't any 2x2's on this forum who view 2x2ism as you do. I'm quite aware of quite a number of US 2x2's who disagree greatly with you on 2x2ism -- I'm not talking about them. i suspect your "awareness" might be a bit of a reflection of your own "bias" or its not all its cracked up to be... Probably so. But that doesn't change how you compare to 2x2's in the rest of the world. Check all the other 2x2's here to see if I'm not right on that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 19:08:10 GMT -5
i suspect your "awareness" might be a bit of a reflection of your own "bias" or its not all its cracked up to be... Probably so. But that doesn't change how you compare to 2x2's in the rest of the world. Check all the other 2x2's here to see if I'm not right on that. well the Lord did mention that there is a thing called being "lukewarm" he also mentioned there would be a "falling away" that could very well account for some "2x2's" that are on here. i can hardly be considered "lukewarm" to God and i daily cling to God which isn't exactly a sign of "falling away"...do the math
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 9, 2021 19:09:48 GMT -5
Probably so. But that doesn't change how you compare to 2x2's in the rest of the world. Check all the other 2x2's here to see if I'm not right on that. well the Lord did mention that there is a thing called being "lukewarm" he also mentioned there would be a "falling away" that could very well account for some "2x2's" that are on here. i can hardly be considered "lukewarm" to God and i daily cling to God which isn't exactly a sign of "falling away"...do the math Still doesn't change my observation.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 20:02:54 GMT -5
You got that right Wally, not lukewarm, just cold-hearted.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 21:15:40 GMT -5
You got that right Wally, not lukewarm, just cold-hearted. another bit of lying on your part you are 0-2 for today keep up the good work. in the context of lukewarm to God that would mean cold to God which means not a believer. i am hardly an unbeliever such as yourself. maybe you are doing a bit of projection again?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 21:23:46 GMT -5
Calling someone a liar can be an insult, an opinion or hyperbole, all of which are protected by the First Amendment.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 21:30:36 GMT -5
Calling someone a liar can be an insult, an opinion or hyperbole, all of which are protected by the First Amendment. well whatever category you want to put it in is fine just as long as you acknowledge you are doing it(lying)...you never know it could be a breakthrough for you
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2021 21:55:53 GMT -5
As usual this thread has got way off topic. Time to bring it back. If you want to see more of Laura's good articles take a look at her web site. www.lauramcconnell.com.auWell worth looking at, a lot of good reading. I know that Laura tries to be respectful and honest with her interviews and articles. But she is aware that it will inevitably upset some people, that can't be avoided. But of course on the positive side it may be great help to others. Being honest is the important thing, both with yourself and all people.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 0:05:31 GMT -5
Do take a look at this article on Laura's web site. How to interact respectfully with followers of 2x2's/The Truth.
Very thoughtful, good advice.
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Post by joanna on Jan 10, 2021 1:32:15 GMT -5
slowtosee. Hello Alvin, From the perspective of the Christian and those of other faiths, it makes sense to deny that religiosity and its' impact on human psychology and consequent actions may incite violence. Whilst faith beliefs have directly contributed to the Crusades and other Holy Wars , and the violence between religious factions in the Middle East and Asia which continue to the present day, the role of faith in World War I and WWII are more easily denied. The total number of deaths caused by World War II is listed as exceeding 70 million people, making it the deadliest conflict in history. Please refer to the roots of antisemitism and how Christianity fueled the hatred of the Jews. ".... unfortunately, one of the most common unacceptable phrases a Jewish person can hear is this: âThe Jews killed Jesus.â Such condemnations have plagued the Jewish people for the last two thousand years, acting as the fuel behind countless anti-Semitic atrocities throughout history. Reference The motto of the Wehrmacht (the Nazi armed forces) was Gott mit uns (God with us). The Vatican failed to excommunicate Hitler who had been christened a roman catholic. This is an interesting insight into the complex and confusing response by the RC church to Hitler. For strategic reasons, Nazi Germany took advantage of Muslim antisemitism to increase their military powerThe fact that religious sectarianism was a salient contributor to WWII cannot be denied. The claim that World War I was a religious crusade is explained in this article When our minds are hijacked by a belief system through a process which relies on emotional blackmail - the threat of eternal punishment versus being saved from death, we are under the influence of a powerful form of mind control. The extent of this varies depending on the intensity of the belief; the ability to dilute the impact of this indoctrination by balancing authoritative controls with personal freedoms (hence the evolution of the smorgasbord churches and the common practice of cherie-picking religious texts that suit the whims of both individuals and the faith-groups. I sincerely regret being reared in the 2x2 group. However I would also have sincerely regretted being reared in any faith group as all rely on false claims. Whilst it may have been easier to belong to one of the smorgasbord churches, where it presents that one can enter and exit with greater ease, any conformity with irrational, primitive claims that are completely devoid of evidence is problematic. It is therefore misleading and it fuels the very concept of religious sectarianism when anyone applies a myopic focus on the church they were reared in, whilst simultaneously failing to acknowledge the fundamental principle supporting all and every faith belief. It would be remiss to warn 2x2 members about their belief by only referring to specific 2x2 characteristics. This would only serve to confuse and mislead the 2x2 person who may then fail to identify that the foundation of the 2x2 group is shared by all religions/faiths/unevidenced supernatural beliefs. The consequence of this is that people leave the 2x2 group and continue to manifest the impact of the original indoctrination process inflicted by the 2x2 workers. The sad irony of this appears to escape too many. The cherie-picking approach extends to a seeming preference for euphemisms that try to bypass formal "religious organisations" despite there being little to no difference in the mindset of people, whether they follow organised religion or a perceived adaptation.
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jimmy
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Post by jimmy on Jan 10, 2021 8:40:34 GMT -5
Iâm going to jump back to the YouTube clip that this thread relates to. Like Laura I am 4th generation but unlike Laura I am still active. I would have grown up about the same time as Laura but I donât know her. But a lot of elements of my experience are vastly different. Some of the issues raised such as scorning of education seem to be more an issue within sectors of the friends than with the workers. Many of the workers have a tertiary education. And I never received any blow-back from pursuing my education. Like so many groups CSA was badly (horrifically) managed but Iâm pleased to note there seems to be a very different mindset now. There is encouragement to go to authorities. I hope there is now support for victims but, unlike Laura, I am fortunate not to know any victims personally - again this may vary widely in the group.
I thought it unfair to mention a murder still to go to trial. If it is the case I believe, tragic as it is, it really has nothing to do with our group other than the victim historically grew up as a member. The tragic case of the children who committed suicide was well publicised in mainstream media which in a way Iâm glad I wasnât shielded from despite it being traumatic. The link to Nirvana was not that the music made them do it, it was that there was some professional opinion there may have been a copycat element to Kurt Cobain.
Overall I would hope that if Laura were to check back in after 20 years, she would find some things have changed for the better. Is there room for improvement- almost certainly. But overall I feel I find spiritual bread here so that is what keeps me here. But if another can find bread elsewhere thatâs fine by me.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 9:20:23 GMT -5
Thanks Jimmy for your post, good to here that things have improved in 20 years.
You said in relation to CSA victims "I hope there is now support for victims". Sounded that you weren't certain that they are getting support.
Have you read the articles on Laura's web site. Would like your comment on the one "How to interact respectfully with followers of 2x2's/The Truth."
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Post by intelchips on Jan 10, 2021 9:48:46 GMT -5
Seems to me the question should not be why are you leaving but rather what took you so long. There is so much evidence sorounding people of all ages shouting False, wrong , not reality. . . One small example thou many others exists: Even in Paulâs day we see seething schisms and attacks from within and all around, as the sect had already fragmented into several, calling each other anathema and servants of demons and false Christs. That would have been even more the case a lifetime later. The Gospels, written in the period many years after Jesus's generalized time of existence, exhibit different competing theologies and perspectives. They are in fact arguments against each other. But they affect that through allegory and fake history (Acts is another classic example). So we have to infer what the real arguments were, and often canât tell. No one tells us directly.
If one gives up religion then what? Maybe coach soccer. Help form young minds on a path that leads to good health, teamwork and a feeling of contribution. Others may have different ideas.
Why donât we know what the reaction was to the publication of the first Gospels. Neither approval nor censure, verification or falsification, we donât get to hear, and thus donât get to know, what anyoneâs reaction was. We therefore cannot claim to know it was uniformly positive. Though we know it canât have been. Because we have evidence in the second century that gives us clues of mythicize Christians the century before (e.g. The Ascension of Isaiah; 2 Peter). And the Gospels not only deliberately contradict each other on fundamental things (which no one could have simply been fine with or ever questioned or challenged: the very fact that each Gospel rewrote the ones before to say different things is evidence of disapproval of the original things said), they say wildly false things anyone could have refuted had they regarded them as making any true claims at all (e.g. that a horde of zombies descended on Jerusalem; that Jesus was famous across the entire province of Syria; that the sun went out for three hours). If anyone noticed who knew the truth, we donât get to hear what they said. And if no one who knew the truth noticed, we canât claim to know what they would have said. Except the obvious: that those things didnât happen.
Just saying read and study with a critical mind set. Most should get it soon enough.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 11:12:21 GMT -5
Iâm going to jump back to the YouTube clip that this thread relates to. Like Laura I am 4th generation but unlike Laura I am still active. I would have grown up about the same time as Laura but I donât know her. But a lot of elements of my experience are vastly different. Some of the issues raised such as scorning of education seem to be more an issue within sectors of the friends than with the workers. Many of the workers have a tertiary education. And I never received any blow-back from pursuing my education. Like so many groups CSA was badly (horrifically) managed but Iâm pleased to note there seems to be a very different mindset now. There is encouragement to go to authorities. I hope there is now support for victims but, unlike Laura, I am fortunate not to know any victims personally - again this may vary widely in the group. I thought it unfair to mention a murder still to go to trial. If it is the case I believe, tragic as it is, it really has nothing to do with our group other than the victim historically grew up as a member. The tragic case of the children who committed suicide was well publicised in mainstream media which in a way Iâm glad I wasnât shielded from despite it being traumatic. The link to Nirvana was not that the music made them do it, it was that there was some professional opinion there may have been a copycat element to Kurt Cobain. Overall I would hope that if Laura were to check back in after 20 years, she would find some things have changed for the better. Is there room for improvement- almost certainly. But overall I feel I find spiritual bread here so that is what keeps me here. But if another can find bread elsewhere thatâs fine by me. âThings arenât like that in my areaâ or âthings are a lot different nowâ tend to be standard responses to criticisms of the 2x2 sect. Such responses donât invalidate the criticisms but are often an attempt to undermine them. I suspect the real test on whether things are now different is not whether a particularly policy has changed such as the policy on womenâs education or owning a television but whether accountability, transparency and honesty are now embedded within the 2x2 church universally. For example does the church now formally and publicly acknowledge its history? Is there now transparency in relation to its rules (if it has rules) so that members can be clear as to what they are? Has the church formally acknowledged, and apologised for, its failure to deal with individual cases of CSA in the past? Does the church now have effective systems in place to hold overseers and senior workers to account? Is there now full transparency in relation to finances so that those donating can have the necessary assurances that their money is being used for the purposes for which it is given? Is there now full transparency in relation to the process for making complaints against 2x2s in positions of authority? Matt10
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jimmy
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Post by jimmy on Jan 11, 2021 8:05:47 GMT -5
Iâm going to jump back to the YouTube clip that this thread relates to. Like Laura I am 4th generation but unlike Laura I am still active. I would have grown up about the same time as Laura but I donât know her. But a lot of elements of my experience are vastly different. Some of the issues raised such as scorning of education seem to be more an issue within sectors of the friends than with the workers. Many of the workers have a tertiary education. And I never received any blow-back from pursuing my education. Like so many groups CSA was badly (horrifically) managed but Iâm pleased to note there seems to be a very different mindset now. There is encouragement to go to authorities. I hope there is now support for victims but, unlike Laura, I am fortunate not to know any victims personally - again this may vary widely in the group. I thought it unfair to mention a murder still to go to trial. If it is the case I believe, tragic as it is, it really has nothing to do with our group other than the victim historically grew up as a member. The tragic case of the children who committed suicide was well publicised in mainstream media which in a way Iâm glad I wasnât shielded from despite it being traumatic. The link to Nirvana was not that the music made them do it, it was that there was some professional opinion there may have been a copycat element to Kurt Cobain. Overall I would hope that if Laura were to check back in after 20 years, she would find some things have changed for the better. Is there room for improvement- almost certainly. But overall I feel I find spiritual bread here so that is what keeps me here. But if another can find bread elsewhere thatâs fine by me. âThings arenât like that in my areaâ or âthings are a lot different nowâ tend to be standard responses to criticisms of the 2x2 sect. Such responses donât invalidate the criticisms but are often an attempt to undermine them. I suspect the real test on whether things are now different is not whether a particularly policy has changed such as the policy on womenâs education or owning a television but whether accountability, transparency and honesty are now embedded within the 2x2 church universally. For example does the church now formally and publicly acknowledge its history? Is there now transparency in relation to its rules (if it has rules) so that members can be clear as to what they are? Has the church formally acknowledged, and apologised for, its failure to deal with individual cases of CSA in the past? Does the church now have effective systems in place to hold overseers and senior workers to account? Is there now full transparency in relation to finances so that those donating can have the necessary assurances that their money is being used for the purposes for which it is given? Is there now full transparency in relation to the process for making complaints against 2x2s in positions of authority? Matt10 I had no intention of undermining Lauraâs story. Merely I was telling some of mine. What I have observed staying within the group. I count myself fortunate to have not experienced the horrors Laura has. However, I did disagree with some of the generalisations that were drawn and I believe such discussions need to be balanced. Every case of CSA (or SA in general) is tragic whether it is within the âtruthâ or not. What I object to is the idea that all members would be indirectly complicit in such assaults to protect the reputation of the church. There is a formal framework now to go directly to the authorities that are trained to deal with such events and I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who was opposed to this. Iâm not convinced that the prevalence of assaults is higher amongst the friends but nor am I convinced it is lower than the general population and that is a tragedy in itself. Across all sectors of society this issue has been poorly managed out of shame by association so the spotlight is doing much good. I see it as a positive that things are different now. But I donât see it as a reason to be complacent. There is still a way to go with transparency but things are better rather than worse. I havenât heard for many years about the linage back to Galilee but nor have I heard told about the William Irvine component. Personally I find this a non-issue as God can raise up children of Abraham from stones (sorry probably badly misquoted). But I accept that for others this is an issue. We each have a responsibility to work out our own salvation. To discern if what we hear and see matches with the spirit of the teachings of Jesus. I donât agree with everything I hear but nor do I find solace from a particularly officious and regulated organisation which looses the essence of what Jesus came to achieve. He came to bring salvation to the babes - it doesnât take great learning or knowledge. He didnât choose great theologians to be his disciples. He chose fishermen and tax gatherers - ordinary people. He put it within our reach to come into the presence of God. We donât need priests or workers or anyone else to come into Godâs presence. But he can and does use people to show us his plan and to share our journey with us. As I see it it is all summed up in âthou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart... and thy neighbour as thyselfâ. Love is the kingdoms banner. Letâs all fly it high.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2021 11:39:32 GMT -5
âThings arenât like that in my areaâ or âthings are a lot different nowâ tend to be standard responses to criticisms of the 2x2 sect. Such responses donât invalidate the criticisms but are often an attempt to undermine them. I suspect the real test on whether things are now different is not whether a particularly policy has changed such as the policy on womenâs education or owning a television but whether accountability, transparency and honesty are now embedded within the 2x2 church universally. For example does the church now formally and publicly acknowledge its history? Is there now transparency in relation to its rules (if it has rules) so that members can be clear as to what they are? Has the church formally acknowledged, and apologised for, its failure to deal with individual cases of CSA in the past? Does the church now have effective systems in place to hold overseers and senior workers to account? Is there now full transparency in relation to finances so that those donating can have the necessary assurances that their money is being used for the purposes for which it is given? Is there now full transparency in relation to the process for making complaints against 2x2s in positions of authority? Matt10 I had no intention of undermining Lauraâs story. Merely I was telling some of mine. What I have observed staying within the group. I count myself fortunate to have not experienced the horrors Laura has. However, I did disagree with some of the generalisations that were drawn and I believe such discussions need to be balanced. Every case of CSA (or SA in general) is tragic whether it is within the âtruthâ or not. What I object to is the idea that all members would be indirectly complicit in such assaults to protect the reputation of the church. There is a formal framework now to go directly to the authorities that are trained to deal with such events and I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who was opposed to this. Iâm not convinced that the prevalence of assaults is higher amongst the friends but nor am I convinced it is lower than the general population and that is a tragedy in itself. Across all sectors of society this issue has been poorly managed out of shame by association so the spotlight is doing much good. I see it as a positive that things are different now. But I donât see it as a reason to be complacent. There is still a way to go with transparency but things are better rather than worse. I havenât heard for many years about the linage back to Galilee but nor have I heard told about the William Irvine component. Personally I find this a non-issue as God can raise up children of Abraham from stones (sorry probably badly misquoted). But I accept that for others this is an issue. We each have a responsibility to work out our own salvation. To discern if what we hear and see matches with the spirit of the teachings of Jesus. I donât agree with everything I hear but nor do I find solace from a particularly officious and regulated organisation which looses the essence of what Jesus came to achieve. He came to bring salvation to the babes - it doesnât take great learning or knowledge. He didnât choose great theologians to be his disciples. He chose fishermen and tax gatherers - ordinary people. He put it within our reach to come into the presence of God. We donât need priests or workers or anyone else to come into Godâs presence. But he can and does use people to show us his plan and to share our journey with us. As I see it it is all summed up in âthou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart... and thy neighbour as thyselfâ. Love is the kingdoms banner. Letâs all fly it high. I've been overtly critical of what I feel are mechanisms and dogmas in the 2x2s which lead to a state of the members being morally confused as to their responsibilities involving CSA. However, I appreciate Jimmy's measured response, and hope that it is shared in the majority. Not long ago, a response like that would've been a small minority opinion. It's easy for folks who have been out for a while to forget how things have changed. I would say it's also easy for the individuals like Jimmy who have their heads on straight to intrinsically be mildly skeptical of some of the claims. I say this because I well remember my own reluctance and moral confusion to consider some of the things I now find abhorrent when I was a lockstep 2x2. About a year before we left the truth, I became aware of just how many people, workers and friends, were aware of a case of abuse that hits close to home and was covered up for the peace of the kingdom. A professing couple in their 60s told me in tears that if they could go back in time, they would've gotten the police involved and make sure it had been stopped instead of going on for a decade. These are good people, but the professing dogma of "keep the peace" and generally pattern of "workers/ elders/ pillars can do no wrong" caused otherwise good people to put the worst of all evils out of their minds. I believe them when they say they would act differently today. I came to the conclusion some time ago that rather than destroy the 2x2 fellowship entirely, destroying the evil within it was more useful.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jan 11, 2021 14:23:28 GMT -5
Just cause đ
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2021 17:02:43 GMT -5
âThings arenât like that in my areaâ or âthings are a lot different nowâ tend to be standard responses to criticisms of the 2x2 sect. Such responses donât invalidate the criticisms but are often an attempt to undermine them. I suspect the real test on whether things are now different is not whether a particularly policy has changed such as the policy on womenâs education or owning a television but whether accountability, transparency and honesty are now embedded within the 2x2 church universally. For example does the church now formally and publicly acknowledge its history? Is there now transparency in relation to its rules (if it has rules) so that members can be clear as to what they are? Has the church formally acknowledged, and apologised for, its failure to deal with individual cases of CSA in the past? Does the church now have effective systems in place to hold overseers and senior workers to account? Is there now full transparency in relation to finances so that those donating can have the necessary assurances that their money is being used for the purposes for which it is given? Is there now full transparency in relation to the process for making complaints against 2x2s in positions of authority? Matt10 I had no intention of undermining Lauraâs story. Merely I was telling some of mine. What I have observed staying within the group. I count myself fortunate to have not experienced the horrors Laura has. However, I did disagree with some of the generalisations that were drawn and I believe such discussions need to be balanced. Every case of CSA (or SA in general) is tragic whether it is within the âtruthâ or not. What I object to is the idea that all members would be indirectly complicit in such assaults to protect the reputation of the church. There is a formal framework now to go directly to the authorities that are trained to deal with such events and I think you would be hard pressed to find anyone who was opposed to this. Iâm not convinced that the prevalence of assaults is higher amongst the friends but nor am I convinced it is lower than the general population and that is a tragedy in itself. Across all sectors of society this issue has been poorly managed out of shame by association so the spotlight is doing much good. I see it as a positive that things are different now. But I donât see it as a reason to be complacent. There is still a way to go with transparency but things are better rather than worse. I havenât heard for many years about the linage back to Galilee but nor have I heard told about the William Irvine component. Personally I find this a non-issue as God can raise up children of Abraham from stones (sorry probably badly misquoted). But I accept that for others this is an issue. We each have a responsibility to work out our own salvation. To discern if what we hear and see matches with the spirit of the teachings of Jesus. I donât agree with everything I hear but nor do I find solace from a particularly officious and regulated organisation which looses the essence of what Jesus came to achieve. He came to bring salvation to the babes - it doesnât take great learning or knowledge. He didnât choose great theologians to be his disciples. He chose fishermen and tax gatherers - ordinary people. He put it within our reach to come into the presence of God. We donât need priests or workers or anyone else to come into Godâs presence. But he can and does use people to show us his plan and to share our journey with us. As I see it it is all summed up in âthou shalt love the lord thy God with all thy heart... and thy neighbour as thyselfâ. Love is the kingdoms banner. Letâs all fly it high. It wasnât my intention to point the finger directly at you but rather to point out that such responses are commonly used to undermine legitimate criticisms that have been made of the church. However it isnât the only approach used. Other approaches include, for example, minimising the misleading of people over the sectâs true history (âthe history is not important to meâ) or attempting to deflect away from criticisms of the 2x2 church (âletâs talk about other churchesâ). In my view real change comes when the sect is prepared to talk about legitimate criticisms rather the employing the long established tactics used to avoid talking about them. The issues are of course wider than just CSA and while progress on that front is to be welcomed (a whole suite of avoidance tactics having been adopted until relatively recently), what I was trying to establish by my questions was whether issues such as accountability, transparency and honesty are now core values of the 2x2 church or whether the changes which you refer to have been undertaken reluctantly when the drivers for change were no longer possible to ignore (as was the case with CSA). I suspect that people can draw their own conclusions from the responses to the questions which I posed. Iâm not going to get into the God (or Jesus) stuff as this is not a discussion about God and in my experience the God card can be played to support almost anything and has often been cleverly used by the 2x2 church to justify (or avoid dealing with) bad behaviour. Itâs an effective tool for controlling members. Itâs really only when one escapes from the 2x2 mindset that one realises the level of religious conditioning that one was subjected to and begins to recognise all the various tactics that are adopted to keep the believer believing and to keep the 2x2 myth alive. Matt10
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2021 17:36:00 GMT -5
I find that there is a tendency for 2x2's to be ambiguous and evasive in giving answers to questions. Never quite sure about themselves. IMO caused by an Organisation without any defined structure. Nobody really knows who is running the show, everybody becomes unsure of what to say. There is no direction.
I don't think, "I hope there is now support for victims" would give people confidence that the issue it is being addressed.
If the 2x2 Church is fair dinkum about supporting victims they would register in the National Redress Scheme set up by the Government. I have checked the list of Organisations that have registered, but don't see 2x2. Of course a Church with no name may find it hard to register. But the powers that be should make a statement for all to see, that is what is needed, better disclosure.
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Post by joanna on Jan 11, 2021 18:59:23 GMT -5
A supercomputer is turned on and asked: is there a God? Now there is, comes the replyjimmy jimmy If the issues which exist in the 2x2 group were unique to it, then limiting our criticisms to this group would be the right thing to do. However they are not unique. Child Sex Abuse; false historical claims; the subordination of women; conforming to authoritarianism without questioning; a lack of financial transparency; shunning; bullying and sectarianism are generic traits, in a greater or lesser degree, across the majority of religious beliefs. Once we identify that these issues absolutely exist within the 2x2 group, it is beneficial to platform off that knowledge by identifying that the very nature of a faith based belief fosters covering up the abuse of children; restrictions on women; a patriarchal hierarchy; the accruing of wealth under a charitable auspice; making truth claims whether historical or otherwise that are unevidenced and false; pitting individuals against each other and alienating members to various degrees from other faith beliefs. The above line which refers to the potential of a supercomputer to be worshipped as a god was retrieved from this article: Tomorrow's Gods: What is the future of religion?The responses by 2x2 members to criticism on this forum appears to include a common theme: that standards are changing.From what I know, this seems to be true. Dress codes are evolving (probably dependent on geography) and involvement in what were previously classed as 'wordly and out of bounds'is now seemingly tolerated. But even when I was in it, there were other young people who engaged in activities that I was banned from doing. Individual stories of ex 2x2's rely on individual perceptions and it is challenging to accurately discern whether they are objective or biased. My family was extremely strict and the female influence ironically perpetuated the suppression of women more than the males did. I knew of other 2x2 females who were encouraged to go to university straight from school and they attained degrees whilst young (unlike those of us who took a while to muster the self-confidence to 'rebel' and go to uni). That these women who went straight from high school to university remained 'professing' / in the 2x2 group, seems to indicate that it was more the individual family attitude rather than a 2x2 ruling. This was also in the Eastern Australian states including Victoria. Ayaan Hirsi Ali is an ex-muslim author, humanitarian and activist. She encourages all to apply rational thinking. But she is also calling for Islam to undergo a revolution. Whilst her ideal is for people to source evidenced-based claims and to refute belief in god(s), she understands that many will be unable to overcome and dismiss the faith they have been indoctrinated into. So she works to empower Muslim activists to change from within. Islam is approximately 600 years younger than Christianity and the Roman Catholic (commonly referred to as the first Christian church) reformation involved a modification in the RC tenets and the formation of the new protestant faith. If change from within is a viable method to initiate change within the 2x2 group for those individuals who are unable to dismiss their belief in a god, I think it is important to acknowledge the contributors to the generic issues of faith-based groups. The Australian Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse found that the unique characteristics of religious organisations (no wonder believers oppose identifying with this terminology) cultivate the abuse of children and the efforts by leaders and members to cover up these shocking crimes. ".... we heard more allegations of child sexual abuse in relation to institutions managed by religious organisations than any other management type".Not one faith-based belief across the globe has ever been able to prove the fundamental claims their belief is based upon. The in excess of 30,000 Christian sects all emanate from the Christian bible which has been evidenced to contain false and misleading claims - the opposite to"The Truth". The Problem of the Bible. Faith beliefs are framed by Mythology. Religions / faith beliefs were created by men for men and they perpetuate a patriarchal hierarchy that suppresses the rights of females. Some are doing their best to overcome this fundamental attitude however promoting the bible as your salient text whilst simultaneously contradicting its' overwhelming misogynistic tone Ten Biblical Teachings which suppress women is inconsistent even if it has positive impacts. Have a read of this Why Authoritarians Love Religion "The authoritarian personality finds in religion a match made in Heaven" as it helps to explain the behaviours of some of the 2x2 workers and 2x2 parents and other religious leaders and members. Religiosity (or whatever your preferred euphemism) provides an 'ideal' catalyst for those individuals who possess a tendency to control and subordinate. When individuals criticise the 2x2 group for their lack of financial transparency, they are right to do so. Given honesty is the apparent motivation for this criticism, they should also acknowledge that the vast majority of churches are not financially transparent. " less than ten percent of them are truly transparent" How to check your church for financial transparency. Some forum members have posted that their church provides financial statements. It is a no-brainer that these do not guarantee their church is being honest in its' financial dealings. "Many churches today will provide a financial report to their members once a year. This fact alone does not mean, I repeat, does NOT mean your church is financially transparent". I am motivated to write this (for what is may be worth to both encourage people to think for themselves and to avoid fuelling sectarianism. To deny that the 2x2 issues are generic to most faith-based beliefs is dishonest and surely honesty is a trait that both believers and non-believers should respect. If you cannot leave the 2x2 group then hopefully you are actively promoting positive changes by diluting the bible's teachings in the process.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2021 19:32:07 GMT -5
The protestant church's evolving mantra
1. The Catholic church is of the devil! 2. The Catholic church is wrong and dangerous 3. We disagree with the Catholic doctrines of [a,b,c...] 4. Doctrine aside, the Catholic church is full of dangerous pedophiles. 5. Every church has CSA problems. We're no different than the Catholics after all. 6. Things are getting better in [insert protestant sect]. (As church struggles to catch up with the steps the Catholic church has taken to protect children)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2021 20:23:34 GMT -5
Nobody is convinced that anything is being done for Victims. Yet the Policy Statement states, The testimony of our fellowship is supported and maintained by an open and transparent policy.
Time to tell the World what is happening.
Child Safe Policy Policy Statement
As a fellowship we are committed to providing a safe and secure environment for children (under the age of 18). All children have a right to feel safe. We are committed to the safety and well-being of all children. We will ensure that a caring and appropriate response is initiated should abuse or suspicion of abuse occur.
This policy was written with a focus on children who come into contact with any part of the fellowship.
The testimony of our fellowship is supported and maintained by an open and transparent policy.
Information from National Redress Scheme web site. All institutions where the sexual abuse of children occurred must be accountable for that abuse and should join the National Redress Scheme (the Scheme) without delay.
Tell us 2x2's have you joined.
There is no mention in the Child Safe Policy Statement, regarding support for victims. Why not???.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 0:31:30 GMT -5
Nobody is convinced that anything is being done for Victims. Yet the Policy Statement states, The testimony of our fellowship is supported and maintained by an open and transparent policy. Time to tell the World what is happening. Child Safe Policy Policy Statement As a fellowship we are committed to providing a safe and secure environment for children (under the age of 18). All children have a right to feel safe. We are committed to the safety and well-being of all children. We will ensure that a caring and appropriate response is initiated should abuse or suspicion of abuse occur. This policy was written with a focus on children who come into contact with any part of the fellowship. The testimony of our fellowship is supported and maintained by an open and transparent policy. Information from National Redress Scheme web site. All institutions where the sexual abuse of children occurred must be accountable for that abuse and should join the National Redress Scheme (the Scheme) without delay. Tell us 2x2's have you joined. There is no mention in the Child Safe Policy Statement, regarding support for victims. Why not???. I get the impression that they're going swimming in a cold pond, one shivering and reluctant toe at a time. By not just plunging in, they're hoping that people get bored with swimming before anyone notices they're hardly wet.
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