jimmy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by jimmy on Jan 12, 2021 7:27:41 GMT -5
Nobody is convinced that anything is being done for Victims. Yet the Policy Statement states, The testimony of our fellowship is supported and maintained by an open and transparent policy. Time to tell the World what is happening. Child Safe Policy Policy Statement As a fellowship we are committed to providing a safe and secure environment for children (under the age of 18). All children have a right to feel safe. We are committed to the safety and well-being of all children. We will ensure that a caring and appropriate response is initiated should abuse or suspicion of abuse occur. This policy was written with a focus on children who come into contact with any part of the fellowship. The testimony of our fellowship is supported and maintained by an open and transparent policy. Information from National Redress Scheme web site. All institutions where the sexual abuse of children occurred must be accountable for that abuse and should join the National Redress Scheme (the Scheme) without delay. Tell us 2x2's have you joined. There is no mention in the Child Safe Policy Statement, regarding support for victims. Why not???. I get the impression that they're going swimming in a cold pond, one shivering and reluctant toe at a time. By not just plunging in, they're hoping that people get bored with swimming before anyone notices they're hardly wet. I agree that it took far too long for our group to act on the issue of CSA. I suspect that mostly this was out of naivety and shame than an evil motive. Many cogs had to turn for change to happen - I know in Australia there has been more shuffling of overseers in the past few years than ever before. Many people have stuck their necks out to bring change but in an unwieldy organisation change will always be slow. I don’t believe that many want to go back to the status quo but yes it has been a slow crawl into the water! My comment about support for victims (hoping it is there) stems from the fortunate position of not knowing any victims within the fellowship. (I do however have a very close association with a victim of CSA that occurred outside the 2x2s and see the pain that this causes many years from the event on a daily basis. It probably fuels my opinions on what should be done to perpetrators and that is more along the line of millstones around necks than forgiveness!!).
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jimmy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by jimmy on Jan 12, 2021 7:43:25 GMT -5
[quote author="@ipsedixit" source="/post/942118/thread" timestamp="1610383172"] [/quote] I've been overtly critical of what I feel are mechanisms and dogmas in the 2x2s which lead to a state of the members being morally confused as to their responsibilities involving CSA. However, I appreciate Jimmy's measured response, and hope that it is shared in the majority. Not long ago, a response like that would've been a small minority opinion. It's easy for folks who have been out for a while to forget how things have changed.
I would say it's also easy for the individuals like Jimmy who have their heads on straight to intrinsically be mildly skeptical of some of the claims. I say this because I well remember my own reluctance and moral confusion to consider some of the things I now find abhorrent when I was a lockstep 2x2.
About a year before we left the truth, I became aware of just how many people, workers and friends, were aware of a case of abuse that hits close to home and was covered up for the peace of the kingdom. A professing couple in their 60s told me in tears that if they could go back in time, they would've gotten the police involved and make sure it had been stopped instead of going on for a decade. These are good people, but the professing dogma of "keep the peace" and generally pattern of "workers/ elders/ pillars can do no wrong" caused otherwise good people to put the worst of all evils out of their minds.
I believe them when they say they would act differently today. I came to the conclusion some time ago that rather than destroy the 2x2 fellowship entirely, destroying the evil within it was more useful. [/quote][/font][/font]
(Sorry I tried to shorten the tread and I have stuffed up the quote function. My bad )
Yes the difference between being a peace-keeper and being a peace-maker is often overlooked. Making peace is a costly, active process. Wars are fought to make peace.
I consider myself fortunate that I was not raised to see workers etc as infallible and that my parents and grandparents had the wisdom to see and share that they were still human, they were fallible and sometimes they were plain wrong. I do know this wasn’t everyone’s experience but I am grateful it was mine.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2021 18:53:04 GMT -5
Jimmie thank you for your honest comments. I did find your comment, "I know in Australia there has been more shuffling of overseers in the past few years than ever before. Many people have stuck their necks out to bring change but in an unwieldy organisation change will always be slow." a bit disconcerting.
Any Organisation that is unwieldy, becomes disorganised and does not function efficiently. This means that any problems are not addressed and get swept aside. For a strong Organisation stable leadership is essential.
For those of us who have been fortunate enough to be involved in a main stream Church, we have seen the benefits of good management.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 12, 2021 19:12:09 GMT -5
Jimmie thank you for your honest comments. I did find your comment, "I know in Australia there has been more shuffling of overseers in the past few years than ever before. Many people have stuck their necks out to bring change but in an unwieldy organisation change will always be slow." a bit disconcerting. Any Organisation that is unwieldy, becomes disorganised and does not function efficiently. This means that any problems are not addressed and get swept aside. For a strong Organisation stable leadership is essential. For those of us who have been fortunate enough to be involved in a main stream Church, we have seen the benefits of good management. I am not greatly surprised that a lot of apparent upheavals have occurred in the 2x2 hierarchy. But my guess is that when all things are normalized, the ministry will still have a list of empirical evidence that can be used to maintain their control over the flock.
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Post by openingact34 on Jan 12, 2021 23:42:40 GMT -5
I consider myself fortunate that I was not raised to see workers etc as infallible and that my parents and grandparents had the wisdom to see and share that they were still human, they were fallible and sometimes they were plain wrong. I do know this wasn’t everyone’s experience but I am grateful it was mine. I don't really think anyone viewed the workers as infallible. Rather, faithful people believe in the power of prayer and the ability God to guide the workers. Starting with Paul and continuing to the overseers today, God successfully dictated all the minute details of how to live your life including how long your hair could be, what job you can have, what kind of watch you can wear, what color stockings are acceptable, and so forth. We all witnessed the dedication to praying and diligently seeking this guidance. With a pure and childlike faith in these matters, all were even more trusting of God and his true servants in the most serious issues like how to deal with a CSA case!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 13, 2021 0:43:33 GMT -5
I consider myself fortunate that I was not raised to see workers etc as infallible and that my parents and grandparents had the wisdom to see and share that they were still human, they were fallible and sometimes they were plain wrong. I do know this wasn’t everyone’s experience but I am grateful it was mine. I don't really think anyone viewed the workers as infallible. Rather, faithful people believe in the power of prayer and the ability God to guide the workers. Starting with Paul and continuing to the overseers today, God successfully dictated all the minute details of how to live your life including how long your hair could be, what job you can have, what kind of watch you can wear, what color stockings are acceptable, and so forth. We all witnessed the dedication to praying and diligently seeking this guidance. With a pure and childlike faith in these matters, all were even more trusting of God and his true servants in the most serious issues like how to deal with a CSA case! The guy in your avatar isn't helping your testimony at all.
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Post by openingact34 on Jan 13, 2021 1:06:33 GMT -5
I don't really think anyone viewed the workers as infallible. Rather, faithful people believe in the power of prayer and the ability God to guide the workers. Starting with Paul and continuing to the overseers today, God successfully dictated all the minute details of how to live your life including how long your hair could be, what job you can have, what kind of watch you can wear, what color stockings are acceptable, and so forth. We all witnessed the dedication to praying and diligently seeking this guidance. With a pure and childlike faith in these matters, all were even more trusting of God and his true servants in the most serious issues like how to deal with a CSA case! The guy in your avatar isn't helping your testimony at all. Yes, someone who promises to eternally torture billions of humans with molten sulfur is pretty disturbing. But on the bright side, my avatar also contains Trump! (much nicer)
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 13, 2021 1:12:36 GMT -5
The guy in your avatar isn't helping your testimony at all. Yes, someone who promises to eternally torture billions of humans with molten sulfur is pretty disturbing. But on the bright side, my avatar also contains Trump! (much nicer) You have rather interesting taste.
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Post by Dan on Jan 13, 2021 3:16:54 GMT -5
The guy in your avatar isn't helping your testimony at all.
Neither is the guy in your avatar
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Post by chuck on Jan 13, 2021 3:36:51 GMT -5
The guy in your avatar isn't helping your testimony at all. Yes, someone who promises to eternally torture billions of humans with molten sulfur is pretty disturbing. But on the bright side, my avatar also contains Trump! (much nicer) Considering Jonah was in the belly of the fish forever, 3 days is kinda a quick turnaround to gather up that much molten sulphur. How do you propose God rounds up billions in 3 days. Alternatively your missing the mark...
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jimmy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by jimmy on Jan 13, 2021 7:44:41 GMT -5
Jimmie thank you for your honest comments. I did find your comment, "I know in Australia there has been more shuffling of overseers in the past few years than ever before. Many people have stuck their necks out to bring change but in an unwieldy organisation change will always be slow." a bit disconcerting. Any Organisation that is unwieldy, becomes disorganised and does not function efficiently. This means that any problems are not addressed and get swept aside. For a strong Organisation stable leadership is essential. For those of us who have been fortunate enough to be involved in a main stream Church, we have seen the benefits of good management. As a business model the 2x2s would be a disaster. No formal regulations or operating framework. Of course it’s not efficient. But somehow for me red tape and efficiency don’t make substance. The fact that something that shouldn’t work does work as well as it does is something of itself. But I guess for me it is the fellowship of our little church that keeps me there. Genuine people living what they believe. Maybe I’m fortunate to be in a meeting where substance seems to be more important than style. However, if you find your bread elsewhere I’m ok with that. (And yes I know not everyone would agree with me on that but I can’t reconcile God who sent salvation to the whole world to say that you only can have it if your backside is sitting in the right chair.)
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2021 13:57:42 GMT -5
Jimmie thank you for your honest comments. I did find your comment, "I know in Australia there has been more shuffling of overseers in the past few years than ever before. Many people have stuck their necks out to bring change but in an unwieldy organisation change will always be slow." a bit disconcerting. Any Organisation that is unwieldy, becomes disorganised and does not function efficiently. This means that any problems are not addressed and get swept aside. For a strong Organisation stable leadership is essential. For those of us who have been fortunate enough to be involved in a main stream Church, we have seen the benefits of good management. As a business model the 2x2s would be a disaster. No formal regulations or operating framework. Of course it’s not efficient. But somehow for me red tape and efficiency don’t make substance. The fact that something that shouldn’t work does work as well as it does is something of itself. But I guess for me it is the fellowship of our little church that keeps me there. Genuine people living what they believe. Maybe I’m fortunate to be in a meeting where substance seems to be more important than style. However, if you find your bread elsewhere I’m ok with that. (And yes I know not everyone would agree with me on that but I can’t reconcile God who sent salvation to the whole world to say that you only can have it if your backside is sitting in the right chair.) Of course there are plenty of regulations. Anyone who was a 2x2 member will be in no doubt as to what many of these regulations are. And anyone who has contravened them will understand all too well what the penalties are. The fact that they are not written down does not equate to there being no regulations any more than a verbal contract equates to there being no formal contract. I’m not sure what the difference between “formal” regulations and any other type of regulations is, but I suspect that presenting it as no “formal” regulations may be the 2x2 way of suggesting that there are no regulations without specifically saying so thereby providing scope to back either horse on the day. And while it isn’t clarified exactly what is meant by “operating framework” (it’s difficult to refute something so vague) it will be clear to those who were part of the 2x2 system that there are plenty of systems and structures in place within which the 2x2 church operates in addition to well established customs and practices. If these don’t constitute an “operating framework” I’m not sure what does but I’m happy to have it clarified. Matt10
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Post by nathan on Jan 13, 2021 14:13:44 GMT -5
Jimmie thank you for your honest comments. I did find your comment, "I know in Australia there has been more shuffling of overseers in the past few years than ever before. Many people have stuck their necks out to bring change but in an unwieldy organisation change will always be slow." a bit disconcerting. Any Organisation that is unwieldy, becomes disorganised and does not function efficiently. This means that any problems are not addressed and get swept aside. For a strong Organisation stable leadership is essential. For those of us who have been fortunate enough to be involved in a main stream Church, we have seen the benefits of good management. As a business model the 2x2s would be a disaster. No formal regulations or operating framework. Of course it’s not efficient. But somehow for me red tape and efficiency don’t make substance. The fact that something that shouldn’t work does work as well as it does is something of itself. But I guess for me it is the fellowship of our little church that keeps me there. Genuine people living what they believe. Maybe I’m fortunate to be in a meeting where substance seems to be more important than style. However, if you find your bread elsewhere I’m ok with that. (And yes I know not everyone would agree with me on that but I can’t reconcile God who sent salvation to the whole world to say that you only can have it if your backside is sitting in the right chair.) ** If our fellowship were humans origin and pattern after commandments, teachings and tradition of men, it would have failed long time ago! The 2x2 apostolic ministry and the Sunday worship started by God, Christ/Jesus and Holy Spirit so, it will work and continue to work to the time of Jesus returns to set up His Eternal kingdom on earth for 1000 year with His people. In Matthew 18 to His apostles "Upon this Rock/Christ I will BUILD my Church and the gates of HELL shall NOT prevail against it." The EXES can slow God's truth from growing but they can't defeat or win against God. All they do is helping to purifying/cleansing the ministry and the church to bring the DROSS to the surface and to discard the unwanted junk. God and Christ and the Holy Spirit have promised the Mi is try and the TRUE BRIDEof Christ like the apples of His eyes! Read Rev. Chapters 11 and 12.
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Post by bfvernon on Jan 13, 2021 14:32:34 GMT -5
Nathan, I asked you not to post on this thread.
As for the 2x2s being pure gold, and us exes being dross - that’s spiritual abuse. “Love one another as I have loved you”. “Unwanted junk” - are you saying that I’m “junk”?
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Post by nathan on Jan 13, 2021 15:26:48 GMT -5
Nathan, I asked you not to post on this thread. As for the 2x2s being pure gold, and us exes being dross - that’s spiritual abuse. “Love one another as I have loved you”. “Unwanted junk” - are you saying that I’m “junk”? ** You are NOT the Admn. so, you can't tell NOT to post or when to post.
If you started your own board then you can set your own rules and tell so and so NOT to post.
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Post by speak on Jan 13, 2021 15:52:11 GMT -5
I get the impression that they're going swimming in a cold pond, one shivering and reluctant toe at a time. By not just plunging in, they're hoping that people get bored with swimming before anyone notices they're hardly wet. I agree that it took far too long for our group to act on the issue of CSA. I suspect that mostly this was out of naivety and shame than an evil motive. Many cogs had to turn for change to happen - I know in Australia there has been more shuffling of overseers in the past few years than ever before. Many people have stuck their necks out to bring change but in an unwieldy organisation change will always be slow. I don’t believe that many want to go back to the status quo but yes it has been a slow crawl into the water! My comment about support for victims (hoping it is there) stems from the fortunate position of not knowing any victims within the fellowship. (I do however have a very close association with a victim of CSA that occurred outside the 2x2s and see the pain that this causes many years from the event on a daily basis. It probably fuels my opinions on what should be done to perpetrators and that is more along the line of millstones around necks than forgiveness!!). But don't forget forgiveness because it is of God.
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Post by speak on Jan 13, 2021 15:54:47 GMT -5
Yes, someone who promises to eternally torture billions of humans with molten sulfur is pretty disturbing. But on the bright side, my avatar also contains Trump! (much nicer) You have rather interesting taste. Bizarre
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Post by speak on Jan 13, 2021 15:55:37 GMT -5
The guy in your avatar isn't helping your testimony at all.
Neither is the guy in your avatar
Well that's done you a lot of Good
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 13, 2021 20:06:22 GMT -5
Jimmie thank you for your honest comments. I did find your comment, "I know in Australia there has been more shuffling of overseers in the past few years than ever before. Many people have stuck their necks out to bring change but in an unwieldy organisation change will always be slow." a bit disconcerting. Any Organisation that is unwieldy, becomes disorganised and does not function efficiently. This means that any problems are not addressed and get swept aside. For a strong Organisation stable leadership is essential. For those of us who have been fortunate enough to be involved in a main stream Church, we have seen the benefits of good management. As a business model the 2x2s would be a disaster. No formal regulations or operating framework. Of course it’s not efficient. But somehow for me red tape and efficiency don’t make substance. The fact that something that shouldn’t work does work as well as it does is something of itself. But I guess for me it is the fellowship of our little church that keeps me there. Genuine people living what they believe. Maybe I’m fortunate to be in a meeting where substance seems to be more important than style. However, if you find your bread elsewhere I’m ok with that. (And yes I know not everyone would agree with me on that but I can’t reconcile God who sent salvation to the whole world to say that you only can have it if your backside is sitting in the right chair.) You should try a meeting where they threaten to put each other in prison. hahaha
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jimmy
Junior Member
Posts: 79
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Post by jimmy on Jan 15, 2021 5:05:21 GMT -5
As a business model the 2x2s would be a disaster. No formal regulations or operating framework. Of course it’s not efficient. But somehow for me red tape and efficiency don’t make substance. The fact that something that shouldn’t work does work as well as it does is something of itself. But I guess for me it is the fellowship of our little church that keeps me there. Genuine people living what they believe. Maybe I’m fortunate to be in a meeting where substance seems to be more important than style. However, if you find your bread elsewhere I’m ok with that. (And yes I know not everyone would agree with me on that but I can’t reconcile God who sent salvation to the whole world to say that you only can have it if your backside is sitting in the right chair.) You should try a meeting where they threaten to put each other in prison. hahaha Hmmm, that would have me reconsidering my position I think. I’ve seen enough to know people are never perfect and that it is possible to have a very toxic group supposedly in fellowship. As I said, I consider myself fortunate. I am sure God is in our fellowship, but if another finds him elsewhere I have no right to say they are wrong. I see my relationship with God as a personal one. Those we have fellowship with can encourage us. And I don’t think that does just have to be our fellowship meeting. Even a forum like this could be encouraging if we could focus on the common goal and not the path each is treading to get there.
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Post by speak on Jan 15, 2021 17:24:19 GMT -5
You should try a meeting where they threaten to put each other in prison. hahaha Hmmm, that would have me reconsidering my position I think. I’ve seen enough to know people are never perfect and that it is possible to have a very toxic group supposedly in fellowship. As I said, I consider myself fortunate. I am sure God is in our fellowship, but if another finds him elsewhere I have no right to say they are wrong. I see my relationship with God as a personal one. Those we have fellowship with can encourage us. And I don’t think that does just have to be our fellowship meeting. Even a forum like this could be encouraging if we could focus on the common goal and not the path each is treading to get there. nicely spoken there Jimmy
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 18:41:09 GMT -5
You should try a meeting where they threaten to put each other in prison. hahaha Hmmm, that would have me reconsidering my position I think. I’ve seen enough to know people are never perfect and that it is possible to have a very toxic group supposedly in fellowship. As I said, I consider myself fortunate. I am sure God is in our fellowship, but if another finds him elsewhere I have no right to say they are wrong. I see my relationship with God as a personal one. Those we have fellowship with can encourage us. And I don’t think that does just have to be our fellowship meeting. Even a forum like this could be encouraging if we could focus on the common goal and not the path each is treading to get there. Unfortunately we don’t have a common goal here to focus on. Our commonality is from where we came. Our goals are all different from here on. Some are here to promote truth. Others are here to promote their beliefs. Some are here to seek truth. Others are here to tell anyone who will listen that they, and they alone, have found it. For some here ignorance is the enemy. For others ignorance is something to be wallowed in. The only thing we have in common here is our pasts. That and our rejection of most gods/Gods. Matt10
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 15, 2021 18:58:23 GMT -5
And occasionally someone comes here just to see how weird some people can be.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 15, 2021 19:14:35 GMT -5
Hmmm, that would have me reconsidering my position I think. I’ve seen enough to know people are never perfect and that it is possible to have a very toxic group supposedly in fellowship. As I said, I consider myself fortunate. I am sure God is in our fellowship, but if another finds him elsewhere I have no right to say they are wrong. I see my relationship with God as a personal one. Those we have fellowship with can encourage us. And I don’t think that does just have to be our fellowship meeting. Even a forum like this could be encouraging if we could focus on the common goal and not the path each is treading to get there. Unfortunately we don’t have a common goal here to focus on. Our commonality is from where we came. Our goals are all different from here on. Some are here to promote truth. Others are here to promote their beliefs. Some are here to seek truth. Others are here to tell anyone who will listen that they, and they alone, have found it. For some here ignorance is the enemy. For others ignorance is something to be wallowed in. The only thing we have in common here is our pasts. That and our rejection of most gods/Gods. Matt10 I do have to add that I read some VERY wise and instructive thoughts from some people on here. That's probably one of the reasons I still come here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 19:17:13 GMT -5
Narcissists have to demonize you so they can appear innocent and angelic. They have zero accountability for the evil they do. Narcissists feel entitled to destroy anyone they can't control and exploit.
Atheists have been demonised on this forum, for no good reason. They are better people than most of us, Snow is a good example. Yet because of the constant attack on her, had to leave to protect her own mind. That is a sad state of affairs and should not happen.
Maybe forums are not the best place to get to know people properly. It would be much better if we could all sit at a Bar, I am sure we would enjoy each others company. Bit hard to do, but we could try harder to achieve the same thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 20:09:36 GMT -5
Narcissists have to demonize you so they can appear innocent and angelic. They have zero accountability for the evil they do. Narcissists feel entitled to destroy anyone they can't control and exploit. Atheists have been demonised on this forum, for no good reason. They are better people than most of us, Snow is a good example. Yet because of the constant attack on her, had to leave to protect her own mind. That is a sad state of affairs and should not happen. Maybe forums are not the best place to get to know people properly. It would be much better if we could all sit at a Bar, I am sure we would enjoy each others company. Bit hard to do, but we could try harder to achieve the same thing. hmmm implying or labeling others as narcissistic might be considered demonizing someone so you can appear innocent and angelic. i DO NOT remember snow being under "constant attack" so i have no idea what you are talking about. she wasn't even close to being as militant as the other atheists here. its a fine line between attacking the idea or the person and having been on(as client/mod/admin) more than a few forums including TMB i've seen BOTH sides of the issue do it quite often including here on TMB. sometimes people BECOME their idea so there is no line and there is little choice but to verbally whack them. atheists here haven't been demonized anymore than any other group or individual on TMB welcome to real life. so your pity party should probably only include you.. no one is clean including you or me or anyone else here... debates are rarely friendly although they maybe seeking to convert the other side to their side. the truth is rarely friendly either depending on which side you are supporting. forums are NOT for the faint of heart...a seriously indisputable fact i agree in person people are a bit more polite... what is that old adage? if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 20:35:31 GMT -5
In such a diverse group of people that we have on TMB you are bound to get a Narcissist.
“Narcissistic personality disorder is the only mental condition where the patient is left alone but everyone else needs treatment.” — Anonymous
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2021 20:40:42 GMT -5
In such a diverse group of people that we have on TMB you are bound to get a Narcissist. “Narcissistic personality disorder is the only mental condition where the patient is left alone but everyone else needs treatment.” — Anonymous guessing about such things is far different than knowing about things and doesn't yield much fact in the realm of psychology. Dr. Redback
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