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Post by chuck on Feb 4, 2021 4:20:16 GMT -5
But Nathan, the lake of fire/Gehenna is a parkland today, the fire has gone out..... And the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are not waiting......they are already a example, so Im not sure how you can say they are waiting in someplace you see in your mind......unless it was just describing present reality and there really is not literal place like you think Luke 16 describes. Where is the smoke rising from the eternal fire at Sodom and Gomorrah? So you've just explained a western white mans perspective steeped in Roman Catholicism. Now explain it from a Hebraic perspective coupled with Roman rule......
The physical description of Gehenna (Sodom & Gomorrah) is literal, but a connotation of a spiritual reality. The analogy was to use a physical place to illustrate the destruction of the spirit.
Satan's demise; "I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth" (Ezekiel 28:18)
Smoke figuratively represents permanent destruction; "But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish—like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20).
"It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever" (Isaiah 34:10)
Exactly, so where did the literal place Hell (combined from 4 different things) somewhere else with fire that God never created come from..... 15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. - Matthew 23:15 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew23:15&version=NIV
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Post by Dan on Feb 4, 2021 4:56:32 GMT -5
The physical description of Gehenna (Sodom & Gomorrah) is literal, but a connotation of a spiritual reality. The analogy was to use a physical place to illustrate the destruction of the spirit.
Satan's demise; "I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth" (Ezekiel 28:18)
Smoke figuratively represents permanent destruction; "But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish—like smoke they vanish away" (Psalm 37:20).
"It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever" (Isaiah 34:10)
Exactly, so where did the literal place Hell (combined from 4 different things) somewhere else with fire that God never created come from..... 15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. - Matthew 23:15 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew23:15&version=NIV
Imo, "child of hell" is not a description of a literal place, but the destination of a lost soul. Hades (hell) is just the other side of Paradise, Jesus was telling them that they weren't leading others to salvation, but to a lost eternity. When all is lost, when all hope is gone, that's hell.. It why Jonah described being in the belly of the fish as hell. jmo
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Post by chuck on Feb 4, 2021 5:13:39 GMT -5
Exactly, so where did the literal place Hell (combined from 4 different things) somewhere else with fire that God never created come from..... 15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. - Matthew 23:15 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew23:15&version=NIV
Imo, "child of hell" is not a description of a literal place, but the destination of a lost soul. Hades (hell) is just the other side of Paradise, Jesus was telling them that they weren't leading others to salvation, but to a lost eternity. When all is lost, when all hope is gone, that's hell.. It why Jonah described being in the belly of the fish as hell. jmo
Present reality. With future implications. To insist the future implications are some place else after you die with lots of fire is grossly ignorant of a whole multitude of things that I have only scratched the surface on. There are definite future implications here to living a life of Chaos. This does not mean there isn't some type of hell after you die however the scriptures do not indicate its a thing like religion has invented that's as real as your hand in front of your face. In reality we do not know. The only thing we do know is if your in Hell here, your sure as eggs going to be in hell there...... And grooming or conditioning people to think exclusively with a selfish goal of living for ever and ever and ever, is Hell....particularly infants and young children.
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Post by Dan on Feb 4, 2021 5:41:16 GMT -5
Imo, "child of hell" is not a description of a literal place, but the destination of a lost soul. Hades (hell) is just the other side of Paradise, Jesus was telling them that they weren't leading others to salvation, but to a lost eternity. When all is lost, when all hope is gone, that's hell.. It why Jonah described being in the belly of the fish as hell. jmo
Present reality. With future implications. To insist the future implications are some place else after you die with lots of fire is grossly ignorant of a whole multitude of things that I have only scratched the surface on. There are definite future implications here to living a life of Chaos. This does not mean there isn't some type of hell after you die however the scriptures do not indicate its a thing like religion has invented that's as real as your hand in front of your face. In reality we do not know. The only thing we do know is if your in Hell here, your sure as eggs going to be in hell there...... And grooming or conditioning people to think exclusively with a selfish goal of living for ever and ever and ever, is Hell....particularly infants and young children.
"Present reality. With future implications" is kind of how I look at it. I agree that hell is confused with the Lake of Fire. When a person dies, their spirit either ascends to Paradise to await rewards or descends to Hades/hell to await judgement. Its nothing more complicated then that.
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Post by nathan on Feb 4, 2021 10:33:59 GMT -5
Nathan, Chuck is from Down Under, i.e. Oz. That's okay, coz I like Oz. Remember too, he's one of us (he eats rice!). What I'm leading up to saying is that Wallington has rightly cited Luke 16 for support. A pretty graphic description it is too, though perhaps too concise for the sceptic? There are many other passages which point to hell, or at least infer it strongly. Once he's had a beer or two, Chuck will be okay.....'Yeah Mate. If you've been to the Outback in the 40s, ya been ta hell.' It takes time, sometimes a bit of time. ** Well, buddy you tried your best to enlighten him about hell/Hades, the lake of fire and heaven/paradise but to no avail. He read too many JW website anti-hell information and it mess up his mind. He believes he is in hell right now! For many unbelievers people this life is beginning of hell and it will continue after death and it will get worse AFTER the Judgment day.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2021 10:53:26 GMT -5
read Luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it it was written long before the RCC was ever a thought in anyones mind... Exactly, Just like your broken record, it was not a thing...... luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting read it and weep....good try athiest
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Post by openingact34 on Feb 4, 2021 12:14:52 GMT -5
Exactly, Just like your broken record, it was not a thing...... luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting read it and weep....good try athiest Dan and Chuck are stuck in the Old Testament where God was just a raging, genocidal thug. In the New Testament he devolves into a totally deranged eternal torture monster. They don't like to think about that.
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Post by nathan on Feb 4, 2021 12:58:29 GMT -5
luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting read it and weep....good try athiest Dan and Chuck are stuck in the Old Testament where God was just a raging, genocidal thug. In the New Testament he devolves into a totally deranged eternal torture monster. They don't like to think about that. *** God of the Old Test and New Test. are the same: God the Father; Christ/God who incarnate Jesus to pay and die for the sins of mankind; and the Holy Spirit. In the old Test God talks about hell/Hades but in the New Test. God/Christ Jesus revealed the LOCATION of Hades is below the inner earth and heaven/Venus is above the earth. Gehenna/Lake of fire for eternity is some place ONLY God knows.
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Post by openingact34 on Feb 4, 2021 13:08:39 GMT -5
Dan and Chuck are stuck in the Old Testament where God was just a raging, genocidal thug. In the New Testament he devolves into a totally deranged eternal torture monster. They don't like to think about that. *** God of the Old Test and New Test. are the same: God the Father; Christ/God who incarnate Jesus to pay and die for the sins of mankind; and the Holy Spirit. In the old Test God talks about hell/Hades but in the New Test. God/Christ Jesus revealed the LOCATION of Hades is below the inner earth and heaven/Venus is above the earth. Gehenna/Lake of fire for eternity is some place ONLY God knows. I agree same God, just becoming progressively more evil and mentally ill. Similar to how serial killers start off abusing and killing animals, then start preying on people with ever increasing brutality
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Post by nathan on Feb 4, 2021 14:24:45 GMT -5
*** God of the Old Test and New Test. are the same: God the Father; Christ/God who incarnate Jesus to pay and die for the sins of mankind; and the Holy Spirit. In the old Test God talks about hell/Hades but in the New Test. God/Christ Jesus revealed the LOCATION of Hades is below the inner earth and heaven/Venus is above the earth. Gehenna/Lake of fire for eternity is some place ONLY God knows. I agree same God, just becoming progressively more evil and mentally ill. Similar to how serial killers start off abusing and killing animals, then start preying on people with ever increasing brutality ** You don't understand the Old Test. Events and situation the things God and Christ had to deal with to SAVE the souls of mankind from Satan prison in Hades, the fallen angels and their EVIL children on earth tried to prevent and STOP the Christ/God being born into the world as Savior of mankind.
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Post by chuck on Feb 4, 2021 16:10:44 GMT -5
luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting read it and weep....good try athiest Dan and Chuck are stuck in the Old Testament where God was just a raging, genocidal thug. In the New Testament he devolves into a totally deranged eternal torture monster. They don't like to think about that. Or alternatively you are stuck at literal words with Western meaning.
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Post by openingact34 on Feb 4, 2021 22:30:45 GMT -5
Dan and Chuck are stuck in the Old Testament where God was just a raging, genocidal thug. In the New Testament he devolves into a totally deranged eternal torture monster. They don't like to think about that. Or alternatively you are stuck at literal words with Western meaning. The same way that 2000 years of Christians communing with the living God have been "stuck" with the same consistent interpretation?
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Post by chuck on Feb 5, 2021 2:56:22 GMT -5
Or alternatively you are stuck at literal words with Western meaning. The same way that 2000 years of Christians communing with the living God have been "stuck" with the same consistent interpretation? Is it so hard to believe that the confusion could have started with the Greek. Or is it easier to just argue that's how it's always been so that's how it must have been.... you have already said you can't read it any other way because that's how the tradition of Western Christianity has always seen it. I say you can read it another way, from the Hebraic perspective. Why would you read literature written from a Hebraic perspective with a western mindset?. It makes it a static record. Confuses genre. Ignores thr historical arc. I may not be right about everything I say, but looking at it from outside the "traditional" western mindset makes it make a lot more sense with no unicorns needed. Insisting I must look at it the way you or I were bible bashed from a somewhat traditional Christianity point of view is silly. You can even see examples of people straying from a certain path in the very day, so it's hardly outrageous to suggest we have got it wrong for 2000 years.
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Post by openingact34 on Feb 7, 2021 11:47:37 GMT -5
The same way that 2000 years of Christians communing with the living God have been "stuck" with the same consistent interpretation? Is it so hard to believe that the confusion could have started with the Greek. Or is it easier to just argue that's how it's always been so that's how it must have been.... you have already said you can't read it any other way because that's how the tradition of Western Christianity has always seen it. I say you can read it another way, from the Hebraic perspective. Why would you read literature written from a Hebraic perspective with a western mindset?. It makes it a static record. Confuses genre. Ignores thr historical arc. I may not be right about everything I say, but looking at it from outside the "traditional" western mindset makes it make a lot more sense with no unicorns needed. Insisting I must look at it the way you or I were bible bashed from a somewhat traditional Christianity point of view is silly. You can even see examples of people straying from a certain path in the very day, so it's hardly outrageous to suggest we have got it wrong for 2000 years. The gospel is preached to every creature, not just academics who understand an ancient Hebraic perspective. The creator of the universe should have been able to foresee the need for a universal message for all time - hence the threat of "believe or burn". I think this sign says it all:
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Post by nathan on Feb 7, 2021 14:49:42 GMT -5
Is it so hard to believe that the confusion could have started with the Greek. Or is it easier to just argue that's how it's always been so that's how it must have been.... you have already said you can't read it any other way because that's how the tradition of Western Christianity has always seen it. I say you can read it another way, from the Hebraic perspective. Why would you read literature written from a Hebraic perspective with a western mindset?. It makes it a static record. Confuses genre. Ignores thr historical arc. I may not be right about everything I say, but looking at it from outside the "traditional" western mindset makes it make a lot more sense with no unicorns needed. Insisting I must look at it the way you or I were bible bashed from a somewhat traditional Christianity point of view is silly. You can even see examples of people straying from a certain path in the very day, so it's hardly outrageous to suggest we have got it wrong for 2000 years. The gospel is preached to every creature, not just academics who understand an ancient Hebraic perspective. The creator of the universe should have been able to foresee the need for a universal message for all time - hence the threat of "believe or burn". I think this sign says it all: ** In the garden of Eden God gave Adam, Eve and their children Immortality, the Serpent/Satan deceived them that God is NOT fair and good. Therefore, God gave them a choice to eat the TREE of life, which was to continue to be on Christ side and live forever with God and Christ or to be with Satan/Serpent here on earth having the knowledge of going and evil which ONLY bring forth 1st death/in Hades and 2nd death is to be cast in the lake of fire forever. Adam and Eve choose to have the fruits of having the knowledge of good and evil brought natural and Spiritual deaths in their lives and the lives of their mortal humans children also. Christ/God offered them a way out of the 2nd death and that was He would come down from heaven/Venus to live as a man Jesus to die the 1st death on Calvary to pay the ransome price for the sins of humanity. Those who believe in Christ gift of eternal life will escaped the Second death/the souls be cast in the Lake of fire for eternity. The bad list which openingact34 posted is the fruits from the tree of having the knowldge of good and evil ONLY Bring DEATHS and NOT eternal life.
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Post by chuck on Feb 8, 2021 20:43:46 GMT -5
Is it so hard to believe that the confusion could have started with the Greek. Or is it easier to just argue that's how it's always been so that's how it must have been.... you have already said you can't read it any other way because that's how the tradition of Western Christianity has always seen it. I say you can read it another way, from the Hebraic perspective. Why would you read literature written from a Hebraic perspective with a western mindset?. It makes it a static record. Confuses genre. Ignores thr historical arc. I may not be right about everything I say, but looking at it from outside the "traditional" western mindset makes it make a lot more sense with no unicorns needed. Insisting I must look at it the way you or I were bible bashed from a somewhat traditional Christianity point of view is silly. You can even see examples of people straying from a certain path in the very day, so it's hardly outrageous to suggest we have got it wrong for 2000 years. The gospel is preached to every creature, not just academics who understand an ancient Hebraic perspective. The creator of the universe should have been able to foresee the need for a universal message for all time - hence the threat of "believe or burn". I think this sign says it all: You mean those who begin to grasp the Hebraic perspective understand the gospel. See your stuck on the literalness of the text. Do you know where the Gospel idea come from?. And just what do you have in mind when you say creator? sounds like Zeus....
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 8, 2021 21:08:45 GMT -5
Chuck, - perhaps you are the one stuck in the past trying to explain something that I understood a long time ago.
What I realized is that the Old testament as well as the New testament are accounts of people who were just trying to understand why certain things happened.
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Post by chuck on Feb 8, 2021 21:45:20 GMT -5
Chuck, - perhaps you are the one stuck in the past trying to explain something that I understood a long time ago.
What I realized is that the Old testament as well as the New testament are accounts of people who were just trying to understand why certain things happened. Or maybe they were explaining why they happened. Im not so sure I'm stuck in the past when we are still repeating said history....a lot of original thought come from these people. Suggesting the were trying to understand why things happened ignores the explanation on why things happened in the narrative of scripture.
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Post by BobWilliston on Feb 8, 2021 23:49:54 GMT -5
Chuck, - perhaps you are the one stuck in the past trying to explain something that I understood a long time ago.
What I realized is that the Old testament as well as the New testament are accounts of people who were just trying to understand why certain things happened. Or maybe they were explaining why they happened. Im not so sure I'm stuck in the past when we are still repeating said history....a lot of original thought come from these people. Suggesting the were trying to understand why things happened ignores the explanation on why things happened in the narrative of scripture. And the rest of us are trying to understand why we are trying to understand what they all were trying to understand, so lots of money can be made and influence can be fostered.
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Post by dmmichgood on Feb 9, 2021 1:39:26 GMT -5
Chuck, - perhaps you are the one stuck in the past trying to explain something that I understood a long time ago.
What I realized is that the Old testament as well as the New testament are accounts of people who were just trying to understand why certain things happened. Or maybe they were explaining why they happened. I'm not so sure I'm stuck in the past when we are still repeating said history....a lot of original thought come from these people. Suggesting the were trying to understand why things happened ignores the explanation on why things happened in the narrative of scripture. However, they couldn't accurately explain why certain things happened!
Just like everyone else in all other cultures around the world who didn't know what caused certain incidents to occur but they tried best of their ability to figure it out.
BUT the best of their ability was lacking in knowledge Due to no fault of their own they simply didn't know because of their distance from other areas of the world!
Example:
The Santorini volcano eruption might have afforded "cloud cover by day and would have become visible like fire in the night" that they interpreted as God leading them!
That is but one small example!
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Post by chuck on Feb 12, 2021 11:09:57 GMT -5
Or maybe they were explaining why they happened. I'm not so sure I'm stuck in the past when we are still repeating said history....a lot of original thought come from these people. Suggesting the were trying to understand why things happened ignores the explanation on why things happened in the narrative of scripture. However, they couldn't accurately explain why certain things happened!
Just like everyone else in all other cultures around the world who didn't know what caused certain incidents to occur but they tried best of their ability to figure it out.
BUT the best of their ability was lacking in knowledge Due to no fault of their own they simply didn't know because of their distance from other areas of the world!
Example:
The Santorini volcano eruption might have afforded "cloud cover by day and would have become visible like fire in the night" that they interpreted as God leading them!
That is but one small example!
I dont disagree, but that's not my point. You are showcasing my point by getting hung up on the literalness of the text and how certain things were not literally possible because we know more today than they did. Understanding the Hebraic perspective show that the literalness of the translation was never the point, its just a vehicle to carry the message, throw in a westerners mind with Greek then English translations with political motivations the Hebraic perspective has all but been lost. Many of the original thoughts to the best way of life today come from these people and has help shape our society today. Sadly it has been mistaken for a magic book on how to live forever someday somewhere else and not a guide that leads you to the best outcomes in life given any circumstance today here on earth. When you find that way of life, that is "Eternal life". You are in Heaven. No magic required. What happens after death is beyond me.
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