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Post by chuck on Jan 1, 2021 6:33:06 GMT -5
Since I have been accused of straying from sound doctrine It would be a good thing to look at this sound doctrine in a bit of detail. medium.com/@brazenchurch/how-when-the-idea-of-eternal-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815One bit that was quite fitting to those who love the idea of Hell and looking down into it. The first person to write about “eternal hell” was the Latin (West) North African Tertullian (160–220 A.D.), who is considered the Father of the Latin Church. As most people reason, hell is a place for people you don’t like! Tertullian fantasized that not only the wicked would be in hell but also every philosopher and theologian who ever argued with him! He envisioned a time when he would look down from heaven at those people in hell and laugh with glee!
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Post by chuck on Jan 1, 2021 6:55:24 GMT -5
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Post by Gene on Jan 1, 2021 9:49:47 GMT -5
"Whose" Doctrine.
Unless you are expounding on the Doctrine of a certain Dr. Seuss character.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 10:37:08 GMT -5
Since I have been accused of straying from sound doctrine It would be a good thing to look at this sound doctrine in a bit of detail. medium.com/@brazenchurch/how-when-the-idea-of-eternal-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815One bit that was quite fitting to those who love the idea of Hell and looking down into it. The first person to write about “eternal hell” was the Latin (West) North African Tertullian (160–220 A.D.), who is considered the Father of the Latin Church. As most people reason, hell is a place for people you don’t like! Tertullian fantasized that not only the wicked would be in hell but also every philosopher and theologian who ever argued with him! He envisioned a time when he would look down from heaven at those people in hell and laugh with glee! sorry hell and its concept is all over the OT and the NT long before Tertullian mentioned it or was a twinkle in his fathers eyes, but its good for everyone to see where your getting your corrupt view of the bible and Good Sound Christian Doctrine from. hopefully no one falls for it. God is watching..
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Post by nathan on Jan 1, 2021 11:02:42 GMT -5
Since I have been accused of straying from sound doctrine It would be a good thing to look at this sound doctrine in a bit of detail. medium.com/@brazenchurch/how-when-the-idea-of-eternal-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815One bit that was quite fitting to those who love the idea of Hell and looking down into it. The first person to write about “eternal hell” was the Latin (West) North African Tertullian (160–220 A.D.), who is considered the Father of the Latin Church. As most people reason, hell is a place for people you don’t like! Tertullian fantasized that not only the wicked would be in hell but also every philosopher and theologian who ever argued with him! He envisioned a time when he would look down from heaven at those people in hell and laugh with glee! sorry hell and its concept is all over the OT and the NT long before Tertullian mentioned it or was a twinkle in his fathers eyes, but its good for everyone to see where your getting your corrupt view of the bible and Good Sound Christian Doctrine from. hopefully no one falls for it. God is watching.. Amen, Wally.... King David talked about hell/hades and the body resurrection in Ps. 16: 7-10 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons. 8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Peter spoke about death, hell and resurrection of Jesus In Acts 2:25-27 For David speaketh concerning him/Jesus, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Jesus spoke about hell/hades and paradise in Luke 16. and his own body resurrection, "Destroy this temple/His body then I will raise up in the 3rd day.
Tertullian just repeat what in the Bible and the teachings of Jesus about Hell/hades, heaven, and the Lake of fire/Second death in Rev. 19:20-21; 20:9-15.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 11:14:57 GMT -5
sorry hell and its concept is all over the OT and the NT long before Tertullian mentioned it or was a twinkle in his fathers eyes, but its good for everyone to see where your getting your corrupt view of the bible and Good Sound Christian Doctrine from. hopefully no one falls for it. God is watching.. Amen, Wally.... King David talked about hell/hades and the body resurrection in Ps. 16: 7-10 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons. 8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Peter spoke about death, hell and resurrection of Jesus In Acts 2:25-27 For David speaketh concerning him/Jesus, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Jesus spoke about hell/hades and paradise in Luke 16. and his own body resurrection, "Destroy this temple/His body then I will raise up in the 3rd day.
Tertullian just repeat what in the Bible and the teachings of Jesus about Hell/hades, heaven, and the Lake of fire/Second death in Rev. 19:20-21; 20:9-15. nothing suggests eternal torture in what you posted. It's a figment of the imaginations of people who wish it to be so. Probably because they hate, rather than love, others, and need a place for everyone to be tortured to fulfill some sadistic fantasy.
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Post by openingact34 on Jan 1, 2021 11:29:21 GMT -5
Since I have been accused of straying from sound doctrine It would be a good thing to look at this sound doctrine in a bit of detail. medium.com/@brazenchurch/how-when-the-idea-of-eternal-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815One bit that was quite fitting to those who love the idea of Hell and looking down into it. The first person to write about “eternal hell” was the Latin (West) North African Tertullian (160–220 A.D.), who is considered the Father of the Latin Church. As most people reason, hell is a place for people you don’t like! Tertullian fantasized that not only the wicked would be in hell but also every philosopher and theologian who ever argued with him! He envisioned a time when he would look down from heaven at those people in hell and laugh with glee! That is a rather pathetic article. It reads a lot like a 12 year old who consults an encyclopedia blurb and then decides they have enough material to write a "research paper". Notice that the author uses as her "expert" a retired psychology professor from Houston Community College. Apparently it was too much bother to find a qualified professor of history or religious studies at an university. Blaming Tertullian for Hell is quite laughable. He was born around 160 AD. The Apocalypse of Peter, which describes Hell in great detail dates from 100-150 AD. So clearly this doctrine was in wide circulation among early Christians, and with good reason! It is what Jesus taught! 21 And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment, and they that were punished and the angels that punished them had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. 22 And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming and tormenting them. 23 And there was a great lake full of flaming mire, wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels, tormentors, were set over them. 24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery. And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place. 25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement. 26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion. 27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up. 28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness. 29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses. 30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God. 31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury. 32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman. 33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment.... 34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God. Hell is central to Christian doctrine. You don't see street preachers holding up signs talking about love do you? Of course not. God is directing them to threaten people with eternal torture. Similarly, what do the workers preach when they are trying to get people to profess? A bunch of loving nonsense? Of course not. They try to scare and intimidate people with an eternity of unending tormet.
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Post by nathan on Jan 1, 2021 11:30:02 GMT -5
Amen, Wally.... King David talked about hell/hades and the body resurrection in Ps. 16: 7-10 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons. 8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved. 9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. 10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Peter spoke about death, hell and resurrection of Jesus In Acts 2:25-27 For David speaketh concerning him/Jesus, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Jesus spoke about hell/hades and paradise in Luke 16. and his own body resurrection, "Destroy this temple/His body then I will raise up in the 3rd day.
Tertullian just repeat what in the Bible and the teachings of Jesus about Hell/hades, heaven, and the Lake of fire/Second death in Rev. 19:20-21; 20:9-15. nothing suggests eternal torture in what you posted. It's a figment of the imaginations of people who wish it to be so. Probably because they hate, rather than love, others, and need a place for everyone to be tortured to fulfill some sadistic fantasy. I will let the scriptures/Bible speak for itself.... Rev. 19: 19-20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Rev. 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Post by nathan on Jan 1, 2021 11:39:28 GMT -5
Since I have been accused of straying from sound doctrine It would be a good thing to look at this sound doctrine in a bit of detail. medium.com/@brazenchurch/how-when-the-idea-of-eternal-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815One bit that was quite fitting to those who love the idea of Hell and looking down into it. The first person to write about “eternal hell” was the Latin (West) North African Tertullian (160–220 A.D.), who is considered the Father of the Latin Church. As most people reason, hell is a place for people you don’t like! Tertullian fantasized that not only the wicked would be in hell but also every philosopher and theologian who ever argued with him! He envisioned a time when he would look down from heaven at those people in hell and laugh with glee! That is a rather pathetic article. It reads a lot like a 12 year old who consults an encyclopedia blurb and then decides they have enough material to write a "research paper". Notice that the author uses as her "expert" a retired psychology professor from Houston Community College. Apparently it was too much bother to find a qualified professor of history or religious studies at an university. Blaming Tertullian for Hell is quite laughable. He was born around 160 AD. The Apocalypse of Peter, which describes Hell in great detail dates from 100-150 AD. So clearly this doctrine was in wide circulation among early Christians, and with good reason! It is what Jesus taught! 21 And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment, and they that were punished and the angels that punished them had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. 22 And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming and tormenting them. 23 And there was a great lake full of flaming mire, wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels, tormentors, were set over them. 24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery. And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place. 25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement. 26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion. 27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up. 28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness. 29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses. 30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God. 31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury. 32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman. 33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment.... 34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God. Hell is central to Christian doctrine. You don't see street preachers holding up signs talking about love do you? Of course not. God is directing them to threaten people with eternal torture. Similarly, what do the workers preach when they are trying to get people to profess? A bunch of loving nonsense? Of course not. They try to scare and intimidate people with an eternity of unending torment. First of all, The workers, the friends and most of the preachers, believers preach about the LOVE God the Father and of Christ. Christ/Jesus came down from heaven to earth to SAVE mankind from Hades and the Lake of fire. God and Christ have prepared a NEW earth and heaven for them after death.
Then if they don't listen or believe then the messengers would tell them where their souls will go after death Hades inside the inner earth then they must face the Lake of fire/second death AFTER the day of Judgment. God the Father and Christ want to give the sinner humans the whole picture of our predicament and Salvation or a way out of the MESS, Adam and Eve had created in the Garden of Eden.
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Post by chuck on Jan 1, 2021 17:53:56 GMT -5
Since I have been accused of straying from sound doctrine It would be a good thing to look at this sound doctrine in a bit of detail. medium.com/@brazenchurch/how-when-the-idea-of-eternal-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815One bit that was quite fitting to those who love the idea of Hell and looking down into it. The first person to write about “eternal hell” was the Latin (West) North African Tertullian (160–220 A.D.), who is considered the Father of the Latin Church. As most people reason, hell is a place for people you don’t like! Tertullian fantasized that not only the wicked would be in hell but also every philosopher and theologian who ever argued with him! He envisioned a time when he would look down from heaven at those people in hell and laugh with glee! sorry hell and its concept is all over the OT and the NT long before Tertullian mentioned it or was a twinkle in his fathers eyes, but its good for everyone to see where your getting your corrupt view of the bible and Good Sound Christian Doctrine from. hopefully no one falls for it. God is watching.. No "hell" is not all over the old testement. Sheol or grave is all over the old testement.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 18:32:54 GMT -5
sorry hell and its concept is all over the OT and the NT long before Tertullian mentioned it or was a twinkle in his fathers eyes, but its good for everyone to see where your getting your corrupt view of the bible and Good Sound Christian Doctrine from. hopefully no one falls for it. God is watching.. No "hell" is not all over the old testement. Sheol or grave is all over the old testement. sorry wrong again. one source i read says "hell" is originally jewish. and one should note Christ settled the matter as to what "hell/sheol/hades/grave/gehenna or whatever label you want to hide it behind" really was in his description of it in luke 16. again the hebrews track record in the OT and the NT show a serious lack of understanding of their own scriptures in beliefs and practices... you do realize they largely rejected the promised messiah when he arrived who is foretold of in the OT? when you speak on here with your corrupt view of the bible you do realize that God is watching right?
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Post by chuck on Jan 1, 2021 19:33:53 GMT -5
Since I have been accused of straying from sound doctrine It would be a good thing to look at this sound doctrine in a bit of detail. medium.com/@brazenchurch/how-when-the-idea-of-eternal-torment-invaded-church-doctrine-7610e6b70815One bit that was quite fitting to those who love the idea of Hell and looking down into it. The first person to write about “eternal hell” was the Latin (West) North African Tertullian (160–220 A.D.), who is considered the Father of the Latin Church. As most people reason, hell is a place for people you don’t like! Tertullian fantasized that not only the wicked would be in hell but also every philosopher and theologian who ever argued with him! He envisioned a time when he would look down from heaven at those people in hell and laugh with glee! That is a rather pathetic article. It reads a lot like a 12 year old who consults an encyclopedia blurb and then decides they have enough material to write a "research paper". Notice that the author uses as her "expert" a retired psychology professor from Houston Community College. Apparently it was too much bother to find a qualified professor of history or religious studies at an university. Blaming Tertullian for Hell is quite laughable. He was born around 160 AD. The Apocalypse of Peter, which describes Hell in great detail dates from 100-150 AD. So clearly this doctrine was in wide circulation among early Christians, and with good reason! It is what Jesus taught! 21 And I saw also another place over against that one, very squalid; and it was a place of punishment, and they that were punished and the angels that punished them had their raiment dark, according to the air of the place. 22 And some there were there hanging by their tongues; and these were they that blasphemed the way of righteousness, and under them was laid fire flaming and tormenting them. 23 And there was a great lake full of flaming mire, wherein were certain men that turned away from righteousness; and angels, tormentors, were set over them. 24 And there were also others, women, hanged by their hair above that mire which boiled up; and these were they that adorned themselves for adultery. And the men that were joined with them in the defilement of adultery were hanging by their feet, and had their heads hidden in the mire, and said: We believed not that we should come unto this place. 25 And I saw the murderers and them that were consenting to them cast into a strait place full of evil, creeping things, and smitten by those beasts, and so turning themselves about in that torment. And upon them were set worms like clouds of darkness. And the souls of them that were murdered stood and looked upon the torment of those murderers and said: O God, righteous is thy judgement. 26 And hard by that place I saw another strait place wherein the discharge and the stench of them that were in torment ran down, and there was as it were a lake there. And there sat women up to their necks in that liquor, and over against them many children which were born out of due time sat crying: and from them went forth rays of fire and smote the women in the eyes: and these were they that conceived out of wedlock (?) and caused abortion. 27 And other men and women were being burned up to their middle and cast down in a dark place and scourged by evil spirits, and having their entrails devoured by worms that rested not. And these were they that had persecuted the righteous and delivered them up. 28 And near to them again were women and men gnawing their lips and in torment, and having iron heated in the fire set against their eyes. And these were they that did blaspheme and speak evil of the way of righteousness. 29 And over against these were yet others, men and women, gnawing their tongues and having flaming fire in their mouths. And these were the false witnesses. 30 And in another place were gravel-stones sharper than swords or any spit, heated with fire, and men and women clad in filthy rags rolled upon them in torment. And these were they that were rich and trusted in their riches, and had no pity upon orphans and widows but neglected the commandments of God. 31 And in another great lake full of foul matter (pus) and blood and boiling mire stood men and women up to their knees And these were they that lent money and demanded usury upon usury. 32 And other men and women being cast down from a great rock (precipice) fell (came) to the bottom, and again were driven by them that were set over them, to go up upon the rock, and thence were cast down to the bottom and had no rest from this torment. And these were they that did defile their bodies behaving as women: and the women that were with them were they that lay with one another as a man with a woman. 33 And beside that rock was a place full of much fire, and there stood men which with their own hands had made images for themselves instead of God, [And beside them other men and women] having rods of fire and smiting one another and never resting from this manner of torment.... 34 And yet others near unto them, men and women, burning and turning themselves about and roasted as in a pan. And these were they that forsook the way of God. Hell is central to Christian doctrine. You don't see street preachers holding up signs talking about love do you? Of course not. God is directing them to threaten people with eternal torture. Similarly, what do the workers preach when they are trying to get people to profess? A bunch of loving nonsense? Of course not. They try to scare and intimidate people with an eternity of unending tormet. Good to see you actually argue the language case they made. And then you use apocalyptic literature which you obviously do not understand what it was written for. I have not researched the Apocalypse of Peter, but I have of Revelation and if you get your head around the Reign of Nero and Domitian Revelation makes perfect sense. So my question would be to you, what is Peter describing, I assume you've looked?. youtu.be/L0-tFahPVIUyoutu.be/sE2oaGa2fJUIm all for personal opinion, but if your going to have one at least show some reasoning why you think the language does show eternal torture and why the author was wrong and why you think the Apocalypse of Peter supports your view on the Authors mistaken understanding of the language. The 12yr old jibe was lame in this light.
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Post by chuck on Jan 1, 2021 19:40:35 GMT -5
No "hell" is not all over the old testement. Sheol or grave is all over the old testement. sorry wrong again. one source i read says "hell" is originally jewish. and one should note Christ settled the matter as to what "hell/sheol/hades/grave/gehenna or whatever label you want to hide it behind" really was in his description of it in luke 16. again the hebrews track record in the OT and the NT show a serious lack of understanding of their own scriptures in beliefs and practices... you do realize they largely rejected the promised messiah when he arrived who is foretold of in the OT? when you speak on here with your corrupt view of the bible you do realize that God is watching right? "what ever label you want to be hide it behind" You mean they are hiding the real meanings behind the label Hell. "Hell" came after the real meanings wally not before. That is not a arguable point. Sure many reject him, they were seeking signs, just like you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 19:49:22 GMT -5
sorry wrong again. one source i read says "hell" is originally jewish. and one should note Christ settled the matter as to what "hell/sheol/hades/grave/gehenna or whatever label you want to hide it behind" really was in his description of it in luke 16. again the hebrews track record in the OT and the NT show a serious lack of understanding of their own scriptures in beliefs and practices... you do realize they largely rejected the promised messiah when he arrived who is foretold of in the OT? when you speak on here with your corrupt view of the bible you do realize that God is watching right? "what ever label you want to be hide it behind" You mean they are hiding the real meanings behind the label Hell. "Hell" came after the real meanings wally not before. That is not a arguable point. Sure many reject him, they were seeking signs, just like you. Christ would disagree with you, not a good idea to argue with him, it won't end well if you do.. ummm what signs? Christ already arrived and presented the signs no more are required...you are just babbling now for the sake of babble... God is watching...
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Post by chuck on Jan 1, 2021 20:01:13 GMT -5
"what ever label you want to be hide it behind" You mean they are hiding the real meanings behind the label Hell. "Hell" came after the real meanings wally not before. That is not a arguable point. Sure many reject him, they were seeking signs, just like you. Christ would disagree with you, not a good idea to argue with him, it won't end well if you do.. ummm what signs? Christ already arrived and presented the signs no more are required...you are just babbling now for the sake of babble... God is watching... Christ had no knowledge of Hell. He knew, Gehenna,Hades, Tartarus Sheol. And they definitely did not mean all the same thing. And they predominantly were present reality, the Grave or the Town rubbish dump with a gruesome history, Hades and Tartarus are greek mythology. So how do you conclude they all mean fire with eternal torment some place else after you die.....
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 1, 2021 20:06:33 GMT -5
No "hell" is not all over the old testement. Sheol or grave is all over the old testement. sorry wrong again. one source i read says "hell" is originally jewish. and one should note Christ settled the matter as to what "hell/sheol/hades/grave/gehenna or whatever label you want to hide it behind" really was in his description of it in luke 16. again the hebrews track record in the OT and the NT show a serious lack of understanding of their own scriptures in beliefs and practices... you do realize they largely rejected the promised messiah when he arrived who is foretold of in the OT? when you speak on here with your corrupt view of the bible you do realize that God is watching right? I hope you give the same advice to nathan with his "corrupt view of of the bible" (JC lives in Venus) and remind him God is watching and sees his lies, @wally!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 20:07:26 GMT -5
Christ would disagree with you, not a good idea to argue with him, it won't end well if you do.. ummm what signs? Christ already arrived and presented the signs no more are required...you are just babbling now for the sake of babble... God is watching... Christ had no knowledge of Hell. He knew, Gehenna,Hades, Tartarus Sheol. And they definitely did not mean all the same thing. And they predominantly were present reality, the Grave or the Town rubbish dump with a gruesome history, Hades and Tartarus are greek mythology. So how do you conclude they all mean fire with eternal torment some place else after you die..... you are really gonna tell me Christ who helped create everything had no clue what hell was? because i get my conclusion when Christ described it in luke 16...you might try reading it...babble on...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 20:09:47 GMT -5
sorry wrong again. one source i read says "hell" is originally jewish. and one should note Christ settled the matter as to what "hell/sheol/hades/grave/gehenna or whatever label you want to hide it behind" really was in his description of it in luke 16. again the hebrews track record in the OT and the NT show a serious lack of understanding of their own scriptures in beliefs and practices... you do realize they largely rejected the promised messiah when he arrived who is foretold of in the OT? when you speak on here with your corrupt view of the bible you do realize that God is watching right? I hope you give the same advice to nathan with his "corrupt view of of the bible" (JC lives in Venus) and remind him God is watching and sees his lies, @wally ! your memory problems are surfacing again he knows quite well what i think of the alien theory...
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Post by Roselyn T on Jan 1, 2021 20:17:44 GMT -5
I hope you give the same advice to nathan with his "corrupt view of of the bible" (JC lives in Venus) and remind him God is watching and sees his lies, @wally ! your memory problems are surfacing again he knows quite well what i think of the aliens theory... So why aren't you calling him out on it like you are with chuck, @wally ? I understand it would be a "full time" job with the amount of BS he posts over and over again !
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Post by chuck on Jan 1, 2021 20:36:36 GMT -5
Christ had no knowledge of Hell. He knew, Gehenna,Hades, Tartarus Sheol. And they definitely did not mean all the same thing. And they predominantly were present reality, the Grave or the Town rubbish dump with a gruesome history, Hades and Tartarus are greek mythology. So how do you conclude they all mean fire with eternal torment some place else after you die..... you are really gonna tell me Christ who helped create everything had no clue what hell was? because i get my conclusion when Christ described it in luke 16...you might try reading it...babble on... Wally I will say it again. Christ the man, a jewish rabbai knew, Sheol the grave, Tartarus angel prison, Hades underworld abode of the dead and Gehenna the town rubbish dump with a history of child sacrifice. 2 are present tense, 2 are greek mythology. Christ predominantly used present reality Gehenna to describe the condition of your life if you acted like a jerk basically. Hell was not a thing. Hell come along much later. Hell is 4 entirely different things bundled into one meaning used to fool people with fear. They made it up! In the case of luke 16 you have a few problems. The biggest being how does someone being tortured in fire in your Hell have a conversation with and still want someone in your Heaven to serve them?. Seems like its almost in the same room..... And the whole point being someone with excess continously overlooking someone in need, that dang humanism has just popped up again, surely he must not have not performed enough 2x2ism to end up in hell right...... funnily enough zero religious performance insight again!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 20:39:25 GMT -5
nothing suggests eternal torture in what you posted. It's a figment of the imaginations of people who wish it to be so. Probably because they hate, rather than love, others, and need a place for everyone to be tortured to fulfill some sadistic fantasy. I will let the scriptures/Bible speak for itself.... Rev. 19: 19-20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Rev. 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
first - the only "eternal" reference there is in reference to the devil and false prophet. Second, how can "hell" be cast into the "lake of fire"? I'd suggest that there are so many versions of the afterlife which influenced the bible's writers (and editors, the Church), that what you believe about it is entirely up to you! Which makes the insistence that a loving God plans on torturing most of the flawed humans he created (except "us" of course.... it's for the other people....) for ever a remarkable insight into the mind and heart of anyone who believes such a thing.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 20:43:32 GMT -5
you are really gonna tell me Christ who helped create everything had no clue what hell was? because i get my conclusion when Christ described it in luke 16...you might try reading it...babble on... Wally I will say it again. Christ the man, a jewish rabbai knew, Sheol the grave, Tartarus angel prison, Hades underworld abode of the dead and Gehenna the town rubbish dump with a history of child sacrifice. 2 are present tense, 2 are greek mythology. Christ predominantly used present reality Gehenna to describe the condition of your life if you acted like a jerk basically. Hell was not a thing. Hell come along much later. Hell is 4 entirely different things bundled into one meaning used to fool people with fear. They made it up! In the case of luke 16 you have a few problems. The biggest being how does someone being tortured in fire in your Hell have a conversation with and still want someone in your Heaven to serve them?. Seems like its almost in the same room..... And the whole point being someone with excess continously overlooking someone in need, that dang humanism has just popped up again, surely he must not have not performed enough 2x2ism to end up in hell right...... funnily enough zero religious performance insight again! I can only imagine the gleeful righteous triumph arising from watching the agony of your (and God's) enemies as they are forever tortured. Unless of course, you followed the command of the Christ and loved the souls of your enemies. Then I suppose, your life would be a living hell on heaven.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 20:45:32 GMT -5
your memory problems are surfacing again he knows quite well what i think of the aliens theory... So why aren't you calling him out on it like you are with chuck, @wally ? I understand it would be a "full time" job with the amount of BS he posts over and over again ! Indeed... the prospect has deterred some from being moderators.
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Post by chuck on Jan 1, 2021 20:51:05 GMT -5
I will let the scriptures/Bible speak for itself.... Rev. 19: 19-20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. Rev. 20:10-15 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
first - the only "eternal" reference there is in reference to the devil and false prophet. Second, how can "hell" be cast into the "lake of fire"? I'd suggest that there are so many versions of the afterlife which influenced the bible's writers (and editors, the Church), that what you believe about it is entirely up to you! Which makes the insistence that a loving God plans on torturing most of the flawed humans he created (except "us" of course.... it's for the other people....) for ever a remarkable insight into the mind and heart of anyone who believes such a thing. That's a bit like Nathan's delema of Jesus living inside Lucifer.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 20:52:30 GMT -5
you are really gonna tell me Christ who helped create everything had no clue what hell was? because i get my conclusion when Christ described it in luke 16...you might try reading it...babble on... Wally I will say it again. Christ the man, a jewish rabbai knew, Sheol the grave, Tartarus angel prison, Hades underworld abode of the dead and Gehenna the town rubbish dump with a history of child sacrifice. 2 are present tense, 2 are greek mythology. Christ predominantly used present reality Gehenna to describe the condition of your life if you acted like a jerk basically. Hell was not a thing. Hell come along much later. Hell is 4 entirely different things bundled into one meaning used to fool people with fear. They made it up! In the case of luke 16 you have a few problems. The biggest being how does someone being tortured in fire in your Hell have a conversation with and still want someone in your Heaven to serve them?. Seems like its almost in the same room..... And the whole point being someone with excess continously overlooking someone in need, that dang humanism has just popped up again, surely he must not have not performed enough 2x2ism to end up in hell right...... funnily enough zero religious performance insight again! ah the atheistic view of Christ as just a man it won't be long now before you are fully converted. Christ was man and divine to think he didn't know everything about the world and all its trappings is not scriptural or believable. the rich man just showed how evil he was while even in hell that he wanted someone to serve him instead of having any remorse. atheistic humanism didn't come along till WAY later than scripture. as i said before trying to retro-actively applying a modern movement back to 1900+ years ago isn't gonna work for anyone with more than one brain cell. babble on...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 21:00:47 GMT -5
your memory problems are surfacing again he knows quite well what i think of the aliens theory... So why aren't you calling him out on it like you are with chuck , @wally ? I understand it would be a "full time" job with the amount of BS he posts over and over again ! Chuck/Redback and a few others are a greater problem and are actively trying to lure people away from Christ and Christianity no one but shushy believes nathan on his alien theory on this board. its a matter of priorities. and despite your desperate need to have me join you and others in a gang bang i'm not gonna do it.
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Post by chuck on Jan 1, 2021 21:03:05 GMT -5
Wally I will say it again. Christ the man, a jewish rabbai knew, Sheol the grave, Tartarus angel prison, Hades underworld abode of the dead and Gehenna the town rubbish dump with a history of child sacrifice. 2 are present tense, 2 are greek mythology. Christ predominantly used present reality Gehenna to describe the condition of your life if you acted like a jerk basically. Hell was not a thing. Hell come along much later. Hell is 4 entirely different things bundled into one meaning used to fool people with fear. They made it up! In the case of luke 16 you have a few problems. The biggest being how does someone being tortured in fire in your Hell have a conversation with and still want someone in your Heaven to serve them?. Seems like its almost in the same room..... And the whole point being someone with excess continously overlooking someone in need, that dang humanism has just popped up again, surely he must not have not performed enough 2x2ism to end up in hell right...... funnily enough zero religious performance insight again! ah the atheistic view of Christ as just a man it won't be long now before you are fully converted. Christ was man and divine to think he didn't know everything about the world and all its trappings is not scriptural or believable. the rich man just showed how evil he was while even in hell that he wanted someone to serve him instead of having any remorse. atheistic humanism didn't come along till WAY later than scripture. as i said before trying to retro-actively applying a modern movement back to 1900+ years ago isn't gonna work for anyone with more than one brain cell. babble on... I agree Christ was a man and was divine. The trouble is your devine is magic, mine is a nature. Yours you need fairy magic and pixie dust, mine doesn't, yours requires burning people who don't agree with you, mine does not. Yours requires religion, mine does not, yours requires selfishness, mine does not, yours requires other people's consent(worker's), mine does not ect ect ect. Treating people properly has been around for ever, long before 2x2ism. Christ never puts 2x2ism above treating people properly in the context of his time on earth.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2021 21:04:14 GMT -5
Wally I will say it again. Christ the man, a jewish rabbai knew, Sheol the grave, Tartarus angel prison, Hades underworld abode of the dead and Gehenna the town rubbish dump with a history of child sacrifice. 2 are present tense, 2 are greek mythology. Christ predominantly used present reality Gehenna to describe the condition of your life if you acted like a jerk basically. Hell was not a thing. Hell come along much later. Hell is 4 entirely different things bundled into one meaning used to fool people with fear. They made it up! In the case of luke 16 you have a few problems. The biggest being how does someone being tortured in fire in your Hell have a conversation with and still want someone in your Heaven to serve them?. Seems like its almost in the same room..... And the whole point being someone with excess continously overlooking someone in need, that dang humanism has just popped up again, surely he must not have not performed enough 2x2ism to end up in hell right...... funnily enough zero religious performance insight again! I can only imagine the gleeful righteous triumph arising from watching the agony of your (and God's) enemies as they are forever tortured. Unless of course, you followed the command of the Christ and loved the souls of your enemies. Then I suppose, your life would be a living hell on heaven. as its setup now Heaven and Hell you might be able to see hell from heaven. with the new heaven and new earth and the lake of fire it probably wont be the same. for there is the promise that the former things will go away in the new heaven.
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