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Post by Dan on Jan 29, 2021 22:08:06 GMT -5
What I find interesting about this subject: Who's Doctrine..... is that none of you seem to realize that all the time debating ancient beliefs have little if any at all to do with the problems we face today.
Makes one wonder if it is a kind of "escape" mechanism to keep from having to to deal with today's problems.
After all, that takes hard work instead of just debating.
Some just have more faith that their ancient beliefs will inevitably be the solution to all of the problems facing mankind.
Its not so much of an escape mechanism as it is a coping mechanism. One can work to solve problems, but when your voice is silenced, and your resolutions rejected, not to mention your vote, a person can lose their confidence in ever solving problems.
Plus, what a Christian Conservative considers a problem, may not be so for an Atheist Democrat, and vice-versa., e.g; most conservative don't like abortion and most socialist don't like guns.
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Post by dmmichgood on Jan 30, 2021 0:10:45 GMT -5
Some just have more faith that their ancient beliefs will inevitably be the solution to all of the problems facing mankind.
Its not so much of an escape mechanism as it is a coping mechanism. One can work to solve problems, but when your voice is silenced, and your resolutions rejected, not to mention your vote, a person can lose their confidence in ever solving problems.
Plus, what a Christian Conservative considers a problem, may not be so for an Atheist Democrat, and vice-versa., e.g; most conservative don't like abortion and most socialist don't like guns.
I understand how difficult it is sometimes to cope with personal problems as well as world problems. Been there, done that.
But I have learned that I'm not going to cope with either if I can't accept what is the obvious reality, -even though it is not what I'd like to believe, like the election results.
In the long run it is better to acknowledge what is the more obvious truth, -what is the wheat and what is only chaff, especially to oneself!
After all, - the most important person we need to be to be honest with is ourselves for our own sake! Then honesty with others will just automatically fall into line!
It is much better than listening to every snake oil conspiracy theory that happens to come down the pike.
PS: One way to face reality is not to divide people into groups, like "Christian Conservatives" and/or "Atheist Democrats"
There are many "Pro-Choice, Christian, Liberal Republicans" as well as "Pro-Life, Atheist, Conservative Democrats" You can't put people in boxes!
I have worked on human rights issues with advocates on all sides of other beliefs.
example: as an Atheist with the Freeze Nuclear Weapons movement along side of Pro life Catholics!
One day we might find ourselves in one protest group and the next day in an opposing side!
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Post by chuck on Jan 30, 2021 4:33:17 GMT -5
Wally, he is an atheist now... therefore, Chuck doesn't believe in hell/hades/realm of the dead temporary prison after death and AFTER the judgement day cast into Gehenna/Lake of fire for eternity. Read Luke 16 Jesus talked about After Death, the unbelievers souls go Realm of the dead/Hades and Rev. chapters 20-21 God is telling us about Gehenna/Lake of fire/Second death for them forever.
well said brother he actually fooled me for awhile i thought he was a JW or a confusing mish mash of a number of false doctrines but lo and behold the last couple weeks or so its been very revealing. by their fruits you shall know them rings ever true now... You were pretty happy with Gehenna/lake of fire here.....
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 5:06:07 GMT -5
well said brother he actually fooled me for awhile i thought he was a JW or a confusing mish mash of a number of false doctrines but lo and behold the last couple weeks or so its been very revealing. by their fruits you shall know them rings ever true now... You were pretty happy with Gehenna/lake of fire here..... well if you actually look at what i wrote i was addressing nathan saying "Wally, he is an atheist now" i never mention gehenna or the lake of fire or hell or hades or anything else just your status...this may be as bob would put it a lack of critical reading skills or a reading the English language problem. luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try though atheist....
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Post by chuck on Jan 30, 2021 5:44:40 GMT -5
There incoherent because I use your/Nathan's explanation for things and funnily enough, as you just pointed out, there incoherent, they dont go together. They only fit it you separate them and keep them separated and then leap from one thing to other. Im unsure by what you mean "backing of the word sheol"?. It said forever and 3 days. 3 days is forever?. You agreed with Nathan and his Ghenna is the lake of fire opinion, do you not agree now?. i never agreed that gehenna is the lake of fire in fact i posted my understanding of it link included...its hard with a "like" to show what part of a post you like or if its all of the post...if you know of a way to use "like" to show what part of a post you like i'd be happy to hear it... if "sheol" is the word used in jonah it was in the belly of the fish, you just in your previous post denied that it was. this can only mean you no longer think "sheol" was used or you are having a serious cognitive dissonance moment that is leading you to babble incoherently. if its the latter that is happening to you i do understand though that is what happens when you have no good grounding in the word of God. your suppose to be a concept expert right? i suggest you look up what those 3 days in jonah mean. i doubt that will help but it might be worth a try. luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try though atheist You have stated Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus are all the same place Hell. But then when I say Gehenna in the fish you say I babble. So now they aren't all the same place?. My incoherent babble is based on your insistence that they are all the same place. Just like Nathan's Venus/Lucifer/Christ problem. When you take the original meaning and context and put it together its just incoherent babble.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 6:05:51 GMT -5
i never agreed that gehenna is the lake of fire in fact i posted my understanding of it link included...its hard with a "like" to show what part of a post you like or if its all of the post...if you know of a way to use "like" to show what part of a post you like i'd be happy to hear it... if "sheol" is the word used in jonah it was in the belly of the fish, you just in your previous post denied that it was. this can only mean you no longer think "sheol" was used or you are having a serious cognitive dissonance moment that is leading you to babble incoherently. if its the latter that is happening to you i do understand though that is what happens when you have no good grounding in the word of God. your suppose to be a concept expert right? i suggest you look up what those 3 days in jonah mean. i doubt that will help but it might be worth a try. luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try though atheist You have stated Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus are all the same place Hell. But then when I say Gehenna in the fish you say I babble. So now they aren't all the same place?. My incoherent babble is based on your insistence that they are all the same place. Just like Nathan's Venus/Lucifer/Christ problem. When you take the original meaning and context and put it together its just incoherent babble. your definitely having some serious reading problems today in the post you are quoting i said "if "sheol" is the word used in jonah it was in the belly of the fish, you just in your previous post denied that it was. this can only mean you no longer think "sheol" was used or you are having a serious cognitive dissonance moment that is leading you to babble incoherently". maybe its time for some nap time? luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try though atheist
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Post by Gene on Jan 30, 2021 8:36:22 GMT -5
You have stated Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus are all the same place Hell. But then when I say Gehenna in the fish you say I babble. So now they aren't all the same place?. My incoherent babble is based on your insistence that they are all the same place. Just like Nathan's Venus/Lucifer/Christ problem. When you take the original meaning and context and put it together its just incoherent babble. your definitely having some serious reading problems today in the post you are quoting i said "if "sheol" is the word used in jonah it was in the belly of the fish, you just in your previous post denied that it was. this can only mean you no longer think "sheol" was used or you are having a serious cognitive dissonance moment that is leading you to babble incoherently". maybe its time for some nap time? luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try though atheist "you're"
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Post by BobWilliston on Jan 30, 2021 15:39:30 GMT -5
You have stated Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus are all the same place Hell. But then when I say Gehenna in the fish you say I babble. So now they aren't all the same place?. My incoherent babble is based on your insistence that they are all the same place. Just like Nathan's Venus/Lucifer/Christ problem. When you take the original meaning and context and put it together its just incoherent babble. your definitely having some serious reading problems today in the post you are quoting i said "if "sheol" is the word used in jonah it was in the belly of the fish, you just in your previous post denied that it was. this can only mean you no longer think "sheol" was used or you are having a serious cognitive dissonance moment that is leading you to babble incoherently". maybe its time for some nap time? luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try though atheist To my knowledge Jonah spoke neither Hebrew, nor Aramaic, nor Latin, nor English. Who knows what the hell Jonah called it before the interpreters got hold of the story? good try though - - apologist.
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Post by chuck on Jan 30, 2021 15:58:22 GMT -5
You were pretty happy with Gehenna/lake of fire here..... well if you actually look at what i wrote i was addressing nathan saying "Wally, he is an atheist now" i never mention gehenna or the lake of fire or hell or hades or anything else just your status...this may be as bob would put it a lack of critical reading skills or a reading the English language problem. luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try though atheist.... You would say that now wouldn't you.
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Post by chuck on Jan 30, 2021 16:00:51 GMT -5
You have stated Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus are all the same place Hell. But then when I say Gehenna in the fish you say I babble. So now they aren't all the same place?. My incoherent babble is based on your insistence that they are all the same place. Just like Nathan's Venus/Lucifer/Christ problem. When you take the original meaning and context and put it together its just incoherent babble. your definitely having some serious reading problems today in the post you are quoting i said "if "sheol" is the word used in jonah it was in the belly of the fish, you just in your previous post denied that it was. this can only mean you no longer think "sheol" was used or you are having a serious cognitive dissonance moment that is leading you to babble incoherently". maybe its time for some nap time? luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try though atheist No I have never denied it was sheol, I just used other words that you said was the same place anyway. And then you go about debunking yourself by arguing the difference between the words, how can you do that if they're all the same place?.
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Post by chuck on Jan 30, 2021 16:06:44 GMT -5
God created everything but sin... Hell may have a physical location in the universe, or it may be in an entirely different spiritual dimension. I tend to think of hell as more of an adjective than a noun. Paradise is a pleasant dream, hell is a nightmare. If you know that your condemned to die, you'll experience hell no matter where you are... jmo
when did God create hell?
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Post by mountain on Jan 30, 2021 16:30:45 GMT -5
God created everything but sin... Hell may have a physical location in the universe, or it may be in an entirely different spiritual dimension. I tend to think of hell as more of an adjective than a noun. Paradise is a pleasant dream, hell is a nightmare. If you know that your condemned to die, you'll experience hell no matter where you are... jmo
when did God create hell? When he created the heavens and the earth.
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Post by mountain on Jan 30, 2021 16:31:59 GMT -5
You have stated Sheol/Hades/Gehenna/Tartarus are all the same place Hell. But then when I say Gehenna in the fish you say I babble. So now they aren't all the same place?. My incoherent babble is based on your insistence that they are all the same place. Just like Nathan's Venus/Lucifer/Christ problem. When you take the original meaning and context and put it together its just incoherent babble. your definitely having some serious reading problems today in the post you are quoting i said "if "sheol" is the word used in jonah it was in the belly of the fish, you just in your previous post denied that it was. this can only mean you no longer think "sheol" was used or you are having a serious cognitive dissonance moment that is leading you to babble incoherently". maybe its time for some nap time? luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try though atheist I thought Chuck was a diehard 2x2, but with the diehard bit removed.......and maybe one of the 2's?
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Post by nathan on Jan 30, 2021 16:51:45 GMT -5
God created everything but sin... Hell may have a physical location in the universe, or it may be in an entirely different spiritual dimension. I tend to think of hell as more of an adjective than a noun. Paradise is a pleasant dream, hell is a nightmare. If you know that your condemned to die, you'll experience hell no matter where you are... jmo
when did God create hell? *** God created Hades/Realm of the dead for unbelievers souls and believers souls departure after death because of SINS, a temporary dwelling place to hold all humans souls until the Judgement day. After the death of Jesus, he paid the ran some price in Full for the believers souls in Hades/inner earth, His Spirit went there after death to set them FREE from there and brought them home/heaven to be with Him and God the Father. After Satan failured rebellion War in heaven, God created Gehenna/Lake of fire for Eternity for him, 1/3 of the fallen angels, and unbelievers souls to place there for eternity. Hades/inner earth is the first death a foretaste of Gehenna/Lake of fire forever to come= is the Second death.
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Post by Dan on Jan 30, 2021 16:52:22 GMT -5
God created everything but sin... Hell may have a physical location in the universe, or it may be in an entirely different spiritual dimension. I tend to think of hell as more of an adjective than a noun. Paradise is a pleasant dream, hell is a nightmare. If you know that your condemned to die, you'll experience hell no matter where you are... jmo
when did God create hell?
Don't know exactly when, but I suspect it was sometime after, "For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17). Hell likely became a reality with the knowledge of evil, experiencing evil, and separation from God.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 17:41:13 GMT -5
your definitely having some serious reading problems today in the post you are quoting i said "if "sheol" is the word used in jonah it was in the belly of the fish, you just in your previous post denied that it was. this can only mean you no longer think "sheol" was used or you are having a serious cognitive dissonance moment that is leading you to babble incoherently". maybe its time for some nap time? luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try though atheist No I have never denied it was sheol, I just used other words that you said was the same place anyway. And then you go about debunking yourself by arguing the difference between the words, how can you do that if they're all the same place?. when i asked you how "sheol" got into the belly of the fish. you said "it didn't" that can only mean you no longer think "sheol" was used or you are having a serious cognitive dissonance moment that is leading you to babble incoherently. i'm thinking it is probably a little of both. naps are good you should consider talking one. no debunking myself required. luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try atheist...take that nap
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2021 17:42:44 GMT -5
God created everything but sin... Hell may have a physical location in the universe, or it may be in an entirely different spiritual dimension. I tend to think of hell as more of an adjective than a noun. Paradise is a pleasant dream, hell is a nightmare. If you know that your condemned to die, you'll experience hell no matter where you are... jmo
when did God create hell? most likely when satan and his angels fell(no scripture for that though)...
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Post by nathan on Jan 30, 2021 17:59:38 GMT -5
when did God create hell? most likely when satan and his angels fell(no scripture for that though)... ** The book of Jude, he wrote God has the fallen angels kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgent day after that to be cast into the Lake of fire.
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Post by chuck on Feb 3, 2021 6:01:30 GMT -5
when did God create hell? When he created the heavens and the earth. Which Hell?, and I don't believe the mixed version of Hell existed in Genesis.
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Post by chuck on Feb 3, 2021 6:05:54 GMT -5
No I have never denied it was sheol, I just used other words that you said was the same place anyway. And then you go about debunking yourself by arguing the difference between the words, how can you do that if they're all the same place?. when i asked you how "sheol" got into the belly of the fish. you said "it didn't" that can only mean you no longer think "sheol" was used or you are having a serious cognitive dissonance moment that is leading you to babble incoherently. i'm thinking it is probably a little of both. naps are good you should consider talking one. no debunking myself required. luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try atheist...take that nap Oh I believe sheol was used. I just don't think it was literally in the belly of a fish. The incoherent babble is a mix of your posts not mine. How did Gehenna get into the belly of the fish?. Or what about the Gates of Hades, how on earth did they end up in the fish?.
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Post by chuck on Feb 3, 2021 6:09:17 GMT -5
when did God create hell? most likely when satan and his angels fell(no scripture for that though)... Oh but there is scripture, and God didn't create it, and its not a literal place like the mixed mutated one religion invented.
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Post by chuck on Feb 3, 2021 6:13:52 GMT -5
most likely when satan and his angels fell(no scripture for that though)... ** The book of Jude, he wrote God has the fallen angels kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgent day after that to be cast into the Lake of fire. Ah Jude, another confirmation that Hell isn't what you think it is. In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. - Jude 1:7 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jude1:7&version=NIVHell as a present reality again. Unless you can point to were Sodom and Gomorrah are still literally burning......
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Post by chuck on Feb 3, 2021 6:16:32 GMT -5
when did God create hell?
Don't know exactly when, but I suspect it was sometime after, "For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17). Hell likely became a reality with the knowledge of evil, experiencing evil, and separation from God.
God didn't create Hell, we did!..... and still do.... 15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. - Matthew 23:15 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew23:15&version=NIV
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Post by chuck on Feb 3, 2021 6:21:10 GMT -5
when did God create hell? *** God created Hades/Realm of the dead for unbelievers souls and believers souls departure after death because of SINS, a temporary dwelling place to hold all humans souls until the Judgement day. After the death of Jesus, he paid the ran some price in Full for the believers souls in Hades/inner earth, His Spirit went there after death to set them FREE from there and brought them home/heaven to be with Him and God the Father. After Satan failured rebellion War in heaven, God created Gehenna/Lake of fire for Eternity for him, 1/3 of the fallen angels, and unbelievers souls to place there for eternity. Hades/inner earth is the first death a foretaste of Gehenna/Lake of fire forever to come= is the Second death. I believe men created Gehenna, that is a undesputible fact. The Hebraic Definition of Eternal has no resemblance to your definition of Eternal. Stop ignoring this fact. There was a war inside Venus?. How did a war happen inside Lucifer/Christ/Morning Star?.
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Post by Dan on Feb 3, 2021 6:36:01 GMT -5
Don't know exactly when, but I suspect it was sometime after, "For in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17). Hell likely became a reality with the knowledge of evil, experiencing evil, and separation from God.
God didn't create Hell, we did!..... and still do.... 15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are. - Matthew 23:15 www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew23:15&version=NIV
I kind of agree, we created our own hell via disobedience.. That was sort of my point, hell began the moment Eve picked that apple (fig). We simply remain in our hell after death if we fail to repent and reject the one who can deliver us from it. "Thou shalt surely die" applied to both our physical and spiritual future. Hell began when the Tree of Life was removed from the garden, the escape from hell was offered when that same Life Giver hung on a tree at Golgotha.
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Post by Annan on Feb 3, 2021 6:39:51 GMT -5
I kind of agree, we created our own hell via disobedience.. That was sort of my point, hell began the moment Eve picked that apple (fig). We simply remain in our hell after death if we fail to repent and reject the one who can deliver us from it. "Thou shalt surely die" applied to both our physical and spiritual future. Hell began when the Tree of Life was removed from the garden, the escape from hell was offered when that same Life Giver hung on a tree at Golgotha. Thanks, Dan. That is how I saw hell when I was a believer.
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Post by mountain on Feb 3, 2021 7:06:40 GMT -5
When he created the heavens and the earth. Which Hell?, and I don't believe the mixed version of Hell existed in Genesis. We can only go by what scripture says. If you don't believe in God and his human being son Jesus, then the debate ends here. Genesis 1 (KJV) 1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.Whatever we believe hell to be, it is located in the Earth. Therefore it was created at the time the Earth was created! John 8 (KJV) 23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.Jesus made it plain that he was not of this world (the Earth). He was from above, or from God. That's who he was serving. As for the Pharisees, they were from beneath, or below. They were of this world. Beneath is the home of the devil. It is in the bowels of this world. Jesus pointed out their father was the devil. The children of the devil are from below, or beneath, They are from the household of their father, the devil. Those who follow Christ, are from above, because their father is God. Therefore, hell is NOT a refuse tip on the outskirts of a town. It is a place where the devil and his children will live. Sometimes I think some Ozzies like yourself, are keen to play down the hell thing and I think this comes from the top side of the world referring to Oz as being down under. I have visited Oz and I can assure you it no way resembles my vision of hell. I would love to re-visit Oz, but I hope never to visit hell even once. I was married once and that came very close, too close! John 8 (KJV)
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2021 8:09:20 GMT -5
when i asked you how "sheol" got into the belly of the fish. you said "it didn't" that can only mean you no longer think "sheol" was used or you are having a serious cognitive dissonance moment that is leading you to babble incoherently. i'm thinking it is probably a little of both. naps are good you should consider talking one. no debunking myself required. luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try atheist...take that nap Oh I believe sheol was used. I just don't think it was literally in the belly of a fish. The incoherent babble is a mix of your posts not mine. How did Gehenna get into the belly of the fish?. Or what about the Gates of Hades, how on earth did they end up in the fish?. then your incoherent babbling line of questioning is beyond stupid... luke 16 Christ clarified everything about it read it, get use to it, understand it its gonna happen. Hell/the grave/Sheol/Hades/gehenna were all the same place, same result...hell is waiting good try atheist...take a nap...
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