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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2020 20:42:07 GMT -5
Antibiotics won't help in this case though. However, if you got the virus and a secondary bacterial infection, then they would possibly be useful. Yeah, I think that is why Azithromycin is such an important part of this protocol. (Plus, the zinc, for other reasons.) That is why many people are upset with the trials being carried out by the WHO and others (Canadian trials, as far as I have seen as well). They either call for Chloroquinine or Hydroxychloroquinine on their own, plus no distinction between early and late treatment. I thought the intravenous Vit C was interesting. I think they will likely be trying these things more and more as results come in if they are positive. Right now so little is known and so they are being cautious. But if the deaths keep increasing they may become more open to trying these things. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 12, 2020 20:47:40 GMT -5
I hope to God on some distant shore that our leaders, our fourth column, and our populations, will negotiate quarantines with intelligence. The blanket lock downs are a function of politics and culture. People suck. There's no other greater story to the story. What should have happened was all people coming out of China should have been quarantined back in January. Failing that, all people coming into the US should have been quarantined. I've heard Trump many times saying things like "it's just like influenza" and "there's nothing to be concerned about". Even today he is saying there won't be as many deaths as the experts predict. Trump is woefully uninformed and many of his statements have been way off the mark and lacking in credibility. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 12, 2020 20:49:29 GMT -5
Yeah, I think that is why Azithromycin is such an important part of this protocol. (Plus, the zinc, for other reasons.) That is why many people are upset with the trials being carried out by the WHO and others (Canadian trials, as far as I have seen as well). They either call for Chloroquinine or Hydroxychloroquinine on their own, plus no distinction between early and late treatment. I thought the intravenous Vit C was interesting. I think they will likely be trying these things more and more as results come in if they are positive. Right now so little is known and so they are being cautious. But if the deaths keep increasing they may become more open to trying these things. On an intellectual level, I understand the need for proper double-blind randomized trials. All the same, on a personal level, with what is known at this point, I would really like the "right-to-try" and the ability to choose my own treatment. |
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2020 20:57:56 GMT -5
I thought the intravenous Vit C was interesting. I think they will likely be trying these things more and more as results come in if they are positive. Right now so little is known and so they are being cautious. But if the deaths keep increasing they may become more open to trying these things. On an intellectual level, I understand the need for proper double-blind randomized trials. All the same, on a personal level, with what is known at this point, I would really like the "right-to-try" and the ability to choose my own treatment. That I understand. And, if someone is dying why not try something like that? I would be a test patient. The more they do use it the faster we will be able to know if it works or is not good and shouldn't be used. It's not a simple decision though. At least not for those who have to administer it. For the one dying I think it's a lot easier to accept something that hasn't been subjected to good thorough testing. |
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Post by Lee on Apr 12, 2020 21:03:25 GMT -5
I hope to God on some distant shore that our leaders, our fourth column, and our populations, will negotiate quarantines with intelligence. The blanket lock downs are a function of politics and culture. People suck. There's no other greater story to the story. What should have happened was all people coming out of China should have been quarantined back in January. Failing that, all people coming into the US should have been quarantined. I've heard Trump many times saying things like "it's just like influenza" and "there's nothing to be concerned about". Even today he is saying there won't be as many deaths as the experts predict. Trump is woefully uninformed and many of his statements have been way off the mark and lacking in credibility. Youre obsessed with Trump. You want to damn him. Fauci and other leaders here weren't for lockdowns before he was. |
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Post by Dan on Apr 12, 2020 22:31:33 GMT -5
True, but its an unfortunate side-effect of shutting down. Economic distress can be endured for awhile, but a prolonged shutdown is what worries me. If they gave a definitive end date, people could make financial decisions, but its the not knowing how long this will persist that's a conundrum. I can personally last 5 to 8 years with no assistance, but then I'm throwing in the towel and will go to live with some rich relatives  . Yes, the economic repercussions are huge. The alternative is not pretty though. Thousands of people gasping for breath with no medical help. The moral implications are huge. How much value do we put on human life?
How much money can we afford to put on a human life? There will come a point when governments can't continue to subsidize everyone. If the virus is not subdued in 2 or 3 months, I suspect people will go back to work out of shear necessity? Shutting down for more than a quarter will turn once vibrant economies into 3rd world countries. The presumption that we can beat this virus might be a false dichotomy? It may simply run its course and then possibly return for a second attack. But of course we've got to try. In the meantime, I bought a pup tent and am prepared to rough it .
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Post by fixit on Apr 12, 2020 22:56:57 GMT -5
What should have happened was all people coming out of China should have been quarantined back in January. Failing that, all people coming into the US should have been quarantined. I've heard Trump many times saying things like "it's just like influenza" and "there's nothing to be concerned about". Even today he is saying there won't be as many deaths as the experts predict. Trump is woefully uninformed and many of his statements have been way off the mark and lacking in credibility. Youre obsessed with Trump. You want to damn him. Fauci and other leaders here weren't for lockdowns before he was. No, I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt while many others were damning him. Fact is, he's been saying a lot of stuff that is plain wrong. He's also shown very poor leadership around the COVID-19 response. www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/12/us-global-reputation-rock-bottom-donald-trump-coronavirus |
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Post by fixit on Apr 12, 2020 23:02:53 GMT -5
How much money can we afford to put on a human life? There will come a point when governments can't continue to subsidize everyone. If the virus is not subdued in 2 or 3 months, I suspect people will go back to work out of shear necessity? Shutting down for more than a quarter will turn once vibrant economies into 3rd world countries. The presumption that we can beat this virus might be a false dichotomy? It may simply run its course and then possibly return for a second attack. But of course we've got to try. In the meantime, I bought a pup tent and am prepared to rough it . I agree that there is a limit to how much a country can afford to spend on saving a life. The biggest cost is a half-hearted response. A proper lockdown can stop this virus in a few weeks but few countries have proven willing to do that. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 12, 2020 23:24:03 GMT -5
<abbr title="Apr 12, 2020 5:34:57 GMT -5" class="o-timestamp time" data-timestamp="1586687697000">Apr 12, 2020 5:34:57 GMT -5</abbr> dmmichgood said: [Your quote]
"And no, I don't have kids to worry about, but if I had adult children, I suspect they would be helping their old man out ..
It was apparent that you didn't have children otherwise you would know more about families.
My daughter had just got a job after being unemployed for over six months.
Now we are ALL concerned about whether she will still have that job when this is over.
One son hasn't had a full time job for several years because of changes in the technology of the printing business.
He also had just gotten another part time job lately
My oldest son is disabled & lives with me.
So, you don't think I have a lot I could complain about as well?
Talking about the stock market, -what little I have I hoped would last me for the rest of my life & perhaps I could leave some to my family.
Now I know it could all go poof! -bang just like that!
No, -I don't agree with you that all people act like it is "a dog eat dog world where the strong survive and the weak fall by the wayside"
I'm amazed at the number of people who are out there volunteering to help other people & are taking a chance on getting the virus themselves.
Sorry your kids are struggling... In the business world, the strong do survive, the weak go bankrupt. I'm not complaining, but just describing my situation in this "How is everyone here coping through this pandemic?" thread. I'm coping pretty good, probably better than most. I mistakingly presumed you and others were very well off financially, ya'll sounded like rich folks . I didn't think you understood that not everyone had the luxury of just sitting around the house and enjoying a 6 week vacation while the government was throwing $1200 checks their way. Purely from a numbers perspective, we can look at any number of illnesses that have resulted in vastly more deaths than COVID-19 has dealt us so far. Yet, we never shut down the economy. We never said, “don’t go out.” And we never threatened to imprison or fine U.S. citizens for hanging out together. Shutting down an entire economy just seems like a over-reaction to me, and if this thing persist for another month or two, the financial repercussions are going to be horrendous.
So while your looking at the immediate picture, I'm considering the bigger picture, I reckon both perspectives are important.
Why do you think "we" are only "looking at the immediate picture?"
Why do you think that you are the only one "considering the bigger picture?" |
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 12, 2020 23:42:00 GMT -5
What should have happened was all people coming out of China should have been quarantined back in January. Failing that, all people coming into the US should have been quarantined. I've heard Trump many times saying things like "it's just like influenza" and "there's nothing to be concerned about". Even today he is saying there won't be as many deaths as the experts predict. Trump is woefully uninformed and many of his statements have been way off the mark and lacking in credibility. Youre obsessed with Trump. You want to damn him. Fauci and other leaders here weren't for lockdowns before he was.
Fauci isn't able to make such political decisions.
However, political leaders around the country, -like our own governor here in Illinois, -did listen to what Dr. Fauci was saying about how the virus was spread & and how fast it was spread and they understood what needed to be done and & did issue such lockdown orders.
In fact, -did Trump ever issue any lock down orders at all? 
Last I heard he was refusing to do so!  |
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Post by Dan on Apr 13, 2020 0:00:25 GMT -5
WHERE IN THE HELL DID YOU GET THE "ASSUMPTION" THAT WE WERE RICH?
Why do you think "we" are only "looking at the immediate picture?"
Why do you think that you are the only one "considering the bigger picture?"
When people lecture you on the necessity of staying home with no income coming in for a couple months, I guess I just mistakenly presumed that they themselves have the financial means to do that.
Most seem consumed with the immediate picture, which is understandable, but not many have expressed concern with the longer term economic impact. Probably because you have no business at risk.
The bigger picture is keeping businesses in business after the fact, retired folks don't need to be as concerned about that. And I didn't say that I was the only one concerned about that.
You seem to have a unique propensity to extrapolate negative connotations from simple comments. But no ones attacking you, so there's no reason to get defensive or to exaggerate an opinion into a personal put down. Just stating that your not wealthy or that you have considered the post corona virus scenario would suffice. No need to get accusational or angry.
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Post by fixit on Apr 13, 2020 0:24:39 GMT -5
Youre obsessed with Trump. You want to damn him. Fauci and other leaders here weren't for lockdowns before he was.
Fauci isn't able to make such political decisions.
However, political leaders around the country, -like our own governor here in Illinois, -did listen to what Dr. Fauci was saying about how the virus was spread & and how fast it was spread and they understood what needed to be done and & did issue such lockdown orders.
In fact, -did Trump ever issue any lock down orders at all?
Last I heard he was refusing to do so! Trump wants to be the big hero and lift the lock-down orders that he never gave. Clearly the states are on their own because leadership from the White House on the issue is absent. It really needs nationwide co-ordination because the infection has no respect for state borders. However if Trump won't take the lead he might as well just shut up. He's making an utter fool of himself, and making it harder for the adults in American politics to get things done. |
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2020 1:46:53 GMT -5
WHERE IN THE HELL DID YOU GET THE "ASSUMPTION" THAT WE WERE RICH?
Why do you think "we" are only "looking at the immediate picture?"
Why do you think that you are the only one "considering the bigger picture?" When people lecture you on the necessity of staying home with no income coming in for a couple months, I guess I just mistakenly presumed that they themselves have the financial means to do that.
Most seem consumed with the immediate picture, which is understandable, but not many have expressed concern with the longer term economic impact. Probably because you have no business at risk.
The bigger picture is keeping businesses in business after the fact, retired folks don't need to be as concerned about that. And I didn't say that I was the only one concerned about that.
You seem to have a unique propensity to extrapolate negative connotations from simple comments. But no ones attacking you, so there's no reason to get defensive or to exaggerate an opinion into a personal put down. Just stating that your not wealthy or that you have considered the post corona virus scenario would suffice. No need to get accusational or angry.
In my experience it isn't a lecture to tell people of the necessity of following medical guidelines.
All of my working life was spent as a Registered Nurse.
I know that such guidelines are not necessarily pleasant to hear but they are there for our own & everyone else's safety.
I am also trying to point out the fact that people who "mistakenly presume" things about other people should perhaps rethink their positions.
Just because I have "no business at risk" also doesn't mean that I can't understand those that might have.
Neither can I understand why you seem to believe "retired folks don't need to be as concerned about" business!
Right Dan, - you didn't say that you was the only one concerned about the "bigger picture" - but you did say:
"So while your looking at the immediate picture, I'm considering the bigger picture,
You keep saying this over & over! - that YOU are the one "considering the bigger picture," -but from your posts I am not able to see that you really are looking at the "bigger picture" -because you don't seem to understand just how much this is hurting everyone else and not just you!
"No man is an island unto himself." |
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Post by Pragmatic on Apr 13, 2020 2:42:43 GMT -5
The way I see it this:
Trump is the product of a flawed system of Governance, and was probably the lesser of two evils. Personally I cringe when he opens his mouth.
He has been clever though in identifying a corrupt media and military-industrial complex that stands for everything he ran against, so he uses Twitter to get his message out directly. It worked in 2016, and continues to work. Hence the impeachment attempt, the opposition to Kavanaugh etc.
One of his biggest mistakes was to leave a number of hangover appointments from the previous administration who then set about to undo him, when in fact he should have replaced them.
He then made the mistake of listening to a number of them, and as Tulsi Gabbard pointed out, it is easy to get into the hat situation when you’re confronted with lots of military uniforms and citations.
The Chinese deliberately fed a line and controlled the narrative on Covid, when it was clearly disingenuous, and he and Fauci and others took them at their word. Big mistake, and Fauci says they will revisit that when the Pandemic is over.
The fractured system of Governance means that you have state government fighting against the federal government, and Dems vs Republicans. The bipartisan and strong charactered nature of American politicians, means that finding a unity like we have in our own small country can never happen.
It is hard to provide leadership to a country where half the people not only do not want to be led by Trump, but will do anything to bring him down. For example the hoarding of ventilators. In NYC by Cuomo, who then complained he didn’t have enough, when in fact he did.
When Ben Carson describes events, I would believe him over the likes of Jim Acosta any day.
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Post by fixit on Apr 13, 2020 2:57:20 GMT -5
Fauci is saying there was a lot of pushback to the earlier calls for social distancing.
Trump is saying the biggest decision he's ever made is when to get the country up and running again.
Fauci is saying, quite rightly, that it's not a switch. Effectively contradicting Trump.
If the country faced an imminent military threat I'd like to think the decision making would be more effective.
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Post by mountain on Apr 13, 2020 3:01:13 GMT -5
How much money can we afford to put on a human life? There will come a point when governments can't continue to subsidize everyone. If the virus is not subdued in 2 or 3 months, I suspect people will go back to work out of shear necessity? Shutting down for more than a quarter will turn once vibrant economies into 3rd world countries. The presumption that we can beat this virus might be a false dichotomy? It may simply run its course and then possibly return for a second attack. But of course we've got to try. In the meantime, I bought a pup tent and am prepared to rough it . I agree that there is a limit to how much a country can afford to spend on saving a life. The biggest cost is a half-hearted response. A proper lockdown can stop this virus in a few weeks but few countries have proven willing to do that. It happened in the Yuke A as well. |
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Post by Pragmatic on Apr 13, 2020 3:13:35 GMT -5
Fauci is saying there was a lot of pushback to the earlier calls for social distancing. Trump is saying the biggest decision he's ever made is when to get the country up and running again. Fauci is saying, quite rightly, that it's not a switch. Effectively contradicting Trump. If the country faced an imminent military threat I'd like to think the decision making would be more effective. Yup, as I said, I cringe when Trump opens his mouth. In some ways, Fauci reminds me of our Bloomfield, quiet and academic. The constitution makes sure that decision making will always be fractured, as only Congress can authorise war, and with Pelosi and Schaffer’s there, they will always oppose Trump, just like the GOP opposed Obama. I am happy to live under our Westminster system. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 13, 2020 4:18:06 GMT -5
Fauci is saying there was a lot of pushback to the earlier calls for social distancing. Trump is saying the biggest decision he's ever made is when to get the country up and running again. Fauci is saying, quite rightly, that it's not a switch. Effectively contradicting Trump. If the country faced an imminent military threat I'd like to think the decision making would be more effective. Yup, as I said, I cringe when Trump opens his mouth. In some ways, Fauci reminds me of our Bloomfield, quiet and academic. The constitution makes sure that decision making will always be fractured, as only Congress can authorise war, and with Pelosi and Schaffer’s there, they will always oppose Trump, just like the GOP opposed Obama. I am happy to live under our Westminster system. It is interesting to see how it switched to a committee system these last few weeks. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 13, 2020 7:09:58 GMT -5
Yup, as I said, I cringe when Trump opens his mouth. In some ways, Fauci reminds me of our Bloomfield, quiet and academic. The constitution makes sure that decision making will always be fractured, as only Congress can authorise war, and with Pelosi and Schaffer’s there, they will always oppose Trump, just like the GOP opposed Obama. I am happy to live under our Westminster system. It is interesting to see how it switched to a committee system these last few weeks. Yeah, that's only while we're all under house arrest. It's good to see politicians of all stripes working together, along with top business leaders, scientist/medical people, police, civil defence. They even had the military and territorials on standby. I don't like Jacinda's government but I have to say she has communicated this very well and got the country behind her. And it's working!  |
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 13, 2020 11:49:25 GMT -5
Trump takes no correction . He sat on this pandemic and endangered many .
Simple put he is dangerous to man kind .
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2020 13:39:16 GMT -5
You are wrong, Lee!
Fauci isn't able to make such political decisions.
However, political leaders around the country, -like our own governor here in Illinois, -did listen to what Dr. Fauci was saying about how the virus was spread & and how fast it was spread and they understood what needed to be done and & did issue such lockdown orders.
In fact, -did Trump ever issue any lock down orders at all?
Last I heard he was refusing to do so! Trump wants to be the big hero and lift the lock-down orders that he never gave. Clearly the states are on their own because leadership from the White House on the issue is absent. It really needs nationwide co-ordination because the infection has no respect for state borders. However if Trump won't take the lead he might as well just shut up. He's making an utter fool of himself, and making it harder for the adults in American politics to get things done. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 13, 2020 15:08:56 GMT -5
I suspect in the wash-up that even though the US might have a pretty torrid time, they will bounce back quicker than most. Prior to the pandemic, their economy was firing better than most and I suspect that this will resume after a pause. I have always had great respect for the entrepreneurial ability of the American people. Also, it's a huge and competitive market that encourages innovation and efficiency. I don't have the numbers but I think the Trump economic boom was fueled by debt due to tax cuts and more quantitative easing, hardly robust economic growth. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 13, 2020 19:54:14 GMT -5
QE is fascinating - at the same time the Govt is issuing debt via bonds, the Reserve Banks are buying them so an arm of Govt ends owning a large tranche of what is issued! The challenge is often that it quickly flows through to asset prices which is okay if you own assets but a struggle if you're trying to buy them! That's my concern. It's inequality by stealth and it's not healthy for a society. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 13, 2020 20:04:55 GMT -5
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 13, 2020 20:51:17 GMT -5
WHERE IN THE HELL DID YOU GET THE "ASSUMPTION" THAT WE WERE RICH?
Why do you think "we" are only "looking at the immediate picture?"
Why do you think that you are the only one "considering the bigger picture?"
When people lecture you on the necessity of staying home with no income coming in for a couple months, I guess I just mistakenly presumed that they themselves have the financial means to do that.
Most seem consumed with the immediate picture, which is understandable, but not many have expressed concern with the longer term economic impact. Probably because you have no business at risk.
The bigger picture is keeping businesses in business after the fact, retired folks don't need to be as concerned about that. And I didn't say that I was the only one concerned about that.
You seem to have a unique propensity to extrapolate negative connotations from simple comments. But no ones attacking you, so there's no reason to get defensive or to exaggerate an opinion into a personal put down. Just stating that your not wealthy or that you have considered the post corona virus scenario would suffice. No need to get accusational or angry.
When people lecture you on the necessity of staying home with no income coming in for a couple months, I guess I just mistakenly presumed that they themselves have the financial means to do that.
Most seem consumed with the immediate picture, which is understandable, but not many have expressed concern with the longer term economic impact. Probably because you have no business at risk.
The bigger picture is keeping businesses in business after the fact, retired folks don't need to be as concerned about that. And I didn't say that I was the only one concerned about that.
You seem to have a unique propensity to extrapolate negative connotations from simple comments. But no ones attacking you, so there's no reason to get defensive or to exaggerate an opinion into a personal put down. Just stating that your not wealthy or that you have considered the post corona virus scenario would suffice. No need to get accusational or angry.
In my experience it isn't a lecture to tell people of the necessity of following medical guidelines.
All of my working life was spent as a Registered Nurse.
I know that such guidelines are not necessarily pleasant to hear but they are there for our own & everyone else's safety.
I am also trying to point out the fact that people who "mistakenly presume" things about other people should perhaps rethink their positions.
Just because I have "no business at risk" also doesn't mean that I can't understand those that might have.
Neither can I understand why you seem to believe "retired folks don't need to be as concerned about" business!
Right Dan, - you didn't say that you was the only one concerned about the "bigger picture" - but you did say:
"So while your looking at the immediate picture, I'm considering the bigger picture,
You keep saying this over & over! - that YOU are the one "considering the bigger picture," -but from your posts I am not able to see that you really are looking at the "bigger picture" -because you don't seem to understand just how much this is hurting everyone else and not just you!
"No man is an island unto himself." |
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 13, 2020 20:51:36 GMT -5
When people lecture you on the necessity of staying home with no income coming in for a couple months, I guess I just mistakenly presumed that they themselves have the financial means to do that.
Most seem consumed with the immediate picture, which is understandable, but not many have expressed concern with the longer term economic impact. Probably because you have no business at risk.
The bigger picture is keeping businesses in business after the fact, retired folks don't need to be as concerned about that. And I didn't say that I was the only one concerned about that.
You seem to have a unique propensity to extrapolate negative connotations from simple comments. But no ones attacking you, so there's no reason to get defensive or to exaggerate an opinion into a personal put down. Just stating that your not wealthy or that you have considered the post corona virus scenario would suffice. No need to get accusational or angry.
Dan.
In my experience it isn't a lecture to tell people of the necessity of following medical guidelines.
All of my working life was spent as a Registered Nurse.
I know that such guidelines are not necessarily pleasant to hear but they are there for our own & everyone else's safety.
I am also trying to point out the fact that people who "mistakenly presume" things about other people should perhaps rethink their positions.
Just because I have "no business at risk" also doesn't mean that I can't understand those that might have.
Neither can I understand why you seem to believe "retired folks don't need to be as concerned about" business!
Right Dan, - you didn't say that you was the only one concerned about the "bigger picture" - but you did say:
"So while your looking at the immediate picture, I'm considering the bigger picture,
You keep saying this over & over! - that YOU are the one "considering the bigger picture," -but from your posts I am not able to see that you really are looking at the "bigger picture" -because you don't seem to understand just how much this is hurting everyone else and not just you!
"No man is an island unto himself." |
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Post by fixit on Apr 13, 2020 22:18:50 GMT -5
I think its safe to say most democracies have a big money printer. It's because most people don't care about government debt - they vote for the politicians making the biggest promises. Thankfully our governments over the last 35 years have mostly been restrained in their borrowing. It kept our wages subdued compared with other Western countries but resulted in less debt than most. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 13, 2020 22:50:14 GMT -5
I think its safe to say most democracies have a big money printer. It's because most people don't care about government debt - they vote for the politicians making the biggest promises. Thankfully our governments over the last 35 years have mostly been restrained in their borrowing. It kept our wages subdued compared with other Western countries but resulted in less debt than most. The Fiscal Responsibility Act (1994) is largely responsible. Every govt since then has worked within the parameters of it. I think Ruth Richardson was responsible for it. It has been updated. It could also be argued that it has held certain parts of the economy back such as public infrastructure, both horizontal and vertical. This is all going to change in the next few weeks as the govt looks set to borrow lots of moola to kick start the economy. |
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