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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 19, 2020 12:58:51 GMT -5
To the wonderful person who offered to take flowers to my AUNTIE YOU HAVE MORE COMPASSION than them . You made me cry !! Such a beautiful soul
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 19, 2020 13:09:46 GMT -5
The words are how I honoured to my dad at his funeral . He also asked for It’s Amazing 😉 You Can Let Go Now Daddy Lyrics to You can let go now daddy , I spoke the words You can let me go now DADDY ! 32M views
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 19, 2020 13:52:42 GMT -5
It should be fine to have for-profit health providers, but the government should pay for the health care if its citizens. Is that how it works in Canada? The health insurance part is where the dysfunction is, I would suggest.
Government doesn't really pay for anything that they don't take from someone else, because governments don't generate revenue, they collect it... Nothings free.
Canadians pay for health care — though not necessarily their own health care. The amount varies a lot, depending on who you are. Canadians at the bottom of the income distribution don’t pay very much — $471 a year . Those in the middle average $6,000-$7,000 a year while those in the top 10 per cent of the income distribution average a whopping $39,123 a year on health care. If you do it by family type — single person, couple, single mom, two-parent family two kids, and so on — it also varies a lot, from $3,994 to $12,410 a year. Where do these numbers come from? The Fraser Institute’s researchers — Feixue Ren, Milagros Palacios and Bacchus Barua — looked at how much people paid in taxes each year and then assumed that 23.5 per cent of that money went to health care. How come 23.5 per cent? Because that’s the best available estimate of how much of the tax revenues Canadian governments haul in is spent on health care. link
The Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) believes Canada spent approximately $228 billion on health care in 2016. That’s 11.1 per cent of Canada’s entire GDP and $6,299 for every Canadian resident. Canada spent $5,543 per resident, more than the United Kingdom ($4,986) and Australia ($5,187) but less than Sweden ($6,245) and far less than the United States ($11,126). The “average” Canadian family, consisting of two adults and two children, earning about $127,000, will pay about $12,000 a year for public health care. link
Take 60% off the USA's figure, $11126 and you will have what is actually spent on the patient. That is only $4450. The rest ends up in the pockets of the insurers and the lawyers. 60% of the American medical costs, rather than going to delivery of treatment, goes to administration of an extremely elaborately complicated delivery system as well as the system of legal oversight that can scarcely keep on top of the fraud that the whole complicated system fosters.
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Post by fixit on Apr 19, 2020 15:43:38 GMT -5
Government doesn't really pay for anything that they don't take from someone else, because governments don't generate revenue, they collect it... Nothings free. That's true. I wish all voters around the world would realise that. Governments have the capacity to borrow but that's just spending the next generation's productivity. Many voters keep pushing their governments to spend until borrowing reaches capacity. Then they go through a period of "austerity". They get sick of that after a few years and elect another over-spending government. And so it goes on. Balanced budgets should be considered the norm. When a budget is in deficit, there should be a good explanation and a plan to bring it back into balance.
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Post by xna on Apr 19, 2020 16:31:27 GMT -5
It should be fine to have for-profit health providers, but the government should pay for the health care if its citizens. Is that how it works in Canada? The health insurance part is where the dysfunction is, I would suggest.
Government doesn't really pay for anything that they don't take from someone else, because governments don't generate revenue, they collect it... Nothings free.
Canadians pay for health care — though not necessarily their own health care. The amount varies a lot, depending on who you are. Canadians at the bottom of the income distribution don’t pay very much — $471 a year . Those in the middle average $6,000-$7,000 a year while those in the top 10 per cent of the income distribution average a whopping $39,123 a year on health care. If you do it by family type — single person, couple, single mom, two-parent family two kids, and so on — it also varies a lot, from $3,994 to $12,410 a year. Where do these numbers come from? The Fraser Institute’s researchers — Feixue Ren, Milagros Palacios and Bacchus Barua — looked at how much people paid in taxes each year and then assumed that 23.5 per cent of that money went to health care. How come 23.5 per cent? Because that’s the best available estimate of how much of the tax revenues Canadian governments haul in is spent on health care. link
The Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) believes Canada spent approximately $228 billion on health care in 2016. That’s 11.1 per cent of Canada’s entire GDP and $6,299 for every Canadian resident. Canada spent $5,543 per resident, more than the United Kingdom ($4,986) and Australia ($5,187) but less than Sweden ($6,245) and far less than the United States ($11,126). The “average” Canadian family, consisting of two adults and two children, earning about $127,000, will pay about $12,000 a year for public health care. link
These figures didn't seem right to me ( especially the $127,000 figure) so I check the official government site www.statcan.gc.ca/eng/startThat site shows: - Household income in Canada in 2018 $71,011 per year. - Federal and provincial income tax and federal payroll tax was 16.6% - Size of household in Canada is 2.5 (same as USA) That would make gross household income of CA$ 85,145 Canadian dollars, or US$ 60,757 I didn't check any of their other numbers but I would be suspicious about them. ------------------------------------------- Average is measured three ways; You can use "average" to paint different pictures. Mean: Total all the numbers and divide by the count Median: Sort all the numbers from low to high, and pick the middle number Mode: The most frequently occurring number in a group of numbers
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 19, 2020 16:56:46 GMT -5
If it weren't for the fact that my condo mortgage payment is only $301 a month I would be in Canada, profiting from the favorable exchange rate for my American pension and the elimination of most of my insurance bill. But I am comfortable and with my family mostly in town. And I like the climate and Las Vegas community. You wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. That’s home for you. I could imagine not many are lucky enough to afford to live in Vegas. I have a friend that takes medications for an organ transplant that he says is the same type of medicine they give for HIV. He seems to tolerate the stuff well. There used to be a stigma with HIV but it seems like a lesser evil than a lot of other illnesses. Even CoVid19. I was watching some YouTube videos of Freddy Mercury recently and it made feel so sad because he was so talented and didn’t deserve HIV any more than many of us. There wasn’t much they could do for it back then. Can’t listen to bohemian rhapsody without wanting to cry. I have a lot of contacts in the HIV community here. A visit to the HIV clinic waiting room is nothing less than an eye opener. I occasionally wonder if the doctor who infected me is doing as well as I am. I don't believe he is -- but don't make that any of my business.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 19, 2020 17:05:51 GMT -5
I am more fortunate than a LOT of people here. I am over 65, so Medicare Part A pays 80% of my hospital bills. But this is what I do pay for each month. (1) $268.00 for Part B Medicare - doctor visits minus 20% copay. (2) $150.00 for Plan F, which covers the 20% of hospital and doctor visit bills(3) $83.00 for Prescription coverage - minus copays (4) $40.00 approx. for prescription copaysI am HIV positive, so I qualify for a program that pays the prescription copay on HIV medications, which amounted to a hefty $850 a month until I got the coverage to pay that cost for me. Without the hubby's VA disability picking up the leftovers, we'd be strapped paying his medical expenses. As it stands, we pay $59 monthly for Part B. Prescriptions are free if we get them from the VA. I have no medical insurance. Luckily I'm doing well. Two years to go till medicare kicks in. Most personal bankruptcies in the US are for medical expenses. Speaks well for the quality of life in the model democracy.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 17:06:46 GMT -5
You wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. That’s home for you. I could imagine not many are lucky enough to afford to live in Vegas. I have a friend that takes medications for an organ transplant that he says is the same type of medicine they give for HIV. He seems to tolerate the stuff well. There used to be a stigma with HIV but it seems like a lesser evil than a lot of other illnesses. Even CoVid19. I was watching some YouTube videos of Freddy Mercury recently and it made feel so sad because he was so talented and didn’t deserve HIV any more than many of us. There wasn’t much they could do for it back then. Can’t listen to bohemian rhapsody without wanting to cry. I have a lot of contacts in the HIV community here. A visit to the HIV clinic waiting room is nothing less than an eye opener. I occasionally wonder if the doctor who infected me is doing as well as I am. I don't believe he is -- but don't make that any of my business. pardon me for asking but did you sue the b@stard doctor that infected you?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 19, 2020 17:18:08 GMT -5
I have a lot of contacts in the HIV community here. A visit to the HIV clinic waiting room is nothing less than an eye opener. I occasionally wonder if the doctor who infected me is doing as well as I am. I don't believe he is -- but don't make that any of my business. pardon me for asking but did you sue the b@stard doctor that infected you? No -- but not because he wouldn't have. It was 18 years between infection and diagnosis. I had long forgotten his name. But there is a three year statute of limitations for prosecuting that. But it was five years after my detection that anyone bothered to tell me that the 3 years statute of limitations only starts at "detection". By then I was healthy, my wife was not infected, and the single consequence of concern with my condition was the cost of living disability free. I decided I had much better things to use my energy on.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 19, 2020 17:56:52 GMT -5
It should be fine to have for-profit health providers, but the government should pay for the health care if its citizens. Is that how it works in Canada? The health insurance part is where the dysfunction is, I would suggest. Government doesn't really pay for anything that they don't take from someone else, because governments don't generate revenue, they collect it... Nothings free.
Canadians pay for health care — though not necessarily their own health care. The amount varies a lot, depending on who you are. Canadians at the bottom of the income distribution don’t pay very much — $471 a year . Those in the middle average $6,000-$7,000 a year while those in the top 10 per cent of the income distribution average a whopping $39,123 a year on health care. If you do it by family type — single person, couple, single mom, two-parent family two kids, and so on — it also varies a lot, from $3,994 to $12,410 a year. Where do these numbers come from? The Fraser Institute’s researchers — Feixue Ren, Milagros Palacios and Bacchus Barua — looked at how much people paid in taxes each year and then assumed that 23.5 per cent of that money went to health care. How come 23.5 per cent? Because that’s the best available estimate of how much of the tax revenues Canadian governments haul in is spent on health care. linkThe Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) believes Canada spent approximately $228 billion on health care in 2016. That’s 11.1 per cent of Canada’s entire GDP and $6,299 for every Canadian resident. Canada spent $5,543 per resident, more than the United Kingdom ($4,986) and Australia ($5,187) but less than Sweden ($6,245) and far less than the United States ($11,126). The “average” Canadian family, consisting of two adults and two children, earning about $127,000, will pay about $12,000 a year for public health care. link
However, -Dan, -one does need to keep in mind where your information is coming from, -the National Post.
The National Post is a Canadian newspaper.
<excerpts> When the Post launched, its editorial stance was conservative.
It advocated a "unite-the-right" movement to create a viable alternative to the Liberal government of Jean Chrétien, and supported the Canadian Alliance.
So perhaps one might get a different view from the people who have benefited from the Canadian national health care system.
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Post by iam on Apr 19, 2020 19:12:30 GMT -5
You wouldn’t want to be anywhere else. That’s home for you. I could imagine not many are lucky enough to afford to live in Vegas. I have a friend that takes medications for an organ transplant that he says is the same type of medicine they give for HIV. He seems to tolerate the stuff well. There used to be a stigma with HIV but it seems like a lesser evil than a lot of other illnesses. Even CoVid19. I was watching some YouTube videos of Freddy Mercury recently and it made feel so sad because he was so talented and didn’t deserve HIV any more than many of us. There wasn’t much they could do for it back then. Can’t listen to bohemian rhapsody without wanting to cry. I have a lot of contacts in the HIV community here. A visit to the HIV clinic waiting room is nothing less than an eye opener. I occasionally wonder if the doctor who infected me is doing as well as I am. I don't believe he is -- but don't make that any of my business. The doctor should be paying for your medications and a whole lot more imo.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 19, 2020 19:18:27 GMT -5
I have a lot of contacts in the HIV community here. A visit to the HIV clinic waiting room is nothing less than an eye opener. I occasionally wonder if the doctor who infected me is doing as well as I am. I don't believe he is -- but don't make that any of my business. The doctor should be paying for your medications and a whole lot more imo. Well, I expect he's paid a lot for having been high on meth while treating a heart attack patient in the emergency room. I'm happier being me.
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Post by snow on Apr 19, 2020 19:39:54 GMT -5
Government doesn't really pay for anything that they don't take from someone else, because governments don't generate revenue, they collect it... Nothings free.
Canadians pay for health care — though not necessarily their own health care. The amount varies a lot, depending on who you are. Canadians at the bottom of the income distribution don’t pay very much — $471 a year . Those in the middle average $6,000-$7,000 a year while those in the top 10 per cent of the income distribution average a whopping $39,123 a year on health care. If you do it by family type — single person, couple, single mom, two-parent family two kids, and so on — it also varies a lot, from $3,994 to $12,410 a year. Where do these numbers come from? The Fraser Institute’s researchers — Feixue Ren, Milagros Palacios and Bacchus Barua — looked at how much people paid in taxes each year and then assumed that 23.5 per cent of that money went to health care. How come 23.5 per cent? Because that’s the best available estimate of how much of the tax revenues Canadian governments haul in is spent on health care. linkThe Canadian Institute for Health Information (CIHI) believes Canada spent approximately $228 billion on health care in 2016. That’s 11.1 per cent of Canada’s entire GDP and $6,299 for every Canadian resident. Canada spent $5,543 per resident, more than the United Kingdom ($4,986) and Australia ($5,187) but less than Sweden ($6,245) and far less than the United States ($11,126). The “average” Canadian family, consisting of two adults and two children, earning about $127,000, will pay about $12,000 a year for public health care. link
However, -Dan, -one does need to keep in mind where your information is coming from, -the National Post.
The National Post is a Canadian newspaper.
<excerpts> When the Post launched, its editorial stance was conservative.
It advocated a "unite-the-right" movement to create a viable alternative to the Liberal government of Jean Chrétien, and supported the Canadian Alliance.
So perhaps one might get a different view from the people who have benefited from the Canadian national health care system.
I can tell you this. I would never trade what I have in Canada for healthcare with what is offered in the US.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 19, 2020 19:45:25 GMT -5
Government doesn't really pay for anything that they don't take from someone else, because governments don't generate revenue, they collect it... Nothings free. That's true. I wish all voters around the world would realise that. Governments have the capacity to borrow but that's just spending the next generation's productivity. Many voters keep pushing their governments to spend until borrowing reaches capacity. Then they go through a period of "austerity". They get sick of that after a few years and elect another over-spending government. And so it goes on. Balanced budgets should be considered the norm. When a budget is in deficit, there should be a good explanation and a plan to bring it back into balance. That's why NZ has the FRA which I have already provided you with a link.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 19, 2020 21:15:23 GMT -5
Government doesn't really pay for anything that they don't take from someone else, because governments don't generate revenue, they collect it... Nothings free. That's true. I wish all voters around the world would realise that. Governments have the capacity to borrow but that's just spending the next generation's productivity. Many voters keep pushing their governments to spend until borrowing reaches capacity. Then they go through a period of "austerity". They get sick of that after a few years and elect another over-spending government. And so it goes on. Balanced budgets should be considered the norm. When a budget is in deficit, there should be a good explanation and a plan to bring it back into balance. I think that we realize that the government is NOT some entity standing outside of ourselves, but rather that the government is OURWSELVES.
Since that is true, -we should think seriously about how WE spend OUR money.
In order to understand that we need to think about what are our priorities are & then pay attention to what is happening by that government ALL of the time instead of only when something like this world shattering event happens!
When things are going well people tend to not pay much attention to what is going on except every four years when there is an election!
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Post by Dan on Apr 19, 2020 21:31:32 GMT -5
However, -Dan, -one does need to keep in mind where your information is coming from, -the National Post.
The National Post is a Canadian newspaper.
<excerpts> When the Post launched, its editorial stance was conservative.
It advocated a "unite-the-right" movement to create a viable alternative to the Liberal government of Jean Chrétien, and supported the Canadian Alliance.
So perhaps one might get a different view from the people who have benefited from the Canadian national health care system.
I can tell you this. I would never trade what I have in Canada for healthcare with what is offered in the US.
I wasn't denigrating the Canadian system, just making the observation that nothing is free.. And I'd agree that American healthcare while good, is also expensive and litigious. Prior to Obama Care, I was paying Aetna $2226 per year for a quarter million dollar hospitalization policy, with no deductible. Post Obama Care, insurance just for myself went up to $3480 per year, with a whopping $8000 deductible. So the government stepping into healthcare didn't do me any favors.
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Post by fixit on Apr 19, 2020 22:01:11 GMT -5
I can tell you this. I would never trade what I have in Canada for healthcare with what is offered in the US. I wasn't denigrating the Canadian system, just making the observation that nothing is free.. And I'd agree that American healthcare while good, is also expensive and litigious. Prior to Obama Care, I was paying Aetna $2226 per year for a quarter million dollar hospitalization policy, with no deductible. Post Obama Care, insurance just for myself went up to $3480 per year, with a whopping $8000 deductible. So the government stepping into healthcare didn't do me any favors.
That's interesting, and helps explain the pushback against Obamacare. It seems the government tweaks things around the edges. It makes no sense that the US is the only developed county without universal health care. I don't understand why Americans don't expect it of their government. It's affordable if done properly.
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Post by fixit on Apr 19, 2020 22:06:29 GMT -5
That's true. I wish all voters around the world would realise that. Governments have the capacity to borrow but that's just spending the next generation's productivity. Many voters keep pushing their governments to spend until borrowing reaches capacity. Then they go through a period of "austerity". They get sick of that after a few years and elect another over-spending government. And so it goes on. Balanced budgets should be considered the norm. When a budget is in deficit, there should be a good explanation and a plan to bring it back into balance. That's why NZ has the FRA which I have already provided you with a link. The FRA is great but I'm afraid the COVID-19 crisis will be used as an excuse to ditch it going forward and we'll go the same way as most other countries. Obviously we'll be living on borrowed money for the short term, but I think austerity will be required to bring the budget back into balance at some point.
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Post by matisse on Apr 19, 2020 22:49:09 GMT -5
I can tell you this. I would never trade what I have in Canada for healthcare with what is offered in the US.
I wasn't denigrating the Canadian system, just making the observation that nothing is free.. And I'd agree that American healthcare while good, is also expensive and litigious. Prior to Obama Care, I was paying Aetna $2226 per year for a quarter million dollar hospitalization policy, with no deductible. Post Obama Care, insurance just for myself went up to $3480 per year, with a whopping $8000 deductible. So the government stepping into healthcare didn't do me any favors.
Thank the Republican Party. They have done everything in their power to sabotage the Affordable Care Act. The Act was intended to be refined after it was launched, not have the legs kicked out from under it. Your conclusion is exactly the one the Republicans wanted you to come to.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2020 22:57:03 GMT -5
I wasn't denigrating the Canadian system, just making the observation that nothing is free.. And I'd agree that American healthcare while good, is also expensive and litigious. Prior to Obama Care, I was paying Aetna $2226 per year for a quarter million dollar hospitalization policy, with no deductible. Post Obama Care, insurance just for myself went up to $3480 per year, with a whopping $8000 deductible. So the government stepping into healthcare didn't do me any favors.
Thank the Republican Party. They have done everything in their power to sabotage the Affordable Care Act. The Act was intended to be refined after it was launched, not have the legs kicked out from under it. Your conclusion is exactly the one the Republicans wanted you to come to. sorry obummercare was never "intended" to be real "health care" it was meant to not be used except for cases of "catastrophic care"...I.E money goes into the system and none comes out...great scheme...
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 19, 2020 23:09:20 GMT -5
I wasn't denigrating the Canadian system, just making the observation that nothing is free..
I frankly get quite sick of Americans telling Canadians and NOTHING IS FREE. That's precisely why Canadians PAY FOR THEIR HEALTH CARE the way they do. They figured it out for themselves. What Canadians should be telling Americans is that Americans are paying exorbitant profits to private interests who have no more concern for your health care than to sort your money and pass some of it on to the people who are actually caring for your health. The private banks and insurance companies are not your "government of, by and for" the people -- YOUR government has left decisions about what health care you should have and how much you should pay for it to your employers and private corporations. That's how medical care got provided to slaves, back then. Of course. Obama Care became a fancy cover term to disguise the fact that what it actually did was give the private insurance companies a mandate to provide coverage -- and carry on deciding how much they would charge and how much of it they would keep to themselves. [/div][/quote] No, your government just made more sure that the corporate bankroll of your health care dollars has more access to your otherwise dispensable income.
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Post by fixit on Apr 26, 2020 17:07:50 GMT -5
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 26, 2020 17:15:30 GMT -5
So glad we live in Canada 🇨🇦 Everyone is covered . Even though my surgery is on hold . We are good with our health system . Plus covered by the City of Calgary benefits It even covers us in any country . We don’t pay a cent . Sadly only those who want to learn will .
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Post by xna on Apr 26, 2020 17:42:31 GMT -5
Why the USA can't afford a national healthcare program.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 26, 2020 17:48:23 GMT -5
We disagree totally . You have another option if you are rich . That’s ok , if they can afford it let them go to private clinics . Example my medication alone is $8000 a year . I pay $4 dollars . The surgeries had in our family is expensive . Wait times are different , nothing about being rich . I had a endoscopy and CT and ultra sound on Thursday , I meet with my specialists on Monday .
My brother is a quadriplegic , that bill is in millions . He has to be medically transferred by a medical plane . He cannot take a regular flight ✈️ He goes back to Vancouver 4 times a year . More surgeries coming . He was life flighted to Vancouver the night of the accident . Over 1 million , he paid nothing , still doesn’t . I am not sure why people are scared of our health care . My mom has Parkinson’s , we don’t get billed by a doctor for anything . My brothers wheelchair was over $5000 . No bill ! I am being monitored right now because of pandemic . My son-in-law has AIDS no money required . His meds over $1000 per month , no money . My daughter has cirrhosis of the liver , they pay nothing . We are good ! We still have money and don’t have to pay for heart surgery and file for bankruptcy . My dad was handicapped we paid nothing for his hip transplant . That when terribly wrong . After his surgery he was left with one hip . No money 💴 Why do people think 🤔 it’s so bad . It’s not
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 26, 2020 17:54:34 GMT -5
Forgot ! All of us have had extended psych accommodations no charge . 3 months once . No payment required . But let’s close this with a humorous story . I had to go to GF Strong in Vancouver to learn how to look after my bro . So day 1 I am learning how to feed him . Worked that out . We watched a hockey game that night and a nurse came in to visit (hockey break) 😆 I asked what time I had to be back in the morning to learn how to transfer him . So at 7 I am there with his Starbucks coffee and ready to roll . Nurse comes in , I am feeling pretty good and relaxed . Her first words were , so he has to wear a catheter . It has to be changed everyday . I am down with that . They pull the curtains for privacy . I step out . He yells at me , WTH are you doing , you have seen one before and you cannot learn on the other side of the curtain . Get back in here . Modesty was over !!!!! However during this pandemic I chose to make amends , he made his . So this pandemic has brought us back together . We have lived many lives , been to places we didn’t chose . Some awesome some not good . But I got my bro back !!! He said I love you 🤟 I cried .
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Post by Dan on Apr 26, 2020 18:08:57 GMT -5
I wasn't denigrating the Canadian system, just making the observation that nothing is free..
I frankly get quite sick of Americans telling Canadians and NOTHING IS FREE. That's precisely why Canadians PAY FOR THEIR HEALTH CARE the way they do. They figured it out for themselves. What Canadians should be telling Americans is that Americans are paying exorbitant profits to private interests who have no more concern for your health care than to sort your money and pass some of it on to the people who are actually caring for your health. The private banks and insurance companies are not your "government of, by and for" the people -- YOUR government has left decisions about what health care you should have and how much you should pay for it to your employers and private corporations. That's how medical care got provided to slaves, back then. Of course. Obama Care became a fancy cover term to disguise the fact that what it actually did was give the private insurance companies a mandate to provide coverage -- and carry on deciding how much they would charge and how much of it they would keep to themselves.
All true, US healthcare is a mess, even Obama said he wasn't satisfied with ObamaCare and preferred a single payer system. But nothing is free, someone has got to pay, whether it be directly or through taxation.
One big difference is how governments choose to appropriate revenues. Canadians & Americans pay similar taxes, but Canada spends 1.31% of GDP on defense, about $20 billion annually, while the USA spends 3.4% of their GDP on defense, to the tune of $686.1 billion in 2019. If we cut defense spending to match Canada, we'd have well over a half trillion dollars to spend every year on healthcare. But of course, we would also run the risk of someone bombing the hell out of us
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Post by xna on Apr 26, 2020 18:20:02 GMT -5
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