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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 20:46:07 GMT -5
31- Mr. Townsend's Testimony drive.google.com/file/d/1-KakF9axQxqTLiaZ7KkuBdqCzwexe9HD/view?usp=sharingQuote, I became aware of the strange behaviour of the workers in the Maritime Provinces. There were so many things happening concurrently, that it was difficult to analyze the situation. There were people leaving the "truth," conventions were changing places with the people from former grounds leaving the way and it appeared that the workers were out of control. It seemed to be a virtual orgy, with groups of workers disappearing on weekends and being seen at various motels! Finally, a number of workers, including Absolom Abott, Staccey Bryanton, Doug Sproule and several sister workers left the work. Several brother and sister workers married shortly therafter. Unquote There's much more in his testimony including a pregnant worker -- CSA is not the workers' only sexual immorality, and never has been right from Irvine onward
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 20:46:41 GMT -5
Abusive churches are not new
lt is tempting to think of extreme authoritarian sects as a symptom of modern intellectual and religious aliments. We live in a complex world where personal security is a rare commodity. Pick up any national paper or magazine and you will find articles on stress, marital problems, substance abuse, and the increase of gang-related violence. Contemporary preachers warn us that materialism and consumerism draw us away from God; we have become an ego-centered society that shuns the simple values and simple faith accepted by citizens one hundred years ago. lt is no wonder then that immorality in the church itself is becoming more visible. It is no wonder that people, beset by anxieties and confused by scandal, should find shelter in the more structured environment of an authoritarian church.
Ronald Enroth, Churches That Abuse, page 53
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 20:48:56 GMT -5
There is another "nameless" group, much larger than the one just discussed, which also engages in various forms of spiritual and physical abuse. Very little has been written about this obscure worldwide church which is said to have as many as one hundred thousand members. lt was founded at the turn of the century by a Scottish coal miner named William lrvine who was later joined by Edward Cooney, an lrishman. In the early days, the group was referred to as the "Cooneyites," and later became known both as the "Two-byTwo' s" (because its itinerant preachers or "workers" travel in pairs) and the "Nameless House Sect." The group deplores denominationalism and "man-made" doctrines. lt identifies with no name and claims only to follow Jesus Christ. 1
Former members, who often refer to it as "the Truth," claim that a great number of children raised in the movement are subjected to stern discipline from an early age in order that their "wills can be broken." Ex-members report that infants as young as three months old are swatted. One said that
fussing of small children is an unacceptable disruption of the meeting, so children must be taught quickly and firmly how to behave and be silent. Children are expected to behave as miniature adults and whatever must be done to achieve this end is done. One common discipline is to expect children to eat everything on their plates, to train them for the task of being in the "work." Forcing children to eat is considered part of breaking their wills and teaching them to submit to parental authority. If they refuse or cannot, the workers view it as rebellion. 2
Like many other abusive churches, the Two-by-Two' s impose a restrictive and rigorous life-style on the membership. Women adherents shun makeup and wear long, uncut hair wrapped tightly in buns on the tops of their heads. Jewelry is proscribed, while plain dresses. are the norm. Slacks, shorts, and sleeveless blouses are forbidden in public. They submit to the men of the group who tend to wear dark-colored clothes and carry black-covered King James Versions of the Bible. Marriages are performed by civil authorities only, since church "workers" do not register with state officials.3
Conformity to a strict life-style is expected of all children and young people in the Truth. They are discouraged from participating in after-school sports and other social activities. Their circle of friends does not extend beyond the group. They often grow up ignorant and unaware of current affairs around them. One woman remembers taking her young son to the doctor who was astonished that the boy knew nothing about Big Bird or other Sesame Street characters. Another woman relates that her son' s kindergarten teacher was shocked that he hadn't ever heard of Easter ... [most Two-by-Two' s do not observe Christmas or Easter]. This lack of awareness, culturally, religiously, politically, and socially, severely stunts their perceptions of the world around them. . . . Emotional withdrawal and social isolation are typical responses among children in the Truth which are carried forward into adulthood. 4
Ronald Enroth, Churches That Abuse, pp 133-135
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2019 22:22:06 GMT -5
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Post by sunshine on May 4, 2019 1:52:09 GMT -5
There is another "nameless" group, much larger than the one just discussed, which also engages in various forms of spiritual and physical abuse. Very little has been written about this obscure worldwide church which is said to have as many as one hundred thousand members. lt was founded at the turn of the century by a Scottish coal miner named William lrvine who was later joined by Edward Cooney, an lrishman. In the early days, the group was referred to as the "Cooneyites," and later became known both as the "Two-byTwo' s" (because its itinerant preachers or "workers" travel in pairs) and the "Nameless House Sect." The group deplores denominationalism and "man-made" doctrines. lt identifies with no name and claims only to follow Jesus Christ. 1 Former members, who often refer to it as "the Truth," claim that a great number of children raised in the movement are subjected to stern discipline from an early age in order that their "wills can be broken." Ex-members report that infants as young as three months old are swatted. One said that fussing of small children is an unacceptable disruption of the meeting, so children must be taught quickly and firmly how to behave and be silent. Children are expected to behave as miniature adults and whatever must be done to achieve this end is done. One common discipline is to expect children to eat everything on their plates, to train them for the task of being in the "work." Forcing children to eat is considered part of breaking their wills and teaching them to submit to parental authority. If they refuse or cannot, the workers view it as rebellion. 2 Like many other abusive churches, the Two-by-Two' s impose a restrictive and rigorous life-style on the membership. Women adherents shun makeup and wear long, uncut hair wrapped tightly in buns on the tops of their heads. Jewelry is proscribed, while plain dresses. are the norm. Slacks, shorts, and sleeveless blouses are forbidden in public. They submit to the men of the group who tend to wear dark-colored clothes and carry black-covered King James Versions of the Bible. Marriages are performed by civil authorities only, since church "workers" do not register with state officials.3 Conformity to a strict life-style is expected of all children and young people in the Truth. They are discouraged from participating in after-school sports and other social activities. Their circle of friends does not extend beyond the group. They often grow up ignorant and unaware of current affairs around them. One woman remembers taking her young son to the doctor who was astonished that the boy knew nothing about Big Bird or other Sesame Street characters. Another woman relates that her son' s kindergarten teacher was shocked that he hadn't ever heard of Easter ... [most Two-by-Two' s do not observe Christmas or Easter]. This lack of awareness, culturally, religiously, politically, and socially, severely stunts their perceptions of the world around them. . . . Emotional withdrawal and social isolation are typical responses among children in the Truth which are carried forward into adulthood. 4 Ronald Enroth, Churches That Abuse, pp 133-135 I'm not sure what time period or country this is describing, but the only really accurate "rule" listed that applies now, here in the US, is that women never wear jewelry. All the other stuff mentioned is pretty optional and a matter of choice or habit.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 6:56:00 GMT -5
31- Mr. Townsend's Testimony drive.google.com/file/d/1-KakF9axQxqTLiaZ7KkuBdqCzwexe9HD/view?usp=sharingQuote, I became aware of the strange behaviour of the workers in the Maritime Provinces. There were so many things happening concurrently, that it was difficult to analyze the situation. There were people leaving the "truth," conventions were changing places with the people from former grounds leaving the way and it appeared that the workers were out of control. It seemed to be a virtual orgy, with groups of workers disappearing on weekends and being seen at various motels! Finally, a number of workers, including Absolom Abott, Staccey Bryanton, Doug Sproule and several sister workers left the work. Several brother and sister workers married shortly therafter. Unquote There's much more in his testimony including a pregnant worker -- CSA is not the workers' only sexual immorality, and never has been right from Irvine onward Mr Townsend also said in this testimony Quote We were also warned by sister workers that Joyce Disher should not sleep on the same floor as Carson Cowan when they were at our house . I Don't think the reason was that Joyce was snoring ...
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 8:27:44 GMT -5
"'I'm not sure what time period or country this is describing, but the only really accurate "rule" listed that applies now, here in the US, is that women never wear jewelry. All the other stuff mentioned is pretty optional and a matter of choice or habit."
And recently in gospel meetings I still heard workers preach how their church is "the same yesterday, today and forver." Maybe that false message is just historically habitual, just as it has been historically false.
Edit -Ronald Enroth also wrote, "Very little has been written
about this obscure worldwide church which is said to have as
many as one hundred thousand members."
I have seen guestimates anywhere up to a quarter million in what has been written about "the Truth." And I have copy of a head worker's local address list that includes EVERY member - workers can state exactly how many members they still have after the writings about their church became well known outside of their church with The Secret Sect published in 1982, but workers do not tell even members how many members their church has at any time in 2x2 history. In fact the "little meetings" on Sundays and Wednesdays are used by workers to claim "few" members who have ever "found the Truth." The confusion to any onlookers is a planned deception by workers historically.
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Post by nathan on May 4, 2019 8:40:01 GMT -5
"'I'm not sure what time period or country this is describing, but the only really accurate "rule" listed that applies now, here in the US, is that women never wear jewelry. All the other stuff mentioned is pretty optional and a matter of choice or habit." And recently in gospel meetings I still heard workers preach how their church is "the same yesterday, today and forver." Maybe that false message is just historically habitual, just as it has been historically false. No, it NOT false at all. There has always been Jesus True church 2x2 believers through the centuries!
professing.proboards.com/thread/25658/nathan-time-line-irvine-founder
Jesus Christ New Testament teachings are the same yesterday, today and forever. That was how William Irvine and the Faith Mission converted John Long/Methodist to preach Faith Mission 2x2 Faith lines in 1898.
From John Long Journal
Study Matthew 10: William Irvine/Faith Mission preacher, Fred Hughes/Faith Mission preacher and John Long to preach/going Faith Lines. John Long converted to preach the Faith lines in 1898.
*** William Irvine asked John Long "When did God changed this?" John Long replied, "I supposed it has never changed. " (ref. Doug Parker) *** William Irvine was discipline by the Faith Mission in 1898.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 9:23:02 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 12:13:43 GMT -5
William Irvine, "The word 'gospel' means God in a man speaking."
“The gospel is the New Testament ministry of the apostles and the meeting in the home.” Jack Carroll 1955
Eldon Tenniswood, "The gospel is the ministry of the workers and the meeting in the home. You must attend all meetings. That is part of our gospel. You can only hear the gospel through the spoken word of our workers. Perhaps then you can be saved.
Eldon Tenniswood - Los Angeles, CA - March 10, 1985 Special Meeting. - “Most of our new converts come from the traditional church. That clearly shows us how lacking the church is and it is up to us to show them the True, Narrow Way. Our gospel is a Way of Life.
Dick Hare, elder - February 17, 1985 Millbury, Massachusetts, Fellowship meeting, “You must attend all meetings. This is part of our gospel. You can only hear the gospel through the spoken word of our workers. Perhaps then you can be saved.”
Rose Johnson "Anything a worker says is the gospel."
Leo Stancliff, 1981 - "My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ. But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry, you don't have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit."
Gordon Winkler,Glenn Valley Convention, August 12, 1990 - "Peter and John, when they were telling the gospel story, they were living the gospel first of all. They were men who, like Jesus, had given up everything that they had; given it to the poor, and had gone out as homeless, stranger preachers for the gospels sake. And I just love to think of this - these basic truths that are so vital in our salvation, and have stayed the same from the beginning of time. There's no other way, there's no other way. "
“Christ suffered for us, leaving us an example that ye should follow His steps. Jesus left those stepsmarking God’s perfect highway and today we are not looking for anything else!” Lloyd NjosMedford, OR 1978
(The real problem is that the workers and friends DON’T KNOW what the gospel is. They think the gospel is their method of living and preaching.) VIA Admin.
The gospel according to the 12 apostles
1 Corintians 15:
15:1 Now I want to make clear for you,1 brothers and sisters,2 the gospel that I preached to you, that you received and on which you stand, 15:2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold firmly to the message I preached to you – unless you believed in vain. 15:3 For I passed on to you as of first importance3 what I also received –
that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he was raised4 on the third day according to the scriptures,
15:5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 15:7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 15:8 Last of all, as though to one born at the wrong time, he appeared to me also. 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me has not been in vain. In fact, I worked harder than all of them – yet not I, but the grace of God with me. 15:11 Whether then it was I or they, this is the way we preach and this is the way you believed.
The curse to hell of anyone who preaches another gospel, including 2x2 workers and their followers according to Galatians one.
1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are following a different gospel – 1:7 not that there really is another gospel, but there are some who are disturbing you and wanting to distort the gospel of Christ. 1:8 But even if we (or an angel from heaven) should preach a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be condemned to hell! 1:9 As we have said before, and now I say again, if any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, let him be condemned to hell!
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Post by snow on May 4, 2019 14:18:32 GMT -5
There is another "nameless" group, much larger than the one just discussed, which also engages in various forms of spiritual and physical abuse. Very little has been written about this obscure worldwide church which is said to have as many as one hundred thousand members. lt was founded at the turn of the century by a Scottish coal miner named William lrvine who was later joined by Edward Cooney, an lrishman. In the early days, the group was referred to as the "Cooneyites," and later became known both as the "Two-byTwo' s" (because its itinerant preachers or "workers" travel in pairs) and the "Nameless House Sect." The group deplores denominationalism and "man-made" doctrines. lt identifies with no name and claims only to follow Jesus Christ. 1 Former members, who often refer to it as "the Truth," claim that a great number of children raised in the movement are subjected to stern discipline from an early age in order that their "wills can be broken." Ex-members report that infants as young as three months old are swatted. One said that fussing of small children is an unacceptable disruption of the meeting, so children must be taught quickly and firmly how to behave and be silent. Children are expected to behave as miniature adults and whatever must be done to achieve this end is done. One common discipline is to expect children to eat everything on their plates, to train them for the task of being in the "work." Forcing children to eat is considered part of breaking their wills and teaching them to submit to parental authority. If they refuse or cannot, the workers view it as rebellion. 2 Like many other abusive churches, the Two-by-Two' s impose a restrictive and rigorous life-style on the membership. Women adherents shun makeup and wear long, uncut hair wrapped tightly in buns on the tops of their heads. Jewelry is proscribed, while plain dresses. are the norm. Slacks, shorts, and sleeveless blouses are forbidden in public. They submit to the men of the group who tend to wear dark-colored clothes and carry black-covered King James Versions of the Bible. Marriages are performed by civil authorities only, since church "workers" do not register with state officials.3 Conformity to a strict life-style is expected of all children and young people in the Truth. They are discouraged from participating in after-school sports and other social activities. Their circle of friends does not extend beyond the group. They often grow up ignorant and unaware of current affairs around them. One woman remembers taking her young son to the doctor who was astonished that the boy knew nothing about Big Bird or other Sesame Street characters. Another woman relates that her son' s kindergarten teacher was shocked that he hadn't ever heard of Easter ... [most Two-by-Two' s do not observe Christmas or Easter]. This lack of awareness, culturally, religiously, politically, and socially, severely stunts their perceptions of the world around them. . . . Emotional withdrawal and social isolation are typical responses among children in the Truth which are carried forward into adulthood. 4 Ronald Enroth, Churches That Abuse, pp 133-135 Just to be fair, and not to excuse, I don't think the 2x2's were more stern disciplinarians than the 'world'. Back when I was growing up, in the 50's and 60's pretty much everyone thought nothing of strapping a kid and doing whatever they could to have kids that were 'seen but not heard'. That was the norm of the times. Adults have been trying to control kids for a long long time and it's only in more recent decades that we've started to understand beating the kid is not a good way of showing then how to be loving caring adults. I wouldn't say that the reason why my parents hit me was because they were trying to 'break my spirit'. But I suppose you might be right in my father's case. It might explain why he said what he did to my future husband when we got married. He told my husband to be that I was a strong willed woman that must be handled with a stern hand. My husband actually told me that my father said it and when I confronted my father about it later when I left my husband for domestic violence, he did admit telling him that. He also suggested that I should go back to my husband and be more submissive and I probably wouldn't get hit anymore. But again, men did believe they had the right to hit their wives that they felt were 'out of control', back then. Police couldn't charge men with domestic violence unless they were reported by the wife. That didn't change until fairly recently and is still the case in some places. So, I'm not sure how much of the disciplining was a 2x2 practice, or more just what the world felt was the thing to do back then. I don't think they do it as much as they used to, and likely no more than other fundamentalist Christians still do with their kids. There are still 19 states where corporal punishment is still legal and 48 states where it is legal in private schools. Private schools are predominantly religious schools. After all the bible does say not to spare the rod. www.nytimes.com/2018/12/13/us/corporal-punishment-school-tennessee.html
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 15:25:14 GMT -5
I remember workers frequently preaching to parents in meetings where I was present about the "necessity" to "break the spirit" of their children. And such means as unjustified punishments, unequal treatment of siblings and the like were recommended by those workers to make one kid "an example" to the other kids. And those worker-recommended child-rearing methods were BEGUN by my parents before a child was one year old.
My parents did not break any spirit in their kids by following the ignorant and cruel advice of workers who had no idea what having their own kids entailed. Instead he and my mother kept the workers' rule in the manner workers recommended, and convinced every one of their kids that we kids were an unwanted burden to our parents and all adults in the 2x2 church too. And in his latter few years of life, ten years after his unjust excommunication for failing to force my stepmother to attend worker's meetings (she saw right through the workers' cadging lifestyle and detested them) my dad literally pined himself to death over what he did to his kids.
My parents kids attended public schools where they saw much more loving treatment of other kids by their parents - I adopted and was received as such by a school chum's mom and dad and they invited me (never forced me) to their church where I learned that children were valued very highly by all its members. So you don't need to try telling me about 2x2 child rearing being even similar to secular or other church families.
It does not matter to me presently that you may have had a different experience in your location or generation. I have received countless testimonies very similar to mine from former 2x2s of my own generation and location. All I can tell you is that the workers still in that location preach the same Biblically illiterate messages in their recent meetings as they did when I was a child - maybe you had a couple of odd ball workers that gave different messages to your generation in your location.
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Post by snow on May 4, 2019 15:38:16 GMT -5
I remember workers frequently preaching to parents in meetings where I was present about the "necessity" to "break the spirit" of their children. And such means as unjustified punishments, unequal treatment of siblings and the like were recommended by those workers to make one kid "an example" to the other kids. And those worker-recommended child-rearing methods were BEGUN by my parents before a child was one year old. My parents did not break any spirit in their kids by following the ignorant and cruel advice of workers who had no idea what having their own kids entailed. Instead he and my mother kept the workers' rule in the manner workers recommended, and convinced every one of their kids that we kids were an unwanted burden to our parents and all adults in the 2x2 church too. And in his latter few years of life, ten years after his unjust excommunication for failing to force my stepmother to attend worker's meetings (she saw right through the workers' cadging lifestyle and detested them) my dad literally pined himself to death over what he did to his kids. My parents kids attended public schools where they saw much more loving treatment of other kids by their parents - I adopted and was received as such by a school chum's mom and dad and they invited me (never forced me) to their church where I learned that children were valued very highly by all its members. So you don't need to try telling me about 2x2 child rearing being even similar to secular or other church families. Can I ask what years you are referring to. My experience was in the 50's and 60's, but I never heard the workers say 'break the kids spirit' or 'use another child as an example'. I was brought up in Western Canada so maybe there were regional differences?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 15:44:07 GMT -5
Have a reread - I added some regarding your possible different experience. And no, I will not confine our experience to a particular decade because I still heard workers preach the same stuff very recently. As you may know, workers HAVE to preach what their overseer dictates or they could find themselves on the street, barred from all 2x2 homes and starving to death in short order, which does historically indicate why some locations hear different messages from workers - the overseers are often bitter enemies of each other. And again I see "regional differences" cited for a church that has traditionally preached that it is "the same yesterday, today and forever." If THAT were ever true of "the Truth" church, there should be absolutely NO regional differences - "forever."
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Post by snow on May 4, 2019 16:44:29 GMT -5
Have a reread - I added some regarding your possible different experience. And no, I will not confine our experience to a particular decade because I still heard workers preach the same stuff very recently. As you may know, workers HAVE to preach what their overseer dictates or they could find themselves on the street, barred from all 2x2 homes and starving to death in short order, which does historically indicate why some locations hear different messages from workers - the overseers are often bitter enemies of each other. And again I see "regional differences" cited for a church that has traditionally preached that it is "the same yesterday, today and forever." If THAT were ever true of "the Truth" church, there should be absolutely NO regional differences - "forever." While I agree that regional differences shouldn't be possible in a church that claims is the same today etc. I do think it has changed in some areas. If they are still preaching that in your 'area', then that is your experience. It hasn't been my experience to hear that but I'm not doubting that it is taught. I can only speak to my experience.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 17:22:16 GMT -5
I would not expect you to speak from anything other than your own experience, snow. Ronald Enroth wrote without any experience in the 2x2 group, but from testimony he received from former members - so the regional differences that DO show up in nearly town to town, depending on who the overseer is over both towns strikes their common message of "the same yesterday, today and forever" as a bold-faced lie - if that were true or even close to true, all 2x2 women would still be required to wear black stockings because that was the common dress code of the workers' making "yesterday." And the continued lie preached on after women basically thumbed their noses at that "yesterday" rule is a double lie, known as a lie by every worker who STILL preaches it these days while fashion has women of the profession of prostitution wearing black stockings these days.
So from common testimony of numerous witnesses, Ronald Enroth wrote;
Former members, who often refer to it as "the Truth," claim that a great number of children raised in the movement are subjected to stern discipline from an early age in order that their "wills can be broken." Ex-members report that infants as young as three months old are swatted. One said that
fussing of small children is an unacceptable disruption of the meeting, so children must be taught quickly and firmly how to behave and be silent. Children are expected to behave as miniature adults and whatever must be done to achieve this end is done. One common discipline is to expect children to eat everything on their plates, to train them for the task of being in the "work." Forcing children to eat is considered part of breaking their wills and teaching them to submit to parental authority. If they refuse or cannot, the workers view it as rebellion. 2
And you can check the publishing date of his book if that still has importance to you - for me, the lie about "yesterday, today and forever" is enough warning that workers are habitual liars -- and THAT is marked out by their FALSE gospel preached from Irvine right through to today, even beyond their false gospel being challenged by much more Biblically literate people during Irvine's time. And that leaves every 2x2 today holding the bag of workers' lies or else finding a more truthful church or whatever else they might take up as a belief of their origins. The workers' church is a lying church, not "the Truth" at any time in its whole history.
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Post by snow on May 4, 2019 17:28:47 GMT -5
I would not expect you to speak from anything other than your own experience, snow. Ronald Enroth wrote without any experience in the 2x2 group, but from testimony he received from former members - so the regional differences that DO show up in nearly town to town, depending on who the overseer is over both towns strikes their common message of "the same yesterday, today and forever" as a bold-faced lie - if that were true or even close to true, all 2x2 women would still be required to wear black stockings because that was the common dress code of the workers' making "yesterday." And the continued lie preached on after women basically thumbed their noses at that "yesterday" rule is a double lie, known as a lie by every worker who STILL preaches it these days while fashion has women of the profession of prostitution wearing black stockings these days. So from common testimony of numerous witnesses, Ronald Enroth wrote; Former members, who often refer to it as "the Truth," claim that a great number of children raised in the movement are subjected to stern discipline from an early age in order that their "wills can be broken." Ex-members report that infants as young as three months old are swatted. One said that fussing of small children is an unacceptable disruption of the meeting, so children must be taught quickly and firmly how to behave and be silent. Children are expected to behave as miniature adults and whatever must be done to achieve this end is done. One common discipline is to expect children to eat everything on their plates, to train them for the task of being in the "work." Forcing children to eat is considered part of breaking their wills and teaching them to submit to parental authority. If they refuse or cannot, the workers view it as rebellion. 2 And you can check the publishing date of his book if that still has importance to you - for me, the lie about "yesterday, today and forever" is enough warning that workers are habitual liars -- and THAT is marked out by their FALSE gospel preached from Irvine right through to today, even beyond their false gospel being challenged by much more Biblically literate people during Irvine's time. And that leaves every 2x2 today holding the bag of workers' lies or else finding a more truthful church or whatever else they might take up as a belief of their origins. The workers' church is a lying church, not "the Truth" at any time in its whole history. Well we do know things have changed. And it's also clear that they are different in different regions. If we take the example of divorce and how it's treated differently on the east coast of the US from the west coast of the US that is obvious. I wasn't aware they taught parents that, but it does explain why I left the meetings so often for a spanking. I was a particularly energetic child I guess because I remember being taken out a lot. To this day when I see a child being taken out of a restaurant screaming, no daddy no, it chills me to the bone. It takes me right back to when I screamed the same thing. Anyway, carry on. I just wanted to comment on my experience of not hearing about breaking kids spirits.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 20:45:31 GMT -5
So I am told, but when I hear workers preaching in their meetings, their messages are the same false (ambiguous) gospel, if they even mention "gospel" clearly at all. It would please me to no end if I ever heard one worker (who did not get booted out for doing it) preach that salvation is by God's grace through belief of the Biblical gospel that Jesus died FOR OUR SINS, paying OUR penalty FOR US, was buried and rose from the grave on the third day (1 cor. 15 verses 3-4.) But the overseers would likely have to go find a job to feed and house themselves if they ever allowed 2x2s to be taught the Biblical Good News. And most of them are aged beyond earning a wage on any job whatsoever, so they have trapped themselves into either begging for food and housing or continue preaching that their (false) gospel is the 2x2 ministry and meetings in homes. And as said already, the overseers' underling workers either preach what their overseer dictates or find themself on the street (booted out).
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Post by sunshine on May 4, 2019 23:25:47 GMT -5
So I am told, but when I hear workers preaching in their meetings, their messages are the same false (ambiguous) gospel, if they even mention "gospel" clearly at all. It would please me to no end if I ever heard one worker (who did not get booted out for doing it) preach that salvation is by God's grace through belief of the Biblical gospel that Jesus died FOR OUR SINS, paying OUR penalty FOR US, was buried and rose from the grave on the third day (1 cor. 15 verses 3-4.) But the overseers would likely have to go find a job to feed and house themselves if they ever allowed 2x2s to be taught the Biblical Good News. And most of them are aged beyond earning a wage on any job whatsoever, so they have trapped themselves into either begging for food and housing or continue preaching that their (false) gospel is the 2x2 ministry and meetings in homes. And as said already, the overseers' underling workers either preach what their overseer dictates or find themself on the street (booted out). I don't think I've ever heard a worker say that the gospel means the ministry and the meeting in the homes. (In the last 35 years, anyway) Maybe they used to mistakenly say that, I don't know and can't speak for all. They do often talk about Jesus dying for the sins of people of the past, present, and future, and that salvation is a gift. And that it is by faith, not works.
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Post by sunshine on May 4, 2019 23:36:59 GMT -5
"'I'm not sure what time period or country this is describing, but the only really accurate "rule" listed that applies now, here in the US, is that women never wear jewelry. All the other stuff mentioned is pretty optional and a matter of choice or habit." And recently in gospel meetings I still heard workers preach how their church is "the same yesterday, today and forver." Maybe that false message is just historically habitual, just as it has been historically false. Edit -Ronald Enroth also wrote, "Very little has been written about this obscure worldwide church which is said to have as many as one hundred thousand members." I have seen guestimates anywhere up to a quarter million in what has been written about "the Truth." And I have copy of a head worker's local address list that includes EVERY member - workers can state exactly how many members they still have after the writings about their church became well known outside of their church with The Secret Sect published in 1982, but workers do not tell even members how many members their church has at any time in 2x2 history. In fact the "little meetings" on Sundays and Wednesdays are used by workers to claim "few" members who have ever "found the Truth." The confusion to any onlookers is a planned deception by workers historically. Maybe the workers just, in a sense, just say things out of habit, and from hearing what others say all their life. Maybe they say its " the same yesterday today and forever", meaning Jesus only, not clothing and hairstyles, discipline methods,etc, which is always changing throughout history in every culture and group.
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Post by magpie1 on May 5, 2019 1:12:06 GMT -5
Dear Gratu,William Irvine "Cruel false Prophet" Founder of the 2x2s. The founding fathers or the movement going into other countries eg Carrolls,Turner,Walker,Cooney,etc.followed this false prophet until Jesus did not turn up as he prophesied in 1914,so he got pushed out. Cooney did not believe in State or Country Bishops being set up,he wanted them all to remain as the original Irvine pattern,into all the World as transient roving Preachers. The response is we are comfortable now so nick off,and shut up. Yes THe 2x2s founder was ruthless,property handed to him,and as mentioned before,sacked a younger disciple of his"WHY"? because he refused to preach that John Wesley would be burning in "Hell". And preachers in our homes were often chastising the children of their hosts without rebuke,as they were God's representatives and I heard a mother quote because of the preacher chastising...OH it means as the Bible tells us,"Spare the rod and spoil the child". A LITTLE BIT OF GRACE WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER,as GRACE IS A"FREE" GIFT FROM GOD"> .. www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjamshZy9N8 .. Love Magpie.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2019 2:41:35 GMT -5
Magpie1, you are surely correct about the mean character of the founder and his first ring of co-workers -- these people were MEAN to each other and certainly MEANER to all who disagreed with them even slightly. And that same MEANNESS still shows up in Willis Propp in Alberta in 1995-2003, after he was caught red handed by an ex-2x2 with five other leading workers who secretly registered 2x2s as The Alberta Society of Christian Assemblies. Here is a link to those registry documents - downloadable if you want them. And I know that the ousted companion of William Irvine who refused to condemn John Wesley was none other than John Long, whose somewhat Irvine-worshiping "John Long's Journal" belonged. 51- VIA Galleries – 01 Alberta Society of Chrisian Assemblies, 1995 (new registered name of 2x2ism) drive.google.com/file/d/1wCzvNVpmLCM-gpU5W4JCMRhP06iE3OhY/view?usp=sharingAnd here is the most in depth contemporary study of the religious character of William Irvine that I have ever laid eyes upon - also downloadable - this is in fact a book that would be at least one inch thick in print, written online by several athors while VOT operated its forum -- you won't read it all in one sitting. 64- William Irvine – Religious Environment drive.google.com/file/d/1mx18devrGLoYOD3DnJ-RxbUdCtYJgTlS/view?usp=sharingAnd its smaller companion volume, 63- William Irvine – Physical Environment drive.google.com/file/d/1ZQ8_1UKaACxRZfhMlEZBoLjl963WSeHZ/view?usp=sharing
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Post by nathan on May 5, 2019 10:14:26 GMT -5
"'I'm not sure what time period or country this is describing, but the only really accurate "rule" listed that applies now, here in the US, is that women never wear jewelry. All the other stuff mentioned is pretty optional and a matter of choice or habit." And recently in gospel meetings I still heard workers preach how their church is "the same yesterday, today and forver." Maybe that false message is just historically habitual, just as it has been historically false. Edit -Ronald Enroth also wrote, "Very little has been written about this obscure worldwide church which is said to have as many as one hundred thousand members." I have seen guestimates anywhere up to a quarter million in what has been written about "the Truth." And I have copy of a head worker's local address list that includes EVERY member - workers can state exactly how many members they still have after the writings about their church became well known outside of their church with The Secret Sect published in 1982, but workers do not tell even members how many members their church has at any time in 2x2 history. In fact the "little meetings" on Sundays and Wednesdays are used by workers to claim "few" members who have ever "found the Truth." The confusion to any onlookers is a planned deception by workers historically. Maybe the workers just, in a sense, just say things out of habit, and from hearing what others say all their life. Maybe they say its " the same yesterday today and forever", meaning Jesus only, not clothing and hairstyles, discipline methods,etc, which is always changing throughout history in every culture and group. Amen. The New Testament the Way and the Truth of Jesus Christ Salvation is the SAME yesterday, today and forever. cultures, fashions, clothing change almost in every generation but the gospel and the method of the apostolic ministry which preach Jesus SAVES sinners are and will be the SAME yesterday, today and forever! We see the workers how they handle things in differently in states, countries and the friends changes the last 100 yrs, in their ways of doing things, lifestyle, fashions/black stockings, women using nylon and now they are not, using of the Internet, computers, iPhone, cell phones and so on.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 5, 2019 10:33:25 GMT -5
So I am told, but when I hear workers preaching in their meetings, their messages are the same false (ambiguous) gospel, if they even mention "gospel" clearly at all. It would please me to no end if I ever heard one worker (who did not get booted out for doing it) preach that salvation is by God's grace through belief of the Biblical gospel that Jesus died FOR OUR SINS, paying OUR penalty FOR US, was buried and rose from the grave on the third day (1 cor. 15 verses 3-4.) But the overseers would likely have to go find a job to feed and house themselves if they ever allowed 2x2s to be taught the Biblical Good News. And most of them are aged beyond earning a wage on any job whatsoever, so they have trapped themselves into either begging for food and housing or continue preaching that their (false) gospel is the 2x2 ministry and meetings in homes. And as said already, the overseers' underling workers either preach what their overseer dictates or find themself on the street (booted out). I know that time and time again, I’d hear workers talking about outsiders that continued to come to their gospel mission, saying, “They just aren’t getting it quite yet.” I always wondered what “They weren’t getting”! I figured it out and the “it” was that the itinerant ministry and meetings in the home are the workers’ tenets of faith. The true gospel of Jesus Christ doesn’t take months or weeks of preaching for people to understand. Didn’t the Apostles add about 3000 in a day or so? People that make “their choice” as far as the workers’ church is concerned is exactly that. Choosing to be a part of the workers’s church.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 5, 2019 10:37:59 GMT -5
Maybe the workers just, in a sense, just say things out of habit, and from hearing what others say all their life. Maybe they say its " the same yesterday today and forever", meaning Jesus only, not clothing and hairstyles, discipline methods,etc, which is always changing throughout history in every culture and group. Amen. The New Testament the Way and the Truth of Jesus Christ Salvation is the SAME yesterday, today and forever. cultures, fashions, clothing change almost in every generation but the gospel and the method of the apostolic ministry which preach Jesus SAVES sinners are and will be the SAME yesterday, today and forever! We see the workers how they handle things in differently in states, countries and the friends changes the last 100 yrs, in their ways of doing things, lifestyle, fashions/black stockings, women using nylon and now they are not, using of the Internet, computers, iPhone, cell phones and so on.
Again, there is NO way “of” Jesus or truth “of” Jesus! It is plainly written, “Jesus said, I AM the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE.” We can’t have any of it until we go through Jesus, accept he IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I do not know why people keep going on about the “OF” when the reality IS Jesus and only Jesus.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 5, 2019 10:43:47 GMT -5
So I am told, but when I hear workers preaching in their meetings, their messages are the same false (ambiguous) gospel, if they even mention "gospel" clearly at all. It would please me to no end if I ever heard one worker (who did not get booted out for doing it) preach that salvation is by God's grace through belief of the Biblical gospel that Jesus died FOR OUR SINS, paying OUR penalty FOR US, was buried and rose from the grave on the third day (1 cor. 15 verses 3-4.) But the overseers would likely have to go find a job to feed and house themselves if they ever allowed 2x2s to be taught the Biblical Good News. And most of them are aged beyond earning a wage on any job whatsoever, so they have trapped themselves into either begging for food and housing or continue preaching that their (false) gospel is the 2x2 ministry and meetings in homes. And as said already, the overseers' underling workers either preach what their overseer dictates or find themself on the street (booted out). I don't think I've ever heard a worker say that the gospel means the ministry and the meeting in the homes. (In the last 35 years, anyway) Maybe they used to mistakenly say that, I don't know and can't speak for all. They do often talk about Jesus dying for the sins of people of the past, present, and future, and that salvation is a gift. And that it is by faith, not works. Lyle Schober said in response to a young man once in that this young man just did not understand that the itinerant ministry and the meetings in the home was what the workers and friends believed in and valued. That was declaring that is the tenets of their faith as being the itinerant ministry and meetings in the homes.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 5, 2019 10:46:18 GMT -5
So I am told, but when I hear workers preaching in their meetings, their messages are the same false (ambiguous) gospel, if they even mention "gospel" clearly at all. It would please me to no end if I ever heard one worker (who did not get booted out for doing it) preach that salvation is by God's grace through belief of the Biblical gospel that Jesus died FOR OUR SINS, paying OUR penalty FOR US, was buried and rose from the grave on the third day (1 cor. 15 verses 3-4.) But the overseers would likely have to go find a job to feed and house themselves if they ever allowed 2x2s to be taught the Biblical Good News. And most of them are aged beyond earning a wage on any job whatsoever, so they have trapped themselves into either begging for food and housing or continue preaching that their (false) gospel is the 2x2 ministry and meetings in homes. And as said already, the overseers' underling workers either preach what their overseer dictates or find themself on the street (booted out). The workers do attempt to preach about Christ. But often it becomes wrapped up in the itinerant ministry and meetings in the home.
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Post by nathan on May 5, 2019 10:55:10 GMT -5
Amen. The New Testament the Way and the Truth of Jesus Christ Salvation is the SAME yesterday, today and forever. cultures, fashions, clothing change almost in every generation but the gospel and the method of the apostolic ministry which preach Jesus SAVES sinners are and will be the SAME yesterday, today and forever! We see the workers how they handle things in differently in states, countries and the friends changes the last 100 yrs, in their ways of doing things, lifestyle, fashions/black stockings, women using nylon and now they are not, using of the Internet, computers, iPhone, cell phones and so on.
Again, there is NO way “of” Jesus or truth “of” Jesus! It is plainly written, “Jesus said, I AM the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE.” We can’t have any of it until we go through Jesus, accept he IS the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I do not know why people keep going on about the “OF” when the reality IS Jesus and only Jesus. You are NOT paying attention to what you read in the Bible. READ the New Testament, the gospels, the book of Acts, the epistles of the apostles and the book of revelation. There is Jesus Christ Church/believers and they FOLLOW Jesus Truth and Way= New Testament believers. Yes, Jesus is the WAY and the TRUTH and those who are TRULY believe and follow him, they are following His WAY and Truth that He teaches and His apostles teachings also! The FELLOWSHIP of Believers in the New Testament. Acts 2:41-42 Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. They devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Heb. 10:23-25 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. I John 1:5-7 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 19. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
~~ There were those who belong to their fellowship but they LEFT and went somewhere else or Quit altogether! This is what the scriptures say about them in Heb. 10: 30 For we know him who said, “ It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 35-38 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised. For, “In just a little while, he who is coming will come and will not delay.” And, “But my righteous one will live by faith. And I take no pleasure in the one who shrinks back.”
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