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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 6:12:55 GMT -5
You're telling me about links on the first full posting I have done on this board - I have his testimony, not a link, so the whole testimony was posted instead of a link. But thanks anyway. One is as easy to post as the other. And the reason I post it is because it gives a great examination from inside the 2x2 'ministry' of the things few 2x2s ever see - in keeping with the thread title.
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Post by snow on May 17, 2019 14:36:10 GMT -5
You know, for years after I quit professing I still was naive enough to believe that the church of my parents was still the best one out there. Since coming here and finding Cherie's site I have learned so much about the group. Growing up in the 'Truth', I knew nothing. Not. A. Thing. about how it operated. I often wonder if my parents knew and I can't help but think they must have. But possibly not. They were still alive when I found out the group was started by W. Irvine. That was a shock for me and I never shared it with my parents because I was afraid they didn't know and I didn't want to shock them with both of them being in their 90's and had professed from their teen years. I have to wonder just how soon they started the blurb about being different because they were the only church that went back to the shores of Galilee? My grandfather professed in about 1915. Not once did I ever hear about Irvine. But the group hadn't been around all that long by the time the workers stayed a winter with them and he and my grandmother professed. I also never heard him say he believed in the Trinity doctrine. I know I was not taught that was right. The RCC were vilified by any workers I talked with or heard preaching. So if they ever believed in the Trinity teaching it must have been gone by 1915, at least in my grandfather's region. Maybe it depended on who the workers were? Thank you Cherie for all the work you have done to let us know the history of this group. It's been eye opening to say the least.
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Post by fixit on May 17, 2019 16:10:50 GMT -5
Did a copy of Ken Paginton's letter to overseers survive?
Steve Blubaugh mentions it in the excerpt below...
During this era Ken Paginton was dying of cancer in England. He was the first of the 2x2s to go to Madagascar. Eventually he was called back to the United Kingdom to be overseer. During Ken’s death process he was burdened by the lack of unity. Ken recognized a dreadful discord among the men in power in the 2x2 system. Ken wrote an epistle. I understand he sent it to each of the overseers worldwide. Gilbert received one such letter. Ken’s letter was soon followed with a letter from someone else who insisted that Ken’s letter be destroyed! Before he destroyed his letter, Gilbert read to me a couple of paragraphs from it. I do not recall any statements from that epistle - only Ken’s heartfelt plea for each overseer to lay aside legalistic differences and earnestly seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit that they might attain the unity that is in Christ. Ken wrote of the pain and confusion they were causing. The epistle was very moving. It was to be destroyed!
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Post by joanna on May 18, 2019 19:00:17 GMT -5
snow . Any specific information about one of the many variations of the Christian doctrine do not change the fact that the claims on which Christianity is founded are false. If we refute the account of a resurrection, which is fundamental to Christianity, and the many other miracles and unbelievable, unevidenced biblical claims, then the finer details of any one of the 1,000's of christian sects presents as irrelevant as all these sects share common ground: they are based on myth and legend. Not one conforms to "The Truth".
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 18, 2019 20:26:15 GMT -5
You're telling me about links on the first full posting I have done on this board - I have his testimony, not a link, so the whole testimony was posted instead of a link. But thanks anyway. One is as easy to post as the other. And the reason I post it is because it gives a great examination from inside the 2x2 'ministry' of the things few 2x2s ever see - in keeping with the thread title. Steve has suffered some very disappointing things where family members perhaps were the hardest on him. I look back recalling all the negativity espoused and expounded about him. It made me ill then and it still makes me ill today. He has refined as gold through some very harsh experiences. Bless his heart!
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 23:12:49 GMT -5
There are far too many former 2x2s who have experienced similar gut-wrenching hardships to those that Steve describes. On the one hand there are families in which the majority of family members became members of the 2x2 group, who suffered far fewer family rifts mainly because they shared the same or at least similar beliefs. On the other hand there have been families in which only one set of parents and their kids had any connections with the workers or their teachings, in which family rifts multiplied until family members (aunts, uncles, and cousins) eventually had no family bonds left with the 2x2 parents and their kids. Steve is not the only former 2x2 who was instructed by workers to stop calling his PARENTS and SIBLINGS, let alone the rest of his relatives. Wherever the workers gained a foothold on this planet, they have sown family disruptions in their attempts to isolate their converts from all influences besides 2x2s. And these stories that have come from former 2x2s have appeared in many outside examinations of the 2xc2 group resulting in the conclusion that workers and their doctrines (teachings) are “cultic” or “cult-like” by most outside examiners. The Christian Research Institute wrote that after examining whatever they could find on the 2x2s, they concluded that the evidence showed that the 2x2s are “a much to be avoided legalistic trap and a heretical cult.” And theirs was one of the first outside examinations done in the last 40 years. Several previous outside examinations date right back to the Impartial Reporter newspaper articles of the 2x2 formation years (1897-1910) – compiled in the book The Tramps or Go-Preachers by Wm. Trimble – heres a link (I could post the whole book like I did with Steve's testimony (on which I had no link to post), but I will just RE-post the link to that book that already exists in To 2x2 With Love3 on this board).. And in the last 40 years there have been numerous University examinations of the 2x2 group which are similarly no flattering to 2x2s. The Tramp or Go-Preachers by WM Trimble, 1910 (download freely at) drive.google.com/file/d/1YCNcM9bXU7EfP9mh6iGgEYapKx7ATRPy/view?usp=sharing
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 1:04:57 GMT -5
"I personally love how there are quite a few court transcripts available from various times of this group around the world - the words of workers et al under oath, preserved for our posterity and later evidence. "
Sorry Elizabeth, I have been busy the last while, but intended to smile with you regarding court transcripts.
And my smile is wider than just court transcripts for posterity, it is wide because I witnessed a trial in 1999 in which Willis Propp testified - he was questioned first by the defense counsel, starting off in reference to the prosecution counsel having send him an email message BECAUSE the lawyer was told that Willis Propp would again not show up at the court (as he failed to show up to a subpoena in 1997 family court) and was AGAIN hiding out at an unidentified convention grounds in the USA. The defense lawyer began his questioning, "How did that (the email message) make you feel?" And Willis Propp (under oath) replied that he was "afraid" that when he landed at the airport in Edmonton that he would be met "by a gang of thugs."
You and I know that if you are not on side with most 2x2 overseers, you will be feared as a "thug." Talk about paranoia at the top end of 2x2 leadership - smile, smile, and double smile --- I lately read some character witness regarding Willis Propp that stated that he was 'an expert' at garnering 'sympathy.'
By the way, there are a number of court transcripts available for download from the link in the opening post of To 2x2s With Love3, including some transcripts of the testimony of Willia Propp at that trial.
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Post by Dennis J on May 19, 2019 3:30:29 GMT -5
Steve, as you would know from our previous contact, what you experienced paralleled mine in traveling across the USA, and then in Europe. Not one bit of difference, except mine included physical injury to myself. Later, knowing what TS had confessed to me about his usurping power in Washington State, he grew very fearful I might blow the whistle on him.
He then began a campaign to remove me in a way none would EVER pay any attention to what I might say in the future! I was as shocked as you were at your betrayals. How could I ever have made the decision that was TRUTH? It is gone now, long in the past. That ministry cannot confess to their own error. About anything!
It is clear to me now, that not just myself, but others like you, have been totally libeled and slandered by the likes of men and women you have described and I could have done so also (still can!) TS went directly from my home to my parents and began weaving lies and deceit. They KNEW what would happen to them if they ever spoke up for me. All have forgotten how they all begged me to return to that work! Not one stood in opposition then, nor when I was thoroughly vetted prior to being given the go ahead to be moved to Sweden.
As I related to YOU many years ago now, I have no doubt to the accuracy of what you have given account even in these words. It WILL all be exposed, for each of us, I have only my Lord’s grace to cover my participation. Totally undeserved. May you find some comfort in knowing how parallel both our experiences have been. Know I consider you a brother in having been deceived, though I rejoice you have not even been disinherited by your parents.
People reading here defending a system producing such results also have a lot to give account for, and the time will come when they, too, must “pay the piper.”
Dennis Jacobsen
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2019 13:05:44 GMT -5
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Post by snow on May 19, 2019 14:07:20 GMT -5
snow . Any specific information about one of the many variations of the Christian doctrine do not change the fact that the claims on which Christianity is founded are false. If we refute the account of a resurrection, which is fundamental to Christianity, and the many other miracles and unbelievable, unevidenced biblical claims, then the finer details of any one of the 1,000's of christian sects presents as irrelevant as all these sects share common ground: they are based on myth and legend. Not one conforms to "The Truth". Yes, I know they are all based on myth and legend. Since I was in the 'Truth' I am glad to find out about the idiosyncrasies of it. I thought that it was one of the better doctrines out there if one had to follow one at all. I had hoped that my parents weren't in a group that was lying about so many things. I realized that they already believed in something for which there was no evidence, but I thought at least if they had to believe in something like that, they were in a group with some integrity. I was naive enough to not see the lack of integrity of the workers and some of the elders. For the most part the members seemed to be good, sincere people trying to do the best they could.
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Post by Dan on May 19, 2019 15:32:00 GMT -5
A long but interesting review of Steve Blubaugh's experience in the Work.. I'm still unclear about the conflict he drew from Overseers and other Workers? Apparently it was mainly criticism over his teaching of "Grace" rather than "Works"?. I guess when an individual deviates from what a church stipulates is true, its controversial, divisive, and interferes with the unified message that a group endorses. It would be like a Seventh-day Adventist denying the Sabbath, preaching such a thing would throw a monkey-wrench into a core tenet of what they stand for.
They seemed to have given Steve ample opportunity to straighten himself out, even sent him over-seas to get his head on straight, but he obviously grew to understand things differently and refused to cease and desist. It took a long time, but his unwillingness to comply or alter his attitude lead to his inevitable expulsion. Can't have a stumbling block in the pulpit, its disruptive, confusing, and counter-productive to keeping a single-minded tight-knit flock.
While I agree that "by grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8), its not part of the selective indoctrination that supports a more narrow view of earned salvation. We are saved by grace, but works still matter. The new age "throw out the commandments" philosophy just doesn't fly with Christian fundamentalist. But there's a happy median of conflating grace with works, and I hear it cures insomnia too. My own view is that we are saved by grace (unmerited favor) through faith, but rewarded by works. "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12).
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 19, 2019 18:10:36 GMT -5
A long but interesting review of Steve Blubaugh's experience in the Work.. I'm still unclear about the conflict he drew from Overseers and other Workers? Apparently it was mainly criticism over his teaching of "Grace" rather than "Works"?. I guess when an individual deviates from what a church stipulates is true, its controversial, divisive, and interferes with the unified message that a group endorses. It would be like a Seventh-day Adventist denying the Sabbath, preaching such a thing would throw a monkey-wrench into a core tenet of what they stand for. They seemed to have given Steve ample opportunity to straighten himself out, even sent him over-seas to get his head on straight, but he obviously grew to understand things differently and refused to cease and desist. It took a long time, but his unwillingness to comply or alter his attitude lead to his inevitable expulsion. Can't have a stumbling block in the pulpit, its disruptive, confusing, and counter-productive to keeping a single-minded tight-knit flock. While I agree that "by grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8), its not part of the selective indoctrination that supports a more narrow view of earned salvation. We are saved by grace, but works still matter. The new age "throw out the commandments" philosophy just doesn't fly with Christian fundamentalist. But there's a happy median of conflating grace with works, and I hear it cures insomnia too. My own view is that we are saved by grace (unmerited favor) through faith, but rewarded by works. "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12). Thanks for your comments, Dan. I enjoyed reading Steve's story. I don't think he focused much on conflict, he more revealed a gradual self-awakening that there "had to be something more". He felt he was just toe-deep in the scriptures instead of finding the depths. Becoming aware that salvation is by grace, through faith, is a common refrain of those who have left and still have Christian belief. Trying to preach this concept in the meetings, though, appears to almost universally result in growing apprehension from the hierarchy and eventual expulsion or parting of ways. Yes, works are rewarded. Scripture is clear on that. But we do good works because of our salvation, not to earn it (I'm sure you agree). It is the natural flow-on result of our love for God because he has already saved us. Another interesting question is - what exactly are those works? I don't think it has anything to do with man-made rules of outward appearance or meeting in homes instead of church buildings. I find great comfort in Revelation 20: 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
We are judged according to what is in our book. We will all be found wanting, and fall far short (Rom 3:23). Only those who name is in the other book - The Book of Life - will saved. Those who have believed in Christ. 1 Cor 3: 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
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Post by joanna on May 19, 2019 18:54:56 GMT -5
snow . I can understand the disappointment as there was a time when I too thought that people of whatever faith would apply higher standards than those without faith. When you learn that the very framework on which the 2x2's and all faith beliefs are based is false, it is that 'knowing' of the people whom we trusted, and who were seemingly nice people, that makes it so difficult to accept that they were, or still are living a lie. Not only members of the 2x2 group but close friends of many years who i had so much in common with due to their conservative upbringings and religious backgrounds. I found that coming to the realisation that religiosity is a thin facade which obscures deep-seated and perpetual issues was a gradual process and on occasions i initially resisted information, including the time i first learnt of a 2x2 worker who was guilty of CSA. Faith is no foundation, and when lies are the pillars on which these beliefs are built- all the problems emanating from religion throughout the ages to the present are unavoidable.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 19, 2019 19:24:08 GMT -5
A long but interesting review of Steve Blubaugh's experience in the Work.. I'm still unclear about the conflict he drew from Overseers and other Workers? Apparently it was mainly criticism over his teaching of "Grace" rather than "Works"?. I guess when an individual deviates from what a church stipulates is true, its controversial, divisive, and interferes with the unified message that a group endorses. It would be like a Seventh-day Adventist denying the Sabbath, preaching such a thing would throw a monkey-wrench into a core tenet of what they stand for. They seemed to have given Steve ample opportunity to straighten himself out, even sent him over-seas to get his head on straight, but he obviously grew to understand things differently and refused to cease and desist. It took a long time, but his unwillingness to comply or alter his attitude lead to his inevitable expulsion. Can't have a stumbling block in the pulpit, its disruptive, confusing, and counter-productive to keeping a single-minded tight-knit flock. While I agree that "by grace are ye saved through faith" (Ephesians 2:8), its not part of the selective indoctrination that supports a more narrow view of earned salvation. We are saved by grace, but works still matter. The new age "throw out the commandments" philosophy just doesn't fly with Christian fundamentalist. But there's a happy median of conflating grace with works, and I hear it cures insomnia too. My own view is that we are saved by grace (unmerited favor) through faith, but rewarded by works. "And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:12). The issue is easily summarized in this thought: “If we could effect or affect our salvation, Jesus would not have had to die.” Proof: the Bible says our most righteous deeds are as filthy rags.
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Post by Dan on May 19, 2019 22:51:41 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments, Dan. I enjoyed reading Steve's story. I don't think he focused much on conflict, he more revealed a gradual self-awakening that there "had to be something more". He felt he was just toe-deep in the scriptures instead of finding the depths. Becoming aware that salvation is by grace, through faith, is a common refrain of those who have left and still have Christian belief. Trying to preach this concept in the meetings, though, appears to almost universally result in growing apprehension from the hierarchy and eventual expulsion or parting of ways. Yes, works are rewarded. Scripture is clear on that. But we do good works because of our salvation, not to earn it (I'm sure you agree). It is the natural flow-on result of our love for God because he has already saved us. Another interesting question is - what exactly are those works? I don't think it has anything to do with man-made rules of outward appearance or meeting in homes instead of church buildings. I find great comfort in Revelation 20: 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
We are judged according to what is in our book. We will all be found wanting, and fall far short (Rom 3:23). Only those who name is in the other book - The Book of Life - will saved. Those who have believed in Christ. 1 Cor 3: 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Yes, now that you mention it, Steve did dwell on the "had to be something more" theme, as his comments below indicate;
"I constantly felt there was more to the scriptures than what I was getting – surely there was more to share than I had to give! Throughout my career I was exposed to repetitive preaching – reciting stuff over and over. I grew to hate it! Some of my early assignments were champions at this – never sharing anything new or different. Robert Thompson could hum-drum night after night on the parable of the sower and seed; actually, saying nothing insightful. The lack of life and insight and inspiration was mortifying! I discovered there is definitely more to be gleaned from the scriptures than what these guys or I were getting from it!"
I can relate to that, the meetings seemed one-dimensional to me too, no growth, just the same ole "keep it simple stupid" mind-set. I gradually faded away for similar reasons, The last time I asked a Worker a question, the response was "You lack faith", to which I replied, "Probably true, but not getting answers ain't helping". But there were a multitude of reasons I eventually stopped going to mtgs, as I'm sure was true for Steve's departure.
I also agree that 'works' have nothing to do with stringent dress codes, or could it be that Jesus just forgot to mention it in any of the gospels?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 19, 2019 22:58:40 GMT -5
I also agree that 'works' have nothing to do with stringent dress codes, or could it be that Jesus just forgot to mention it in any of the gospels?
Yeah, he was a bit unsure what to say about women wearing pants, since they didn't really exist at that time, and he himself was wearing a one-piece dress-style robe...
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 3:38:36 GMT -5
“I also agree that 'works' have nothing to do with stringent dress codes, ...”
According to T.W. Of The Lynden Bible Lecture series, the strict dress codes are just like the cross worn by many that workers ridicule as a sing of “Christian” membership. He detailed his recogition of a woman at the Library, where he was holding Gospel Meetings, who “by her outward appearance would be someone I should know.”
Workers have always imposed stringent dress code on 2x2 women so they can recognize 2x2s “by outward appearance.” The code also applies to men, but since the men don't wear dresses (which would surely mark out 2x2 men if they did) the code gets dumped mainly on the male kids who get bullied at school for looking so different to every other male student. In my time we were forced to wear braces on our baggy pants instead of a belt on the tighter common pants worn by other kids (non2x2s). And it was a daily occurrence for all the other kids (including the girls, and even some of the teachers too) to snap our braces in ridicule of such out of style clothing. Male workers who ruled the roost, of course, took the least ridiculed code by just dressing in dark conservative suits with white shirt and very narrow (not wide) tie, looking as much like Mormons as 2x2. And then there was Eldon T., who wore a Tux to impress 2x2s with his 'royalty' of course.
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Post by chuck on May 20, 2019 5:26:54 GMT -5
I think works are important but not the way we are taught. We are taught we are saved by works, not directly but indirectly through guilt, therfore the more meetings you attend, the more gospel meetings you attend, more daily sacrifices ect ect the more likely you will be saved. Its sutble but effective for control and dedicated following, especially in young minds. That is not the works God wants. The works he wants is love, compassion, grace and so on.
If you think you can earn your way to heaven what did Christ die for? wasnt his sacrifice good enough?. Believe and your saved thats is the Gospel story. Do good works you get rewarded.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 9:40:12 GMT -5
The workers taught works-salvation much clearer in former years, while they also denigrated Grace much more clearly as well. Irvine called those who believed that Christ died for our sins “Calvery Ranters” right in the beginning of his 2x2 thing. And works then were mainly condemning everyone other than Irvine and his preachers, but then Irvine denounced most of his preachers too, while exiting his meetings through a window in case he might get contaminated by someone in his audience touching him. At that time he also allowed no “friends.” All had to sell all they owned, give the proceeds to Irvine and go out preaching with no income. It was in 1908 that Irvine, under pressure of Conney and other key preachers in his team that he at long last sanctioned “friends” and their Meetings In The Home, which were previously not any part of Irvine's Gospel. Here are a few historical clear statements made by his workers. BLOOD OF JESUS Andrew Abernathy - Saginaw, Oregon Convention - “Do not expect the blood of Christ to cleanse us until we cleanse ourselves. There are four ways in which we can be cleansed. 1. We cleanse ourselves. 2. We are cleansed by the Holy Spirit. 3. We are cleansed by the Word of God. 4. We are cleansed by the precious blood of Jesus. All four are very, very necessary for all of us to make it right to have the right attitude towards sin. Rose Ella Behrend - Olympia, WA 1970 - “The price that Jesus paid that He could be one with His Father. This is the price we all must pay.” John Beth- 1968 - “Often times we come into contact with people in the world today who feel the blood of Christ is going to make atonement for everything. If all Jesus was to do was shed His blood, He could have done that in a very short time; but He had a work to do even before He shed His blood. He spent something like 33 1⁄2 years giving his life to make plain and clear to this world, once and for all, what was Truth, and what was right and acceptable in the sight of God.....His ministry and meetings in the home.” William Carroll - Crocknacrieve, Ireland August 12, 1909 - “”The devil has deluded people all over the world into believing they are saved by the Blood when they have no right to even mention His name.” Edward Cooney - “To get the blood of Christ you must first pour out your own blood and have it replaced little by little.” John Forbes - Milltown, WA 1952 - “The blood of Jesus can only cleanse us when we offer our bodies as a whole burnt offering, as we follow the workers in total self denial.” Jack Forbes - Milltown Convention 1952 - “What did the priest do with the blood? He poured it out at the base of the altar. The difference between God’s interpretation of the blood and the Pharisee (Christian) interpretation which I was taught is that I thought that we had nothing to do but believe upon Christ hanging on the cross. The older I get the more I value the Blood of Christ, but we shouldn’t fool ourselves because the blood of Jesus can only cleanse us when we offer our bodies as a whole burnt offering.” Romans 12:1-2 *** (Romans 12:1-2 speaks of our bodies as living offerings given in the act of service or worship...not to obtain salvation. Our own bodies cannot atone for anything.)*** William Irvine - “Christ’s blood was no different than the blood of any man!” Jack Jackson - Milltown, WA 1924 - “I am very thankful for the blood that brought about the reconciliation and that cleanses me everyday I walk in THE WAY.” Rose Johnson - 1988 - “I wouldn’t depend on the blood of Christ to save me. It takes more than that.” Anton Koutsourelis, Chelan Convention, WA 1981 - “When we try to obey, then the blood cleanses us. When we stop practicing the Word of God, then the blood of Jesus stops. As we try, the blood makes the cleansing perfect and complete.” Lyle Van Kuren - “Jesus shed His Blood and suffered for us that we should follow His steps.” Howard Mooney - Portland, OR - “God doesn’t take anyone into a prepared eternity unless they work to get there. It is the life, not the blood that saves you.” Howard Mooney, Bozeman, MT 1970 June 3, 1970 funeral service for Annie Lyness - “The separation comes first, then the washing of the blood of the Lamb. You could not have access to the efficiency of that blood without first of all being willing for the separation.” Howard Mooney - Salmon Arm Convention 1966 - “It is the life, not the blood that saves you. You have to be worthy of the blood.” Walter Pollock - Spokane, WA 1983 - “Trusting in the Blood is the wrong thing. It will only bring disillusionment.” Berniece Pieper - 1970 - “Titus 2:14 “He redeemed us from all iniquity...His blood had to flow to redeem us and cleanse us from human thinking.” Leo Stancliffe - 1981 - “My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ, But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry without a home and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry you don’t have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit.” Leo Stancliff - Special meeting Los Angeles - “There is not one word in the Bible that says we are saved by the Blood of Christ. The reason Christ came to earth was to teach us how to live.” Tharold Sylvester - Parma, ID 1960 - “They have got to come in. They have to be inside. When people are brought inside of the family of God they know the shelter and protection of His blood and they can eat of that lamb. They were to eat the lamb with their shoes on their feet and their loins girded and a staff in their hands. God wanted them to be ready and willing to walk. The world today reaches that all that is necessary to save people is that the blood of Christ be shed for them. They take the blood outside, but the blood of Christ only avails for those inside. 1 John 1:7 Will that blood cleanse you if you are not walking in the Light? Three is no evidence in the scripture that it will. It is conditional and that is why the blood of the bullock offering was taken inside but the body was taken outside and burned. Wouldn’t it take a pretty good fire to burn it? Wouldn’t it cast quite a light? We are trying to get people to walk in the light of Christ’s sacrifice. The body Jesus lived and taught and manifested. And when they accept that, the blood of Christ will cleanse them. That is the difference between the false gospel and the true gospel.” ***(cart before the horse)*** Tharold Sylvester - 1960 - “The blood of Christ only avails for those inside the TRUTH.” Tharold Sylvester, Devon, MT June 25, 1978 - “The religious world puts emphasis on the death of Christ. God would have allowed Jesus to be slain by Herod as a baby if that were true. The Lord wanted to show us His life, how to live, how to serve, how to minister, how to love, how to invest time.” Archie Turner - Chelan, WA 1961 - “There are three ways to cleanse ourselves. We must cleanse ourselves. The Word cleanses us and then there is the best cleansing of all. The provision made in the precious blood of Christ. This is the heavenly provision made that we might be cleansed from that which we ourselves could never cleanse ourselves from, so that we might be able to stand spotless before the Lord. His blood will cleanse us from all sin. Warren Wainwright - “We do believe in the Blood of Christ. It has not been talked about enough in the past. The Blood is a part of the gospel but reconciliation is through this ministry. The workers are the mediators.” Rhodesian worker - 1927 - “Were not the Apostles saved without the Blood?” Source - 35- Quotations of Workers drive.google.com/file/d/1ydxHdXwX-htFI3rGMkb9CqW0U8iYzXWP/view?usp=sharing
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 20, 2019 10:00:50 GMT -5
Thanks for your comments, Dan. I enjoyed reading Steve's story. I don't think he focused much on conflict, he more revealed a gradual self-awakening that there "had to be something more". He felt he was just toe-deep in the scriptures instead of finding the depths. Becoming aware that salvation is by grace, through faith, is a common refrain of those who have left and still have Christian belief. Trying to preach this concept in the meetings, though, appears to almost universally result in growing apprehension from the hierarchy and eventual expulsion or parting of ways. Yes, works are rewarded. Scripture is clear on that. But we do good works because of our salvation, not to earn it (I'm sure you agree). It is the natural flow-on result of our love for God because he has already saved us. Another interesting question is - what exactly are those works? I don't think it has anything to do with man-made rules of outward appearance or meeting in homes instead of church buildings. I find great comfort in Revelation 20: 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
We are judged according to what is in our book. We will all be found wanting, and fall far short (Rom 3:23). Only those who name is in the other book - The Book of Life - will saved. Those who have believed in Christ. 1 Cor 3: 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.
Yes, now that you mention it, Steve did dwell on the "had to be something more" theme, as his comments below indicate;
"I constantly felt there was more to the scriptures than what I was getting – surely there was more to share than I had to give! Throughout my career I was exposed to repetitive preaching – reciting stuff over and over. I grew to hate it! Some of my early assignments were champions at this – never sharing anything new or different. Robert Thompson could hum-drum night after night on the parable of the sower and seed; actually, saying nothing insightful. The lack of life and insight and inspiration was mortifying! I discovered there is definitely more to be gleaned from the scriptures than what these guys or I were getting from it!"
I can relate to that, the meetings seemed one-dimensional to me too, no growth, just the same ole "keep it simple stupid" mind-set. I gradually faded away for similar reasons, The last time I asked a Worker a question, the response was "You lack faith", to which I replied, "Probably true, but not getting answers ain't helping". But there were a multitude of reasons I eventually stopped going to mtgs, as I'm sure was true for Steve's departure.
I also agree that 'works' have nothing to do with stringent dress codes, or could it be that Jesus just forgot to mention it in any of the gospels?
Steve was excommunicated! Was the reason for his departure. When he went to a former companion who’d left the work and had his own business, he was given a job by this former companion. The workers then proceeded to remove a Wednesday night Bible study from this former companion’s home. If I remember right this companion left the fellowship also. The workers had no right in dictating who the man hired for his business nor did they have a right to dictate who he befriended. The things they’ll have to answer for have stacked pretty high.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 20, 2019 10:09:12 GMT -5
I think works are important but not the way we are taught. We are taught we are saved by works, not directly but indirectly through guilt, therfore the more meetings you attend, the more gospel meetings you attend, more daily sacrifices ect ect the more likely you will be saved. Its sutble but effective for control and dedicated following, especially in young minds. That is not the works God wants. The works he wants is love, compassion, grace and so on. If you think you can earn your way to heaven what did Christ die for? wasnt his sacrifice good enough?. Believe and your saved thats is the Gospel story. Do good works you get rewarded. And what’s so great about “believing” is faith is a gift of God. It isn’t faith in a church or religious system. But God’s gift of faith is faith in his only begotten Son!
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 20, 2019 10:14:14 GMT -5
I also agree that 'works' have nothing to do with stringent dress codes, or could it be that Jesus just forgot to mention it in any of the gospels?
Yeah, he was a bit unsure what to say about women wearing pants, since they didn't really exist at that time, and he himself was wearing a one-piece dress-style robe... I think Paul’s advice was that women not to be all dolled up with gems and gold, simply because not everyone could afford such. Thus those who could were showing off their elevated natural status and making the others feel very unwelcome and uncomfortable. Also the broiding of hair was because the harlots spent extensive time trying to outdo one another with their fancy hairdos which was a draw to get the best or richest Johns.
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Post by Dan on May 20, 2019 15:30:30 GMT -5
Yeah, he was a bit unsure what to say about women wearing pants, since they didn't really exist at that time, and he himself was wearing a one-piece dress-style robe... I think Paul’s advice was that women not to be all dolled up with gems and gold, simply because not everyone could afford such. Thus those who could were showing off their elevated natural status and making the others feel very unwelcome and uncomfortable. Also the brooding if hair was because the harlots spent extensive time trying to outdo one another with their fancy hairdos which was a draw to get the best or richest Johns. I asked them about that once and they did answer that question with this scripture: "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." (1 Timothy 2;9-10) and also "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:9).
There is also some evidence that these descriptions ("braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array") were used for harlots as a kind of advertisement. There is another point: neither men nor women ought to dress in such a way as to bring attention to themselves.. But street walkers don't usually braid their hair today, at least not the tramps I know
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 20, 2019 15:34:49 GMT -5
I think Paul’s advice was that women not to be all dolled up with gems and gold, simply because not everyone could afford such. Thus those who could were showing off their elevated natural status and making the others feel very unwelcome and uncomfortable. Also the brooding if hair was because the harlots spent extensive time trying to outdo one another with their fancy hairdos which was a draw to get the best or richest Johns. I asked them about that once and they did answer that question with this scripture: "In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." (1 Timothy 2;9-10) and also "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light" (1 Peter 2:9).
There is also some evidence that these descriptions ("braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array") were used for harlots as a kind of advertisement. There is another point: neither men nor women ought to dress in such a way as to bring attention to themselves.. But street walkers don't usually braid their hair today, at least not the tramps I know I’ve wondered for a long time if some really know what is meant when the Bible says “a peculiar” people? In this instance it means a people belonging to God. Strangely enough other bible translations don’t use the word “peculiar”.
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Post by chuck on May 20, 2019 17:14:39 GMT -5
The workers taught works-salvation much clearer in former years, while they also denigrated Grace much more clearly as well. Irvine called those who believed that Christ died for our sins “Calvery Ranters” right in the beginning of his 2x2 thing. And works then were mainly condemning everyone other than Irvine and his preachers, but then Irvine denounced most of his preachers too, while exiting his meetings through a window in case he might get contaminated by someone in his audience touching him. At that time he also allowed no “friends.” All had to sell all they owned, give the proceeds to Irvine and go out preaching with no income. It was in 1908 that Irvine, under pressure of Conney and other key preachers in his team that he at long last sanctioned “friends” and their Meetings In The Home, which were previously not any part of Irvine's Gospel. Here are a few historical clear statements made by his workers. BLOOD OF JESUS Andrew Abernathy - Saginaw, Oregon Convention - “Do not expect the blood of Christ to cleanse us until we cleanse ourselves. There are four ways in which we can be cleansed. 1. We cleanse ourselves. 2. We are cleansed by the Holy Spirit. 3. We are cleansed by the Word of God. 4. We are cleansed by the precious blood of Jesus. All four are very, very necessary for all of us to make it right to have the right attitude towards sin. Rose Ella Behrend - Olympia, WA 1970 - “The price that Jesus paid that He could be one with His Father. This is the price we all must pay.” John Beth- 1968 - “Often times we come into contact with people in the world today who feel the blood of Christ is going to make atonement for everything. If all Jesus was to do was shed His blood, He could have done that in a very short time; but He had a work to do even before He shed His blood. He spent something like 33 1⁄2 years giving his life to make plain and clear to this world, once and for all, what was Truth, and what was right and acceptable in the sight of God.....His ministry and meetings in the home.” William Carroll - Crocknacrieve, Ireland August 12, 1909 - “”The devil has deluded people all over the world into believing they are saved by the Blood when they have no right to even mention His name.” Edward Cooney - “To get the blood of Christ you must first pour out your own blood and have it replaced little by little.” John Forbes - Milltown, WA 1952 - “The blood of Jesus can only cleanse us when we offer our bodies as a whole burnt offering, as we follow the workers in total self denial.” Jack Forbes - Milltown Convention 1952 - “What did the priest do with the blood? He poured it out at the base of the altar. The difference between God’s interpretation of the blood and the Pharisee (Christian) interpretation which I was taught is that I thought that we had nothing to do but believe upon Christ hanging on the cross. The older I get the more I value the Blood of Christ, but we shouldn’t fool ourselves because the blood of Jesus can only cleanse us when we offer our bodies as a whole burnt offering.” Romans 12:1-2 *** (Romans 12:1-2 speaks of our bodies as living offerings given in the act of service or worship...not to obtain salvation. Our own bodies cannot atone for anything.)*** William Irvine - “Christ’s blood was no different than the blood of any man!” Jack Jackson - Milltown, WA 1924 - “I am very thankful for the blood that brought about the reconciliation and that cleanses me everyday I walk in THE WAY.” Rose Johnson - 1988 - “I wouldn’t depend on the blood of Christ to save me. It takes more than that.” Anton Koutsourelis, Chelan Convention, WA 1981 - “When we try to obey, then the blood cleanses us. When we stop practicing the Word of God, then the blood of Jesus stops. As we try, the blood makes the cleansing perfect and complete.” Lyle Van Kuren - “Jesus shed His Blood and suffered for us that we should follow His steps.” Howard Mooney - Portland, OR - “God doesn’t take anyone into a prepared eternity unless they work to get there. It is the life, not the blood that saves you.” Howard Mooney, Bozeman, MT 1970 June 3, 1970 funeral service for Annie Lyness - “The separation comes first, then the washing of the blood of the Lamb. You could not have access to the efficiency of that blood without first of all being willing for the separation.” Howard Mooney - Salmon Arm Convention 1966 - “It is the life, not the blood that saves you. You have to be worthy of the blood.” Walter Pollock - Spokane, WA 1983 - “Trusting in the Blood is the wrong thing. It will only bring disillusionment.” Berniece Pieper - 1970 - “Titus 2:14 “He redeemed us from all iniquity...His blood had to flow to redeem us and cleanse us from human thinking.” Leo Stancliffe - 1981 - “My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ, But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry without a home and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry you don’t have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit.” Leo Stancliff - Special meeting Los Angeles - “There is not one word in the Bible that says we are saved by the Blood of Christ. The reason Christ came to earth was to teach us how to live.” Tharold Sylvester - Parma, ID 1960 - “They have got to come in. They have to be inside. When people are brought inside of the family of God they know the shelter and protection of His blood and they can eat of that lamb. They were to eat the lamb with their shoes on their feet and their loins girded and a staff in their hands. God wanted them to be ready and willing to walk. The world today reaches that all that is necessary to save people is that the blood of Christ be shed for them. They take the blood outside, but the blood of Christ only avails for those inside. 1 John 1:7 Will that blood cleanse you if you are not walking in the Light? Three is no evidence in the scripture that it will. It is conditional and that is why the blood of the bullock offering was taken inside but the body was taken outside and burned. Wouldn’t it take a pretty good fire to burn it? Wouldn’t it cast quite a light? We are trying to get people to walk in the light of Christ’s sacrifice. The body Jesus lived and taught and manifested. And when they accept that, the blood of Christ will cleanse them. That is the difference between the false gospel and the true gospel.” ***(cart before the horse)*** Tharold Sylvester - 1960 - “The blood of Christ only avails for those inside the TRUTH.” Tharold Sylvester, Devon, MT June 25, 1978 - “The religious world puts emphasis on the death of Christ. God would have allowed Jesus to be slain by Herod as a baby if that were true. The Lord wanted to show us His life, how to live, how to serve, how to minister, how to love, how to invest time.” Archie Turner - Chelan, WA 1961 - “There are three ways to cleanse ourselves. We must cleanse ourselves. The Word cleanses us and then there is the best cleansing of all. The provision made in the precious blood of Christ. This is the heavenly provision made that we might be cleansed from that which we ourselves could never cleanse ourselves from, so that we might be able to stand spotless before the Lord. His blood will cleanse us from all sin. Warren Wainwright - “We do believe in the Blood of Christ. It has not been talked about enough in the past. The Blood is a part of the gospel but reconciliation is through this ministry. The workers are the mediators.” Rhodesian worker - 1927 - “Were not the Apostles saved without the Blood?” Source - 35- Quotations of Workers drive.google.com/file/d/1ydxHdXwX-htFI3rGMkb9CqW0U8iYzXWP/view?usp=sharingThis makes me sad. We can never be worthy, thats the whole point. If we can make ourselves worthy or clense ourselves what do we need Christ for?. Christ did what we can NEVER do. That is the GOOD NEWS OF THE GOSPEL!. There is NOTHING WE CAN DO but trust that he did what we cannot, It doesn't get any better than that, thats why it's GOOD NEWS!. Thinking we can do something is trampling on Christ. Hebrews 10 has something to say about this. Now just because we can do nothing to save oursleves does not mean we should do nothing. You can if you like but God want us to to be fruitful, love, compassion, grace, strive for righteousness ect ect, all these things to align oursleves with Gods Kingdom and Jesus's teachings.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 20, 2019 17:35:45 GMT -5
Chuck, the Bible says that the mercy and love of God behooves is to do our best.
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Post by snow on May 20, 2019 18:03:17 GMT -5
snow . I can understand the disappointment as there was a time when I too thought that people of whatever faith would apply higher standards than those without faith. When you learn that the very framework on which the 2x2's and all faith beliefs are based is false, it is that 'knowing' of the people whom we trusted, and who were seemingly nice people, that makes it so difficult to accept that they were, or still are living a lie. Not only members of the 2x2 group but close friends of many years who i had so much in common with due to their conservative upbringings and religious backgrounds. I found that coming to the realisation that religiosity is a thin facade which obscures deep-seated and perpetual issues was a gradual process and on occasions i initially resisted information, including the time i first learnt of a 2x2 worker who was guilty of CSA. Faith is no foundation, and when lies are the pillars on which these beliefs are built- all the problems emanating from religion throughout the ages to the present are unavoidable. What really surprised me was how betrayed I felt when I came on here and heard all about Irvine and other things like CSA. And I had quit professing when I was 12!! Never went to a meeting after I left home and had been agnostic for years. Just goes to show you how much we were indoctrinated and how we carry it unconsciously for years!! What I've always feared is what I still do that is a 'throw back' to that time that I'm not even aware of.
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Post by joanna on May 20, 2019 19:32:47 GMT -5
snow . The different reactions are interesting. I did not ever feel betrayed and believe that may be due to having researched the process of religious indoctrination & that one of its effects is to coerce seemingly otherwise reasonable people into presenting false information as if it is factual. This forum continues that theme where individuals make statements which they cannot verify and yet they appear to be oblivious to the dishonest tactics they resort to avoid admitting that their claims are irrational. But I do have a problem understanding why people persist in avoiding facts now we are in the 21st C. & also how they can continue aligning themselves with beliefs which are supposed to promote morality - honesty, kindness etc but overwhelmingly have the opposite impact. I don't have any special characteristics so am at a loss to understand why others cannot also de-indoctrinate themselves: there are obviously strong motivators inhibiting people from applying reality checks and a healthy dose of skepticism.
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