Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 11:16:51 GMT -5
CSA is a problem for every worker, convention owner, 2x2 member with meeting in their home and any other ADULT with knowledge of abuse of children by "workers" or "friends."
That includes every ADULT on this board who has the ability to write and speak.
If you dare speak out on this board but have not spoken out about the knowledge you have learned, then you are no different then the "workers" and "friends" you condemn.
It does not matter whether you believe in God or not. This is about human decency.
|
|
|
|
Post by snow on Apr 26, 2019 13:14:46 GMT -5
CSA is a problem for every worker, convention owner, 2x2 member with meeting in their home and any other ADULT with knowledge of abuse of children by "workers" or "friends." That includes every ADULT on this board who has the ability to write and speak. If you dare speak out on this board but have not spoken out about the knowledge you have learned, then you are no different then the "workers" and "friends" you condemn. It does not matter whether you believe in God or not. This is about human decency. I tend to agree with you on this to a point. For someone like me who hasn't had anything to do with real life 2x2's for over 20 years how am I supposed to go to the authorities and accuse someone in the Truth? I have no idea if what is posted here is the truth. The 60 minutes episode happened in Australia and I believe it to be true. I am sure it happens other places because I have heard it does, but I don't have any proof. I don't even suspect anyone, because I don't know anyone anymore. So what exactly do you think I should be doing about it and others like me that no longer have any face to face contact with any of the friends and/or workers? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 15:14:56 GMT -5
CSA is a problem for every worker, convention owner, 2x2 member with meeting in their home and any other ADULT with knowledge of abuse of children by "workers" or "friends." That includes every ADULT on this board who has the ability to write and speak. If you dare speak out on this board but have not spoken out about the knowledge you have learned, then you are no different then the "workers" and "friends" you condemn. It does not matter whether you believe in God or not. This is about human decency. ummm i haven't seen or heard of any pedophile abuse that hasn't already been taken care of and i am NOT gonna go around with a paranoid attitude questioning everyone as to whether or not they are pedophiles with no proof...pedophiles are pretty sneaky i've heard and can go for decades before being caught.... |
|
janj
Senior Member
Posts: 472
|
Post by janj on Apr 26, 2019 15:40:25 GMT -5
CSA is a problem for every worker, convention owner, 2x2 member with meeting in their home and any other ADULT with knowledge of abuse of children by "workers" or "friends." That includes every ADULT on this board who has the ability to write and speak. If you dare speak out on this board but have not spoken out about the knowledge you have learned, then you are no different then the "workers" and "friends" you condemn. It does not matter whether you believe in God or not. This is about human decency. You are 100% correct with that statement. Even more so it is not just responsibility to speak out about the truth or the 2x2s it's a responsibility to speak out about every abuse situation. What we have to remember about these particular cases recorded on 60 Minutes ,was that it happened quite some years ago. CSA was rife in all sorts of groups -church, sports,families and many many times went unreported. If it had been reported would the police have acted? I doubt it.They too were guilty of trivializing abuse. I am not excusing the historical abuse on this program in any way -it was absolutely disgusting, and is possibly only the tip of the iceberg, but to sit back and smugly say it was/is just a 2x2 problem is showing ignorance. Where you have a large number of people from cross section of society in a group, you will have abusers.No group can filter its members to avoid that but it is how they are dealt with that matters. I myself was abused by a family friend who was part of an apparently wonderful little local church group.It came to light later that some of his family knew about his abusing but chose not to say anything. That was not uncommon then. What is important is what groups do about abuse NOW. There is now no excuse for abuse to go unreported or to be covered up. People need to be educated to go immediately to the police. It is very hard to cover something that has been through the courts. With the law on their side, the power is actually in the hands of the people (in ANY group) |
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 26, 2019 15:54:37 GMT -5
CSA is a problem for every worker, convention owner, 2x2 member with meeting in their home and any other ADULT with knowledge of abuse of children by "workers" or "friends." That includes every ADULT on this board who has the ability to write and speak. If you dare speak out on this board but have not spoken out about the knowledge you have learned, then you are no different then the "workers" and "friends" you condemn. It does not matter whether you believe in God or not. This is about human decency. ummm i haven't seen or heard of any pedophile abuse that hasn't already been taken care of and i am NOT gonna go around with a paranoid attitude questioning everyone as to whether or not they are pedophiles with no proof...pedophiles are pretty sneaky i've heard and can go for decades before being caught.... Perhaps I could reword this a bit for you. It's not appropriate for us to play policeman by continually searching for other people's offenses. And I realize that you have not had any reason to report any offender that has been discussed on here. But you should never ever wait for proof of a crime before you report it. Proof is never established except after someone acts on a suspicion and there is an investigation. Unlike you, I have read of pedophile cases on here that had not been taken care of. And of course I had absolutely no proof, and I had absolutely no idea who any of the victims were. And I had no ability or authority to find proof, and no one was prepared to give me proof. So I acted on a suspicion and "kindled" an investigation that ultimately exposed enough truth/proof to merit a life sentence. Hundreds of people had far greater suspicions that I had, but not one of them did anything whatsoever to get a notorious pedophile off the streets -- except me. No one condemned me for doing what I did, but a lot of guilty people claimed credit for what I accomplished. People who feel no responsibility to report suspicions of serious crimes or dangerous problems leave themselves wide open for possibly complicity themselves. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 16:05:02 GMT -5
If you have been out of contact with workers and friends for a long time you could always write a letter to a worker or friend that you knew long ago and express your sadness and disappointment on being made aware of sexual abuse in the "truth."
My problem is with the MANY convention owners, money holders and privileged friends who have known about this problem for years and did not nothing. They made sure their families were aware but not others.
How will convention owner's with businesses look to the "world" if it gets out that they knowingly allowed abusers on their property year after year.
How will it look to your co-workers or boss if they find out you have supported and go to a church that supports and moves abusers around.
How have they claimed to love the souls of their fellow men while allowing the souls of the children to be harmed? Not a very good testimony.
|
|
|
|
Post by Get off of TMB on Apr 26, 2019 17:43:24 GMT -5
Some parents may be afraid to notify authorities lest they be put out of the fellowship...and then go to a lost eternity when they die. The police aren't going to accept this reasoning though. If you allow your children to be abused, you are covering up CSA. You could go to jail or lose custody of your children.
|
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 26, 2019 18:37:40 GMT -5
CSA is a problem for every worker, convention owner, 2x2 member with meeting in their home and any other ADULT with knowledge of abuse of children by "workers" or "friends." That includes every ADULT on this board who has the ability to write and speak. If you dare speak out on this board but have not spoken out about the knowledge you have learned, then you are no different then the "workers" and "friends" you condemn. It does not matter whether you believe in God or not. This is about human decency. I’ve tried several times to tell overseers, stable friends about the issue. I got this “I don’t want to hear adverse things about my peers(worker).” “I just don’t want to hear negative trash against ‘the truth’!”(friend) So what can one do other then be ready to assist the victims? |
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 26, 2019 18:44:57 GMT -5
CSA is a problem for every worker, convention owner, 2x2 member with meeting in their home and any other ADULT with knowledge of abuse of children by "workers" or "friends." That includes every ADULT on this board who has the ability to write and speak. If you dare speak out on this board but have not spoken out about the knowledge you have learned, then you are no different then the "workers" and "friends" you condemn. It does not matter whether you believe in God or not. This is about human decency. You are 100% correct with that statement. Even more so it is not just responsibility to speak out about the truth or the 2x2s it's a responsibility to speak out about every abuse situation. What we have to remember about these particular cases recorded on 60 Minutes ,was that it happened quite some years ago. CSA was rife in all sorts of groups -church, sports,families and many many times went unreported. If it had been reported would the police have acted? I doubt it.They too were guilty of trivializing abuse. I am not excusing the historical abuse on this program in any way -it was absolutely disgusting, and is possibly only the tip of the iceberg, but to sit back and smugly say it was/is just a 2x2 problem is showing ignorance. Where you have a large number of people from cross section of society in a group, you will have abusers.No group can filter its members to avoid that but it is how they are dealt with that matters. I myself was abused by a family friend who was part of an apparently wonderful little local church group.It came to light later that some of his family knew about his abusing but chose not to say anything. That was not uncommon then. What is important is what groups do about abuse NOW. There is now no excuse for abuse to go unreported or to be covered up. People need to be educated to go immediately to the police. It is very hard to cover something that has been through the courts. With the law on their side, the power is actually in the hands of the people (in ANY group) You are right in that there was a time when authorities wouldn’t do anything. When I was raped, I knew if I went to the police that I’d be the ‘guilty’ according to the police. I would have been ruined name wise. And my assaulter would have gone scot free. So I roughed it out even after the assault put me in the hospital. The drs suspected I think, but as I was a nurse, they didn’t question me because they knew I’d be the one who suffered ruin. There are many abuse victims too terrified still yet to speak out for the perpetrators always make them the guilty party in their minds. Something they supposedly done to egg the assault on. How can one deal with that? Until it’s too late? |
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 26, 2019 18:49:52 GMT -5
If you have been out of contact with workers and friends for a long time you could always write a letter to a worker or friend that you knew long ago and express your sadness and disappointment on being made aware of sexual abuse in the "truth." My problem is with the MANY convention owners, money holders and privileged friends who have known about this problem for years and did not nothing. They made sure their families were aware but not others. How will convention owner's with businesses look to the "world" if it gets out that they knowingly allowed abusers on their property year after year. How will it look to your co-workers or boss if they find out you have supported and go to a church that supports and moves abusers around. How have they claimed to love the souls of their fellow men while allowing the souls of the children to be harmed? Not a very good testimony. It’s going to take a lawsuit for convention ground owners to admit the problem. This is likely one reason, the workers are trying to utilize already campground facilities so convention owners don’t have to make that choice. Though the workers aren’t likely aware this puts them in a more liability situation. If someone tries to sue campground owners about a CSA incident, that campground owner can well boomerang it onto the workers who rented the grounds. |
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 26, 2019 18:50:01 GMT -5
Some parents may be afraid to notify authorities lest they be put out of the fellowship...and then go to a lost eternity when they die. The police aren't going to accept this reasoning though. If you allow your children to be abused, you are covering up CSA. You could go to jail or lose custody of your children. Parents who put the reputation of the workers ahead of the safety of their own children are morally bankrupt. |
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 26, 2019 18:51:52 GMT -5
ummm i haven't seen or heard of any pedophile abuse that hasn't already been taken care of and i am NOT gonna go around with a paranoid attitude questioning everyone as to whether or not they are pedophiles with no proof...pedophiles are pretty sneaky i've heard and can go for decades before being caught.... Perhaps I could reword this a bit for you. It's not appropriate for us to play policeman by continually searching for other people's offenses. And I realize that you have not had any reason to report any offender that has been discussed on here. But you should never ever wait for proof of a crime before you report it. Proof is never established except after someone acts on a suspicion and there is an investigation. Unlike you, I have read of pedophile cases on here that had not been taken care of. And of course I had absolutely no proof, and I had absolutely no idea who any of the victims were. And I had no ability or authority to find proof, and no one was prepared to give me proof. So I acted on a suspicion and "kindled" an investigation that ultimately exposed enough truth/proof to merit a life sentence. Hundreds of people had far greater suspicions that I had, but not one of them did anything whatsoever to get a notorious pedophile off the streets -- except me. No one condemned me for doing what I did, but a lot of guilty people claimed credit for what I accomplished. People who feel no responsibility to report suspicions of serious crimes or dangerous problems leave themselves wide open for possibly complicity themselves. Thank you, Bob! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2019 18:53:50 GMT -5
i'm not blaming anyone for their reaction to sexual abuse but its a matter of getting the courage up to report the abuser before he/she does it again to someone else...if that takes going to a doctor or counselor to build up that courage then so be it but do it as quickly as possible...other lives may be affected....
|
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 26, 2019 19:01:46 GMT -5
If you have been out of contact with workers and friends for a long time you could always write a letter to a worker or friend that you knew long ago and express your sadness and disappointment on being made aware of sexual abuse in the "truth." My problem is with the MANY convention owners, money holders and privileged friends who have known about this problem for years and did not nothing. They made sure their families were aware but not others. How will convention owner's with businesses look to the "world" if it gets out that they knowingly allowed abusers on their property year after year. How will it look to your co-workers or boss if they find out you have supported and go to a church that supports and moves abusers around. How have they claimed to love the souls of their fellow men while allowing the souls of the children to be harmed? Not a very good testimony. Most people have no clue how to address a CSA suspicion appropriately. Rule 1 - DO NOT CONTACT the workers. Rule 2 - DO NOT CONTACT the parents of a suspected victim. Rule 3 - DO NOT QUESTION the suspected victim about what happened. Rule 4 - REPORT the SUSPICION to the police. Rule 5 - TELL NO ONE ANYTHING about what you have done, unless you choose to after an investigation is completed. People who do not cooperate with law enforcement cannot expect the protection of law enforcement. No crime gets addressed without someone acting on a suspicion. Even law enforcement are not supposed to act without a suspicion. |
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 26, 2019 19:07:41 GMT -5
i'm not blaming anyone for their reaction to sexual abuse but its a matter of getting the courage up to report the abuser before he/she does it again to someone else...if that takes going to a doctor or counselor to build up that courage then so be it but do it as quickly as possible...other lives may be affected.... You're quite right. The irony, unfortunately, is that so many people who casually hear about these things and talk about these things, are so lacking in moral courage to take the risk of reporting it. |
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on Apr 26, 2019 21:52:28 GMT -5
Some parents may be afraid to notify authorities lest they be put out of the fellowship...and then go to a lost eternity when they die. The police aren't going to accept this reasoning though. If you allow your children to be abused, you are covering up CSA. You could go to jail or lose custody of your children. Abraham was willing to gut his own child to make God happy. For believers, sacrificing your children to God and his messengers isn't just about fear.  |
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on Apr 26, 2019 21:56:52 GMT -5
My problem is with the MANY convention owners, money holders and privileged friends who have known about this problem for years and did not nothing. They made sure their families were aware but not others. How will convention owner's with businesses look to the "world" if it gets out that they knowingly allowed abusers on their property year after year. How will it look to your co-workers or boss if they find out you have supported and go to a church that supports and moves abusers around. How have they claimed to love the souls of their fellow men while allowing the souls of the children to be harmed? Not a very good testimony. Professing people would take exception with the characterization that they "did nothing". We were taught to "take it to God in prayer", "leave it all to Jesus", and "wait on the Lord". If you believe that prayer works, then you have to accept that they did something, engaging the supposedly most powerful force in the universe. |
|
|
|
Post by Dennis J on Apr 26, 2019 22:04:55 GMT -5
Not so sure I agree with your perception of Abraham, sir. IF Abraham did actually believe his God, he knew it was either a test or that his God would raise his son from the dead, for it was through that being (his son) all the nations on earth would be blessed according to what was promised Abraham.
Yeah, I know, I am stupid, but I know what it means to believe my God, not just to believe in Him or not...
DAJ
|
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on Apr 26, 2019 22:23:30 GMT -5
Not so sure I agree with your perception of Abraham, sir. IF Abraham did actually believe his God, he knew it was either a test or that his God would raise his son from the dead, for it was through that being (his son) all the nations on earth would be blessed according to what was promised Abraham.
Yeah, I know, I am stupid, but I know what it means to believe my God, not just to believe in Him or not...
DAJ And 2x2 parents who sacrifice their children to an abusive worker may have similar faith that it is either a test, or that God will heal them and make them forget the abuse. Thank you for helping with the wording. |
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 26, 2019 22:27:10 GMT -5
Not so sure I agree with your perception of Abraham, sir. IF Abraham did actually believe his God, he knew it was either a test or that his God would raise his son from the dead, for it was through that being (his son) all the nations on earth would be blessed according to what was promised Abraham.
Yeah, I know, I am stupid, but I know what it means to believe my God, not just to believe in Him or not...
DAJ Thank you, Denis! The Bible actually says that Abraham said to Isaac, “My Son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering.” But Abraham knew as you said,Denis, that God had promised Abraham that his “seed” should become a great nation. And all the nations of the earth shall be blessed by him. |
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 26, 2019 22:35:01 GMT -5
Not so sure I agree with your perception of Abraham, sir. IF Abraham did actually believe his God, he knew it was either a test or that his God would raise his son from the dead, for it was through that being (his son) all the nations on earth would be blessed according to what was promised Abraham.
Yeah, I know, I am stupid, but I know what it means to believe my God, not just to believe in Him or not...
DAJ And 2x2 parents who sacrifice their children to an abusive worker may have similar faith that it is either a test, or that God will heal them and make them forget the abuse. Thank you for helping with the wording. But the abuse isn’t the same thing as Abraham being tested to sacrifice his son. The child victim isn’t being sacrificed because God requires it. But it’s whole life is ruined due to someone’s lusts. Didn’t Paul say this is the way of sin? Doing things to slake ones lusts? I don’t think it’s the same thing requiring parents to sacrifice their own morality and their children’s lives to slake someone’s lusts. If involving God on this , one needs to think beyond automatic praying about it but realizing that sin and it’s guiding lusts are spoken against in the Bible and God gives us brains to figure this very thing out. I wouldn’t be a bit surprised that parents and perpetrator hiders will face the same judgment in that one of these little ones was offended. Jesus said it’d be better if a milestone was hung around the neck and they tossed into the sea. Didn’t he? No, the sin that coats it all is worshipping the workers and allowing them as humans to dictate what you will and can do versus what you better not do or let the workers find out you’ve done. Cases of not really knowing the Bible but letting someone else tell you what to do that likely doesn’t know the Bible thatcwell either. |
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Apr 26, 2019 22:41:17 GMT -5
Not so sure I agree with your perception of Abraham, sir. IF Abraham did actually believe his God, he knew it was either a test or that his God would raise his son from the dead, for it was through that being (his son) all the nations on earth would be blessed according to what was promised Abraham.
Yeah, I know, I am stupid, but I know what it means to believe my God, not just to believe in Him or not...
DAJ And 2x2 parents who sacrifice their children to an abusive worker may have similar faith that it is either a test, or that God will heal them and make them forget the abuse. Thank you for helping with the wording. I had to have a stressful discussion with a worker one day. She was attempting to apologize to me for all the friends who were causing problems for me. I sternly corrected her by telling her the only people who were warning the friends about me were workers -- including some I'd never met in several states where I'd never been. Her comforting advice: Just wait for a while and the friends will forget anything the workers
have said about you. The previous Sunday morning she had interrupted her sermon to chastise my wife for trying to interrupt her sermon.  |
|
|
|
Post by Dennis J on Apr 26, 2019 23:07:30 GMT -5
Another point regarding Issac. He was not the small child the illustration wrongfully attempts to make, for it says he was able to carry enough wood to consume the sacrifice to be offered. Fallacies in reasoning have been around for a long long time...!
|
|
|
|
Post by joanna on Apr 26, 2019 23:49:58 GMT -5
How do christians continue to justify their belief in a benevolent, all-powerful, all-knowing god when child sex abuse is prevalent in christian churches/sects? Whilst this recommended article How the bible shapes attitudes to sexual assault focuses on the sexual abuse of women, many of the same attitudes apply to the abuse of children, including the repeated displays of power over the submissive and vulnerable in the bible; the blaming of the innocent: 'we are born sinners'; the disregard for human rights; the encouragement to be meek and mild and compliant; the violent raging and murderous actions of the Hebrew god / christian god. The hierarchy and male dominance is a common thread in most christian churches, even ex-members of the evangelical church have written about this. Then we have children who are coerced to adopt the faith belief of their parents. This reinforces submissive obedience and for the child to suspend their innate potential for reason. Religiosity is a cauldron for abuse. Other facilities which afford power and control to their leaders are also but the claims made by christianity are completely incongruent with the fact that the children in these churches are at greater risk of being horribly abused. If Jesus' teachings were as effective as claimed, there would be no abuse. If the god of the christians had all the attributes the faithful claim he has, why are children of christian parents having their lives ruined? And if this god was all-powerful and had a positive impact in the lives of believers, why is the law required to stop the abusers? I have read trite comments throughout this forum about those who believe they have had their prayers answered by their god. How dare you claim this whilst little children are being abused? Or are these children sending the wrong prayers?
|
|
|
|
Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 27, 2019 0:32:03 GMT -5
Children are not sending the wrong prayers.
However God has given most people brains and ability to love those less able to fend or defend themselves. But the world has turned itself into reprobates because sex is the big thing in life. One way or another. All this talk about sexual needs and rights has been blown out of proportion to the emotional and mental stability of humans on earth.
We cannot blame God for people letting their own lusts and the lusts of others trespass upon others. But with hardened hearts and reprobated minds, what can they do? They may pray but their prayers are misplaced for it’s all about their lusts. Those kind of prayers don’t even get through the roof of the building they’re praying in, much less pass through the firmament into heaven or Venus either!
|
|
|
|
Post by Dennis J on Apr 27, 2019 0:59:01 GMT -5
It is pretty easy to see who’s parents taught them correctly, God is a Spirit and who taught their children incorrectly God that is kind of like an unseen Santy Claus, somewhere, and there for their children’s natural good and welfare. No wonder so many grow up unable to even comprehend His Being and Existence. Sad that even as a parent, I, too, like so many was too soon old, too late wise.
|
|
|
|
Post by Grant on Apr 27, 2019 1:39:59 GMT -5
Joanna, you talk like sexual abuse only occurs amongst those with a religious belief. Sexual abuse occurs by those from all walks of life, religious and non religious.
|
|
janj
Senior Member
Posts: 472
|
Post by janj on Apr 27, 2019 1:52:09 GMT -5
How do christians continue to justify their belief in a benevolent, all-powerful, all-knowing god when child sex abuse is prevalent in christian churches/sects? Whilst this recommended article How the bible shapes attitudes to sexual assault focuses on the sexual abuse of women, many of the same attitudes apply to the abuse of children, including the repeated displays of power over the submissive and vulnerable in the bible; the blaming of the innocent: 'we are born sinners'; the disregard for human rights; the encouragement to be meek and mild and compliant; the violent raging and murderous actions of the Hebrew god / christian god. The hierarchy and male dominance is a common thread in most christian churches, even ex-members of the evangelical church have written about this. Then we have children who are coerced to adopt the faith belief of their parents. This reinforces submissive obedience and for the child to suspend their innate potential for reason. Religiosity is a cauldron for abuse. Other facilities which afford power and control to their leaders are also but the claims made by christianity are completely incongruent with the fact that the children in these churches are at greater risk of being horribly abused. If Jesus' teachings were as effective as claimed, there would be no abuse. If the god of the christians had all the attributes the faithful claim he has, why are children of christian parents having their lives ruined? And if this god was all-powerful and had a positive impact in the lives of believers, why is the law required to stop the abusers? I have read trite comments throughout this forum about those who believe they have had their prayers answered by their god. How dare you claim this whilst little children are being abused? Or are these children sending the wrong prayers? 1. Abuse is found in many many groups -dports,school,church,family...It is not just a church problem - it is a problem for all society. Those that say they are Christian's and those that Gods says are Chridtisns could be very different!! |
|
