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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2019 3:54:19 GMT -5
Joanne, you talk like sexual abuse only occurs amongst those with a religious belief. Sexual abuse occurs by those from all walks of life, religious and non religious. You make a point. However, it is true that religions, especially monotheistic religions, are notorious for promoting taboos relating to sex -- and there is nothing that promotes "offending" more than the denial of normal human appetites. That increases the prevalence of SECRET alternative (thus taboo) sexual activities, that would otherwise be perfectly normal - were one not being policed by religious dogma. No, I'm not defending child molestation. But it's an easy alternative when consenting partners are limited.
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Post by joanna on Apr 27, 2019 4:12:51 GMT -5
Grant . My above comment "Religiosity is a cauldron for abuse. Other facilities which afford power and control to their leaders are also but the claims made by christianity are completely incongruent with the fact that the children in these churches are at greater risk of being horribly abused" recognises that CSA occurs in other facilities/institutions but i stand by the assertion that there is a greater incidence in religious facilities/institutions and the following quote from the Royal Commission supports this: We have examined a broad range of institutions – from schools to Scouts, from the YMCA to sporting and dance clubs, from Defence training establishments to a range of out-of-home care services. We have considered institutions managed by federal, state and territory governments as well as non-government organisations. It is clear that child sexual abuse has occurred in a broad range of institutional contexts across Australia, and over many decades. However, we heard more allegations of child sexual abuse in relation to institutions managed by religious organisations than any other management type.
More than 4,000 survivors told us in private sessions that they were sexually abused as children in religious institutions. The abuse occurred in religious schools, orphanages and missions, churches, presbyteries and rectories, confessionals, and various other settings. In private sessions we heard about child sexual abuse occurring in 1,691 different religious institutions. The sexual abuse took many forms, including rape. It was often accompanied by physical or emotional abuse. Most victims were aged between 10 and 14 years when the abuse first started. . Reference: Royal Commission CSA in religious institutionssharingtheriches . This does not answer why children are the victims and the god you believe is all-powerful, benevolent and caring and all-knowing fails to intervene. What is the use of a god who is inert? It is reasonable to believe that the children in christian churches who are being sexually assaulted would be desperately praying for help, so why are their prayers ignored? janj . Please refer to the first paragraph of this comment as i did recognise CSA occurs in other groups however my claim that 'religiosity is a cauldron for CSA' is supported by the findings of the Royal Commission. Your comment that 'those who say they are christians and those that Gods say are christians could be very different' is another example of an ineffectual and absent god. Why the confusion? If people are convinced they are following god, but are judged by other christians to be failing in this endeavour, then why doesn't god inform them they are on the wrong path? And when those on this forum accuse other christians of belonging to a false belief, they are acting as if they know the mind of god, yet they cannot evidence their own truth claims.
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Post by slowtosee on Apr 27, 2019 9:39:22 GMT -5
How do christians continue to justify their belief in a benevolent, all-powerful, all-knowing god when child sex abuse is prevalent in christian churches/sects? Whilst this recommended article How the bible shapes attitudes to sexual assault focuses on the sexual abuse of women, many of the same attitudes apply to the abuse of children, including the repeated displays of power over the submissive and vulnerable in the bible; the blaming of the innocent: 'we are born sinners'; the disregard for human rights; the encouragement to be meek and mild and compliant; the violent raging and murderous actions of the Hebrew god / christian god. The hierarchy and male dominance is a common thread in most christian churches, even ex-members of the evangelical church have written about this. Then we have children who are coerced to adopt the faith belief of their parents. This reinforces submissive obedience and for the child to suspend their innate potential for reason. Religiosity is a cauldron for abuse. Other facilities which afford power and control to their leaders are also but the claims made by christianity are completely incongruent with the fact that the children in these churches are at greater risk of being horribly abused. If Jesus' teachings were as effective as claimed, there would be no abuse. If the god of the christians had all the attributes the faithful claim he has, why are children of christian parents having their lives ruined? And if this god was all-powerful and had a positive impact in the lives of believers, why is the law required to stop the abusers? I have read trite comments throughout this forum about those who believe they have had their prayers answered by their god. How dare you claim this whilst little children are being abused? Or are these children sending the wrong prayers? Do we really think that belief or non belief in a god is responsible for sexual misconduct ? Really ? Is it fair for unbelievers to point to believers and their institutions as the problem or vice versa ? It is a human problem. If only people who belonged to a group that had no misconduct, amongst them were encouraged to speak up , there would be total silence . Joanna , if you followed that code , you would also need to be silent , and thst would be a loss . We ALL live in glass houses . Alvin religionnews.com/2018/04/16/american-atheists-terminates-its-president-over-sexual-misconduct-allegations/Reaction in the atheism community has been glum. Kevin Bolling, the executive director of Secular Student Alliance, said in a statement that SSA “fully support(s) the courageous and brave women and men who have come forward to tell their own stories and support and share witness to those who have been deeply affected.” Users of social media have not minced words. Some on Twitter have gleefully cheered Silverman’s plight, others have sadly lamented it, while still others have been more reflective. “There’s an epidemic of sexism, sexual harassment & assault in movement atheism,” Kristi Winters, an atheist and feminist activist said on Twitter. “Attacking credible accusers isn’t a solution, it’s protecting rape culture. Are atheists good w/out gods? Prove it.” www.google.ca/amp/s/qz.com/613270/brazen-sexism-is-pushing-women-out-of-americas-atheism-movement/amp/
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 27, 2019 10:37:24 GMT -5
Grant . My above comment "Religiosity is a cauldron for abuse. Other facilities which afford power and control to their leaders are also but the claims made by christianity are completely incongruent with the fact that the children in these churches are at greater risk of being horribly abused" recognises that CSA occurs in other facilities/institutions but i stand by the assertion that there is a greater incidence in religious facilities/institutions and the following quote from the Royal Commission supports this: We have examined a broad range of institutions – from schools to Scouts, from the YMCA to sporting and dance clubs, from Defence training establishments to a range of out-of-home care services. We have considered institutions managed by federal, state and territory governments as well as non-government organisations. It is clear that child sexual abuse has occurred in a broad range of institutional contexts across Australia, and over many decades. However, we heard more allegations of child sexual abuse in relation to institutions managed by religious organisations than any other management type.
More than 4,000 survivors told us in private sessions that they were sexually abused as children in religious institutions. The abuse occurred in religious schools, orphanages and missions, churches, presbyteries and rectories, confessionals, and various other settings. In private sessions we heard about child sexual abuse occurring in 1,691 different religious institutions. The sexual abuse took many forms, including rape. It was often accompanied by physical or emotional abuse. Most victims were aged between 10 and 14 years when the abuse first started. . Reference: Royal Commission CSA in religious institutionssharingtheriches . This does not answer why children are the victims and the god you believe is all-powerful, benevolent and caring and all-knowing fails to intervene. What is the use of a god who is inert? It is reasonable to believe that the children in christian churches who are being sexually assaulted would be desperately praying for help, so why are their prayers ignored? janj . Please refer to the first paragraph of this comment as i did recognise CSA occurs in other groups however my claim that 'religiosity is a cauldron for CSA' is supported by the findings of the Royal Commission. Your comment that 'those who say they are christians and those that Gods say are christians could be very different' is another example of an ineffectual and absent god. Why the confusion? If people are convinced they are following god, but are judged by other christians to be failing in this endeavour, then why doesn't god inform them they are on the wrong path? And when those on this forum accuse other christians of belonging to a false belief, they are acting as if they know the mind of god, yet they cannot evidence their own truth claims. It’s mighty convenient to blame your “inert god”. But the answer is in the Bible, of course you don’t believe the Bible so expecting you to understand that is a moot point! The Bible says that God gives people over to “reprobate minds”. If that isn’t covering the “cause” of trespassing against one another, then again you don’t understand the Bible. Giving into unnatural or crude lusts isn’t the way God created mankind. That comes from reprobated minds. The Bible also says that everyone shall be judged for their deeds. Jesus said that anyone who offends the little ones(or aids and abets such) that it would be better that a milestone be tied around their neck and cast into the sea. However no one takes Jesus’ word on that because they want to interpret that to mean the “little ones” to be those who believe in Jesus, only. But we have instances where Jesus takes up for the children even against his own apostles.
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Post by snow on Apr 27, 2019 12:26:15 GMT -5
If you have been out of contact with workers and friends for a long time you could always write a letter to a worker or friend that you knew long ago and express your sadness and disappointment on being made aware of sexual abuse in the "truth." My problem is with the MANY convention owners, money holders and privileged friends who have known about this problem for years and did not nothing. They made sure their families were aware but not others. How will convention owner's with businesses look to the "world" if it gets out that they knowingly allowed abusers on their property year after year. How will it look to your co-workers or boss if they find out you have supported and go to a church that supports and moves abusers around. How have they claimed to love the souls of their fellow men while allowing the souls of the children to be harmed? Not a very good testimony. I suppose I could do that. I do not have any contact with the workers and have no idea how to reach them anymore. Not even sure who might still be alive. I haven't been in contact for quite awhile. I do know a couple of the friends still, but they don't live where I do and we just keep track of each other on facebook. I happen to know that at least one of them is very involved in making changes to the csa problem. I applaud their work in this area. I suppose I could get an address of a worker to write to from them. Maybe I will.
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Post by snow on Apr 27, 2019 12:37:06 GMT -5
Abraham was willing to kill his son because he thought God wanted him too. The bible story says he didn't have to in the end. But the fact that he was willing to is what horrifies me. I worked in corrections and I have met people that have done exactly that, killed their children because they thought god told them to. Unfortunately for those children god didn't provide a substitute sacrifice. It's a dangerous story for unbalanced people to believe in. So far God hasn't intervened in any of these real life instances and provided the parent with a substitute. I'm pretty sure the story in the OT is just an analogy to show absolute faith, but it's a dangerous one because there is always going to be someone that takes it literally and is unbalanced enough to carry through.
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Post by matisse on Apr 27, 2019 12:59:57 GMT -5
Grant . My above comment "Religiosity is a cauldron for abuse. Other facilities which afford power and control to their leaders are also but the claims made by christianity are completely incongruent with the fact that the children in these churches are at greater risk of being horribly abused" recognises that CSA occurs in other facilities/institutions but i stand by the assertion that there is a greater incidence in religious facilities/institutions and the following quote from the Royal Commission supports this: We have examined a broad range of institutions – from schools to Scouts, from the YMCA to sporting and dance clubs, from Defence training establishments to a range of out-of-home care services. We have considered institutions managed by federal, state and territory governments as well as non-government organisations. It is clear that child sexual abuse has occurred in a broad range of institutional contexts across Australia, and over many decades. However, we heard more allegations of child sexual abuse in relation to institutions managed by religious organisations than any other management type.
More than 4,000 survivors told us in private sessions that they were sexually abused as children in religious institutions. The abuse occurred in religious schools, orphanages and missions, churches, presbyteries and rectories, confessionals, and various other settings. In private sessions we heard about child sexual abuse occurring in 1,691 different religious institutions. The sexual abuse took many forms, including rape. It was often accompanied by physical or emotional abuse. Most victims were aged between 10 and 14 years when the abuse first started. . Reference: Royal Commission CSA in religious institutionssharingtheriches . This does not answer why children are the victims and the god you believe is all-powerful, benevolent and caring and all-knowing fails to intervene. What is the use of a god who is inert? It is reasonable to believe that the children in christian churches who are being sexually assaulted would be desperately praying for help, so why are their prayers ignored? janj . Please refer to the first paragraph of this comment as i did recognise CSA occurs in other groups however my claim that 'religiosity is a cauldron for CSA' is supported by the findings of the Royal Commission. Your comment that 'those who say they are christians and those that Gods say are christians could be very different' is another example of an ineffectual and absent god. Why the confusion? If people are convinced they are following god, but are judged by other christians to be failing in this endeavour, then why doesn't god inform them they are on the wrong path? And when those on this forum accuse other christians of belonging to a false belief, they are acting as if they know the mind of god, yet they cannot evidence their own truth claims. It’s mighty convenient to blame your “inert god”. But the answer is in the Bible, of course you don’t believe the Bible so expecting you to understand that is a moot point! The Bible says that God gives people over to “reprobate minds”. If that isn’t covering the “cause” of trespassing against one another, then again you don’t understand the Bible. Giving into unnatural or crude lusts isn’t the way God created mankind. That comes from reprobated minds.The Bible also says that everyone shall be judged for their deeds. Jesus said that anyone who offends the little ones(or aids and abets such) that it would be better that a milestone be tied around their neck and cast into the sea. However no one takes Jesus’ word on that because they want to interpret that to mean the “little ones” to be those who believe in Jesus, only. But we have instances where Jesus takes up for the children even against his own apostles. Of course, there are excuses for the God of the Bible written into the Bible. There were "gaps in His performance" back then as well. So chalk up the ineptitude of God to Him "giving people over to a reprobate mind" so he can remain "all powerful" while human beings who believe in him go off the rails. Always an excuse for God. Endless Apologism.
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Post by Get off of TMB on Apr 27, 2019 14:36:41 GMT -5
The Boy Scouts have a horrible record of handing CSA also. It isn't easy to report a good friend to authorities but doing the right thing isn't always easy.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 27, 2019 15:39:05 GMT -5
It’s mighty convenient to blame your “inert god”. But the answer is in the Bible, of course you don’t believe the Bible so expecting you to understand that is a moot point! The Bible says that God gives people over to “reprobate minds”. If that isn’t covering the “cause” of trespassing against one another, then again you don’t understand the Bible. Giving into unnatural or crude lusts isn’t the way God created mankind. That comes from reprobated minds.The Bible also says that everyone shall be judged for their deeds. Jesus said that anyone who offends the little ones(or aids and abets such) that it would be better that a milestone be tied around their neck and cast into the sea. However no one takes Jesus’ word on that because they want to interpret that to mean the “little ones” to be those who believe in Jesus, only. But we have instances where Jesus takes up for the children even against his own apostles. Of course, there are excuses for the God of the Bible written into the Bible. There were "gaps in His performance" back then as well. So chalk up the ineptitude of God to Him "giving people over to a reprobate mind" so he can remain "all powerful" while human beings who believe in him go off the rails. Always an excuse for God. Endless Apologism. Weren’t humans created with brains, capabilities of emotion(love), understanding, knowing how they themselves want to be treated etc? It isn’t an excuse for God! For Pete sake! It’s just that it gives some people someone to blame for individual’s aberrant behaviors, only in life for themselves. Why do you think people have made laws concerning this? If people can’t discipline their own behavior, then society has its rules and laws. Thus perpetrators have to suffer penalties for their crimes. That’s evident in God giving Moses the Mosaic law and that’s due to trespassing on one another. Live lawless, get laws pressed on you! God created that for examples for mankind to use as guidelines to temper the lawless. God did what he could. It’s up to us now to purport loving our neighbors as ourselves!
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Post by matisse on Apr 27, 2019 17:09:58 GMT -5
Of course, there are excuses for the God of the Bible written into the Bible. There were "gaps in His performance" back then as well. So chalk up the ineptitude of God to Him "giving people over to a reprobate mind" so he can remain "all powerful" while human beings who believe in him go off the rails. Always an excuse for God. Endless Apologism. Weren’t humans created with brains, capabilities of emotion(love), understanding, knowing how they themselves want to be treated etc? It isn’t an excuse for God! For Pete sake! It’s just that it gives some people someone to blame for individual’s aberrant behaviors, only in life for themselves. Why do you think people have made laws concerning this? If people can’t discipline their own behavior, then society has its rules and laws. Thus perpetrators have to suffer penalties for their crimes. That’s evident in God giving Moses the Mosaic law and that’s due to trespassing on one another. Live lawless, get laws pressed on you! God created that for examples for mankind to use as guidelines to temper the lawless. God did what he could. It’s up to us now to purport loving our neighbors as ourselves! The all powerful god shrugs his shoulders. "What more could I do?"
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2019 17:10:44 GMT -5
We have examined a broad range of institutions – from schools to Scouts, from the YMCA to sporting and dance clubs, from Defence training establishments to a range of out-of-home care services. We have considered institutions managed by federal, state and territory governments as well as non-government organisations. It is clear that child sexual abuse has occurred in a broad range of institutional contexts across Australia, and over many decades. However, we heard more allegations of child sexual abuse in relation to institutions managed by religious organisations than any other management type.
More than 4,000 survivors told us in private sessions that they were sexually abused as children in religious institutions. The abuse occurred in religious schools, orphanages and missions, churches, presbyteries and rectories, confessionals, and various other settings. In private sessions we heard about child sexual abuse occurring in 1,691 different religious institutions. The sexual abuse took many forms, including rape. It was often accompanied by physical or emotional abuse. Most victims were aged between 10 and 14 years when the abuse first started. . Reference: Royal Commission CSA in religious institutions The unique thing about religious groups is that they have a far greater interest in sheltering offenders than most other organizations. Their profession is that their whole purpose is to turn people away from such offenses.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2019 17:20:11 GMT -5
However no one takes Jesus’ word on that because they want to interpret that to mean the “little ones” to be those who believe in Jesus, only. But we have instances where Jesus takes up for the children even against his own apostles. I think the outrage comes not because of the risk of having someone offend -- the bigger outrage comes because of the "righteous" who will not expose the offenders in defense of the children, as you say Jesus did.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2019 17:22:01 GMT -5
The Boy Scouts have a horrible record of handing CSA also. It isn't easy to report a good friend to authorities but doing the right thing isn't always easy. And the Boy Scouts snuggle tightly into the folds of denominational care.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 17:28:59 GMT -5
Weren’t humans created with brains, capabilities of emotion(love), understanding, knowing how they themselves want to be treated etc? It isn’t an excuse for God! For Pete sake! It’s just that it gives some people someone to blame for individual’s aberrant behaviors, only in life for themselves. Why do you think people have made laws concerning this? If people can’t discipline their own behavior, then society has its rules and laws. Thus perpetrators have to suffer penalties for their crimes. That’s evident in God giving Moses the Mosaic law and that’s due to trespassing on one another. Live lawless, get laws pressed on you! God created that for examples for mankind to use as guidelines to temper the lawless. God did what he could. It’s up to us now to purport loving our neighbors as ourselves! The all powerful god shrugs his shoulders. "What more could I do?" God interferes(OT) hes damned God doesn't interfere(NT) hes damned....
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2019 17:30:49 GMT -5
The all powerful god shrugs his shoulders. "What more could I do?" God interferes(OT) hes damned God doesn't interfere(NT) hes damned.... Poor god.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 27, 2019 18:40:27 GMT -5
Weren’t humans created with brains, capabilities of emotion(love), understanding, knowing how they themselves want to be treated etc? It isn’t an excuse for God! For Pete sake! It’s just that it gives some people someone to blame for individual’s aberrant behaviors, only in life for themselves. Why do you think people have made laws concerning this? If people can’t discipline their own behavior, then society has its rules and laws. Thus perpetrators have to suffer penalties for their crimes. That’s evident in God giving Moses the Mosaic law and that’s due to trespassing on one another. Live lawless, get laws pressed on you! God created that for examples for mankind to use as guidelines to temper the lawless. God did what he could. It’s up to us now to purport loving our neighbors as ourselves! The all powerful god shrugs his shoulders. "What more could I do?" He could change us all into blithering idiots! But wasnt his purpose in creating mankind.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 27, 2019 18:44:29 GMT -5
However no one takes Jesus’ word on that because they want to interpret that to mean the “little ones” to be those who believe in Jesus, only. But we have instances where Jesus takes up for the children even against his own apostles. I think the outrage comes not because of the risk of having someone offend -- the bigger outrage comes because of the "righteous" who will not expose the offenders in defense of the children, as you say Jesus did. I agree! That’s why I say those who are saying, doing nothing when they could are aided and abetted and I think that is as much an offense against the victims as the initial offense. So I’d wouldn’t be surprised that the milestone around their neck and a deep sea awaits them as well! That’s what I meant when people aren’t thinking Jesus’ words through. It says he’d come with a double-edged sword in his mouth. I believe he already had in a lot of instances.
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Post by Admin on Apr 27, 2019 19:05:29 GMT -5
It’s mighty convenient to blame your “inert god”. But the answer is in the Bible, of course you don’t believe the Bible so expecting you to understand that is a moot point! The Bible says that God gives people over to “reprobate minds”. If that isn’t covering the “cause” of trespassing against one another, then again you don’t understand the Bible. Giving into unnatural or crude lusts isn’t the way God created mankind. That comes from reprobated minds. The Bible also says that everyone shall be judged for their deeds. Jesus said that anyone who offends the little ones (or aids and abets such) that it would be better that a millstone be tied around their neck and cast into the sea. However no one takes Jesus’ word on that because they want to interpret that to mean the “little ones” to be those who believe in Jesus, only. But we have instances where Jesus takes up for the children even against his own apostles. Colossians ch.213 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Colossians ch.3Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3 For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. 5 Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7 You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived. 8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. The verse you quote about "reprobate minds" (in NIV, "depraved mind", v.28): Romans ch.118 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities — his eternal power and divine nature — have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator — who is forever praised. 28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice.
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Post by joanna on Apr 27, 2019 19:24:51 GMT -5
Admin . How do those verses support your and other christians' belief that the god of the bible is all-loving, all-powerful and a protector when the fact is the abuse of children is prevalent within christian churches of all denominations?
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Post by Dennis J on Apr 27, 2019 21:45:46 GMT -5
When siblings fight, the elder bullying the younger, the younger telling on the elder, and so on...do you not only blame the parent, but condemn them as you do God? Is that reflective of wisdom?
For myself, I find nothing in scripture to blame God for my error, my sibling’s mistakes, or parents lack of honesty, integrity or intention. Do you? Yet you blame God because He gave you the freedom to do so? Not what I either wish, plan, nor intend to do. It is clear to me that if you wish to do so, that is what you will do, much like flag burners. I served to give them the right to do so, NOT to burn one myself in protest objection to the freedom given me to do so.
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Post by matisse on Apr 27, 2019 21:54:13 GMT -5
Excusing "God" for the ways in which "he" doesn't show up is the realm of the Bible and its believers.
For me, there is no supernatural entity to "blame" (or praise) for the ways in which human beings behave like human beings.
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Post by openingact34 on Apr 27, 2019 22:25:50 GMT -5
Another point regarding Issac. He was not the small child the illustration wrongfully attempts to make, for it says he was able to carry enough wood to consume the sacrifice to be offered. Fallacies in reasoning have been around for a long long time...! The mythology we are raised on is intended to rationalize certain behaviors and thought processes. These continued rationalizations are very much relevant and on-topic because we can see how the thought processes ultimate shape the reaction to CSA cases: "It's not so bad if he's not so young...". or "Well, he didn't actually end up going through with it. He just tied the child down and ...." As the original poster said, "This is about human decency". If we can break free of the brainwashing, we learn to empathize with the victims. An outsider reading the account would empathize with and have concern for the child who was tied down and watched his father try to kill him. How could he ever trust again? What would the mental anguish and damage be?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2019 22:50:35 GMT -5
I think, if we are to say that the religious beliefs of an organization are non-factors in CSA (being a problem of human decency or lack thereof), we ought to at least admit that the virtuous things that religious organizations accomplish are not owing to the religious beliefs they hold (but rather a benefit of basic human altruism). This seems the most intellectually honest path to me.
The religious beliefs therefore become irrelevant in terms of how virtuous a human is, which saves us all the bother of keeping two different weights of justice in our already full minds.
Then, CSA becomes horrifying and indefensible in all and any case, and the perpetrator a monster regardless of which version of which invisible being he/she speaks to.
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Post by joanna on Apr 27, 2019 23:01:00 GMT -5
@ipsedixit . The virtuous things accomplished in the name of religion need to be critiqued to determine how helpful they are. I don't deny that religious organisations can be altruistic however some of their charitable actions are a form of emotional blackmail and intended to pressure the recipients to convert. Other seemingly virtuous actions actually disempower women and members of minority groups and underneath their charitable facade, they are doing more harm than good.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 27, 2019 23:02:46 GMT -5
Excusing "God" for the ways in which "he" doesn't show up is the realm of the Bible and its believers. For me, there is no supernatural entity to "blame" (or praise) for the ways in which human beings behave like human beings. Strange, it sure seemed like you’ve been blaming God for not doing something.
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Post by matisse on Apr 27, 2019 23:04:18 GMT -5
I think, if we are to say that the religious beliefs of an organization are non-factors in CSA (being a problem of human decency or lack thereof), we ought to at least admit that the virtuous things that religious organizations accomplish are not owing to the religious beliefs they hold (but rather a benefit of basic human altruism). This seems the most intellectually honest path to me. The religious beliefs therefore become irrelevant in terms of how virtuous a human is, which saves us all the bother of keeping two different weights of justice in our already full minds. Then, CSA becomes horrifying and indefensible in all and any case, and the perpetrator a monster regardless of which version of which invisible being he/she speaks to. This.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Apr 27, 2019 23:05:01 GMT -5
@ipsedixit . The virtuous things accomplished in the name of religion need to be critiqued to determine how helpful they are. I don't deny that religious organisations can be altruistic however some of their charitable actions are a form of emotional blackmail and intended to pressure the recipients to convert. Other seemingly virtuous actions actually disempower women and members of minority groups and underneath their charitable facade, they are doing more harm than good.Talk about blackmail! Atheists on TMB do a good job with this downing people with faith in God as being mentally deficient in some way!
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Post by matisse on Apr 27, 2019 23:07:26 GMT -5
Excusing "God" for the ways in which "he" doesn't show up is the realm of the Bible and its believers. For me, there is no supernatural entity to "blame" (or praise) for the ways in which human beings behave like human beings. Strange, it sure seemed like you’ve been blaming God for not doing something. No, I've been saying that the Bible and people like you offer no end of excuses for your god. Why would I "blame" something I don't believe exists?
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