Answer to Jondough about Rev. Parker.

[CherieKropp]

Bert wrote:  Omissions -  Irvine's sister's church. 

Irvine's sister is mentioned right in Paragraph 1, Page 1 of Secret Sect: 

William Irvine who founded the worldwide nameless house sect, was born at Newtown, Kilsyth. Scotland, in 1863. He was educated at Kilsyth Academy, became an engineer and managed Bothwell Palace Colliery. When Irvine was about thirty the death of his sister motivated an interest in religion. He said he was converted at Motherwell town hall after he heard a challenging address by the Rev. John McNeill, a Presbyterian evangelist, and in order to prepare himself for Christian service he attended John Anderson's Bible College in Glasgow for a short time. (1c)

(1c) Peter Comrie, William Irvine's Brother-in-law, transcript of personal interview, made in Kilsyth, November 1954.

Until George Gittins came along many years later, telling the story about Irvine's sister going to meetings in someones house and Irvine joining them was not found in any documents. No account of Gittins is dated that I have seen.  His story conflicts with the very person (Rob Darling) who he says told it to him, according to professor Rolfe, who transported Darling around and discussed the matter with him.

See Gittins' Acount at:  www.tellingthetruth.info/history_articles/hearfrom.php#GITTINS

  

[CherieKropp]

 

Are the Two by Twos Really Unique?

WEBSTER'S DEFINITION of UNIQUE

u-nique (yoo-neek') adj.
1. one and only; single; sole.
2. having no like or equal; unparalleled.
3. highly unusual, extraordinary, rare, etc.

Similarities To Other Churches:

• Church in the Home:
1. Plymouth Brethren (1829) Darby, England
2. British Brethren (1820's) British Isles
3. Yorker Brethren (1843) York County, PA
4. Christadelphians (1844) Thomas, USA
5. Old Order Amish (1720) Switzerland
6. The Church Which is Christ's Body (1925) Johnson
7. The Way International (1942) Weirville, OH
8. Lumber River Annual Conference of the Holiness Methodist Church (1900)
9. The Apostolic Faith (1907) Crawford, OR
10. Community of Catholic Churches (1971)
11. Mormon Polygamist (1852) Smith, MO, UT
12. Children of God (1970) Berg, CA
13. Quaker (1652) Fox, England
14. The Local Church (1962) Lee, Korea, USA
15. Faith Mission (1886) Govan, Scotland
16. Two-by-Two's (1897) Wm Irvine, Ireland
Click Here for Links to Other Home Churches.

• No Official Earthly Headquarters or Organization:
1. Primitive Baptists (1827) USA
2. Berean Fundamental (1936) NE
3. Gospel Assemblies (1907)
4. The Church Which Is Christ's Body (1925)
5. Jehovah's Witnesses (1872) Russell, PA
6. Churches of Christ (1906) Campbell, USA
7. Faith Mission (1886) Govan, Scotland
8. Two-by-Two's (1897) Wm Irvine, Ireland
.
• No Collections:
1. Apostolic Faith (1907) Crawford, OR
2. Primitive Baptist (1827) USA
3. Bible Protestant Church (1939) East USA
4. Plymouth Brethren (1829) Darby, England
5. Jehovah Witness (1872) Russell, PA
6. Children of God (1970) Berg, CA
7. Faith Mission (1886) Govan, Scotland
8. Two-by-Two's (1897) Wm Irvine, Ireland
.
• Itinerant Ministry:
1. United Christian Church (1862) Hoffman, PA
2. The Church Which is Christ's Body (1925)
3. Lumber River Annual Conference of the Holiness Methodist Church (1900)
4. The Apostolic Faith (1907) Crawford, OR
5. 17th Century Quaker
6. Original Methodists (1738) Wesley, England
7. Children of God (1970) Berg, CA
8. Plymouth Brethren (1829) Darby, England
9. Faith Mission (1886) Govan, Scotland
10.Two-by-Two's (1897) Wm Irvine, Ireland
.
• Unpaid Clergy:
1. Apostolic Christian Church of America (1847)
2. Christadelphians (1844)
3. Primitive Baptists (1827) USA
4. Old Order Dunkers (1881) OH, IN, PA
5. Plymouth Brethren (1829) Darby, England
6. Reformed Mennonites (1812) PA
7. The Church Which Is Christ's Body (1925)
8. Old German Baptists Brethren (1881)
9. Gospel Mission (1962) Tartan
10. Quakers (1652) Fox, England
11. Two-Seed-In-The Spirit Predestination Baptist (1775) USA
12. Children of God (1970) Berg, CA
13. Original Methodists (1729) Wesley, England
14. Jehovah's Witnesses (1872) Russell, PA
15. Faith Mission (1886) Govan, Scotland
16. Two-by-Two's (1897) Wm Irvine, Ireland
.
• Non-Denominational Intent; Name Forced Upon Them by Others:
1. Primitive Baptists (1827) USA
2. Plymouth Brethren (1827) Darby, England
3. Christadelphians (1844)
4. Gospel Assemblies (1907)
5. The Church Which Is Christ's Body (1925)
6. Christian Congregation (1887) IN
7. Mennonites (1536) Simons, Netherlands
8. Children of God (1970) Berg, CA
9. Quaker (1652) Fox, England
10. Two-by-Two's (1897) Wm Irvine, Ireland
.
• Non-Ordained, Untrained Ministry:
1. Amana Church Society (1854) Germany
2. Apostolic Christian Church of America (1847)
3. Primitive Baptists (1827) USA
4. Berean Fundamental (1936) NE
5. Plymouth Brethren (1829) Darby, England
6. Christadelphians (1844)
7. Old Order Amish (1720)
8. The Church Which Is Christ's Body (1925)
9. Children of God (1970) Berg, CA
10. Jehovah's Witnesses (1872) Russell, PA
11. Faith Mission (1886) Govan, Scotland
12. Two-by-Two's (1897) Wm Irvine, Ireland
.
• Apostolic Succession or Underground Church Doctrine:
1. Primitive Baptists (1827) USA
2. Pentecostal Assemblies
3. Roman Catholic
4. Landmark Baptists
5. Waldensians (1205) Valdes, S France
6. Lollards (1309) Brabant, Switzerland
7. Hutterites (1527) Austria
8. Methodists (1730) Wesley, England
9. Disciples of Christ (1832) Campbell
10. Jehovah's Witnesses (1872) Russell, PA
11. Episcopalian/Church of England
12. Two-by-Two's (1897) Wm Irvine, Ireland
.
• This Way Is the ONLY True Way, i.e. The Church Is The Way:
1. Roman Catholic
2. Jehovah 's Witnesses (1872) Russell, PA
3. Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (1820) Smith, MO, UT
4. Christian Science (1879) Eddy
5. Plymouth Brethren (Exclusive Branch)
6. Seventh-Day Adventist (1840) Miller
7. Reformed Mennonite (1812) PA
8. Old Order Amish (1720) Switzerland
9. Churches of Christ (1906) Campbell, USA
10. Two-by-Two's (1897) Wm Irvine, Ireland
.
• Emphasis on Conformity in Dress and Hair Style:
1. Amana Church Society (1714) Rock & Gruber
2. The Apostolic Faith (1907) Crawford, OR
3. Old Order Dunkers (1881) OH, IN, PA
4. United Zion Church (1855) Bringer, Germa-ny
5. United Christian Church (1889) USA
6. Reformed Mennonites (1812) PA
7. Exclusive Brethren (1848) USA
8. Exclusive Mennonites (1536)
9. Old Order Amish (1720) Switzerland
10. Shakers (1747) Wadleys, England
11. Old German Baptist Brethren (1881)
12. Evangelical Wesleyan (1962) USA
13. Hutterian Brethren (1536)
14. Church of God in Christ (1859)
15. Pentecostal Fire Baptized Holiness (1907)
16. Apostolic Gospel Church of Jesus Christ (1963) Abernathy
17. Sanctified Church of Christ (1937) Leary
18. Quaker (1652) Fox, England
19. Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ, Inc. (1952)
20. Christian Faith Band (1877) Cox
21. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World (1906)
22. Mt. Sinai Holy Church (1924) Robison
23. Two-by-Two's (1897) Wm Irvine, Ireland

• Use of Tracts, Notes or Letters in Addition to the Bible:
1. Amana Church Society (1854) Germany
2. Jehovah's Witnesses
3. Seventh-Day Adventists (1840) Miller
4. Christian Science (1879) Eddy
5. Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (1820) Smith, MO, UT
6. United Pentecostal (1945)
7. Children of God (1970) Berg, CA
8. Two-by-Two's (1897) Wm Irvine, Ireland
.
•Annual Conventions or Conferences:
1. Old Order Dunkers (1881) OH, IN, PA
2. United Christian Church (1862) Hoffman, PA
3. Old Brethren Church (1915)
4. The Way International (1942) Weirville, OH
5. Bible Protestant Church (1939) East USA
6. Standard Church of America (1919) Horner
7. Sanctified Church of Christ (1937) Leary
8. Wesleyan Tabernacle Association (1936)
9. Church of God, Holiness (1914)
10. Lumber River Annual Conference of the Holiness Methodist Church (1900)
11. Quaker (1652) Fox, England
12. Assemblies of the Lord Jesus Christ, Inc. (1952)
13. Associated Brotherhood of Christians (1933) Riley & Partridge
14. Christian Faith Band (1877) Cox
15. Church of Lord Jesus Christ of Apostolic Faith (1933)
16. International Ministerial Association (1954) Kidson
17. Pentecostal Assemblies of the World (1906) Frazee
18. United Pentecostal (1945)
19. Mt Sinai Holy Church (1924) Robison
20. Evangelical Bible Church (1947) Marine
22. Full Gospel Minister
23. Faith Mission (1886) Govan, Scotland
24. Two-by-Two's (1897) Wm Irvine, Ireland
.
JUDGE FOR YOURSELF: ARE THE TWO BY TWOS REALLY UNIQUE?

[Compiled by Jim Vail, Boise, Idaho. Permission is granted to copy or reprint this text in its entirety. This comparison is not represented to be all-inclusive. NOTE: This comparison is not represented to be all-inclusive and was written in the late 1980s]

LINK to above article posted on TLC Website

[CherieKropp]

Quoting Bert: Misrepresentation - Associating us with cults.

Bert's Misreprsentation of Parker:  A word search on Parkers' book shows he doesnt use the word cult in his entire book.

[Grant]

What Bert means is that he does not personally know of any church like his. What Bert knows and what are facts are 2 different things.

[jondough]

This is why I wanted specific examples. Considering its critique of a book, it doesn't seem to much to ask.

I personally have never read one word of Parker's book. I just cant take anything serious unless there is something to back it up.

I do agree tho that someone can focus in on the negative only of any organization to make a reader that is unfamiliar with the organization think negative of it. Those familiar though, shouldn't so easily be swayed.


Of course...admittedly- All I heard about all other churches my entire life was the negative.

And of course theres' Bert. Have you ever heard positive about other churches? He even blankets all churches with the negatives of perhaps one particular "false" church.

Its why I hate exclusivity.  Its why I hate that we have to find the wrong in others in order to make ourself feel better.  It just seem ridiculous that one would say "we are the most right".  Or...."no one else is like us".  Of course not.  And no one else is like the Amish, or the Minonites, or the Morman...or........

[blandie]

Weird thing is - parkers' book has extensive footnotes pointing to documentation that back up the statements made in there if one is inclined to look further into the truthfulness of what it says. Its real thorough so I don't know where anyone would get the impression that theres nothing or little to backup what he wrote - that sounds more like relying on fourth-hand gossip rather than being about what the book they really wrote. Parkers weren't the first to gather documentation and they weren't the first to write well sourced info about the group but they did a good job gathering together a bunch of different pieces and putting them all together to give a good overview of the group's early decades. If it weren't for parkers I think the research thats been done since might not have happened - or maybe it would have just been more difficult because the parkers crammed a lot of pointers to original documents and sources and actually interviewed folks who were right there at the start of Will-I's 'experiment' when writing that book. Stuff thats been uncovered since just provides even more backing for the parkers' account - doesn't cast any shadow of doubt on it - and from time to time when I take a look at it again I'm amazed at how completely its held up to 40 years of questions and slurs and examination.

Feb 26, 2017 11:53:45 GMT -5 jondough said:

Its why I hate exclusivity. Its why I hate that we have to find the wrong in others in order to make ourself feel better. It just seem ridiculous that one would say "we are the most right". Or...."no one else is like us". Of course not. And no one else is like the Amish, or the Minonites, or the Morman...or........

Thats an interesting list that cheriekropp posted - it could be much longer too on every one of its points. Thing is if one is hung up with those things as being the 'only right way' then once a person starts actually looking at other groups out there one starts finding folks that do the same and even do them better than the shallow way the workers' church does them. They are near the top of the ladder when it comes to exclusivity - and being deceptive almost to a fault on that point to newbies and those on the fence - tho.

[Grant]

Blandie wrote Parker wasn't the first to gather documentation and write well sourced information about the group.

Now being brought up in meetings we like to make claims about being the first. Who else before Parker documented about the group?

[blandie]

Feb 26, 2017 14:04:35 GMT -5 Grant said:

Now being brought up in meetings we like to make claims about being the first. Who else before Parker documented about the group?

The first would be the newspapers - and not just the 'impartial reporter' but several dozens of them - and government in ireland and great britain. Aside from newpapers and courts and folks like john long and alf magowan and pattison and Will-I himself there were several mentions in books and tracts printed before parker began his investigation in the early 1950's as well as before 'the secret sect' came out in the early 1980's. There were also some probably unwelcome publicity 1920-1950 too that show them pointing back to the shores of galilee for their origins early on and there were some scandals that caused some of the friends - who were quickly exed - to do some digging such as getting the copies of geo walker's statement on 'christian conventions' stationery and other such materials. I think most all of that has been put out there on the internet by folks like cheriekropp. Those add even more backing to the already backed-up statements that parkers wrote.

[blandie]

Except nathan - there WAS NO SUCH SISTER. Parkers and cheriekropp and others tracked have tracked them all down and actually talked to the family and cheriekropp and maybe others also went to the trouble of tracking down their birth and death records. The 'sister' was invented - a rumor and a rationalization used to try to support the early LIE that 2x2-ism didn't start with Will-I but instead went straight back to the shores of galilee when the truth is that it didn't at all except in the general way that every single church on earth could claim the same thing.

In 1921 geo walker knew perfectly well who started the thing when he deflected a reporters question about Will-I by saying that 2x2-ism existed 'since the days of christ' and that it was just some people in ireland and england around 1898-1899 who 'became interested in the doctrines' before bringing it to the usa and canada and australia.

[blandie]

Feb 26, 2017 16:57:09 GMT -5 NathanB said:

William Irivine's sister wasn't a myth. Here are more information about William Irvine's sister... She was a REAL person, Blandie.

No she wasn't - it doesn't matter that people early on repeated the rumor with the conveniently unnamed sister - theres no way that Will-I had a sister in switzerland or ireland or any other such place that came in contact with a preexisting group - where is the evidence for that? why did that preexisting group not join up with 2x2-ism? who did they profess under? why did none of his real sisters profess? No all the sister myth does is raise more questions. Its a bunch of unsupported speculation when we have actual statements backed up with documentation that 2x2-ism starts with Will-I - and we even know why and it doesn't have anything to do with a sister.

[CherieKropp]

Nate wrote: Cherie K..... You need to update your information by adding Christianburg's testimony as the third source, about William Irvin's sister mentioned by George Walker, Charlie Hughes to your George Gittens article. You have known this information since 2013.

OK, Nate, just for you, I added this sentence, part of it uses christiansburg's exact words: 

According to a Worker present at a 1963 Workers Meeting in Richmond, Virginia, USA, Geo. Walker and Charlie Hughes mentioned that Irvine had been influenced in his thinking by his sister telling him how she had been spiritually moved.

However, it doesnt add anything that wasnt already known.
However, nothing Christiansburg reported told HOW his sister influenced him...what she told him isnt given.
Other statements say it was her death that influenced him.

[jondough]

Embrace your history Nathan.....its ok....

Our Fellowship was began by William Irvine on around 1897 depending on how you want to interpret what constituted the beginning.

I know this may be a blow to you, when you think you can trace it back through other denominations, that went by other names, all the way back to the Apostles. You can play leap frog all the way back from one denomination to the next. Any other denomination can do the same thing. But why? Is your faith not in Jesus?

Grasping like this is sad really. You even want to use some flimsy bit of inspiration theory...and use the source of someone you don't even know his name. Only his Pseudonym. Your idea of a source is You Tube, and posting by pseudonyms on TMB. I could create a new pseudonym right now, tell you I'm professing and know for a fact that.....and if it went along your belief lines, you would copy it to your website, and cut and paste it as a fact for the rest of your life.

Remember when RAM did this to you and made a fool of you? You need to use credible sources Nathan. Many people have been telling you this for years. If you don't, then you believe in things like Hollow Earth, Aliens living there, Commander Thor, Hollow Planets.....William Irvine Sister Stories....etc....

Just embrace our history Nathan, put your Faith in Jesus, and you'll be fine.


P.S. If you give me the name of of a Worker prior to 1897, you'll be able to convince me that our fellowship went further back than then. Its really as simple as that.

[CherieKropp]

Cherie, you must add Christianburg testimony so, your readers have a better idea what you're talking about. Robert Darling filled in the blank about William Irvine's story.

I boiled it down and gave the setting and the main comment of that was said about the sister.
The rest is fluff, and written under pseudonym, so it can't be checked out by the public. 

Others have said his sister influenced him also. I totally agree with that.
However, no primary evidence has turned up what that "influence" actually meant.

IMO Gittins, a known good storyteller, weaved his speculations all around Darling's words  to the point the account isn't reliable, given Prof. Rolfe's comments and others.  Would be nice there was a doc where of Rob Darling had written/spoke it himself.

[dmmichgood]

Feb 26, 2017 19:06:15 GMT -5 jondough said:

Embrace your history Nathan.....its ok....

Our Fellowship was began by William Irvine on around 1897 depending on how you want to interpret what constituted the beginning.

I know this may be a blow to you, when you think you can trace it back through other denominations, that went by other names, all the way back to the Apostles.

You can play leap frog all the way back from one denomination to the next.
 Any other denomination can do the same thing.
But why?
Is your faith not in Jesus?

Grasping like this is sad really.
You even want to use some flimsy bit of inspiration theory...and use the source of someone you don't even know his name.

Only his Pseudonym.
 Your idea of a source is You Tube, and posting by pseudonyms on TMB.

I could create a new pseudonym right now, tell you I'm professing and know for a fact that.....and if it went along your belief lines, you would copy it to your website, and cut and paste it as a fact for the rest of your life.

Remember when RAM did this to you and made a fool of you?
You need to use credible sources Nathan.
Many people have been telling you this for years.
If you don't, then you believe in things like Hollow Earth, Aliens living there, Commander Thor, Hollow Planets.....William Irvine Sister Stories....etc....

Just embrace our history Nathan, put your Faith in Jesus, and you'll be fine.


P.S. If you give me the name of of a Worker prior to 1897, you'll be able to convince me that our fellowship went further back than then.

 Its really as simple as that.

Yes, Nathan, -jondough is right!

It really is that simple!

Just find  the name  of a   "Worker prior to 1897"  and that would show us some proof beyond  William Irvine.

You won't be able to do that!

Actually,   -my husband,  -who had a brilliant mind,  -figured out for himself without being told by anyone that the *TRUTH*  did NOT and could NOT have  gone all the way back to    the "shores of Galilee!"

All the earmarks are there, if you only recognize them and put them together.

#1. All the  of the earliest  workers  had Irish & Scottish  names. Right?

#2.  Anyone who had read any history of the  followers of Jesus simply knew that  NO church, no matter how secretive they tried to be,  could have existed during the terrible reign of the Catholic Church!

[dmmichgood]

Feb 26, 2017 11:53:45 GMT -5 jondough said:

This is why I wanted specific examples. Considering its critique of a book, it doesn't seem to much to ask.

I personally have never read one word of Parker's book. I just cant take anything serious unless there is something to back it up.

I do agree tho that someone can focus in on the negative only of any organization to make a reader that is unfamiliar with the organization think negative of it. Those familiar though, shouldn't so easily be swayed.


Of course...admittedly- All I heard about all other churches my entire life was the negative.

And of course theres' Bert. Have you ever heard positive about other churches? He even blankets all churches with the negatives of perhaps one particular "false" church.

Its why I hate exclusivity.  Its why I hate that we have to find the wrong in others in order to make ourself feel better.  It just seem ridiculous that one would say "we are the most right".  Or...."no one else is like us".  Of course not.  And no one else is like the Amish, or the Minonites, or the Morman...or........

Jondough,  -I really think that if you just read Parker's book, the Secret Sect, you will find it very different that what some people like Bert denigrates the author because he doesn't like the message

Since Bert doesn't want to believe the "message" he wants to "kill the messenger!"

Parker's  book is nothing like what he and   some people here  claim!
It is  more of a scholarly critique  telling his research on  what we call the *TRUTH.*

People like Bert only get their knickers in a twist and blame Parker because they  simply don't want to accept  his findings.

For those of us who had already knew that the *TRUTH* really  didn't go all the way back to the beginning but we had only fragments, - Parker just filled in the blanks of what we didn't know.

[magpie]

Doug directed many people to freedom to liberate them from the "Secret Sect",but he was one who pointed out Jesus as your Savior. He never told people to follow a particular Church but made sure ,as many do,not to fall back into an exclusive sect. The denomination, at that time, he was concerned at saving people from was the registered "Christian Assemblies of Australia" (reg'd 1930 by Bill Carroll)a name denied by lying and deceptions for decades. Locals would remember the Morris truck at Dandenong(if you didn't belong to the Royal few you could not borrow it even to help a suffering family)it was registered in the name of "Christian Assemblies of Australia",fancy that now? Yes, a 2x2 worked at the Motor Vehicle Registration Branch,and fantastic she couldn't keep a secret,but I heard people scoff and sneer at her for mentioning it,like a child trying to tell someone that a worker did rude things to them,"don't be a dirty minded little child",the other "it couldn't be the same truck"

[magpie]

Shot yourself in the foot Nathan .The Faith Missions were a recognised dernomination run similar to todays Navigators -Transient inspirational inter church speakers

[dmmichgood]

Feb 26, 2017 21:44:14 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Feb 26, 2017 19:06:15 GMT -5 jondough said:

Embrace your history Nathan.....its ok....

Our Fellowship was began by William Irvine on around 1897 depending on how you want to interpret what constituted the beginning.

I know this may be a blow to you, when you think you can trace it back through other denominations, that went by other names, all the way back to the Apostles. You can play leap frog all the way back from one denomination to the next. Any other denomination can do the same thing. But why? Is your faith not in Jesus?

P.S. If you give me the name of a Worker prior to 1897, you'll be able to convince me that our fellowship went further back than then. Its really as simple as that.

The names of workers prior to 1897 2x2 workers were Faith Mission workers John Govan and his group of pilgrim preachers. Who did the Faith Mission get their 2x2 workers apostolic ministry idea from? Who were before Faith Mission group I wonder?

Revision:  (Thanks to Cherie for catching my error.)

 Nathan, that is ridiculous!

If the church called by us as the *TRUTH* OR THE WAY or even the F & W's ,*   -was just a continuation of the Faith Mission workers like John Govan,    then why  aren't    we called the Faith Mission?

Look up the Faith Mission's doctrine.

 See if it  is anything like their doctrine or  comes even half way close to   the  doctrine of the  *TRUTH.*


 

[CherieKropp]

Nate, exactly when and how did the Faith Mission become the Workers Fellowship?

[dmmichgood]

Feb 26, 2017 23:43:52 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Feb 26, 2017 23:37:54 GMT -5 dmmichgood said:

 Nathan, that is ridiculous!

If the church called by us as the *TRUTH* OR THE WAY or even the F & W's ,*   -was just a continuation of the Faith Mission workers like John Govan,    why then are we called the Faith Mission?

Look up the Faith Mission's doctrine.

 See if it  is anything like their doctrine or  comes even half way close to   the  doctrine of the  *TRUTH.*

Yes, it does.... Both have 2x2 apostolic/workers ministry.

Dr. Jaenen wrote Page 492-3..... The Faith Mission statement

So what does it matter if the same  physical  method of holding  their meetings  may have been the same? Their doctrine is NOT!


As I said before, Nathan check  the doctrines of the two churches. 

They are NOTHING alike!

Tell us where the doctrines are the same!

[dmmichgood]

Feb 27, 2017 0:01:21 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Feb 26, 2017 23:52:39 GMT -5 dmmichgood said:

As I said before, Nathan  just check out the doctrines of the two churches  They are NOTHING alike!

The 2x2 workers based their 2x2 apostolic ministry from John Govan Faith Mission formation. The 2x2 workers even use many of the Faith Mission terminologies, workers, friends, meeting halls, and conventions methods.

So what? 

No doubt they did because they were use to        those terms.

Is that all that you base you faith in the F&W's on, - just the external trappings of the church?

Nothing any deeper than that?

[jondough]

Feb 26, 2017 21:44:14 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Feb 26, 2017 19:06:15 GMT -5 jondough said:

Embrace your history Nathan.....its ok....

Our Fellowship was began by William Irvine on around 1897 depending on how you want to interpret what constituted the beginning.

I know this may be a blow to you, when you think you can trace it back through other denominations, that went by other names, all the way back to the Apostles. You can play leap frog all the way back from one denomination to the next. Any other denomination can do the same thing. But why? Is your faith not in Jesus?

P.S. If you give me the name of a Worker prior to 1897, you'll be able to convince me that our fellowship went further back than then. Its really as simple as that.

The names of workers prior to 1897 2x2 workers were Faith Mission workers John Govan and his group of pilgrim preachers. Who did the Faith Mission get their 2x2 workers apostolic ministry idea from? Who were before Faith Mission group I wonder?

This is the leap frogging that I'm talking about.  Claiming other denominations.  The other denominations you keep leap frogging to/from are still active today.  Any other denomination could do the same thing you are doing.

You have said it many times Nathan.  The Faith Mission was non-exclusive.  In many areas they would convert the people to Christianity then send them off to a church of their choice for fellowship.  The same way Billy Graham does.  And this is who you are claiming now?

[Grant]

For the 100th time Nathan, The Faith Mission was not a church, it was a missionary organisation. It never intended to be a church and is still not a church today. Unlike the Waldensian and 2x2s which are established churches

[dmmichgood]

Feb 27, 2017 0:52:05 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Feb 27, 2017 0:28:04 GMT -5 jondough said:

This is the leap frogging that I'm talking about.  Claiming other denominations.  The other denominations you keep leap frogging to/from are still active today.  Any other denomination could do the same thing you are doing.

You have said it many times Nathan.  The Faith Mission was non-exclusive.  In many areas they would convert the people to Christianity then send them off to a church of their choice for fellowship.  The same way Billy Graham does.  And this is who you are claiming now?

Faith Mission had some doctrines and belief which William Irvine and most of 2x2 did NOT agree with, therefore they left. Faith Mission did NOT baptize their converts or having the having Sunday emblems services. After conversion, the workers DO NOT send or TELL their converts to JOIN the churches of your choice like the Faith Mission or Billy Graham does....

That what happened to John Long, he was excommunicated from the ministry in 1907 for being non-exclusive 2x2 worker sending his 2x2 converts to join other churches. Any worker preaches non-exclusive ministry today, will be excommunicated from the ministry, just like John Long... The workers will leave the friends alone, if they post anonymous on TMB.

 If he/she speaks this non-exclusive in his/her Sunday morning meetings or at conventions, the workers will have visits with him/her like they did with Brandon in Texas.

Eventually, Brandon join the church of his non-2x2 wife...

Exactly!  They certainly would get a  visit!

So, -why do you keep trying to claim that the 2x2 church DID NOT begin with W. Irvine but went back to John Govan?

[CherieKropp]

Feb 27, 2017 8:55:31 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Feb 27, 2017 2:48:38 GMT -5 Grant said:

For the 100th time Nathan, The Faith Mission was not a church, it was a missionary organisation. It never intended to be a church and is still not a church today. Unlike the Waldensian and 2x2s which are established churches

Church means assembly of believers... The Faith mission had Prayer Union gathering for their converts on Sunday= Church and an organization. Faith Mission is Inter-denomination working with many denominations.

Wrong again, Nate... 
FM has weekly prayer union meetings.  Their members attend the church of their choice on Sundays.

If you care to educate yourself about the Faith Mission, they allowed one of their books telling of the history of FM, Heritage of Revival,  to be posted on TTT at: 
www.tellingthetruth.info/publications_index/heritage-revival.php

[CherieKropp]

Nate wrote: That what happened to John Long, he was excommunicated from the ministry in 1907 for being non-exclusive 2x2 worker sending his 2x2 converts to join other churches. Any worker preaches non-exclusive ministry today, will be excommunicated from the ministry, just like John Long... The workers will leave the friends alone, if they post anonymous on TMB.

If he/she speaks this non-exclusive in his/her Sunday morning meetings or at conventions, the workers will have visits with him/her like they did with Brandon in Texas.  Eventually, Brandon join the church of his non-2x2 wife...

Workers would claim that Brandon didn't have/get "the revelation." 

Appeal to Revelation - The God Card

When asked for support in the Bible for a particular belief or practice, if the person knows the answer and doesn't mind telling you the answer, they will answer your question plainly. A simple answer is the easiest way out. However, it’s not unusual to be given a “thought stopper” reply to discourage certain or hard questions regarding their church belief system or doctrine.

One of these some Workers use is Appeal to Revelation, such as: “If you had received the Revelation, then you would understand (or see it).” The implication is you are deficient or “less than” because you don’t get or have it. If-then statements are verbally abusive attacks. They are a reply, but are not an answer to a sincere question.

Another term used for Appeal to Revelation is “The God Wildcard Fallacy. [ It] excuses contradiction in logic or reason by ‘divine mystery.’ It comes in many forms, and is played when honest questioning leads to absurd or illogical conclusions” (Source: Logically Fallacious by Bo Bennett, p. 226).

Presenting an Appeal to Revelation is used to gain control, to stop the line of questioning, to show who has the power and authority in the conversation and to shame and put down the questioner. An Appeal to Revelation is also an attempt to elevate or boost the Workers’ conclusions, preferences or viewpoint, and evade the question for which they have no good answer. It is difficult to defend yourself against this type diversion, and is best to ignore it and come at your question from a different angle.

Calling a belief a "Revelation" elevates it to a place where it is immune to contrary evidence. It is insinuated that if you can't or don’t see it, that proves you don't have or have lost the spirit, your Revelation, your understanding or your vision. It cannot be proven. A stalemate will likely result if both parties take a spiritual high ground claiming they each have knowledge from a Revelation. When the so-called God given Revelations to two individuals are contradictory, it would seem that one or the other is a private interpretation, opinion or preference. Of course, in the 2x2 church, the Workers’ Revelation will outrank all others.

Harold Bennett said, “You mean to say that you received divine Revelation that us Workers don't know about?” The scripture does not support the idea that Workers are privy to special Revelation unattainable by the Friends or believers. "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God that giveth to ALL men liberal¬ly" (James 1:5).

Does the Scripture say scriptural illumination is confined to a few select people of a certain rank? Or does it say: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost " (2 Pet 1:20-21).“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus” (2 Tim 3:15).

If you ask a Worker a question and s/he can explain it and provide its scriptural basis, they are usually happy to do so. They don’t bring out the God Card because there is no need to. It’s times when they cannot come up with a satisfactory scriptural answer that some may make an Appeal to Revelation. It’s an evasion, a diversion and a cop-out. The fewer clear supporting scriptural answers there are to a question, the more likely it may become a matter of “Revelation.”

To the discerning listener and sincere questioner, the Appeal to Revelation simply doesn’t hold water. It’s not convincing, satisfactory or acceptable. A reply that doesn't make sense, add up, sound right, click or ring with truth probably doesn't answer your question. It’s an excuse to avoid dealing with a question in a spiritually responsible manner and to put the blame on the questioner and an attempt to make them feel bad for asking. The questioner is snookered.

Most Friends and Workers believe the Workers are the only ones qualified to explain the contents of the Bible; that they are God’s only true interpreters of the Bible and His will. One of the early Workers, Bill Carroll, Overseer of Victoria, Australia, said the Ws are God’s sole interpreters of the Bible. Some believe the way God works is that God reveals things to Workers who reveal them to the people. This is not scriptural.

Some Workers’ interpretations and conclusions have been elevated to the status of scripture; and their words are viewed as God speaking through them. Clyde MacKay wrote that questioning him was the same as speaking against God: “And while you think you may have done this to me, Jesus said forasmuch as ye have done it to one of these the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Just as God said to the children of Israel, ye have not spoken against Moses, but you have spoken against me” (October 25, 1997 Letter to Ross Bowden). This is not scriptural.

The late Overseer, Willis Propp said, "God's servants are the understanding authority of the Word of God" (1979 Olympia Convention). Some Workers have said the scripture isn't the Word of God until spoken by a Worker. Some have declared that the Bible is a dead book unless it is made to live through the mouth of a Worker. Hearing the Workers speak is given far more importance than reading the Bible yourself in the 2x2 church. This is not scriptural either.

The Workers are NOT prophets. God told Moses: “I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.”

The people asked: “How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?” God answered: When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him (Deut. 18:18-22).

In other words, the way to tell if a prophet was a true prophet of God was by the message of the prophet. If the prophet’s words did not come to pass, then he was not a true prophet. As stated, there are no more prophets of the Old Testament variety, and the Workers are not prophets.

So how can one discern whether a scripture has been accurately interpreted by a Worker? A reliable scriptural test can be applied; that of the Two Witnesses. “In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established” (2 Cor 13:1; John 8:17; Deut. 19:15; 1 Tim 5:19). The scripture does not contradict itself. A rightly interpreted passage will have more than one scripture to confirm it. If it is correct, there will be additional scriptures that confirm the Worker’s interpretation. If we find that a

Workers’ interpretation of a passage contradicts God’s Words in other places in the Scripture, then we can know that interpretation is not trustworthy. The Holy Spirit always reveals truth that harmonizes with the scripture. God is not the author of confusion, and He does not contradict himself. We don’t need to fear when we do not believe a man’s so-called “Revelation” or any dire predictions against us for not believing it, when we are trusting the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth.

A Worker wrote: "To lose confidence in the ministry would be losing confidence in all we believe..." This is not true. Losing confidence in some Workers’ understanding and interpretation of the Bible is not at all the same as losing confidence in God or the Bible. Christians are personally responsible to God for what they believe and do and are only to follow ministers insofar as they follow Christ. As Paul wrote: “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1).

Christians believe that they are born again (saved) when they believe that Jesus of Nazareth was the prophesied Messiah (Christ) who died for the sins of mankind and rose again the third day according to the scriptures. They believe in the name of Jesus and His finished work of redemption which paid for the sins of mankind, which reconciled God and man. They accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior and king, turn from their sins (repent) and trust and submit their life, heart and mind completely to Him and His teachings expressed in the New Covenant in the Bible. While on earth, the Holy Spirit dwells within them and guides them (John 16:13), and when they die, they believe they will go to heaven.

Friends and Workers believe you "have the vision" when you "see" that their belief system they call “the truth” is God’s only right way because they alone follow the true pattern of the original apostles and the early church; because only they have a 2x2 homeless ministry and church in the home with no name, and follow certain required rules and traditions (which have been added by the Workers to the finished work of Jesus' sacri¬fice). Because they alone do all these things, they firmly believe the Workers are God's only true appointed servants on earth. There is no scripture to support the conclusion there is only one right way to heaven that doesn’t mean “Jesus is the way.”

The Revelation the Workers want outsiders to “get” is that the Workers are God’s Only True Servants and their church is God’s Only True Way. This is not a Revelation confirmed in scripture. The Bible says the saving Revelation is to see, believe, accept and trust that Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God, the promised Messiah, the Christ, the sacrificial Lamb that paid for the sins of mankind with His blood sacrifice at Calvary (John 1:1-8; 3:16).

Workers are eager for their converts and followers to become enlightened, to get the vision, the so-called “Revelation” that the Workers are God’s only true ministers on earth and that the only way to God, heaven and eternal life is through them. They believe they are the gate through which one must go to enter heaven. In other words, the Workers have a monopoly on salvation. An elderly sister Worker, Edna Blackburn, once remarked that in preaching the gospel, the hardest thing to get across to people was that it was God’s only right way

Read entire article on TLC WEB at:  thelibertyconnection.info/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=444:chapter-8-appeal-to-revelation-the-god-card&catid=23:before-you-ask&Itemid=34

[CherieKropp]

Feb 27, 2017 9:03:57 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Feb 27, 2017 8:59:50 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Wrong again, Nate... 
FM has weekly prayer union meetings.  Their members attend the church of their choice on Sundays.

So, Which day did the Faith Mission gather during the week for the weekly prayer Union meeting, back in 1897 Cherie? Which day of the week do the Faith Mission gather today to worship?

Whatever day works for the PU members in that area...usually Tues, Wed or Thur.

[jondough]

Nathan,

You are so confused.

All your information comes from TTT, then you take that and try to revise it to fit what you want to believe....i.e. I ask you for a worker prior to 1897 and you give me a name from the Faith Mission.

You would be well served by sticking with the simple teaching of Jesus. But even then, don't add to his words, and don't take away.