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Post by rational on Nov 3, 2015 10:47:43 GMT -5
@simpleton's math is wrong. Using the correct number of worker convictions, 9, helps. Even if you use the incorrect low number of 600 male workers the rate is 1.5% not 3.8% or 5%. Perhaps @simpleton's degrees were not in mathematics, although in most universities, especially Ivy League, statistics is a requirement. It would seem that logic not required.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 10:57:42 GMT -5
@simpleton's math is wrong. Using the correct number of worker convictions, 9, helps. Even if you use the incorrect low number of 600 male workers the rate is 1.5% not 3.8% or 5%. I most certainly do admit that my calculations are not precise. In fact in the introduction said they were 'back of the envelope'. The reason being that there are a lot difficulties with getting apples-to-apples comparisons of data between 2x2s and Catholics on this issue. Let me point out a few of the issues (some of which you all have noted as well) 1) We only have WINGS as the source of repository for 2x2 convictions. There could be many more that we are unaware of. 2) We only have 2x2 convictions for the very recent period. We have little to no information about convictions in the 1970s and 1980s even. 3) We do not have a firm number on the number of male 2x2 workers in the world, let alone each geographic region. 4) We do not know the rate of how many incidents were turned into complaints for both groups. 5) We do not know the rate of how many complaints were turned into convictions for both groups. 6) We do know that the background conditions are not the same for both group (boarding schools vs home visits), but we don't know how many of the Catholic incidents were in similar settings as for the 2x2s. However, we do know that the majority of the Catholic convictions were for boarding school and alterboy situations. It's very hard to make this apples-to-apples, but is still a reasonable exercise to do some rough calculations to put it all in perspective while understanding the assumptions and restrictions. Furthermore, the different background conditions for 2x2s vs Catholics would make it seem nearly impossible for 2x2s workers to commit CSA, but we have evidence to the contrary. Keep that first and foremost in your mind.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 11:19:56 GMT -5
Why would you want to prove which group is the worst? What's the point of figuring that out. Aside from the fact that your diatribe against the friends is highly conjectural and deeply flawed, one wonders why all the mental and posting effort into such an exercise. What's your motive in this, simpleton? Be honest. Thanks for the question. I started this thread to open up a discussion on a point that is commonly raised - They all do it, so why pick on us. I believe that it's important to pick apart why CSA happens in 2x2ism. I believe that the very 2x2 organizational structure facilitates CSA. I believe that if 2x2ism reformed its structure to something more like a mainline Protestant denomination with laity (Friends) oversight over the ministers (workers), then the CSA incidence rates would decline substantially. In addition this type of reform would mitigate much of the financial corruption and doctrinal confusion from region to region. And most importantly, reforms of this type would enable 2x2ism to actually exist into the future instead of being the slowly withering congregation that it is. Until 2x2ism comes to grips with the fact that its only source of new members are B&R, and that it doesn't have a very good capture ratio for even those souls, 2x2ism is going to continue to decline in membership.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Nov 3, 2015 11:21:05 GMT -5
@simpleton's math is wrong. Using the correct number of worker convictions, 9, helps. Even if you use the incorrect low number of 600 male workers the rate is 1.5% not 3.8% or 5%. I most certainly do admit that my calculations are not precise. In fact in the introduction said they were 'back of the envelope'. The reason being that there are a lot difficulties with getting apples-to-apples comparisons of data between 2x2s and Catholics on this issue. Let me point out a few of the issues (some of which you all have noted as well) 1) We only have WINGS as the source of repository for 2x2 convictions. There could be many more that we are unaware of. 2) We only have 2x2 convictions for the very recent period. We have little to no information about convictions in the 1970s and 1980s even. 3) We do not have a firm number on the number of male 2x2 workers in the world, let alone each geographic region. 4) We do not know the rate of how many incidents were turned into complaints for both groups. 5) We do not know the rate of how many complaints were turned into convictions for both groups. 6) We do know that the background conditions are not the same for both group (boarding schools vs home visits), but we don't know how many of the Catholic incidents were in similar settings as for the 2x2s. However, we do know that the majority of the Catholic convictions were for boarding school and alterboy situations. It's very hard to make this apples-to-apples, but is still a reasonable exercise to do some rough calculations to put it all in perspective while understanding the assumptions and restrictions. Furthermore, the different background conditions for 2x2s vs Catholics would make it seem nearly impossible for 2x2s workers to commit CSA, but we have evidence to the contrary. Keep that first and foremost in your mind. And keep in mind your math was off by a factor of 3. That indicates a carelessness when it comes to being objective and accurate. You doubled down with the same carelessness in other statements. No amount of additional posts or points will change that glaringly obvious fact. If you want to make accusations like you have at least try to make it look like you are attempting to be objective and accurate. If there's not even basic objectivity and accuracy coherent conversation is impossible. (Not saying that incoherent conversations are unusual here on TMB. )
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 11:24:09 GMT -5
And keep in mind your math was off by a factor of 3. That indicates a carelessness when it comes to being objective and accurate. You doubled down with the same carelessness in other statements. No amount of additional posts or points will change that glaringly obvious fact. If you want to make accusations like you have at least try to make it look like you are attempting to be objective and accurate. You seem to keep focusing on numbers which I very explicitly stated were back of the envelope. I encourage you to engage in the wider debate I am trying to have - What is it about 2x2ism that facilitates CSA and how is that different from other religious organizations.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Nov 3, 2015 11:25:45 GMT -5
"What is it about 2x2ism that facilitates CSA" - What did I just say about objectivity? Wow.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 11:29:31 GMT -5
"What is it about 2x2ism that facilitates CSA" - What did I just say about objectivity? Wow. Are you unable to conceptualize how a particular organizational structure can facilitate unwanted externalities? Systems do cause unintended consequences, you know. 2x2ism is not just a set of religious doctrines. It is a lifestyle, a culture, a jargon, and organizational structure.
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Post by jondough on Nov 3, 2015 11:36:03 GMT -5
Objectiveness is illusive for ANYONE on this board. If you are a innie, its hard to be objective for obvious reasons. If you’re an ex, same thing. It seems that to be objective, you must pretty much come from the outside, and have no history with 2X2s. Even someone like Maryhig’s roots lead back to the same place. I’m not aware of anyone other than her that is not either an ex or a current 2X2.
So more importantly, when submitting data, we must submit accurate, and relevant data.
This doesn’t mean that we can’t express our opinions. That’s mainly what this board is all about. Just understand that opinions are not going to be objective on this board.
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Post by rational on Nov 3, 2015 11:39:08 GMT -5
here is the Nesweek quote: The only hard data that has been made public by any denomination comes from John Jay College's study of Catholic priests, which was authorized and is being paid for by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops following the public outcry over the 2002 scandals. Limiting their study to plausible accusations made between 1950 and 1992, John Jay researchers reported that about 4 percent of the 110,000 priests active during those years had been accused of sexual misconduct involving children. Specifically, 4,392 complaints (ranging from "sexual talk" to rape) were made against priests by 10,667 victims
Notice that is only US priests and that is talking about complaints, not convictions. In this article, it was complaints that was used as the criteria because historically there had been a very low conviction rate. The 4% number is, however, supported by other studies. The fact that there are not convictions is due to the way the church handled the allegations. A report from www.bishop-accountability.org found counted 6,427 clerics "not implausibly" and "credibly" accused in the period 1950-2013 of sexually abusing minors. Do you have research that states it is lower?There is no accurate data regarding the complaints against the workers. Comparing convictions known for the F&W against the convictions known for the RCC does not take into account the allegations that were settled out of court. This is significant since it was the way the RCC covered up the wrongdoing. While the priests may have had access to the boarding school students these schools were not the source of the majority of the complaints. One could argue that workers, staying in the homes of friends, have greater access. Historically these were probably sources for a significant amount of abuse but it would be inaccurate to judge them by the standards of today.
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Post by rational on Nov 3, 2015 11:42:06 GMT -5
I think I would take that bet. First you would need to classify homeless. Do you include people living in shelters or just those sleeping rough? Are you including all homeless or just adult males? And finally, what is your number for the total number of workers in the world? www.bowery.org/homelessness/In a city of 8.5 million people, more than 56,000 homeless men, women and children sleep in homeless shelters and at least 3,300 more sleep on the streets and subways in the dead of winter. You can do the rest of the math. There were three questions asked. You failed to answer any of them. 1)Do you include people living in shelters or just those sleeping rough? 2)Are you including all homeless or just adult males? 3)And finally, what is your number for the total number of workers in the world? No point in doing the math if you don't know how you are defining the data points.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 11:49:00 GMT -5
Who hasn't heard of the sex crimes in perpetrated by Catholic priests. Now other denominations are finding similar as well. It seems that Child Sex Abuse is everywhere. What is most troubling is the rate of CSA in 2x2ism, the system of facilitation and obstruction of justice. As far as I can see, CSA in 2x2ism is vastly higher (perhaps 5 times higher) than normal. Here is a back of the envelope calculation: About 2000 workers worldwide, 1/3 are male, equals 600 male workers worldwide. Examine the CSA convictions on the Wings site. Add all the worker convictions. Then divide by 600. There's the rate, approximately 5%. And that is only convictions, not incidents. Then look at all the convictions for Obstruction of Justice in 2x2ism. Just imagine what the real rate of CSA incidents are; could be higher than 25% for male workers. Who knows. It's high that for sure. Contrast the 2x2 CSA conviction rate of 5% with the conviction rate of CSA among Catholic priests, which is less than 1%. There are about 500,000 male priests in Catholicism. Now consider what opportunities 2x2 workers have for committing CSA versus the opportunities that Catholic priests have. Most of the Catholic cases of CSA have been in all boys boarding schools; which is basically about as shooting-fish-in-a-barrel as you can imagine. 2x2 workers have to commit their CSA infractions in the homes of laity!! Much harder with Dad around don't you think? The 2x2 pedophiles are clearly at a disadvantage in terms of opportunity set, but they still are able to commit about 5 times the rate of incidents (just based on convictions). Then consider the ease of coverup in the Catholic community versus 2x2 community. Catholics are 100% integrated in the wider society; they are police officers, district attorneys, judges, etc. It's extremely hard to keep something smothered in the Catholic community as a result. 2x2s on the otherhand are not well integrated into the wider society. For many 2x2s, most if not all of their social interaction is with other 2x2s, all of whom are under worker control. The 2x2 situation is almost identical the Hasidic Jew problem with CSA. The Hasidic Jews, despite having married rabbis, every once and a while will get caught in a sting operation of hundreds of them caught in a CSA ring. This happens because the Hasids are not allowed to rat each other out to the police, according to their religious laws. So it takes only extreme situations to get a conviction of Hasids. Then consider that Catholics had instituted a massive amount of programs and processes to root out pedophiles. Background checks, psyc assessments, no adult and child one-on-one situations, hotlines, etc. The 2x2s? Nothing. Same old obfuscation and obstruction of justice. That's why the argument, "Everyone else does it, so why pick on us pious 2x2s", falls flat. Sadly, the extent of your error in the maths, has now destroyed your credibility on this thread. I suggest you start a new thread building up your case based on fact rather than letting emotion run away on you. I would suggest that in your posts you state clearly what you know is true and what is simply your opinion. This is not aiming to knock you down. i would value you hanging around here adding fresh topics and views.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 11:55:55 GMT -5
There is no accurate data regarding the complaints against the workers. Comparing convictions known for the F&W against the convictions known for the RCC does not take into account the allegations that were settled out of court. This is significant since it was the way the RCC covered up the wrongdoing. Why be duplicitous with your statement? It is equally the case that 2x2s covered up a lot wrong doing with out of court settlements. We know that for a fact due to statements made in the convictions of workers. Bruce Waddell for example. I think you need to read through the CSA complaint literature again regarding Catholics (and even other Protestant churches). Incidence and complaint rates were majority comprised from boarding schools. Some schools generating 100's of complaints. There is no way you can reasonably state 2x2 workers in homes have easy targets. Most of the time the kids are in school. When the kids are home, there is a high probability the parents are also home. This means that 2x2 workers were diddling kids under the noses of the parents. Read the victims letters on WINGS. It's very clear that much of this happened in supposedly supervised conditions.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Nov 3, 2015 11:55:33 GMT -5
"What is it about 2x2ism that facilitates CSA" - What did I just say about objectivity? Wow. Are you unable to conceptualize how a particular organizational structure can facilitate unwanted externalities? Systems do cause unintended consequences, you know. 2x2ism is not just a set of religious doctrines. It is a lifestyle, a culture, a jargon, and organizational structure. Yes I'm too stupid to conceptualize the red herring you threw out. I do have a few questions though; What is it about schools that facilitates CSA? What is it about daycares that facilitates CSA? What is it about doctors offices that facilitates CSA? What is it about any church that facilitates CSA? What is it about mosques that facilitates CSA? What is it about dentists offices that facilitates CSA? What is it about city streets that facilitates CSA? What is it about gay marriages that facilitates CSA? What is it about straight marriages that that facilitates CSA? What is it about the internet that facilitates CSA? What is it about orphanages that facilitates CSA? What is it about Child Protection Services that facilitates CSA? All of those systems/organizational structures have the "unwanted externalities" of CSA so the common denominator and root cause really cannot be the system or organizational structure can it? The premise of the opening post and thread title "Who's worse than the Catholics" fail on more than just on the math that was off by a factor of 3.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 11:58:56 GMT -5
Sadly, the extent of your error in the maths, has now destroyed your credibility on this thread. I suggest you start a new thread building up your case based on fact rather than letting emotion run away on you. I would suggest that in your posts you state clearly what you know is true and what is simply your opinion. This is not aiming to knock you down. i would value you hanging around here adding fresh topics and views. You missed the point. My post was never about the exact figures. I readily state that in the opening paragraph. I also readily state that many times in the thread. I had to start the post off with some hyperbole in order to get you all to read it. My post is about WHAT IS IT ABOUT 2X2ISM THAT FACILITATES CSA. Can we please have that discussion? It's far more interesting.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 12:02:21 GMT -5
Are you unable to conceptualize how a particular organizational structure can facilitate unwanted externalities? Systems do cause unintended consequences, you know. 2x2ism is not just a set of religious doctrines. It is a lifestyle, a culture, a jargon, and organizational structure. Yes I'm too stupid to conceptualize the red herring you threw out. I do have a few questions though; What is it about schools that facilitates CSA? What is it about daycares that facilitates CSA? What is it about doctors offices that facilitates CSA? What is it about any church that facilitates CSA? What is it about mosques that facilitates CSA? What is it about dentists offices that facilitates CSA? What is it about city streets that facilitates CSA? What is it about gay marriages that facilitates CSA? What is it about straight marriages that that facilitates CSA? What is it about the internet that facilitates CSA? What is it about orphanages that facilitates CSA? What is it about Child Protection Services that facilitates CSA? All of those systems/organizational structures have the "unwanted externalities" of CSA so the common denominator and root cause really cannot be the system or organizational structure can it? The premise of the opening post and thread title "Who's worse than the Catholics" fail on more than just on the math that was off by a factor of 3. I'm not particularly interested in why CSA might occur at particular daycare. I am interested why CSA happens with the APOSTLES OF GOD of the mighty ONE TRUE CHURCH of the 2x2s. Let's try to get to the bottom of this problem instead of just saying, "they all do it, so it's not important that we do it". NB: let's, for the sake of Western Civilization, try to use words correctly, ok? Look up the word Premise and the phrase Red Herring. A Premise is a statement which supports a conclusion. A Red Herring is a statement which is not related to the argument/counter-argument.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Nov 3, 2015 12:16:45 GMT -5
I'm not particularly interested in why CSA might occur at particular daycare. I am interested why CSA happens with the APOSTLES OF GOD of the mighty ONE TRUE CHURCH of the 2x2s. Let's try to get to the bottom of this problem instead of just saying, "they all do it, so it's not important that we do it". Now comes the strawman stuffing: Who here is saying "they all do it, so it's not important that we do it"?? Answer; no one. That is a strawman existing in your imagination only. Like Don Quixote imagining windmills to be giants so he can feel macho fighting them. Just quit already with the logical fallacies. You are getting closer to the root cause of the CSA problem. At its roots it's an individual person problem, not an inanimate system/organizational structure problem. It can be somewhat controlled by education like the Ministry Safe training workers and others take on a re-occurring basis. To cure CSA at the root cause level requires an individual, personal, and internal commitment to not abuse. That isn't something any type of collective or group will ever have complete control of. CSA occurs in even the most totalitarian systems imaginable.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Nov 3, 2015 12:33:58 GMT -5
A Premise is a statement which supports a conclusion. A Red Herring is a statement which is not related to the argument/counter-argument. So the statement with math that was off by a factor of 3 was the premise? If the premise is that fatally flawed how can it support any conclusion, or correctly answer the thread title question? Are limited word meaning definitions thrown into a discussion red herrings? Word meaning arguments are always interesting because all the meanings often aren't quoted.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 12:39:48 GMT -5
My post is about WHAT IS IT ABOUT 2X2ISM THAT FACILITATES CSA. Can we please have that discussion? It's far more interesting. I see no evidence that 2x2s have a worse record than anyone else. Your maths definitely didn't help the case. (The 2x2s are starting to get their act together in terms of reporting cases that arise – different places getting there at different speeds.) So rather than looking simply at the 2x2s I’ll look at society as a whole, and consider why cases like Jimmy Saville and the different churches and sects have been allowed to go on undealt with for decades. I believe:- the main thing is culture – easy to have a mindset of do nothing rather than get involved (think here of all the episodes (hundreds?) that existed under Jimmy Saville and the large number of ‘blind eyes’ shown). That just as my generation came to terms with evils such as apartheid , the next generation (my children) will do far better than my generation did regarding csa. The openness with which it is discussed at schools etc gives me that hope. I believe your maths wrecked any hope of this thread concentrating on csa within 2x2s rather than say society or church groups as a whole. Starting with flawed maths in your opening post simply helped make everything after it suspect in readers minds.
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Post by jondough on Nov 3, 2015 13:14:35 GMT -5
Another inherent group behavior that we (2X2's) are not immune to. I think 2X2's are singled out here for a couple of reasons;
1. We/they tend to think we are special, and something like this could NEVER happen within our group. I know as a kid, I would have thought it impossible for ANY worker to be capable of such a thing. I simply would not have believed it.
2. The discussion on this board is about 2X2's, is it not?
I think the more these kind of things are discussed openly, the more people become aware of it. As mentioned by Morriss above, education and awareness is a huge step in prevention. I believe we are major strides ahead of where we were 30 years ago in prevention, just based on awareness, education, and the information age.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 13:30:49 GMT -5
Remember, that is it 2x2 Workers, Overseers, Elders, Friends who have committed these abominable acts. These are supposed to be the only True Christians, The only True Way, The only ones going to Heaven, the only One with the Holy Spirit, the only Apostles, the only True Church, etc.
Just ask yourself, "At what point was the Holy Spirit in Bruce Waddell. Did the Holy Spirit make Bruce's penis do those things? And most importantly, were you able to discern when the Holy Spirit was and wasn't with Bruce? You know that you simply cannot tell when the Holy Spirit is with a deceiver or not. You simply cannot. So any time that you are certain the Holy Spirit is with someone, you just might be wrong. So using the idea of the Holy Spirit being with someone as a basis for giving them authority, power, teaching expertise, etc is completely insane.
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Post by Grant on Nov 3, 2015 13:37:23 GMT -5
I am wondering if the Catholic Church has elders or just priests. If not in order to do a comparison between priests and the 2x2s one must include workers and elders in the 2x2s comparison to priests.
I know this thread had moved beyond statistics in our discussion but the thread moved fast.
The Catholic Church have offered world wide apologies about their role in sexual abuse. I have yet to see that by workers. All I see is a lot of minimizing and attacking those who try and expose it. Workers who don't want it getting out.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 13:45:02 GMT -5
Yes, the Roman Catholic Church has 'elders'. As does all other mainline Christian churches. These elders are called Deacons in most churches. Many of them might have even attended some or all seminary training. A deacon is step on the becoming a priest as a priest is a step to becoming a bishop. All priests are deacons, but obviously not all deacons are priests. Deacons are considered part of the clergy.
Deacons are responsible for doing a lot of the managerial work in the church organization.
In Protestant churches there is also laity (friends) who are on the management of the church. There is a board of directors. Accounts manager, etc. The board of directors hires and fires the priests. This makes a lot of sense since the priest should only be responsible for spiritual matters.
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Post by blandie on Nov 3, 2015 13:48:06 GMT -5
Paul at least had training at the highest level and some other of the apostles may also have had some. We do know that peter, john and their kin were fishermen but as jews would have still had much more training in the scriptures than most F&W's get because they would have been raised in the synagogues where they would have both had to learn to read the scriptures as a requirement for entry into the community and would have memorized many portions and would have listened to and later participated in the discussions about the scriptures there - those were and are very interactive and intellectually stimulating and nothing like 2x2-ism's meetings.
The apostles of Jesus Christ were directly given what message to deliver - they didn't make up their own sermons off the cuff or went on and on about how they were the only apostles that followed the example of Matt 10 or any of the other clutter that gets lumped as 'gospel' in 2x2-ism - they delivered the message they were sent to deliver. The word apostle means one sent on a mission like an ambassador and the word preacher means one who is sent as a herald - neither one delivers his/her own words instead of those of the king and neither one substitutes their spin on what he/she has been given to deliver and neither one hides the message in little 'stories from life' and neither one pulls out a couple of out of context points from the message and turns that into whats delivered - a king who sent such an ambassador or herald would have their heads chopped for such deriliction and misappropriation and arrogance and mishandling of the specific message he gave to be delivered.
About the sex abuse - unlike Bert I was struck more by how much the F&W kids of my acquaintance resembled the lack of morals of those awful TV characters he puts in his cartoons. There seemed to be almost no teaching from the church or homes as to limits in that regard or the reasoning behind and scriptural basis - outside of the meeting environment they talked and acted pretty much without much of a compass when it came to sex and much else. Unless you bothered to look up some of those terms like fornication that you might have come across in the bible - and few seemed to have any curiosity to find out what words meant - it was just another one of those meaningless 'spiritual' terms that didn't make any impact and since it wasn't gone into during meetings it must not have been that important. All that stuff applied to 'worldly' people who were on the wide road anyhow so it didn't have to be thought of much. Yeah you'd eventually marry and an out of wedlock birth would be awkward and once married you'd never get divorced and if you didn't marry it must mean that the spirit was leading into the work - but in the meantime it was open season. Not all kids - and parents - were like that but more than the meeting appearance would lead a person viewing from the outside to suspect and its a contrast to what one sees in other groups where there is more explanation given to kids. I think that plays into the CSA situation and the situation regarding adults who are in abusive situations and even makes the behavior of some workers more understandable tho still morally indefensible.
I doubt that there are enough statistics to make a good comparison but as jondough said that doesn't mean that theres no problem in the abuse area. There is. Its made even more glaring because of the ridicule that I recalled being leveled at catholics and other churches WHENEVER an incident got into the newspapers. That would never and could never happen amongst the friends was a point of belief - even tho probably most who'd uphold that personally knew of a case where someone had slipped in that regard tho it wasn't to be discussed or reported or made much of because it would disturb the spirit of unity. I still don't know of any friends of my acquaintance who've been told they aren't to report incidents to the elders or workers or overseers and instead are to go direct to the police - so lets not get too self-satisfied that this is now taken care of.
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Post by Grant on Nov 3, 2015 14:14:51 GMT -5
Apparently being a fisherman was a respectable trade in Jesus day. Imagine a person who owns fishing boats today. I would consider them as quite wealthy.
The workers could well do with some formal training. Having a teacher with you (Jesus) and going by what you think the Holy Spirit is telling you are vastly different. After all the apostles were living in the day when the New Testament occurred. We do not. Trying to copy a book written 2,000 years ago and saying you don't need any training leaves a bit to be desired. No wonder the workers don't see fruit for their labors and their church is dying, just making gains from workers of previous generations who had come from mainstream churches with a bit more understanding and life in what they preached. Even Irvine went to Bible College. The life in the workers ministry has largely died. The Spirit gives life, the letter kills.
Bible college is just learning from others rather than just the one senior worker you are with.
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Post by SharonArnold on Nov 3, 2015 15:04:58 GMT -5
But somehow, I made it out of 2x2ism to achieve 3 degrees; including one from an Ivy League school. Curious. (Feel free to not answer if you wish.) What were these 3 degrees? Including the Ivy League school one?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 15:11:27 GMT -5
But somehow, I made it out of 2x2ism to achieve 3 degrees; including one from an Ivy League school. Curious. (Feel free to not answer if you wish.) What were these 3 degrees? Including the Ivy League school one? UPenn
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2015 15:27:59 GMT -5
1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase./understanding Who decided that increase = understanding? God
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Post by SharonArnold on Nov 3, 2015 15:38:48 GMT -5
Curious. (Feel free to not answer if you wish.) What were these 3 degrees? Including the Ivy League school one? UPenn Wharton MBA I'm Canadian, so there is a little lost in translation. But I am guessing... Business? My first thought is that there should have been more of a humanities requirement for the programs you went through. My second thought is that you are a perfect illustration for everything you have to say about 2X2ism. I have no problem with that. You are who you are, and I have no percentage in trying to change that. I am a long-time ex. I was 2X2 B&R, during which time I also achieved 3 post-secondary degrees. Not Ivy League, but my first two degrees where from a school that was considered probably #1 or #2 in the world in my area of specialization at the time. They have since lost that kind of ranking because they became too inbred (i.e., hired too many of their own graduates). My 3rd degree was from a less prestigious school, but because of who I was (older) and I how showed up, was far more educational to me than the first two. In counting 2X2's I knew of my generation, nearly half of my peers (I'm 57) acheived a university education (i.e., at least one post-secondary degree.). In counting my generation's children, it is probably closer to 80%. (There is something to be said for a socio-economic advantage, which is true for almost all the 2X2's in my geographic area.) When I taught at a post-secondary level, my first couple of lectures were devoted to telling the students that no matter what credentials they acquired, no matter how much they ever thought they knew, there was so much more (to be known) than they would EVER know. You know, reflecting back, I don't care if they remember me, or anything I taught them of the program's objectives - but there is a part of me that hopes they have a small part of the humility that I sought to instill in them in the first couple of lectures.
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