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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2015 11:39:13 GMT -5
Is this man the same Noel that once posted on here btw?
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Post by emy on Apr 15, 2015 11:41:49 GMT -5
Is this man the same Noel that once posted on here btw? No |
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Post by rational on Apr 15, 2015 11:50:30 GMT -5
Is this man the same Noel that once posted on here btw? No Nice short response. Very human like. |
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Post by snow on Apr 15, 2015 13:24:45 GMT -5
Does everyone on here know who everyone else is even with the alias? Or do people just know which workers post on here?
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Post by emy on Apr 15, 2015 16:33:28 GMT -5
I know very few people by their "real" names unless they post with them, but just happened to know "Noel's" real name!
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Post by bubbles on Apr 15, 2015 16:42:42 GMT -5
By beyond school age, I meant those who have started school but are not yet away from home. Fixit: I agree. But doesn't it seem as if some posters write as if those failings are ONLY in the culture of the fellowship? There are no humans, even those who follow Jesus and have God's Spirit in their hearts, who will never fail or sin. If they fall into sexual immorality they are not very serious about ministry and would be better to do something else with their lives. If they sexually abuse a child, they can never again be trusted around children. The fellowship culture that needs to change is the concept that workers are not accountable to the friends, and that the friends will be blessed for submitting to the workers even when they're wrong. Also the idea that children are somehow to blame for getting abused. And that CSA should be dealt with internally and covered up "for the kingdom's sake". Here's an example of professing culture that needs to change: Fixit That last sentence is astounding! Shouldnt they be saying. Ok. Theres something wrong here. Lets go back to god. No new workers equates to me problems. It should have been the first alarm bell. Is this why the meetings are shrinking? CSA? Probably. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 15, 2015 17:33:04 GMT -5
If they fall into sexual immorality they are not very serious about ministry and would be better to do something else with their lives. If they sexually abuse a child, they can never again be trusted around children. The fellowship culture that needs to change is the concept that workers are not accountable to the friends, and that the friends will be blessed for submitting to the workers even when they're wrong. Also the idea that children are somehow to blame for getting abused. And that CSA should be dealt with internally and covered up "for the kingdom's sake". Here's an example of professing culture that needs to change: My uncle, Tom Young, a worker in Canada, was sent down to talk to me, before I was put out of the church. The desire of the head overseers in the eastern half of the USA, was that I be shut up, and left in the group. They hoped that Tom could accomplish this. In the process, my uncle told me and my mother (Tom’s sister), “that this had happened many times in Canada (workers molesting children), and that the girls get over it and ‘we’ can’t put the workers out, because we have so few workers, and need them so bad.”Fixit That last sentence is astounding! Shouldnt they be saying. Ok. Theres something wrong here. Lets go back to god. No new workers equates to me problems. It should have been the first alarm bell. Is this why the meetings are shrinking? CSA? Probably. It is changing, but from the bottom up and with the help of secular authorities. |
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 9:20:14 GMT -5
If they fall into sexual immorality they are not very serious about ministry and would be better to do something else with their lives. If they sexually abuse a child, they can never again be trusted around children. The fellowship culture that needs to change is the concept that workers are not accountable to the friends, and that the friends will be blessed for submitting to the workers even when they're wrong. Also the idea that children are somehow to blame for getting abused. And that CSA should be dealt with internally and covered up "for the kingdom's sake". Here's an example of professing culture that needs to change: Fixit That last sentence is astounding! Shouldnt they be saying. Ok. Theres something wrong here. Lets go back to god. No new workers equates to me problems. It should have been the first alarm bell. Is this why the meetings are shrinking? CSA? Probably. It's sad that they keep those who should not be in the ministry so they wouldn't lose workers, but as a result end up losing those who should be in the ministry, like Graham Thompson and Steve Shultz. It seems that the number of workers should be is less important than the quality of workers. This choice has an impact on the whole church. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Apr 16, 2015 10:30:04 GMT -5
Emy Nice short response. Very friends/worker like. What problem is beating up on emy going to solve? That kind of action so transparent - and pathetic. Is it really that necessary to condemn others? |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 16, 2015 12:34:28 GMT -5
Fixit That last sentence is astounding! Shouldnt they be saying. Ok. Theres something wrong here. Lets go back to god. No new workers equates to me problems. It should have been the first alarm bell. Is this why the meetings are shrinking? CSA? Probably. It is changing, but from the bottom up and with the help of secular authorities. Should be other way round. |
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Post by rational on Apr 16, 2015 12:36:12 GMT -5
It is changing, but from the bottom up and with the help of secular authorities. Should be other way round. Stick with reality, it works. |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 16, 2015 12:37:48 GMT -5
Should be other way round. Stick with reality, it works. Like to make a coffee to open my eyes please? |
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Post by rational on Apr 16, 2015 12:43:54 GMT -5
Stick with reality, it works. Like to make a coffee to open my eyes please? You should get together with mdm! |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 16, 2015 13:01:39 GMT -5
Like to make a coffee to open my eyes please? You should get together with mdm! Lol..why do you suggest that? Of course I would love to. I doubt shes in my kneck of the woods tho. |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 16, 2015 13:03:17 GMT -5
Does everyone on here know who everyone else is even with the alias? Or do people just know which workers post on here? I know who one is that posts. |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 16, 2015 13:12:48 GMT -5
Is this man the same Noel that once posted on here btw? No I get so lost. You all nattering while im alseep. wake up to find the conversation going in another direction. Lol...you talking about noels/review500? He is a worker. |
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 15:13:39 GMT -5
You should get together with mdm! Lol..why do you suggest that? Of course I would love to. I doubt shes in my kneck of the woods tho. Coffee? Anytime! Bubbles? Anytime! Rational is suggesting we both like coffee and we both wish for a reality that doesn't match the present one. Apparently, he thinks it's something 'irrational.' But, I am thankful for people with a vision for a better reality and who work toward it. What would this world be without them?? |
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Post by rational on Apr 16, 2015 15:37:47 GMT -5
Coffee? Anytime! Bubbles? Anytime! Rational is suggesting we both like coffee and we both wish for a reality that doesn't match the present one. Apparently, he thinks it's something 'irrational.' But, I am thankful for people with a vision for a better reality and who work toward it. What would this world be without them?? It depends. If the people with a vision are looking for a place where their religious beliefs are the law of the land I would say it will be a sad world. There is nothing to say that the 'better reality' of one person will mesh well with your reality. Who knows - a better reality might be based on reality! |
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Post by mdm on Apr 16, 2015 16:19:51 GMT -5
Coffee? Anytime! Bubbles? Anytime! Rational is suggesting we both like coffee and we both wish for a reality that doesn't match the present one. Apparently, he thinks it's something 'irrational.' But, I am thankful for people with a vision for a better reality and who work toward it. What would this world be without them?? It depends. If the people with a vision are looking for a place where their religious beliefs are the law of the land I would say it will be a sad world. There is nothing to say that the 'better reality' of one person will mesh well with your reality. Who knows - a better reality might be based on reality! I sure missed any talk here about religious beliefs being the law of the land. I thought it was about protecting children from CSA and in particular how it's handled by the church. |
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Post by snow on Apr 16, 2015 16:33:32 GMT -5
I get so lost. You all nattering while im alseep. wake up to find the conversation going in another direction. Lol...you talking about noels/review500? He is a worker. Oh ok. I can't keep track of all the alias changes and name changes. I figured out some of them over time (not their real names) just that it was the same person with a different alias. |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 16, 2015 18:15:55 GMT -5
Lol..why do you suggest that? Of course I would love to. I doubt shes in my kneck of the woods tho. Coffee? Anytime! Bubbles? Anytime! Rational is suggesting we both like coffee and we both wish for a reality that doesn't match the present one. Apparently, he thinks it's something 'irrational.' But, I am thankful for people with a vision for a better reality and who work toward it. What would this world be without them?? I have never considered that aiming for the best is irrational. I agree maja. Our world could be a far better place.. Without a vision people perish.  which to me would include everyone healed and set free. |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 16, 2015 18:19:17 GMT -5
It depends. If the people with a vision are looking for a place where their religious beliefs are the law of the land I would say it will be a sad world. There is nothing to say that the 'better reality' of one person will mesh well with your reality. Who knows - a better reality might be based on reality! I sure missed any talk here about religious beliefs being the law of the land. I thought it was about protecting children from CSA and in particular how it's handled by the church. Its ok snow. I took it sidewides in my ignorance then ratz took it down another street. |
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Post by snow on Apr 16, 2015 19:28:18 GMT -5
I sure missed any talk here about religious beliefs being the law of the land. I thought it was about protecting children from CSA and in particular how it's handled by the church. Its ok snow. I took it sidewides in my ignorance then ratz took it down another street. ?? |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 16, 2015 20:24:33 GMT -5
Its ok snow. I took it sidewides in my ignorance then ratz took it down another street. ?? OP...noelharvey... I responded to you I knew noels/review500 Ratz suggests I meet with maja which leads to the suggestion on reality. Back to CSA... |
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Post by rational on Apr 16, 2015 22:41:18 GMT -5
It depends. If the people with a vision are looking for a place where their religious beliefs are the law of the land I would say it will be a sad world. There is nothing to say that the 'better reality' of one person will mesh well with your reality. Who knows - a better reality might be based on reality! I sure missed any talk here about religious beliefs being the law of the land. They were hypothetical examples of what some people with vision might think was a better place. What is better for one person might not be better for another. |
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Post by withlove on Apr 16, 2015 23:32:52 GMT -5
Rational, Who would it be worse for if the positive changes with CSA handling were happening top-down?
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Post by bubbles on Apr 16, 2015 23:33:37 GMT -5
I sure missed any talk here about religious beliefs being the law of the land. They were hypothetical examples of what some people with vision might think was a better place. What is better for one person might not be better for another. True. I know a friend of a friend who has painted Eygyptian pharoh hyroglifics all over her house. I couldnt live with that. |
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Post by rational on Apr 17, 2015 7:50:12 GMT -5
Rational, Who would it be worse for if the positive changes with CSA handling were happening top-down? From experience, the future victims. Organizations, especially those who have given their leading members (overseers, workers elders, priests, etc.) special powers, have in the past turned a blind eye towards abuse and have tried to deal with the offenders on their own. The results have not been good. Sure, everyone in the organization is a human and as a human they should all try to prevent child abuse and report known instances of abuse or suspected instances of abuse to the authorities. You could say this is the goal. Just as importantly, the leaders need to make sure all the members know that reporting abuse to the authorities is their only option. Realistically, when you believe that a person is the only path to eternal salvation you probably do not want to report that person to the authorities. Past experience has shown that those who do the right thing and report abuse are not treated kindly. Hopefully this will change. There is also a lot of ill feelings, anger, hostility of some towards the F&W as a group and the workers as individuals. In some cases the blame is directed to the group for many reasons and to the overseers for allowing some workers suspected/accused of abusing children and of sexual abuse to continue to function as workers. Because of the culture reporting these criminals is a difficult choice. While this is probably still the case hopefully things will change both in the treatment of people who do the right thing and the realization that all the wrongs are not the fault of the workers and the group as a whole. People need to take responsibility for their own actions actions or lack of action. The bottom line is that the cooperation of the victims/guardians, usually the people at the bottom, is the best way to have an offender removed from endangering others. It would be great if the people at the top would get involved and encourage/help the members act but even if they don't the change can come from the bottom up. In management there is top-down change and bottom-up change. For a change initiative to be most successful the top management has to communicate and the employees have to respond. Generally, if the employees (members) do not embrace the initiative the top management cannot force it to happen. On the other hand, the members can frequently can implement change even in face of opposition of the top management. Many who post here have mentioned that the fact that someone was abusing children was known prior to the person being reported to the authorities and charged with a crime. People have posted that they tried to tell their parents and were told not to mention it again. Children were seen in compromising situations with workers by their parents and the blame was placed on the child and the offender went on to offend others. Others have said that there was pressure from leaders not to report abuse because the offender had repented. I am not sure that all members and leaders have a vested interest in radical change. |
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which to me would include everyone healed and set free.