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Post by emy on Apr 13, 2015 0:36:24 GMT -5
I understand several accusations were made about this man and and have no reason to doubt they were true. But please take the first part of the verse as seriously as what you emphasized. I'm not sure that I understand where you're going with this Emy. Are you suggesting there should be no accusation unless two or three CSA victims come forward to accuse the perpetrator? I think Paul was supporting Jesus' teaching about settling offenses. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 13, 2015 1:02:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure that I understand where you're going with this Emy. Are you suggesting there should be no accusation unless two or three CSA victims come forward to accuse the perpetrator? I think Paul was supporting Jesus' teaching about settling offenses. Posts like this make me thankful that secular authorities are stepping up to take care of child sexual abuse issues, and not leaving it to religious groups. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 13, 2015 1:05:42 GMT -5
Much of what I was saying was not specific to CSA, but abooout children in general... not all kids are innocent! Yes, kids might steal a cookie or put a ball through a window. That might be better discussed on a different thread. |
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Post by emy on Apr 13, 2015 1:32:52 GMT -5
I think Paul was supporting Jesus' teaching about settling offenses. Posts like this make me thankful that secular authorities are stepping up to take care of child sexual abuse issues, and not leaving it to religious groups.  Would you prefer that an incident of CSA could be taken to an elder/worker and investigated by the church? CSA is not the only offense that is committed and not everything I write is directed at CSA.. I was answering your question about how I view that verse. I think I had already said that it's important for CSA to be reported properly and investigated by professionals. |
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Post by withlove on Apr 13, 2015 1:39:50 GMT -5
Maybe it would depend on the child's personality and history, and family dynamics, whether a parent would doubt a CSA story from the child. If only people understood they should go to the professionals for help. It's not something you make assumptions about.
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2015 8:00:12 GMT -5
The training is really brief. Report cases of child abuse or suspected cases of child abuse to the authorities. They have the training. How would you suggest this could be taught? had an excellent idea. No , I haven't. Parents need to be responsible for their children. If parents have close friends that they trust to take care of their children and one turns out to be a child abuser they have placed their child in danger. They are not to blame but the situation is the result of their actions. If those friends are workers it is no different than if they were trusted members of Hell's Angels. You can't blame the organization for the problem. The blame is clearly on the individual abuser. It certainly is not practical for parents to be with their children all of the time but that does not relieve them of their responsibility. Of course, if prevention is the goal then the hyper focus needs to be not on the isolated cases that happen outside the family but on the cases of abuse that happen within the family. As far as the important aspect of training to prevent child abuse - the parents need to teach their children, from a very young age, what is and what isn't OK. This means empowering them to say "No!" and to be able to talk to their parents about anything without fear or repercussion. It also means that the parents have to look at everyone as a possible threat to their children and not place their children in situations where they could be harmed unless the parents themselves are confident that the children are safe. And the parents need to do all this while not destroying the innocence of childhood. Being a parent is not an easy job. But perhaps I am missing the point. What are your ideas of preventing child abuse? Is it focused on keeping the children safe or identifying individuals before they offend? |
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2015 8:03:53 GMT -5
Along with everyone else, I cringe at the thought of an adult taking advantage of a child, but my point really was that innocence (in any event) is not universally a characteristic of a child old enough to prevaricate if it will get him out of trouble. Generally speaking, the word of an any adult will have more weight than that of a child.I was with you 100% up until the highlighted part of the post. This is why a child reporting abuse frequently does not get heard - an adult says it didn't happen and the child is dismissed. You need to weigh what each says in the light of where they are coming from. |
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2015 8:04:42 GMT -5
Maybe it would depend on the child's personality and history, and family dynamics, whether a parent would doubt a CSA story from the child. If only people understood they should go to the professionals for help. It's not something you make assumptions about. It seems like such a simple rule.... |
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Post by mdm on Apr 13, 2015 9:45:59 GMT -5
I think implying this as culture staple in the fellowship is greatly exaggerating. Because a few workers have made such statements does not mean all of them hold that attitude. I have not found such to be true, and except for this board, have not heard it expressed by other friends. Emy, may I suggest that perhaps the reason why you've never heard of this "culture staple" except on this board is that you've never been in a situation to push for answers about controversial and unpleasant subjects? Also, may I suggest that refusal to answer questions and acknowledge and apologize for mistakes is equally evidence of lack of accountability to the friends (and lower-ranking workers) and of expectation on the part of senior workers (the decision-making ones) that those below them in hierarchy will submit to them without questioning their decisions. |
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2015 10:26:01 GMT -5
There seems to be the repeated call for people to apologize for their deeds.
Why is this such an oft repeated request? What will the apology accomplish?
It reminds me of parents to make their children say they are sorry for something they have done. The child, being a child, simply says "I'm sorry" and goes about their business. If the wrong is pointed out to the child and there is no forthcoming "Sorry" chances are that the child is not really sorry.
When abusers get caught the one thing they are sorry about is that they got caught. The workers have been put on a pedestal next to god and some of them probably believe they can do no wrong. Why would they apologize? Especially to the people who have placed and kept them on their pedestal. Does anyone believe LW thinks he was wrong?
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Post by withlove on Apr 13, 2015 10:50:10 GMT -5
There seems to be the repeated call for people to apologize for their deeds. Why is this such an oft repeated request? What will the apology accomplish? It reminds me of parents to make their children say they are sorry for something they have done. The child, being a child, simply says "I'm sorry" and goes about their business. If the wrong is pointed out to the child and there is no forthcoming "Sorry" chances are that the child is not really sorry. When abusers get caught the one thing they are sorry about is that they got caught. The workers have been put on a pedestal next to god and some of them probably believe they can do no wrong. Why would they apologize? Especially to the people who have placed and kept them on their pedestal. Does anyone believe LW thinks he was wrong? Hmm. Apologies would be worthless if they weren't meant. I care less about apologies from people like LW who don't admit they've abused, and more about apologies from the "good" overseers...the lay people are owed and deserve (whether they know or admit it or not) an admission of the cover-ups and mis-management that go back to the beginning of the movement, and a humble and sincere statement of intentions of transparency moving forward. |
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2015 10:56:41 GMT -5
There seems to be the repeated call for people to apologize for their deeds. Why is this such an oft repeated request? What will the apology accomplish? It reminds me of parents to make their children say they are sorry for something they have done. The child, being a child, simply says "I'm sorry" and goes about their business. If the wrong is pointed out to the child and there is no forthcoming "Sorry" chances are that the child is not really sorry. When abusers get caught the one thing they are sorry about is that they got caught. The workers have been put on a pedestal next to god and some of them probably believe they can do no wrong. Why would they apologize? Especially to the people who have placed and kept them on their pedestal. Does anyone believe LW thinks he was wrong? Hmm. Apologies would be worthless if they weren't meant. I care less about apologies from people like LW who don't admit they've abused, and more about apologies from the "good" overseers...the lay people are owed and deserve (whether they know or admit it or not) an admission of the cover-ups and mis-management that go back to the beginning of the movement, and a humble and sincere statement of intentions of transparency moving forward. So you would be seeking an apology from someone who was perhaps not even in the work when early cover-up happened? I agree that an admission of past wrong doing and the path forward would be helpful. |
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Post by withlove on Apr 13, 2015 11:04:27 GMT -5
Hmm. Apologies would be worthless if they weren't meant. I care less about apologies from people like LW who don't admit they've abused, and more about apologies from the "good" overseers...the lay people are owed and deserve (whether they know or admit it or not) an admission of the cover-ups and mis-management that go back to the beginning of the movement, and a humble and sincere statement of intentions of transparency moving forward. So you would be seeking an apology from someone who was perhaps not even in the work when early cover-up happened? I agree that an admission of past wrong doing and the path forward would be helpful. A PR person or CEO might apologize for something the company did before he/she was hired. An acknowledgement, a full one, would be fine really if it was honest, and if it was followed by a clear apology for what happened in the worker's tenure. I love how Graham spoke about it, even though he was appalled by what had been going on he was the one trying to make things right. |
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rs
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Post by rs on Apr 13, 2015 14:40:48 GMT -5
'Parents need to be responsible for their children.'
'It also means that the parents have to look at everyone as a possible threat to their children and not place their children in situations where they could be harmed unless the parents themselves are confident that the children are safe.'
...not so long ago on here I was told it was a very sad statement when I said I would choose not to take my children to a meeting where there was a known child sex abuser...maybe just a parent taking responsibility??
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2015 15:14:39 GMT -5
...not so long ago on here I was told it was a very sad statement when I said I would choose not to take my children to a meeting where there was a known child sex abuser...maybe just a parent taking responsibility?? Had you planned on leaving your children alone with the known sex offender? How many places do you go where there are unknown sex offenders? Perhaps the same precautions should be used in either case. Knowing a person is a sex offender makes it very easy to protect your children. Not by wrapping them up in bubble wrap but by informing them of the danger. You don’t want to terrify your children but do want to give your them factual information as well as skills to keep safe. Explain that the person has tried to trick children before. If this person tries to talk to them while alone the child should take 3 steps back and run and tell you or another trusted adult. Of course, your children already know what to do if anyone — family, friend, acquaintance, neighbor, or stranger — is approaching them in a sexual, threatening, or inappropriate way. Explaining about the known offender is just reinforcing what the children have already been taught. |
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2015 15:35:19 GMT -5
So you would be seeking an apology from someone who was perhaps not even in the work when early cover-up happened? I agree that an admission of past wrong doing and the path forward would be helpful. A PR person or CEO might apologize for something the company did before he/she was hired. An acknowledgement, a full one, would be fine really if it was honest, and if it was followed by a clear apology for what happened in the worker's tenure. I love how Graham spoke about it, even though he was appalled by what had been going on he was the one trying to make things right. You are, of course, right. I recall that Ken Thompson the CEO of Wachovia said that two companies Wachovia had acquired had owned slaves. He apologized to all Americans, and especially to African-Americans. Since none of this had anything to do with Ken, for what, exactly, was he apologizing? I could understand acknowledging the errors and stating that this would not happen in the future. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 13, 2015 15:36:25 GMT -5
How would you suggest this could be taught? had an excellent idea. Yes she did. How would you suggest this could be implemented, and is there a Plan B if the workers are not willing? |
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Post by fixit on Apr 13, 2015 15:48:31 GMT -5
There seems to be the repeated call for people to apologize for their deeds. Why is this such an oft repeated request? What will the apology accomplish? It reminds me of parents to make their children say they are sorry for something they have done. The child, being a child, simply says "I'm sorry" and goes about their business. If the wrong is pointed out to the child and there is no forthcoming "Sorry" chances are that the child is not really sorry. When abusers get caught the one thing they are sorry about is that they got caught. The workers have been put on a pedestal next to god and some of them probably believe they can do no wrong. Why would they apologize? Especially to the people who have placed and kept them on their pedestal. Does anyone believe LW thinks he was wrong? John the Baptist called for folks coming to him for baptism to bring forth fruits meet for repentance. When a CSA offender hasn't apologised to his victims, should he be considered repentant? |
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2015 17:14:25 GMT -5
snow had an excellent idea. Yes she did. How would you suggest this could be implemented,... I believe snow said that the workers would make the announcement from the platform/in a meeting.Plan B would be to realize that it is a criminal issue and not a church/spiritual issue. If the children were being murdered instead of abused I am sure the killers would be reported to the authorities. Well, I hope they would. There are some things that cannot be fixed. People who believe that god is in control of the universe are willing to leave these things in god's hands and are not likely to change their beliefs. And they believe that reporting the abuser might jeopardize their chances of eternal life. Turning the tide against logic like that is very difficult. This is not just an F&W issue. There are many religious organizations where it has been discovered that people are being abused but not willing to report it to authorities. Legal actions against the organizations sometimes works. |
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Post by emy on Apr 13, 2015 21:20:49 GMT -5
Along with everyone else, I cringe at the thought of an adult taking advantage of a child, but my point really was that innocence (in any event) is not universally a characteristic of a child old enough to prevaricate if it will get him out of trouble. Generally speaking, the word of an any adult will have more weight than that of a child.I was with you 100% up until the highlighted part of the post. This is why a child reporting abuse frequently does not get heard - an adult says it didn't happen and the child is dismissed. You need to weigh what each says in the light of where they are coming from. Maybe I wasn't clear that 'generally speaking' wasn't intended to include abuse of any kind. Rather it referred to things like fixit mentioned... breaking a window? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 8:02:44 GMT -5
Emy, I have a question. Have you ever discuss CSA with workers that are staying in your home?
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Post by emy on Apr 14, 2015 14:00:49 GMT -5
Have you ever discuss CSA with workers that are staying in your home?
Yes
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 14:39:00 GMT -5
Emy
Nice short response. Very friends/worker like.
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Post by rational on Apr 14, 2015 16:12:17 GMT -5
Emy Nice short response. Very friends/worker like. You asked a question and she answered it. Really has nothing to do with anything other than human conversation. She makes up for my verbose posts! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2015 17:04:49 GMT -5
Rat, I was not talking to YOU!
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Post by rational on Apr 14, 2015 17:45:15 GMT -5
Rat, I was not talking to YOU! I didn't think you were. If you really wanted to have a one-on-one conversation with Emy, without any input from anyone else, perhaps a Personal Message would have been a better option. But then, of course, no one would have been able to read your comment. You should always feel free to ignore any comments I might make. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2015 7:20:26 GMT -5
Rat, I do!!!
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Post by rational on Apr 15, 2015 8:07:43 GMT -5
I don't recall asking but this doesn't mean we are married does it? |
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Would you prefer that an incident of CSA could be taken to an elder/worker and investigated by the church? CSA is not the only offense that is committed and not everything I write is directed at CSA.. I was answering your question about how I view that verse. I think I had already said that it's important for CSA to be reported properly and investigated by professionals.
