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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 23, 2013 9:57:19 GMT -5
We can't live with the present day reality, and neither can the friends or the workers. Yes, time for some to crap now or get off the pot!What do you mean, Ram? Are you suggesting that the people on WINGS do such OR you speaking about the 2x2's in general>
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 23, 2013 10:10:23 GMT -5
Edgar's clear and incontestable objective is to discredit the ministry. Hence, any improvement by the ministry for the better of CSA victims would only make it more difficult for Edgar. While I'm sure that Edgar doesn't wish for anyone to be a victim of CSA, the unfortunate reality is that his objective to attack the ministry makes him opposed to any positive change within it and is, therefore not in the best interests of victims. Let's see beyond the politics here and support what is in the best interests of the victims, past, present, and potential. Could it be that 2x2-haters are afraid that the church would change for the better, and so make it harder for them to condemn it? I think the "condemnation" comes from the fact that such illegal things were happening AT ALL in the 2x2 religion......we all have been led to believe from our infancy on up that the 2x2 religion is "THE ONLY TRUE WAY" AND most humans think that if something is the "ONLY" then it has to be perfect and all that have anything to do with it would be doing "ONLY" correct and positive things. For example, that even the "fornication" that we've heard so much about in the workership has been something that the workers seem to accept and instead of making the fornicating worker get married they just turn their heads and refuse to see the "sin" that fornication really is according to the bible....they seem to say well it's just human nature....well they need to be looking to what it is within their workership/fellowship that is playing this falsely and letting it continue! When they get down to the very nitty gritty sins that's been going on in the workership they will by all means have gotten to the core problem and then the workership can be declared "changed for the better"....but as many of us exes have stayed with the fellowship beyond years of feeling things were so right or so wrong, trying to be the "change" we see is needed, but then we're forced out by one means or another! Those who've been forced out with succeeding shunning and very wrong gossiping about their spirit's well being are the ones who are suffering great pain and yes, when that happens one just wants what has caused the pain to be completely eliminated so that others or they themselves suffer this great emotional and mental pains.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 10:37:56 GMT -5
Yes, time for some to crap now or get off the pot! What do you mean, Ram? Are you suggesting that the people on WINGS do such OR you speaking about the 2x2's in general> What I was meaning was that if the workers (or friends)aren't prepared to do the right thing, they should disappear and leave things to others who will. Nothing to do with WINGS!
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 23, 2013 11:18:29 GMT -5
If Edgar would fully support this type of approach, then he'll get no argument from me! Up until now, he's maintained that NO worker should have any influence on WINGS. Edgar likes to ask questions, but he generally doesn't answer when you ask him a question. Very true. He hasn't answered the questions I asked him.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 23, 2013 13:22:26 GMT -5
Edgar likes to ask questions, but he generally doesn't answer when you ask him a question. Very true. He hasn't answered the questions I asked him. Come to think of it, you did ask him to back up some of his assertions. At least I know it's not just me.
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Post by fixit on Aug 23, 2013 15:36:53 GMT -5
Does Edgar actually care about people as much as he cares about condemning 2x2ism?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 16:20:53 GMT -5
Does Edgar actually care about people as much as he cares about condemning 2x2ism? I think that if you knew Edgar personally or talked to him on the phone, you would find a caring, engaging person of sound mind. I have to say though that the extreme anti-2x2ism we see here is a mystery to me.
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Post by holdmyhand on Aug 23, 2013 16:28:08 GMT -5
I am for positive influence regardless of where it comes from and posting letters from workers and sermons that support change is great My concern is that anyone who has had a serious abuse or other problem in the fellowship knows that it is impossible for any worker to remain neutral, they may start out expressing concern and shaking their head about the situation but unless you accept the OS opinion of how it should be dealt with you quickly learn workers change in a flash to fit in with company policy, . Anyone who has experienced this will have reservations about letting workers have much influence, they are not trustworthy when the pressure is applied. I see the best influence workers can have is behind the scene mostly out of the public eye, and when they do speak publicly if it is independently like GT did and reported it on WINGS but not under the umbrella of WINGS that will have more credibility in the eyes of abused, and keep WINGS looking independent and neutral Influence can be both good and bad, abused persons mostly see the bad from workers, many OS see it as there God given responsibility to control and enforce their beliefs without questions, and their first priority is damage control, at the expense of all else, you mentioned having workers involved was like teachers working at cleaning up abuse in schools, there is a big difference in that a teacher can disagree with the principle and still keep his job. In the work you have to abide by the dictator or risk a major lifestyle change, remember Steve S I see sharing information from all sources the best way for WINGS to be helpful Apart from not remembering Steve S (I have no idea who he is), I agree with most of your post. What I don't agree with is broad-brushing all workers as the same. We have many, many wonderful workers who are caring shepherds with a true concern for their flock. We do have many wonderful workers who are caring, so long as everything is going along alright. but as I said the people who experience serious abuse in the fellowship and are not prepared to accept wrong opinions from OS soon find the caring shepherds have become hirelings and their concern is for themselves. IF you haven't experienced serious abuse you probably cannot understand what I am saying.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 23, 2013 16:59:36 GMT -5
Does Edgar actually care about people as much as he cares about condemning 2x2ism? I think that if you knew Edgar personally or talked to him on the phone, you would find a caring, engaging person of sound mind. I have to say though that the extreme anti-2x2ism we see here is a mystery to me. Edgar and I have been quite 'in your face' with each other here on the board, but we are quite civil on facebook and in other conversations we have had over the years. He is out boating today, and having a great time. He normally only posts pictures of his family, so here is one of just he and his wife. It is hot here, and I would like to be out with them! Of course we would probably end up in a big ol' fight. Me pulling a gun and him waving a fig leaf at me....... LOL!!
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 23, 2013 19:56:27 GMT -5
Does Edgar actually care about people as much as he cares about condemning 2x2ism? I think that if you knew Edgar personally or talked to him on the phone, you would find a caring, engaging person of sound mind. I have to say though that the extreme anti-2x2ism we see here is a mystery to me. I don't find it a mystery myself..considering how and what Edgar or his family has been through negatively in connection with the 2x2's plus he's been approached with a horrible situation in another country that the 2x2's have gone off their rocker in trying to be big guns, etc.....just a sign of the times and the horrid experiences some have faced and are facing due to the negative actions of some of the leaders within the 2x2 religion! Think about it! Please!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 20:35:29 GMT -5
I think that if you knew Edgar personally or talked to him on the phone, you would find a caring, engaging person of sound mind. I have to say though that the extreme anti-2x2ism we see here is a mystery to me. I don't find it a mystery myself..considering how and what Edgar or his family has been through negatively in connection with the 2x2's plus he's been approached with a horrible situation in another country that the 2x2's have gone off their rocker in trying to be big guns, etc.....just a sign of the times and the horrid experiences some have faced and are facing due to the negative actions of some of the leaders within the 2x2 religion! Think about it! Please! Believe me, I've thought about it. If I got booted out like Edgar did, it would be: "see ya later, have a nice life fellas!" Here is something for you to think about: 2x2ism is a tiny speck of a religious group, essentially inconsequential to the world in the big picture. So you get booted out by an inconsequential speck...... why would that upset you for more than a few months, especially if you are non-exclusive? Sure, it would mean some separation from old friends, but true old friends will remain friends. Otherwise, it's a big beautiful world out there to explore and enjoy....and practice your faith as you see fit. Here is something else to think about: Edgar is a big boy, a nice guy, has a beautiful family, lives in a beautiful country. What could possibly be cause for extreme anti-2x2ism a decade after getting the boot? If it is as bad as he claims, one would think he should be thanking them for giving him the toss and celebrating his good fortune at least annually! I would like to hear Edgar's explanation for his total and perpetual anti-2x2ism.
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Post by fixit on Aug 23, 2013 20:57:00 GMT -5
Did Edgar actually get the boot?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 22:20:11 GMT -5
Did Edgar actually get the boot? In the Alice in Wonderland world of 2x2 excommunications, it depends on how the story is told. When you are told that the only meeting in the area won't accept your attendance, I would call that the boot.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 9:59:49 GMT -5
A number of points have been made about my person -- I can agree that I am far more confrontive on this board than in one to one discussion. The reason for this is that my major complaint is not the individuals involved with 2x2ism. I have great respect for many of them (example - clearday and many others) -- It is with the basic doctrine and policy of the group as a whole, which I firmly believe is clearly anti-christian and an organizational doctrine that supports most of the vises that Jesus clearly spoke against. (self-righteousness, hypocrisy, virtues of outward appearance etc etc)
This board gives a fairly unique chance to confront 2x2ism without directly confronting the individuals that unwittingly bare this ugly doctrine. 2x2ism, as such, is difficult to confront because it nearly always cowardly hides behind the back of well meaning individuals ... and then uses these same individuals to fullfill its ugly work. The prime work/(gospel) of 2x2ism is to hijack the hearts and lives of good people, and then use their goodness and capacity to fullfill the self centered and counter-Christian goals of the 2x2 organization.
Matt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
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Post by Persona non grata on Aug 26, 2013 12:19:58 GMT -5
Does Edgar actually care about people as much as he cares about condemning 2x2ism? I think that if you knew Edgar personally or talked to him on the phone, you would find a caring, engaging person of sound mind. I have to say though that the extreme anti-2x2ism we see here is a mystery to me. I agree and I'm sure that the vast majority here are nice people who'd get along rather well in person. Where we have disagreements here on the board, it's important that we only attack the content of the post and not the character of the poster.
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Post by Persona non grata on Aug 26, 2013 12:28:11 GMT -5
A number of points have been made about my person -- I can agree that I am far more confrontive on this board than in one to one discussion. The reason for this is that my major complaint is not the individuals involved with 2x2ism. I have great respect for many of them (example - clearday and many others) -- It is with the basic doctrine and policy of the group as a whole, which I firmly believe is clearly anti-christian and an organizational doctrine that supports most of the vises that Jesus clearly spoke against. (self-righteousness, hypocrisy, virtues of outward appearance etc etc) This board gives a fairly unique chance to confront 2x2ism without directly confronting the individuals that unwittingly bare this ugly doctrine. 2x2ism, as such, is difficult to confront because it nearly always cowardly hides behind the back of well meaning individuals ... and then uses these same individuals to fullfill its ugly work. The prime work/(gospel) of 2x2ism is to hijack the hearts and lives of good people, and then use their goodness and capacity to fullfill the self centered and counter-Christian goals of the 2x2 organization. Matt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. I hadn't got so far as your post, Edgar, when I made my previous post but I guess you prove the point. Although we don't always agree on everything, I appreciate you and your contribution to the board.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 26, 2013 12:46:24 GMT -5
A number of points have been made about my person -- I can agree that I am far more confrontive on this board than in one to one discussion. The reason for this is that my major complaint is not the individuals involved with 2x2ism. I have great respect for many of them (example - clearday and many others) -- It is with the basic doctrine and policy of the group as a whole, which I firmly believe is clearly anti-christian and an organizational doctrine that supports most of the vises that Jesus clearly spoke against. (self-righteousness, hypocrisy, virtues of outward appearance etc etc) This board gives a fairly unique chance to confront 2x2ism without directly confronting the individuals that unwittingly bare this ugly doctrine. 2x2ism, as such, is difficult to confront because it nearly always cowardly hides behind the back of well meaning individuals ... and then uses these same individuals to fullfill its ugly work. The prime work/(gospel) of 2x2ism is to hijack the hearts and lives of good people, and then use their goodness and capacity to fullfill the self centered and counter-Christian goals of the 2x2 organization. Matt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. I hadn't got so far as your post, Edgar, when I made my previous post but I guess you prove the point. Although we don't always agree on everything, I appreciate you and your contribution to the board. I agree with you persona non grata.
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