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Post by dmmichgood on Aug 21, 2013 21:33:37 GMT -5
Posterchild, perhaps you've uncovered the "real" problem! As victims more often are going to be very anti-establishment that their perpatrators of abuse are seeking more to "restore" the perp then the victim....we are going to see more victims as anti-2x2ism then we will find victims that are pro-2x2ism! This is the nature of mankind! So yes, we're going to se that "both sides" are full of evidence of the "pro's and con's" in accordance to the religious base.....that said NOT all pro's or con's or going to be having their "agenda" but are seeking to "tell it like it is" from their experienced viewpoint. Too bad that we couldn't just come to the conclusion until ALL people experience the same exact thing there ARE going to be people who are pro and who are con! This is where the "love" factor should take over, IMO.....and yes, I understand that is almost impossible in some instances! With God nothing is impossible. The first step in making it happen is believe it will happen. If, "With God nothing is impossible," where has He/She been all the years that this abuse has been going on?
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Post by snow on Aug 21, 2013 22:08:47 GMT -5
With God nothing is impossible. The first step in making it happen is believe it will happen. If, "With God nothing is impossible," where has He/She been all the years that this abuse has been going on?
Maybe he's been waiting for Step 2 which is humans taking action, directed by their beliefs?
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Post by swarupa on Aug 21, 2013 22:45:47 GMT -5
Fire the free loaders i say
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 1:17:55 GMT -5
Interesting how the so 2x2 typical ban on 'critisizing the workers' has so clearly become Wings policy of recent times --- Even CSA victims are discouraged from expressing feelings that might be interpreted as 2x2 negative. This kind of censorship may sound reasonable to 2x2 supporters -- but it very clearly breaks even the most fundimental principles in dealing with the trauma and psycological destruction of CSA. "Don't coach the expression and feelings of victims!!"
The influence of the 2x2 supporter falang on Wings has made itself quite evident the last 6 months -- and in my opinion,very very effectively 'wing clipped' any positive influence the site may have on the issue.
Don't forget that however the issue is twisted and turned and painted pink, it IS the work that IS the major problem in implimenting safety and solution. -- it is NOT the victims (with their critical spirit) that are at blame and it is definately NOT the victims who should bare any responsibility for marketing 2x2ism as something good.
For most CSA victims 2x2ism has clearly and uncontestably betrayed them -- now Wings with its own set of internal interests and self-admiration, is unfortunately well on its way to do the same.
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Post by fixit on Aug 22, 2013 3:14:08 GMT -5
Interesting how the so 2x2 typical ban on 'critisizing the workers' has so clearly become Wings policy of recent times Edgar, your endless repetition of anti-Wings rhetoric will only drive people to the Wings website where they'll soon realise your allegations are nonsense. Clearday said it well: Definitely, we are all grateful for Edgar's interest in WINGS which has raised the profile of WINGS and as a result, CSA. It's all good..... regardless of Edgar's occasionally-odd pronouncements regarding WINGS. For direct support, there is the BTS site: wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgiFor education, information, guidance and support there is the web site: wingsfortruth.info/For parental information and education for CSA as well as other abuses, readers can check this page: wingsfortruth.info/resources/parents/For news such as the current letter sent out to elders and overseers from a Texas couple: wingsfortruth.info/category/news/
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 5:19:17 GMT -5
Clearday said it well: Definitely, we are all grateful for Edgar's interest in WINGS which has raised the profile of WINGS and as a result, CSA. It's all good..... regardless of Edgar's occasionally-odd pronouncements regarding WINGS. Fixit and clearday Why all the wild and frantic complaints and degrading comments of my person if they serve your interests so well? -- But if it makes you so happy -- I can post it again.Interesting how the so 2x2 typical ban on 'critisizing the workers' has so clearly become Wings policy of recent times --- Even CSA victims are discouraged from expressing feelings that might be interpreted as 2x2 negative. This kind of censorship may sound reasonable to 2x2 supporters -- but it very clearly breaks even the most fundimental principles in dealing with the trauma and psycological destruction of CSA. "Don't coach the expression and feelings of victims!!" The influence of the 2x2 supporter falang on Wings has made itself quite evident the last 6 months -- and in my opinion,very very effectively 'wing clipped' any positive influence the site may have on the issue. Don't forget that however the issue is twisted and turned and painted pink, it IS the work that IS the major problem in implimenting safety and solution. -- it is NOT the victims (with their critical spirit) that are at blame and it is definately NOT the victims who should bare any responsibility for marketing 2x2ism as something good. For most CSA victims 2x2ism has clearly and uncontestably betrayed them -- now Wings with its own set of internal interests and self-admiration, is unfortunately well on its way to do the same.
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Post by holdmyhand on Aug 22, 2013 5:38:44 GMT -5
Here are some dictionary definitions of the word 'influence', is it really what WINGS wants from workers?
*the effect that a person or thing has on someone's decisions, opinions, or behaviour or on the way something happens
*the power to shape policy or ensure favourable treatment from someone, especially through status, contacts, or wealth:
*the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others: He used family influence to get the contract.
*the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others: Her mother's influence made her stay.
*Synonyms . sway, rule. See authority. impress, bias, direct, control. incite, rouse, arouse, instigate, induce, persuade.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 7:03:20 GMT -5
Regarding influence It is no secret that 2x2s prime interest is and always has been to protect the image of their 'perfect way' -- and to imply the moral superiority of their organizational construction over every other group in the world.
As has been proven by the 2x2 influence recently applied even on Wings -- supressing the negative is a prime concern. The thought has been clearly expressed that the negativity of victims accounts of their feeling MUST reside somewhere else than on the Wings domain, if attracting 2x2 interest is to be expected. According to an earlier post this was a non-negotiable demand by one of the prime 2x2 spokesmen 'Clearday'.
This is understandable from the well understood 2x2 perspective -- but produces an impossible situation for any serious attempt to deal with the CSA issue within the group.
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Post by Persona non grata on Aug 22, 2013 7:26:08 GMT -5
Regarding influence It is no secret that 2x2s prime interest is and always has been to protect the image of their 'perfect way' -- and to imply the moral superiority of their organizational construction over every other group in the world. As has been proven by the 2x2 influence recently applied even on Wings -- supressing the negative is a prime concern. The thought has been clearly expressed that the negativity of victims accounts of their feeling MUST reside somewhere else than on the Wings domain, if attracting 2x2 interest is to be expected. According to an earlier post this was a non-negotiable demand by one of the prime 2x2 spokesmen 'Clearday'. This is understandable from the well understood 2x2 perspective -- but produces an impossible situation for any serious attempt to deal with the CSA issue within the group. WOW, Clearday is "one of the prime 2x2 spokesmen!"Edgar, do you actually read Clearday's posts? I think it's fantastic that one of the movements 'prime spokesman' has such a remarkable capacity for self-criticism.
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Post by Persona non grata on Aug 22, 2013 7:36:16 GMT -5
Here are some dictionary definitions of the word 'influence', is it really what WINGS wants from workers? *the effect that a person or thing has on someone's decisions, opinions, or behaviour or on the way something happens *the power to shape policy or ensure favourable treatment from someone, especially through status, contacts, or wealth: *the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others: He used family influence to get the contract. *the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others: Her mother's influence made her stay. *Synonyms . sway, rule. See authority. impress, bias, direct, control. incite, rouse, arouse, instigate, induce, persuade. What about this worker, do you object to her influence? What about this worker, do you object to his influence?
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Post by Persona non grata on Aug 22, 2013 7:47:03 GMT -5
---- But according to a post I recieved a while back from the adminstrator, Wings lacks the capacity for support -- and I seriously question how they are going to reach victims to inform with the present policy of excluding the right for victims to express their honest feelings if they should include 2x2 negativity. I never sent you any such message Edgar, and I am the administrator of WINGS. This warrants further investigation. Edgar has made his aversion to lying very clear, so I'm sure he wouldn't fudge the truth here. That leaves you in the witness stand, Scott; Explain yourself, lest you be taken for lying like a lounge-room lizard!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 7:58:24 GMT -5
Regarding influence It is no secret that 2x2s prime interest is and always has been to protect the image of their 'perfect way' -- and to imply the moral superiority of their organizational construction over every other group in the world. As has been proven by the 2x2 influence recently applied even on Wings -- supressing the negative is a prime concern. The thought has been clearly expressed that the negativity of victims accounts of their feeling MUST reside somewhere else than on the Wings domain, if attracting 2x2 interest is to be expected. According to an earlier post this was a non-negotiable demand by one of the prime 2x2 spokesmen 'Clearday'. This is understandable from the well understood 2x2 perspective -- but produces an impossible situation for any serious attempt to deal with the CSA issue within the group. WOW, Clearday is "one of the prime 2x2 spokesmen!"Edgar, do you actually read Clearday's posts? I think it's fantastic that one of the movements 'prime spokesman' has such a remarkable capacity for self-criticism. Yes I read Cleardays posts -- I am personally acquainted with him .. have known him for years from my time in the work near his home. I respect him more than most of his fellow 2x2 supporters -- but am also well aware of the deep seated prejudice that the 2x2 propaganda machine is capable of infecting people with -- and no one on the inside is exempted!! I believe it was Cherie that suggested his role in the recent Wings policy swing to protect 2x2isms dignity in this way .
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Post by Persona non grata on Aug 22, 2013 8:09:48 GMT -5
As far as I'm aware, WINGS is not "worker run" (none of the administration are workers), and checks and balance are in place in the form of Scott Ross and other board members, who have no self-serving agendas. Considering this, I really don't understand the objection to WINGS being influenced by workers (or anyone else). Take this sister worker for example, do you object to her influence? How about this brother worker for example, do you object to his influence? WINGS ability to work with the workers is not just about being influenced by them, it's just as much about WINGS being able to influence the workers. Realistically, it is the workers who have the greatest power to influence change within the ministry regarding the handling of CSA cases. Realistically, it is also the workers who have the greatest power to encourage education and open discussion about CSA amoungst the friends. On the other hand, there are other parties with self-serving agendas, who are also seeking to influence WINGS. Thankfully, as mentioned earlier, checks and balances are in place. Edgar's clear and incontestable objective is to discredit the ministry. Hence, any improvement by the ministry for the better of CSA victims would only make it more difficult for Edgar. While I'm sure that Edgar doesn't wish for anyone to be a victim of CSA, the unfortunate reality is that his objective to attack the ministry makes him opposed to any positive change within it and is, therefore not in the best interests of victims. Let's see beyond the politics here and support what is in the best interests of the victims, past, present, and potential.
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Post by Persona non grata on Aug 22, 2013 8:20:02 GMT -5
WOW, Clearday is "one of the prime 2x2 spokesmen!"Edgar, do you actually read Clearday's posts? I think it's fantastic that one of the movements 'prime spokesman' has such a remarkable capacity for self-criticism. Yes I read Cleardays posts -- I am personally acquainted with him .. have known him for years from my time in the work near his home. I respect him more than most of his fellow 2x2 supporters -- but am also well aware of the deep seated prejudice that the 2x2 propaganda machine is capable of infecting people with -- and no one on the inside is exempted!! I believe it was Cherie that suggested his role in the recent Wings policy swing to protect 2x2isms dignity in this way . Well if you actually read through Clearday's posts, then you couldn't accuse him of "suppressing the negative." He certainly doesn't shy away from criticising the movement when it is warranted and he'd have to be ranked as one of the most objective posters on the board.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 8:20:37 GMT -5
Realistically, it is the workers who have the greatest power to influence change within the ministry regarding the handling of CSA cases. Realistically, it is also the workers who have the greatest power to encourage education and open discussion about CSA amoungst the friends. Also -- quite realistic and undeniable is the fact that it is workers that are directly responsible for most of the CSA situations within the group that victims have experienced -- It is also workers that have been responsible for hidding and protecting perpetrators from taking responsibility for their crimes. Also it is the responsible workers of today that still refuse to openly acknowledge the seriousness of the issues and virtues and purpose of the different aspects of Wings policy as it has been presented in the past. Don't fool yourself -- 2x2 policy and the work clearly has been and still IS the major problem.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 8:26:12 GMT -5
WOW, Clearday is "one of the prime 2x2 spokesmen!"Edgar, do you actually read Clearday's posts? I think it's fantastic that one of the movements 'prime spokesman' has such a remarkable capacity for self-criticism. Yes I read Cleardays posts -- I am personally acquainted with him .. have known him for years from my time in the work near his home. I respect him more than most of his fellow 2x2 supporters -- but am also well aware of the deep seated prejudice that the 2x2 propaganda machine is capable of infecting people with -- and no one on the inside is exempted!! I believe it was Cherie that suggested his role in the recent Wings policy swing to protect 2x2isms dignity in this way . Whether it was Cherie or you making this suggestion, it is flat-out wrong. My position on this issue has never changed: that WINGS should be victim-centric and 2x2-neutral. No matter how hard you (and Cherie?) try, you cannot alter this truth.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 8:39:22 GMT -5
Clearday -- Why was the move of victims accounts to another domain so important to you?? and their negative content regarded so unacceptable?
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 22, 2013 10:53:31 GMT -5
---- But according to a post I recieved a while back from the adminstrator, Wings lacks the capacity for support -- and I seriously question how they are going to reach victims to inform with the present policy of excluding the right for victims to express their honest feelings if they should include 2x2 negativity. I never sent you any such message Edgar, and I am the administrator of WINGS. This warrants further investigation. Edgar has made his aversion to lying very clear, so I'm sure he wouldn't fudge the truth here. That leaves you in the witness stand, Scott; Explain yourself, lest you be taken for lying like a lounge-room lizard! I am waiting for Edgar to explain himself in regard to any correspondence I sent him stating that WINGS lacks the capacity for support.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 22, 2013 11:02:48 GMT -5
Interesting how the so 2x2 typical ban on 'critisizing the workers' has so clearly become Wings policy of recent times --- Even CSA victims are discouraged from expressing feelings that might be interpreted as 2x2 negative. This kind of censorship may sound reasonable to 2x2 supporters -- but it very clearly breaks even the most fundimental principles in dealing with the trauma and psycological destruction of CSA. "Don't coach the expression and feelings of victims!!" The influence of the 2x2 supporter falang on Wings has made itself quite evident the last 6 months -- and in my opinion,very very effectively 'wing clipped' any positive influence the site may have on the issue. Don't forget that however the issue is twisted and turned and painted pink, it IS the work that IS the major problem in implimenting safety and solution. -- it is NOT the victims (with their critical spirit) that are at blame and it is definately NOT the victims who should bare any responsibility for marketing 2x2ism as something good. For most CSA victims 2x2ism has clearly and uncontestably betrayed them -- now Wings with its own set of internal interests and self-admiration, is unfortunately well on its way to do the same. You still haven't produced ANYTHING showing that we are discouraging victims from expressing their feelings in any way. It is just the opposite. We encourage them to register on the BTS where they are free to post as they wish to. Please show ANY place where we have censored ANY victim in ANY way. Can you show ANY place where WINGS is trying to market "2x2ism as something good?" You have become our greatest advocate for WINGS gaining credibility Edgar. Your agenda of hatred for all things regarding the fellowship is widely known, and I encourage you to keep on keeping on with your agenda against WINGS, especially since you have been unable to point to anything that backs up what you are spouting off about. Keep it up! Having someone who hates the fellowship such as you do gives us much more credibility within the fellowship, and also with those exes who do not hate the fellowship. Thanks!
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Post by snow on Aug 22, 2013 11:06:01 GMT -5
Here are some dictionary definitions of the word 'influence', is it really what WINGS wants from workers? *the effect that a person or thing has on someone's decisions, opinions, or behaviour or on the way something happens *the power to shape policy or ensure favourable treatment from someone, especially through status, contacts, or wealth: *the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others: He used family influence to get the contract. *the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others: Her mother's influence made her stay. *Synonyms . sway, rule. See authority. impress, bias, direct, control. incite, rouse, arouse, instigate, induce, persuade. What about this worker, do you object to her influence? What about this worker, do you object to his influence? Thanks for posting that personanongrata
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Post by What Hat on Aug 22, 2013 11:18:23 GMT -5
Clearday -- Why was the move of victims accounts to another domain so important to you?? and their negative content regarded so unacceptable? I'm not sure why that would be an issue. But how do you feel about the disclaimer at the top of the 'Survivor Stories' page? Is it a reasonable position to take? WINGS administrators take no responsibility for the accuracy of these statements. The opinions expressed and testimonies received by WINGS are published in good faith of truth and accuracy. These statements, although published on this website, do not reflect the administrators views or opinions. Some of the people mentioned may have never been charged or found guilty of criminal offences.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 22, 2013 11:20:05 GMT -5
Here are some dictionary definitions of the word 'influence', is it really what WINGS wants from workers? *the effect that a person or thing has on someone's decisions, opinions, or behaviour or on the way something happens *the power to shape policy or ensure favourable treatment from someone, especially through status, contacts, or wealth: *the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others: He used family influence to get the contract. *the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others: Her mother's influence made her stay. *Synonyms . sway, rule. See authority. impress, bias, direct, control. incite, rouse, arouse, instigate, induce, persuade. In some respects, yes, we want that kind of influence. WINGS has the ability to reach around the world to everyone. We have a website that people can go to for answers and information..... workers don't. *the effect that a person or thing has on someone's decisions, opinions, or behaviour or on the way something happens
Workers send us information that we utilize to pass on information for others. There are several letters from overseers posted on WINGS informing members of decisions and actions that they have taken. wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/*the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others: He used family influence to get the contract.
Again, when you read the letters from overseers we have posted on WINGS, you will see that they have informed the members of the need to report alleged abuse to the proper authorities, so that would fit here concerning behaviors/opinions/etc of the professing folks that read on WINGS. After all, WINGS, the BTS and the TMB are where many people turn to for information regarding issues within the fellowship that they do not here in their local area. *the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others: Her mother's influence made her stay.
And if a worker contacts us requesting help, or provides us with information they wish to have made public, then yes... that could be seen as influencing what we might do. (We get correspondence from workers who are not in a 'position of power', but have concerns they wish to share)
So..... while the workers may not influence us in regard to how we manage or run WINGS, they ARE influencing the members of the fellowship who read on WINGS and look to it as a trusted source of information. After all, we are posting and sharing information from the 'top dogs', 'the big kahunas', the 'spiritual advisors' or whatever else you want to label the overseers as. It is only fitting that we utilize the influence of the overseers to pass on information to the members of the fellowship. Do you think this is a bad thing?
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Post by What Hat on Aug 22, 2013 11:26:16 GMT -5
Interesting how the so 2x2 typical ban on 'critisizing the workers' has so clearly become Wings policy of recent times --- Even CSA victims are discouraged from expressing feelings that might be interpreted as 2x2 negative. This kind of censorship may sound reasonable to 2x2 supporters -- but it very clearly breaks even the most fundimental principles in dealing with the trauma and psycological destruction of CSA. "Don't coach the expression and feelings of victims!!" This is a side issue, but I wonder if this is perhaps bad advice as far as victims' stories and experiences are concerned. It's one thing to express anger during that stage of recovery while speaking to empathetic professionals or in the context of a support group. However, in the context of an open letter, such advice could be damaging in terms of family and friends' relationships. I believe the WINGS policy is to publish every letter it has received without editorial restriction but to indicate with a disclaimer that those letters do not reflect the editorial position of WINGS. (Tell me if I'm wrong, Scott Ross.) But would it be advisable for a victim to work with an editor, one whose world view is sympatico with the victim, just to provide a counterpoint and analysis of the implications of what is being said, not to mention spelling, grammar and so on. I think I am correct in thinking that WINGS/ BTS would not want to be involved in providing any editorial advice on victims' letters as the perception of their neutrality might be harmed, and as is obvious from this thread: it's a sensitive issue. But how do you ensure the victim does not harm themselves based on writing something they may regret later.
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Post by Persona non grata on Aug 22, 2013 11:34:38 GMT -5
Realistically, it is the workers who have the greatest power to influence change within the ministry regarding the handling of CSA cases. Realistically, it is also the workers who have the greatest power to encourage education and open discussion about CSA amoungst the friends. Also -- quite realistic and undeniable is the fact that it is workers that are directly responsible for most of the CSA situations within the group that victims have experienced -- It is also workers that have been responsible for hidding and protecting perpetrators from taking responsibility for their crimes. Also it is the responsible workers of today that still refuse to openly acknowledge the seriousness of the issues and virtues and purpose of the different aspects of Wings policy as it has been presented in the past. Don't fool yourself -- 2x2 policy and the work clearly has been and still IS the major problem. Edgar, here's your argument applied in another setting: Because most CSA offences in school environments are committed by teachers, then no teachers should be allowed to contribute towards a curriculum to minimise the risk of CSA in schools.Your argument, my friend, is illogical.
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Post by What Hat on Aug 22, 2013 11:35:17 GMT -5
Here are some dictionary definitions of the word 'influence', is it really what WINGS wants from workers? *the effect that a person or thing has on someone's decisions, opinions, or behaviour or on the way something happens *the power to shape policy or ensure favourable treatment from someone, especially through status, contacts, or wealth: *the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others: He used family influence to get the contract. *the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others: Her mother's influence made her stay. *Synonyms . sway, rule. See authority. impress, bias, direct, control. incite, rouse, arouse, instigate, induce, persuade. Wouldn't it be great if the worker's read the proposed CSA guidelines and came back and said, we would like to adopt these, but with some changes ... I'm not holding my breath that that is going to happen, but that's exactly the kind of worker influence WINGS would want. By analogy, the Christian Reformed Church denomination provides overall guidelines and staff resources to individual congregations in order to implement 'safe church' policies. But they expect each local congregation to draft guidelines that work for them, and they also have a local facillitator on abuse issues within each congregation. They expect each congregation to "own" the process and the policies. WINGS would want the friends and workers' movement to exhibit the same kind of influence over the issue. In fact, they have to.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 22, 2013 13:13:35 GMT -5
By analogy, the Christian Reformed Church denomination provides overall guidelines and staff resources to individual congregations in order to implement 'safe church' policies. But they expect each local congregation to draft guidelines that work for them, and they also have a local facillitator on abuse issues within each congregation. They expect each congregation to "own" the process and the policies.
WINGS would want the friends and workers' movement to exhibit the same kind of influence over the issue. In fact, they have to.
I have a feeling that Edgar would fully support this type of approach. The foregoing is the ideal situation. However, I'm sure Edgar's comments are based on reality?
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 22, 2013 13:14:55 GMT -5
Here are some dictionary definitions of the word 'influence', is it really what WINGS wants from workers? *the effect that a person or thing has on someone's decisions, opinions, or behaviour or on the way something happens *the power to shape policy or ensure favourable treatment from someone, especially through status, contacts, or wealth: *the capacity or power of persons or things to be a compelling force on or produce effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of others: He used family influence to get the contract. *the action or process of producing effects on the actions, behavior, opinions, etc., of another or others: Her mother's influence made her stay. *Synonyms . sway, rule. See authority. impress, bias, direct, control. incite, rouse, arouse, instigate, induce, persuade. Wouldn't it be great if the worker's read the proposed CSA guidelines and came back and said, we would like to adopt these, but with some changes ... I'm not holding my breath that that is going to happen, but that's exactly the kind of worker influence WINGS would want. By analogy, the Christian Reformed Church denomination provides overall guidelines and staff resources to individual congregations in order to implement 'safe church' policies. But they expect each local congregation to draft guidelines that work for them, and they also have a local facillitator on abuse issues within each congregation. They expect each congregation to "own" the process and the policies. WINGS would want the friends and workers' movement to exhibit the same kind of influence over the issue. In fact, they have to. Wouldn't it be great if the worker's read the proposed CSA guidelines and came back and said, we would like to adopt these, but with some changes ... I'm not holding my breath that that is going to happen, but that's exactly the kind of worker influence WINGS would want.
Yep. The Guidelines can be changed to meet the needs of any area, by any overseer. Some may wish to add to them in order to follow the law in the area they are in, and others may wish to alter them to better fit the needs where they are at. The Guidelines are not 'owned' by anyone, and can be altered as needed. It would be great if there were a standard set that were utilized everywhere, and then additions made as needed rather than deletions. That way, friends around the world would know that the workers in their area were following a specific set of Guidelines, no matter where they might be in regard to traveling. Currently, the only 'officially adopted' set of guidelines I have read are for the states of California, Nevada, Arizona and the Pacific Islands. These were adopted after the issue surrounding Ruben Mata. They are seriously lacking in what they say, and in many respects are a guideline on how to circumvent/disregard the law. We are considering posting them with the accompanying letters sent out by Dale Schultz for all to read. I have been waiting to see if Dale has modified these guidelines in any way since they were issued in 2006 to all the workers under his control. So far, I haven't received any word that he has changed them to be in compliance with the law in regard to mandated reporters, so they will probably be posted as is. These letters and guidelines created and dispersed by Dale were recently submitted to the WINGS group by an ex member of the fellowship, who has had them for quite some time, and who feels that it would be beneficial to have them posted for all to read. They include the letter sent out concerning Ruben Mata that Dale sent to all the workers to share at their discretion. Here is what those letters include: (address removed)Elk Grove CA 95624-1749July 6, 2006Dear Staff,Included in this envelope, you will find the letter intended for the use of our staff concerning Ruben Mata and also the guidelines document which we hope can be of some assistance when future reports involving the molestation of minors are brought to us. A number of you have contributed to the content and wording of both the letter and the guidelines document and I want to thank each of you who have helped in the developing of both of these papers to their present form.You will find enclosed one letter concerning Ruben for each field. The workers in the field will use the letter according to their own discretion. The letter can be shown to any of our friends who are questioning or are troubled concerning events which have involved Ruben or anything pertaining to the handling of his case in the past or present. The friends should read the letter in the presence of the workers in the field. We would rather that the letter not be left with friends over any period of time. It is hard to say who all might read the letter if that was done. If it is read in the presence of the workers, there can be further discussion and further questions can be asked. There may be rare cases in which it may be useful to show the letter to someone who is not professing - possibly to a victim. It may be well to check with us before using it in this way. Of course, the guidelines just mentioned which apply to showing the letter to our friends would also apply if it was shown to someone who is not professing. We will ask you not to make any copies of this letter. To have one letter available in each field is certainly adequate. If we are not particularly careful with letters such as this, they can end of on an internet site for all the world to read. Also, to show this letter to people who do not need to see it may arouse concerns that they had not previously entertained. The purpose of the letter is to help those who have concerns, not to advertise a kingdom problem to those who either do not know about it or are not having a problem with itThere is a copy of the "guidelines" for each worker. It will be useful for all of you to have a copy for reference now and in the future. Over time, there may be changes to the suggestions that are made in this document. That is because legislation does change from time to time and also the available agencies to which reports can be made and the resources available to help victims and violators may also alter over time. It is good to remember that the legal framework in these guidelines is in the context of California law and that there may be variations to what is outlined here in other states and countries.We have made a significant effort to ensure that the information provided both in the letter and the guidelines document is accurate and current. We hope that you will find both useful.Yours in HimDale Shultz (address removed)Elk Grove CA 95624-1749June 29, 2006To Whom It May Concern:Based on the information that we now have, we know that Ruben Mata sexually molested young boys during a period of at least 20 years prior to 2000. Ruben was in the work during this time. We have been informed of a half dozen cases for which Ruben is responsible and we wouldn't know how many other cases there might be of which we have no knowledge. He inflicted this damage without his companions being aware of what was happening. One case came to the attention of a brother worker through a third party as early as 1996. This worker was inexperienced in handling this kind of problem and didn't fully realize its seriousness and magnitude. No follow up action took place. Word of another case was conveyed to sister workers but, again, they didn't follow through with any definite action that would have brought the problem out into the open. A third case carne to the attention of another sister worker, apparently in November or December of 1999. During preps, in April of 2000, this sister told a brother worker about the report that had come to her. This brother passed the information on to Dick Middleton and Ruben was faced up with his problem at convention time. Ruben voluntarily relinquished his place in the ministry at Buttonwillow convention in May of 2000.In June of 2000, Steve Peirson and Ray Bullick accompanied Ruben to the District Attorney's Office in Tulare County where Ruben admitted to the offences that had come to light up until that time. The Assistant District Attorney interviewed Ruben. Dick Middleton asked Ray Bullick to help Ruben find professional help for his problem. A little start was made with counseling in June of 2000, but Ruben withdrew from any treatment program after a few months. Ruben was restricted initially to attending only designated meetings and was asked not to attend any meetings of our people sometime in 2002. Ruben was given to understand that he would need to further pursue a treatment program in order to facilitate any consideration of him attending meetings of our people in the future.Another case surfaced within the past few months (this abuse occurred in 1999) which resulted in Ruben's behavior again being reported to the authorities. This time, the authorities chose to investigate further and Ruben was arrested on Thursday, May 18. He is being held without bail. At a hearing in mid-June, an attorney was appointed to handle Ruben's defense. We understand that his "guilty" or "not guilty" plea will be submitted at the next hearing which may take place sometime in July. Following this, the date of the actual trial will be set.We feel very sorry that one of our fellow servants has caused so much harm to so many with its ensuing suffering, confusion and pain. This type of inappropriate behavior represents a very serious betrayal of trust and we feel keenly for the victims and their families who have experienced this betrayal first hand. We are also sorry that the ministry's response to the problem was not as quick, definite and adequate as it should have been - especially with respect to what happened and didn't happen prior to May of 2000. This was not due to deliberate irresponsibility on anyone's part but can be attributed largely to the fact that those involved did not comprehend the seriousness and magnitude of what was taking place at the time and were inexperienced and uninformed regarding procedure. Nevertheless, we do wish to express our regret and offer our apology that such incidents ever happened and that the ministry's response was not as quick, definite and adequate as we know it should have been as we look back over the situation now.We have discussed this issue in our staff meeting at Mountain Ranch on Monday, May 22. We also discussed the appropriate course of action if any case involving the sexual molestation of a minor (17 years of age or younger) comes to the attention of a worker in the future.A copy of this letter will be in the hands of each pair of active workers on the California workers list. It is to be used by the workers in their fields at their own discretion but primarily to help any who may have questions or are disturbed regarding this matter. We don't want any further copies of this letter made and we want the initial copies to remain in the hands of the workers in their fields.Yours Respectfully,[signed Dale Schulz]___________________________Dale Schulz and the California staffThis are 51 workers listed who received those guidelines. It would be interesting to know just how many people were actually allowed to read these letters. Hopefully Edgar won't think that I am promoting the good side of 2x2ism by posting this...... LOL!!!
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Post by What Hat on Aug 22, 2013 15:03:04 GMT -5
By analogy, the Christian Reformed Church denomination provides overall guidelines and staff resources to individual congregations in order to implement 'safe church' policies. But they expect each local congregation to draft guidelines that work for them, and they also have a local facillitator on abuse issues within each congregation. They expect each congregation to "own" the process and the policies.
WINGS would want the friends and workers' movement to exhibit the same kind of influence over the issue. In fact, they have to.I have a feeling that Edgar would fully support this type of approach. The foregoing is the ideal situation. However, I'm sure Edgar's comments are based on reality? We can't live with the present day reality, and neither can the friends or the workers.
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