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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 10:21:02 GMT -5
Wings recent policy change to bow to 2x2 pressure and clearly and obviously take steps to distance themselves from the honest feelings and situation of victims, makes the site a complete farse as far as dealing with the issue in any kind of serious or proffessional way.
The only issue left on the table is prevention .. which in itself is obviously a relavent issue -- But the clear contempt and disregard Wings has shown for any '2x2 negative feelings by victims -- added to the fact that organizational 2x2ism still refuses to even acknowledge the site, makes it a very legitimate question "What 'preventative' function does it fill outside self-admiration?"
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Post by kencoolidge on Aug 20, 2013 11:41:06 GMT -5
Wings recent policy change to bow to 2x2 pressure and clearly and obviously take steps to distance themselves from the honest feelings and situation of victims, makes the site a complete farse as far as dealing with the issue in any kind of serious or proffessional way. The only issue left on the table is prevention .. which in itself is obviously a relavent issue -- But the clear contempt and disregard Wings has shown for any '2x2 negative feelings by victims -- added to the fact that organizational 2x2ism still refuses to even acknowledge the site, makes it a very legitimate question "What 'preventative' function does it fill outside self-admiration?" Edgar You are not suggesting that the fox doesn't have the interest of the chicken coop? ken
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 12:23:17 GMT -5
Wings recent policy change to bow to 2x2 pressure and clearly and obviously take steps to distance themselves from the honest feelings and situation of victims, makes the site a complete farse as far as dealing with the issue in any kind of serious or proffessional way. The only issue left on the table is prevention .. which in itself is obviously a relavent issue -- But the clear contempt and disregard Wings has shown for any '2x2 negative feelings by victims -- added to the fact that organizational 2x2ism still refuses to even acknowledge the site, makes it a very legitimate question "What 'preventative' function does it fill outside self-admiration?" Edgar You are not suggesting that the fox doesn't have the interest of the chicken coop? ken No Ken, I am suggesting that painting a roosters comb on the fox and teaching him to crow, doesn't make him less dangerous in the hens house.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 20, 2013 13:01:58 GMT -5
Wings recent policy change to bow to 2x2 pressure and clearly and obviously take steps to distance themselves from the honest feelings and situation of victims, makes the site a complete farse as far as dealing with the issue in any kind of serious or proffessional way. The only issue left on the table is prevention .. which in itself is obviously a relavent issue -- But the clear contempt and disregard Wings has shown for any '2x2 negative feelings by victims -- added to the fact that organizational 2x2ism still refuses to even acknowledge the site, makes it a very legitimate question "What 'preventative' function does it fill outside self-admiration?" We haven't bowed to any pressure. Neither from those within the fellowship, or those from outside the fellowship. We simply listen to all who wish to make their opinions known, and ignore those who have an obvious agenda. There actually has not been any policy change really. The stories are still there, and we have added the ability for people to make comments on WINGS. The recent letter sent out to overseers and others is an example of this. The letter presents the issue of both CSA and sexual immorality within the church. Certainly not something that many overseers would want to have posted or widely shared. It has received positive feedback from some workers, and also has been forwarded on to others who have gotten it. It is still being forwarded on. It has also been posted elsewhere on the internet to be read. It doesn't matter how many times you try to claim that WINGS shows contempt for victims/survivors of abuse, nor matter how many times you claim that we have bowed to pressure, it simply isn't true. We have gotten more pressure from not allowing links to other sites about the fellowship than we have ever gotten from workers or professing people. WINGS also does include abuse survivors, so that is one other false representation about WINGS. And you are also wrong that 2x2ism still refuses to even acknowledge the site. That is pretty clear by the fact that we have been in contact with overseers about issues of CSA, the fact that WINGS has been discussed in worker meetings, the fact that workers have referred abuse survivors to WINGS, that we have gotten letters of support from workers, that WINGS has been mentioned in training concerning CSA issues, that WINGS has been listed in the same newspaper article in which Barry Barkley is quoted, that WINGS provided the information to overseers concerning MinsitrySafe training that Barry has been quoted as saying all the workers are taking that training..... and the list goes on. Too bad that there are those who are so against the fellowship that they feel the need to attack anything and everything that can be seen as a change for the better within the fellowship. The agenda of such individuals is quite clear here on the TMB. No matter what is done or said, it can be twisted to appear as if it is bad, wrong or has a hidden agenda. Pretty sad, and it does nothing for the respectability or credibility of said individuals.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 13:27:10 GMT -5
I have understood that you and some of the others on the Wings board feel that the policy swing to distance your site from anti-2x2 feelings expressed in CSA victims stories -- and to concentrate on more postive aspects of 2x2ism, by attracting more 2x2 supporters is going to further the cause against CSA within 2x2ism.
The sentiments expressed in the thread on this subject recently were extremely disappointing to me -- and brought make mulitple ugly memories of all the typical 2x2 methods of dealing with any expressions of concern about anything negative within the group.
I feel strongly about this -- and whether or not you chose to turn this issue into an issue of my personal credibility or petty hidden agendas -- it is my honest opinion --- and I feel I have a right/responsibility to express it. The attitudes expressed in this policy swing cause far more problems than they solve!! CSA is NOT an issue to be played and experimented with!!!
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 20, 2013 14:00:53 GMT -5
I have understood that you and some of the others on the Wings board feel that the policy swing to distance your site from anti-2x2 feelings expressed in CSA victims stories -- and to concentrate on more postive aspects of 2x2ism, by attracting more 2x2 supporters is going to further the cause against CSA within 2x2ism. The sentiments expressed in the thread on this subject recently were extremely disappointing to me -- and brought make mulitple ugly memories of all the typical 2x2 methods of dealing with any expressions of concern about anything negative within the group. I feel strongly about this -- and whether or not you chose to turn this issue into an issue of my personal credibility or petty hidden agendas -- it is my honest opinion --- and I feel I have a right/responsibility to express it. The attitudes expressed in this policy swing cause far more problems than they solve!! CSA is NOT an issue to be played and experimented with!!! I believe you are stating your honest opinion. Your opinion just doesn't have any credibility with me is all. And that is my opinion. I also feel strongly about this. Can you point out specifically where WINGS is concentrating on more postive aspects of 2x2ism? As far as I know, we still concentrate on CSA issues. We did recently add articles on WINGS concerning other abuse issues other than CSA, but continue to do as always in regard to our stated purpose. Obviously the letter we posted from a professing couple isn't focusing on more postive aspects of 2x2ism, wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/letters-from-friends-and-workers/usa-friends-to-workers-and-elders/ nor is our submission to the Victorian parliamentary inquiry focusing on more postive aspects of 2x2ism www.parliament.vic.gov.au/images/stories/committees/fcdc/inquiries/57th/Child_Abuse_Inquiry/Submissions/WINGS.pdf.There is also an Australian Royal Commission of Inquiry Into Child Sexual Abuse, and we will be actively involved in submissions for that Inquiry: The decision by the Federal Government to hold a Royal Commission into CSA by religious organisations is to be welcomed and is a positive step to bring these organisations to account. It can also be an opportunity for victims to be heard and their stories taken seriously. For this Commission to be successful in cleansing all churches of the scourge of CSA it needs victims and those who support them to make submissions. This Royal Commission has been long overdue and WINGS encourages all those who have been affected by CSA within the F&W church to make a submission. WINGS will be willing to guide and help people to make a submission and encourages all those who feel moved to do so to PM any of the WINGS staff for assistance. Lets all work together to use this Royal Commission to cleanse the church and move forward with a renewed focus to represent Christ on the earth in the way in which is befitting to the holy character of our God. wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lounge&action=display&thread=218I hardly think that this can be seen as focusing on more postive aspects of 2x2ism.I would appreciate it if you would provide examples of where we are concentrating on ANY positive aspects of the fellowship.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2013 14:22:48 GMT -5
" No matter what is done or said, it can be twisted to appear as if it is bad, wrong or has a hidden agenda. Pretty sad, and it does nothing for the respectability or credibility of said individuals. Yes Scott --- My history in 2x2ism, also reminds me that no matter what is said or done within 2x2ism -- it will be painted as for the greater good -- Even if we don't understand it, we must leave it in Gods hands (and the workers control) and show the right (optimistic and positive) spirit, it will will turn out right in time!!! Woe betide the critical! Woe betide negative insinuation! Credibility and respectability (and praise) of leadership must be paramount!!! -- Sorry, I don't subscribe to this mindset any more.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 20, 2013 14:34:46 GMT -5
" No matter what is done or said, it can be twisted to appear as if it is bad, wrong or has a hidden agenda. Pretty sad, and it does nothing for the respectability or credibility of said individuals. Yes Scott --- My history in 2x2ism, also reminds me that no matter what is said or done within 2x2ism -- it will be painted as for the greater good -- Even if we don't understand it, we must leave it in Gods hands (and the workers control) and show the right (optimistic and positive) spirit, it will will turn out right in time!!! Woe betide the critical! Woe betide negative insinuation! Credibility and respectability (and praise) of leadership must be paramount!!! -- Sorry, I don't subscribe to this mindset any more. That simply explains to us all that you definitely have an agenda against anything concerning the church, but doesn't answer the question I asked of you: I would appreciate it if you would provide examples of where we are concentrating on ANY positive aspects of the fellowship.
In regard to: Even if we don't understand it, we must leave it in Gods hands (and the workers control) and show the right (optimistic and positive) spirit, it will will turn out right in time!!! , that might be how some people see things, but certainly not how WINGS sees things. I believe it is pretty well established that as a group, we believe that God works through individuals to carry out His plan, and we take action whenever it is appropriate to do so.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2013 1:42:47 GMT -5
Scott I supported the Wings initiative until earlier this spring the stories of victims vanished completely for a while -- this issue was first explained as consideration to 2x2 complaints about the 2x2 negative aspects of the content of these accounts. The motives of victims writings was put up for questioning, and for many of them, demoted to the status of more relevant to anti-2x2 propaganda than the CSA, and thus unsuitable for a site that was most interested in attracting 2x2 visitors.
After a certain amount of attention from this board, many of these stories did re-appear under another domain with a simple link to Wings -- but by then the pro-2x2 influence on the Wings was quite well established --
If Wings has been redesigned to appeal to the 2x2 audience, I question how much of a support it can possibly be to known victims -- or to (equally important) the hundreds of victims still out there living alone with their secret horrors -- desperatly needing find acknowledgement and understanding.
Wings seems to have effectively turned their back, to all victims except the '2x2 positive'. (and they are few and far between)
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 21, 2013 2:07:17 GMT -5
Scott I supported the Wings initiative until earlier this spring the stories of victims vanished completely for a while -- this issue was first explained as consideration to 2x2 complaints about the 2x2 negative aspects of the content of these accounts. The motives of victims writings was put up for questioning, and for many of them, demoted to the status of more relevant to anti-2x2 propaganda than the CSA, and thus unsuitable for a site that was most interested in attracting 2x2 visitors. After a certain amount of attention from this board, many of these stories did re-appear under another domain with a simple link to Wings -- but by then the pro-2x2 influence on the Wings was quite well established -- If Wings has been redesigned to appeal to the 2x2 audience, I question how much of a support it can possibly be to known victims -- or to (equally important) the hundreds of victims still out there living alone with their secret horrors -- desperatly needing find acknowledgement and understanding. Wings seems to have effectively turned their back, to all victims except the '2x2 positive'. (and they are few and far between) Wings seems to have effectively turned their back, to all victims except the '2x2 positive'. (and they are few and far between)
Riiight..... and that is why we make submissions to government inquiries, offer to help abuse survivors make submissions to authorities, talk with investigators, talk with reporters, keep a database on alleged offenders. promote awareness on abuse issues, post letters from friends about corruption in the church, promote the use of worker guidelines etc.......... Hardly actions of those a group trying to focus on the positive side of the fellowship. But you are certainly welcome to your opinion, just don't expect the rest of us to be of that same opinion.
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Post by fixit on Aug 21, 2013 5:15:38 GMT -5
Its quite simple Edgar: WINGS is not there to tear down the 2x2 church (which is clearly your agenda).
Wings is Working to INform Guide and Support Those Who Have Been Sexually Abused Within the Fellowship of Friends and Workers.
I believe Wings will be most effective when it is focused on CSA and 2x2-neutral.
i.e. the pros and cons of the 2x2 church should not be a concern of Wings.
The crash and burn types like yourself are better served by websites that despise all things 2x2.
“A good thing to remember
And a better thing to do,
Is to work with the construction gang
And not the wrecking crew.”
"Dogs may bark but the caravan moves on"
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Post by kencoolidge on Aug 21, 2013 5:31:26 GMT -5
Its quite simple Edgar: WINGS is not there to tear down the 2x2 church (which is clearly your agenda). Wings is Working to INform Guide and Support Those Who Have Been Sexually Abused Within the Fellowship of Friends and Workers. I believe Wings will be most effective when it is focused on CSA and 2x2-neutral. i.e. the pros and cons of the 2x2 church should not be a concern of Wings. The crash and burn types like yourself are better served by websites that despise all things 2x2. “A good thing to remember
And a better thing to do,
Is to work with the construction gang
And not the wrecking crew.”"Dogs may bark but the caravan moves on" Fix-it You can't I would submit to you that transparency and openess are qualities of Gods TRUTH. If that conflicts with what 2x2 teach then I guess I am also a wrecker as you put it. I try to post encouraging devotions and thoughts and build folks up. I believe for the most part there are those who post on here who do not value anything but workers and the system and its evident by their posts JMT ken
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 21, 2013 6:45:02 GMT -5
Its quite simple Edgar: WINGS is not there to tear down the 2x2 church (which is clearly your agenda). Wings is Working to INform Guide and Support Those Who Have Been Sexually Abused Within the Fellowship of Friends and Workers. I believe Wings will be most effective when it is focused on CSA and 2x2-neutral. i.e. the pros and cons of the 2x2 church should not be a concern of Wings. The crash and burn types like yourself are better served by websites that despise all things 2x2. “A good thing to remember
And a better thing to do,
Is to work with the construction gang
And not the wrecking crew.”"Dogs may bark but the caravan moves on" Fix-it You can't I would submit to you that transparency and openess are qualities of Gods TRUTH. If that conflicts with what 2x2 teach then I guess I am also a wrecker as you put it. I try to post encouraging devotions and thoughts and build folks up. I believe for the most part there are those who post on here who do not value anything but workers and the system and its evident by their postsJMT ken This is evident from both sides.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2013 6:46:03 GMT -5
Wings is Working to INform Guide and Support Those Who Have Been Sexually Abused Within the Fellowship of Friends and Workers. i.e. the pros and cons of the 2x2 church should not be a concern of Wings. Fixit -- I have understood from Wings representatives themselves that there is no particular purpose or capacity for Wings to 'INform Guide and Support Those Who Have Been Sexually Abused Within the Fellowship of Friends and Workers' (to use your words) At one time this was a purpose for the site ---- But according to a post I recieved a while back from the adminstrator, Wings lacks the capacity for support -- and I seriously question how they are going to reach victims to inform with the present policy of excluding the right for victims to express their honest feelings if they should include 2x2 negativity. I am sure that they do exist -- but all victims that I have come in contact with (and there have been quite a few turn up of recent years) have enormous problems with ignoring the ugly 2x2 policies that have been responsible for actively creating the abuse situations that victims have experienced -- and then the 2x2 policys of denying responsibility for the obvious cover ups and blame shifting that they have experienced. The present Wings restriction and denial of anti-2x2 expressions and feelings is far far more than most victims can be reasonably expected to bare.I also regard Wings present policies make it very very unlikely to reach or aid the large number of still silent victims that still haven't been able to share their burden as yet -- and thus far, chosen to suffer in loneliness and silence. There are literally hundreds of them out there yet!!! This would otherwise have been an obvious oppurtunity for Wings to serve the interests of the cause -- But of course this is hard (impossible) to do with 2x2ism blessing, Even if 2x2ism won't even officailly acknowledge Wings purpose -- Wings has chosen to barter to themselves 2x2 perifial approval, at the expence of the interests of victims. Now Wings seems to have revamped their policy to work more exclusively with prevention,and abandon the support function --- which in itself could be an important issue, --- IF it wasn't for the lack of reasonable reality when it completely lacks support from any form of organizational contact with even the slightest sliver of mandate. Edgar Investing in a water bowl for the fox as appeasement, doesn't make him less dangerous in the hen house!!! 2x2ism will always be 2x2ism
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 21, 2013 8:05:22 GMT -5
Wings is Working to INform Guide and Support Those Who Have Been Sexually Abused Within the Fellowship of Friends and Workers. i.e. the pros and cons of the 2x2 church should not be a concern of Wings. Fixit -- I have understood from Wings representatives themselves that there is no particular purpose or capacity for Wings to 'INform Guide and Support Those Who Have Been Sexually Abused Within the Fellowship of Friends and Workers' (to use your words) At one time this was a purpose for the site ---- But according to a post I recieved a while back from the adminstrator, Wings lacks the capacity for support -- and I seriously question how they are going to reach victims to inform with the present policy of excluding the right for victims to express their honest feelings if they should include 2x2 negativity. I am sure that they do exist -- but all victims that I have come in contact with (and there have been quite a few turn up of recent years) have enormous problems with ignoring the ugly 2x2 policies that have been responsible for actively creating the abuse situations that victims have experienced -- and then the 2x2 policys of denying responsibility for the obvious cover ups and blame shifting that they have experienced. The present Wings restriction and denial of anti-2x2 expressions and feelings is far far more than most victims can be reasonably expected to bare.I also regard Wings present policies make it very very unlikely to reach or aid the large number of still silent victims that still haven't been able to share their burden as yet -- and thus far, chosen to suffer in loneliness and silence. There are literally hundreds of them out there yet!!! This would otherwise have been an obvious oppurtunity for Wings to serve the interests of the cause -- But of course this is hard (impossible) to do with 2x2ism blessing, Even if 2x2ism won't even officailly acknowledge Wings purpose -- Wings has chosen to barter to themselves 2x2 perifial approval, at the expence of the interests of victims. Now Wings seems to have revamped their policy to work more exclusively with prevention,and abandon the support function --- which in itself could be an important issue, --- IF it wasn't for the lack of reasonable reality when it completely lacks support from any form of organizational contact with even the slightest sliver of mandate. Edgar Investing in a water bowl for the fox as appeasement, doesn't make him less dangerous in the hen house!!! 2x2ism will always be 2x2ism I never sent you any such message Edgar, and I am the administrator of WINGS. We do not ignore the ugly 2x2 policies that have been responsible for actively creating the abuse situations that victims have experienced -- and then the 2x2 policys of denying responsibility for the obvious cover ups and blame shifting that they have experienced. The present Wings restriction and denial of anti-2x2 expressions and feelings is far far more than most victims can be reasonably expected to bare.
WHERE are we restricting or denying people being allowed to express their feelings? I honestly do not think that you have even read the WINGS website, as you don't seem to have a clue what is actually there. This is part of what is posted on the Survivors Story section of WINGS: Every word of every survivor’s story is precious to them and reflects the complex circumstances of their abuse. The stories involve immediate and distant family, close friends, friends and workers in the fellowship and authorities. Many times some or all of those parties have failed in their duty to prevent abuse and to react properly to allegations of abuse. Although some of these stories occurred many years ago in circumstances that we might think no longer exist, they should be used as a warning to guard against any possibility of future CSA criminal activity.
Some stories canvas a spectrum of family disorder including emotional, physical, sexual and spiritual abuse. It is not possible or necessary to determine the root cause of such disorder; it is just necessary to work to support survivors and to prevent further abuse. This web site is focused purely on child sexual abuse but recognizes the importance of also dealing with all types of abuse. wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/victim-stories/And then when you scroll down the page, there are the stories. Click on any one and it takes you to the complete story. The ONLY difference is that the story is hosted on the BTS board in the section titled Abuse Survivors Stories. Previously, the same step to click on the story was there in order to access it, so there is nothing that has changed in that regard. Please point out where we have in any way censored anyone from telling their story in their own words. The BTS board is a place where survivors are welcome to join and post their thoughts, and also has a password protected area that they can be more open as well. Most survivors who have contacted WINGS over the years are registered members of the BTS. There is a misconception that most victims have left the fellowship. I believe that there are more who are still professing than have left. Of over 20 that came forward in the EB case, the majority are still in the fellowship. Also, there are quite a few workers who are also victims of sexual abuse, and some of them are out there offering us their support for what we do with WINGS. Again, your agenda against the fellowship seems to be the driving force in all that you post. I find your posts concerning WINGS to be uninformed in regard to the website.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 21, 2013 9:54:47 GMT -5
I also feel that I should allow you the last word in this discussion Edgar. It isn't real productive, and I think we have both expressed our opinions and thoughts on the subject (again). Since we are both entitled to our own opinions, and since it is obvious that we aren't going to change those opinions, further discussion with you on the subject isn't going to make much difference. Thanks for helping with getting people to read on WINGS and the BTS board though. That is one thing these discussions do, is to direct people to WINGS to see what all the fuss is about. So far, comments I have gotten are that we do work for and with abuse survivors, and that there is an appreciation for WINGS being willing to openly address the issues as we do. Most of the negative talk is from people such as yourself who would like to see us become another perceived 'anti 2x2' site, and dislike any attempt to help the fellowship deal with issues that it is facing. So.... over to you for the last word.....
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Post by What Hat on Aug 21, 2013 10:38:06 GMT -5
The final reality is that any change within the friends and workers movement has to be driven from within the movement, by the workers. Even if they don't change, which I don't believe is the case, we still have to act on the basis that they will.
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Post by sharingtheriches on Aug 21, 2013 11:33:04 GMT -5
Fix-it You can't I would submit to you that transparency and openess are qualities of Gods TRUTH. If that conflicts with what 2x2 teach then I guess I am also a wrecker as you put it. I try to post encouraging devotions and thoughts and build folks up. I believe for the most part there are those who post on here who do not value anything but workers and the system and its evident by their postsJMT ken This is evident from both sides. Posterchild, perhaps you've uncovered the "real" problem! As victims more often are going to be very anti-establishment that their perpatrators of abuse are seeking more to "restore" the perp then the victim....we are going to see more victims as anti-2x2ism then we will find victims that are pro-2x2ism! This is the nature of mankind! So yes, we're going to se that "both sides" are full of evidence of the "pro's and con's" in accordance to the religious base.....that said NOT all pro's or con's or going to be having their "agenda" but are seeking to "tell it like it is" from their experienced viewpoint. Too bad that we couldn't just come to the conclusion until ALL people experience the same exact thing there ARE going to be people who are pro and who are con! This is where the "love" factor should take over, IMO.....and yes, I understand that is almost impossible in some instances!
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Post by kencoolidge on Aug 21, 2013 12:15:53 GMT -5
Fix-it You can't I would submit to you that transparency and openess are qualities of Gods TRUTH. If that conflicts with what 2x2 teach then I guess I am also a wrecker as you put it. I try to post encouraging devotions and thoughts and build folks up. I believe for the most part there are those who post on here who do not value anything but workers and the system and its evident by their postsJMT ken This is evident from both sides. Linford I hope what you mean is thatI show interest in the TRUTH as many on here do. I do not call names or label others has been a routine thing for some posters. I guess I could make a list of names called by others I have valued the time I spent in the 2x2 denomination. I appreciated the confidence that workers had to put a meeting in our home. I felt a responcibility to encourage and express what God put on my heart. It was a rude awenkening to find workers lying, fornicating and casting dipersions on others when it wasn't true. All is sweetness and light if you don't buck or question the sytem but heaven help you if you question a workers decision. I never heard a worker apologize to anyone even when they were wrong. It was experiences about what workers suffered when leaving the work that was the straw that broke the camels back. God worked out an escape route for us as a family but the workers false accusations about us still were hard to take. I tend to agree with Edgar that there is a feeling of betrayal in letting workers have a say in wings. They if righteous and conscientious would have cleaned up their act a long time ago. Giving whoever the worker input is from the benefit of the doubt only compounds a solution for the victims who find this as another way to discount what they say. The workers could support wings not for the victims sake but their own. Wings only advice to victims should be to go to law enforcementwith their problems. Glad Gods righteousness doesn't have a time limit and for those who waited too long thats about the only spiritual encouragement they get. ken
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2013 13:05:26 GMT -5
Personally I have no problem with any worker having an input to WINGS provided their motives are genuinely directed at protecting children and dealing properly with victims of abuse. In fact, that is what is needed (not that I am suggesting there is a lack on WINGS)to show that some workers are prepared to step forward and do the right thing and start putting the sword to system first protectionism.
Until I see this type of real commitment I can only view their "apparent" concerns as nothing more than a rather heavy bowel evacuation!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2013 14:51:43 GMT -5
I also feel that I should allow you the last word in this discussion Edgar. It isn't real productive, and I think we have both expressed our opinions and thoughts on the subject (again). Since we are both entitled to our own opinions, and since it is obvious that we aren't going to change those opinions, further discussion with you on the subject isn't going to make much difference. Thanks for helping with getting people to read on WINGS and the BTS board though. That is one thing these discussions do, is to direct people to WINGS to see what all the fuss is about. So far, comments I have gotten are that we do work for and with abuse survivors, and that there is an appreciation for WINGS being willing to openly address the issues as we do. Most of the negative talk is from people such as yourself who would like to see us become another perceived 'anti 2x2' site, and dislike any attempt to help the fellowship deal with issues that it is facing. So.... over to you for the last word..... Definitely, we are all grateful for Edgar's interest in WINGS which has raised the profile of WINGS and as a result, CSA. It's all good..... regardless of Edgar's occasionally-odd pronouncements regarding WINGS. For direct support, there is the BTS site: wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgiFor education, information, guidance and support there is the web site: wingsfortruth.info/For parental information and education for CSA as well as other abuses, readers can check this page: wingsfortruth.info/resources/parents/For news such as the current letter sent out to elders and overseers from a Texas couple: wingsfortruth.info/category/news/
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Post by fixit on Aug 21, 2013 17:05:34 GMT -5
Should the workers be allowed to influence the content of Wings?
Absolutely yes, if they provide input that contributes towards Wings objectives.
Should post-professing people be allowed to influence the content of Wings?
Absolutely yes, if they provide input that contributes towards Wings objectives.
Wings Objectives:
To provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA and to support victims of CSA. Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the fellowship in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs through CSA, especially when its impact is trivialized or ignored.
Wings should not be anti-2x2 or pro-2x2.
Wings will be most effective when it is 2x2 neutral.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 21, 2013 17:31:08 GMT -5
This is evident from both sides. Posterchild, perhaps you've uncovered the "real" problem! As victims more often are going to be very anti-establishment that their perpatrators of abuse are seeking more to "restore" the perp then the victim....we are going to see more victims as anti-2x2ism then we will find victims that are pro-2x2ism! This is the nature of mankind! So yes, we're going to se that "both sides" are full of evidence of the "pro's and con's" in accordance to the religious base.....that said NOT all pro's or con's or going to be having their "agenda" but are seeking to "tell it like it is" from their experienced viewpoint. Too bad that we couldn't just come to the conclusion until ALL people experience the same exact thing there ARE going to be people who are pro and who are con! This is where the "love" factor should take over, IMO.....and yes, I understand that is almost impossible in some instances! With God nothing is impossible. The first step in making it happen is believe it will happen.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Aug 21, 2013 17:34:33 GMT -5
Should the workers be allowed to influence the content of Wings?Absolutely yes, if they provide input that contributes towards Wings objectives. Should post-professing people be allowed to influence the content of Wings?Absolutely yes, if they provide input that contributes towards Wings objectives. Wings Objectives:To provide information, support and guidance on every aspect of CSA and to support victims of CSA. Our ultimate hope is to encourage change within the fellowship in order to protect others from the devastation that occurs through CSA, especially when its impact is trivialized or ignored.Wings should not be anti-2x2 or pro-2x2. Wings will be most effective when it is 2x2 neutral. Wings is about people that have been or are oppressed. Not anti 2x2 or pro 2x2
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Post by Greg on Aug 21, 2013 18:08:03 GMT -5
Any worker endorsements and/or specific worker help for the abused that might be indicted on the site or linked by the site?
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Post by fixit on Aug 21, 2013 18:16:30 GMT -5
Any worker endorsements and/or specific worker help for the abused that might be indicted on the site or linked by the site? Could that be done without a backlash of at least 20 TMB pages of condemnation about worker control of Wings?
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Post by faune on Aug 21, 2013 18:39:22 GMT -5
My personal feelings are that workers should not be allowed to influence the content of WINGS, due to their past performance of trying to cover-up anything that would portray the fellowship in an unfavorable light ~ especially CSA. The actions of overseers in moving offenders to other states or locations to avoid dealing with the issues and hide the truth, even at the risk of other children by the same abusers, doesn't exactly gender trust? In fact, it's despicable on their part!
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Post by fixit on Aug 21, 2013 19:43:10 GMT -5
It seems there's a misconception here.
If "the workers" tried to influence Wings I can't imagine it would ever happen.
Just as if "the exes" tried to influence Wings I can't imagine it would ever happen.
However if individual workers, friends or exes had useful input it would be pretty stupid to turn them away.
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