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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 30, 2013 12:10:50 GMT -5
By Wings, I mean the wingsfortruth.info website, whose purpose originally was to help be a support for victims of CSA within the friends and workers group, for those that has been a victim of sexual abuse while being a member within the fellowship.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 13:44:07 GMT -5
Why bother with this poll. They all ready do. Until you have victims that are part of WINGS and are WILLING to stand UP to the WORKERS nothing will ever change!!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 14:06:02 GMT -5
I think it is a good poll.
WINGS is not directly influenced by workers now. It is a fair discussion as to whether this should be encouraged in the future.
Personally, I view workers on an individual basis as just another person and it doesn't matter to me if they are a first year worker or a long time overseer. No better or no worse than anyone else unless they prove themselves differently. So they should stand up and make their views known rather than avoiding WINGS as they do now.
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Post by emy on Jun 30, 2013 14:20:55 GMT -5
The only people who should influence CONTENT are the people who manage the site. No reasons others can't make suggestions, but those who manage it should carefully consider the effect.
I see a real possibility that some victims might want counsel from a worker concerning their "case." I understand some workers are available for that and I would hope that would continue. CSA is not "about" the workers in every situation.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 14:29:47 GMT -5
The only people who should influence CONTENT are the people who manage the site. No reasons others can't make suggestions, but those who manage it should carefully consider the effect. I see a real possibility that some victims might want counsel from a worker concerning their "case." I understand some workers are available for that and I would hope that would continue. CSA is not "about" the workers in every situation. I would rephrase that. The only people who should decide on content are the site managers. Management should consider the input of all people who care enough to submit their views. It would be wrong to shun anyone.
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Post by snow on Jun 30, 2013 15:38:24 GMT -5
I thought Scott made it quite clear that the stories were not moved at anyone's request. It was a decision HE made. HE runs the site. HE talks to everyone involved. He HE knows the dynamics. He's an ex so he isn't likely to bow down to the workers. If he can see how the two sites linked is a win win for CSA reduction in the future, then why can't people accept he just might know what he's doing and knows what he is talking about? It's a very complex issue and if anyone understands it, Scott should. I am sure he's doing the very best he knows how with a subject he is passionate about and works hard at. It is such a political and controversial subject in the 2x2's that it must be very difficult for the Wings volunteers.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 30, 2013 15:41:49 GMT -5
Why bother with this poll. They all ready do. Until you have victims that are part of WINGS and are WILLING to stand UP to the WORKERS nothing will ever change!!!! The original WINGS group included 3 CSA victims.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 30, 2013 15:50:30 GMT -5
I thought Scott made it quite clear that the stories were not moved at anyone's request. It was a decision HE made. HE runs the site. HE talks to everyone involved. He HE knows the dynamics. He's an ex so he isn't likely to bow down to the workers. If he can see how the two sites linked is a win win for CSA reduction in the future, then why can't people accept he just might know what he's doing and knows what he is talking about? It's a very complex issue and if anyone understands it, Scott should. I am sure he's doing the very best he knows how with a subject he is passionate about and works hard at. It is such a political and controversial subject in the 2x2's that it must be very difficult for the Wings volunteers. No, Scott is the one that opened my eyes to what was happening on the site. And for that, I applaud his openess. And Scott is a big boy that can handle questions and comments. At least, that is the opinion that I have of him. And like I said, this isn't personal to Scott. The issue is much bigger than that. Again, here is what Scott said:
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 30, 2013 15:51:55 GMT -5
Why bother with this poll. They all ready do. Until you have victims that are part of WINGS and are WILLING to stand UP to the WORKERS nothing will ever change!!!! The original WINGS group included 3 CSA victims. How many of the WINGS group (those that make content decisions) now are CSA victims?
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Post by snow on Jun 30, 2013 16:05:42 GMT -5
I thought Scott made it quite clear that the stories were not moved at anyone's request. It was a decision HE made. HE runs the site. HE talks to everyone involved. He HE knows the dynamics. He's an ex so he isn't likely to bow down to the workers. If he can see how the two sites linked is a win win for CSA reduction in the future, then why can't people accept he just might know what he's doing and knows what he is talking about? It's a very complex issue and if anyone understands it, Scott should. I am sure he's doing the very best he knows how with a subject he is passionate about and works hard at. It is such a political and controversial subject in the 2x2's that it must be very difficult for the Wings volunteers. No, Scott is the one that opened my eyes to what was happening on the site. And for that, I applaud his openess. And Scott is a big boy that can handle questions and comments. At least, that is the opinion that I have of him. And like I said, this isn't personal to Scott. The issue is much bigger than that. Again, here is what Scott said: Yes, he did say that. He also said it was his decision, no one else's. He felt it made sense. He likely does know a lot more than most people about what will work and what won't. I would say ask the victims if they are upset by this or see the wisdom in trying to separate the two objectives of Wings. One site for advocacy and the other for support and healing. That's how most Sexual Assault Centers are set up. They do both, separately.
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 30, 2013 16:41:20 GMT -5
Emy, I can not believe that you wrote some "victims might want counsel from a worker concerning their case".
The workers are the last people that someone should go to if they have been sexually abused. Of course the workers are going to protect their church making sure it does not get out and certainly not on this or WINGs sites where the person can get help. Workers are not equipped to handle sexual abuse. The best and only advice they should be giving is for the person to go to an experienced sexual abuse counsellor. My guess is that the worker might want to talk to the offender and 'get his side' who will adamently deny the abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 17:05:25 GMT -5
I think all most victims what is to be treated with respect by ALL "friends and workers" Is that to much to ask? ?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 17:55:10 GMT -5
I find this a difficult question to answer simply, so much depends on the specifics.
My concern would be that it may compromise the objectives of WINGS in the long term.
One of the factors that may put the 2by2 group/members at risk of CSA is the way the 'workers' exert their influence. Faceless, nameless, behind the scences with a complete lack of transperancy and accountability. Allowing them to continue this method of influence may make WINGS part of the problem and not the solution.
I wonder if there is some degree of underlying conflict between the objectives of support/advocacy and the ultimate hope of change. Are the first two objectives being compromised by this third, underlying objective? Personally I don't see the three as compatible.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 30, 2013 18:02:40 GMT -5
I find this a difficult question to answer simply, so much depends on the specifics. My concern would be that it may compromise the objectives of WINGS in the long term. One of the factors that may put the 2by2 group/members at risk of CSA is the way the 'workers' exert their influence. Faceless, nameless, behind the scences with a complete lack of transperancy and accountability. Allowing them to continue this method of influence may make WINGS part of the problem and not the solution. Exactly my concern.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jun 30, 2013 18:12:44 GMT -5
No, Scott is the one that opened my eyes to what was happening on the site. And for that, I applaud his openess. And Scott is a big boy that can handle questions and comments. At least, that is the opinion that I have of him. And like I said, this isn't personal to Scott. The issue is much bigger than that. Again, here is what Scott said: Yes, he did say that. He also said it was his decision, no one else's. He felt it made sense. He likely does know a lot more than most people about what will work and what won't. I would say ask the victims if they are upset by this or see the wisdom in trying to separate the two objectives of Wings. One site for advocacy and the other for support and healing. That's how most Sexual Assault Centers are set up. They do both, separately. RE: Yes, he (Scott) did say that. He also said it was his decision, no one else's.Yes, the final vote or decision may have been up to Scott, as the WINGS Admin, but there is no doubt in my mind that some of the other the WINGS group members were consulted and/or voiced their opinions, one being clearday, who stated he is taking a "hard stand" on the location of the CSA stories (I think that was what he called his position). This decision was not made by Scott working in isolation from the rest of the WINGS group. Also, it is normal for the Administrator or President, etc. to take the blame for actions of a group s/he is head of, when challenged. Regarding experience, ever since its inception, WINGS has been groping its way, and it still is. It has to be that way since they are in uncharted territory, and I doubt there is anyone who has ever been part of the WINGS group who had personal experience in what WINGS is attempting to accomplish. This being the case, they make many moves in the dark, pull back, regroup, go forward, etc. This is just normal for a new group with no precedent. WINGS likely has a board similar to this on which they discuss issues...we used a yahoogroup list back when I was with WINGS.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jun 30, 2013 18:17:52 GMT -5
Influence of the workers on Wings to me is a "something out there in the dark" scare tactics. I am registered with Wings and trust those that administer the site.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 18:39:18 GMT -5
Influence of the workers on Wings to me is a "something out there in the dark" scare tactics. I am registered with Wings and trust those that administer the site. I doubt there is one person on the WINGS advisory group who would be scared or influenced by a worker just because they are a worker. If anything, there would be some extra probing about a worker's sincerity if a worker offered to help. It would be really great though if a worker stepped up to the plate and offered to interface with other workers and overseers in church cases which have gone bad. The problem is the territorial system. Any worker trying to do that would get thumped by his/her colleagues for being "out of their place". It's a difficult system to work with. I think anyone involved in 2x2 advocacy work knows that.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 30, 2013 18:45:48 GMT -5
Influence of the workers on Wings to me is a "something out there in the dark" scare tactics. I am registered with Wings and trust those that administer the site. I doubt there is one person on the WINGS advisory group who would be scared or influenced by a worker just because they are a worker. If anything, there would be some extra probing about a worker's sincerity if a worker offered to help. It would be really great though if a worker stepped up to the plate and offered to interface with other workers and overseers in church cases which have gone bad. The problem is the territorial system. Any worker trying to do that would get thumped by his/her colleagues for being "out of their place". It's a difficult system to work with. I think anyone involved in 2x2 advocacy work knows that. It is an extremely difficult system to work with, I don't envy the task. Easily entreated, it isn't.
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Post by fixit on Jun 30, 2013 18:56:38 GMT -5
Influence of the workers on Wings to me is a "something out there in the dark" scare tactics. I am registered with Wings and trust those that administer the site. Exactly Lin. Why shouldn't workers be encouraged to give feedback on the WINGS website? Its foolish to classify workers as the enemy and exclude them from attempts to eradicate this scourge from the fellowship. There's no need for WINGS to be an anti-2x2 website. If I was a worker I wouldn't point people to an anti-2x2 website, and I hope people would appreciate my openness in stating that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 19:13:30 GMT -5
It doesn't have to be anti-workers or pro-worker. It should be pro-victim. Let's stop the labeling.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 19:16:22 GMT -5
It doesn't have to be anti-workers or pro-worker. It should be pro-victim. Let's stop the labeling. You just labeled. Good label though.
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Post by fixit on Jun 30, 2013 19:39:24 GMT -5
It doesn't have to be anti-workers or pro-worker. It should be pro-victim. Let's stop the labeling. That's exactly my point. It should be neither anti-worker or pro-worker. Some folks would accept nothing less than anti-worker.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 19:41:41 GMT -5
lol
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 19:41:58 GMT -5
lol
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Post by boogabooga on Jun 30, 2013 19:49:35 GMT -5
Why isnt there a button on the poll for "HELL NO!" ?? Sorry, I just had to ask!
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Post by chester on Jun 30, 2013 19:52:51 GMT -5
On a serious note, the best influence that we hope and dream for is that they would react in a Godly manner by admitting what has happened, apologizing, begging for forgiveness, cleaning house; and from hearts filled with compassion, offer restitution for the victims and their families without even being asked for it. That is the very best influence they could give.
Chester Former member of the WINGS group.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 20:05:04 GMT -5
Influence of the workers on Wings to me is a "something out there in the dark" scare tactics. I am registered with Wings and trust those that administer the site. Exactly Lin. Why shouldn't workers be encouraged to give feedback on the WINGS website? Its foolish to classify workers as the enemy and exclude them from attempts to eradicate this scourge from the fellowship. There's no need for WINGS to be an anti-2x2 website. If I was a worker I wouldn't point people to an anti-2x2 website, and I hope people would appreciate my openness in stating that. I assumed we were discussing a back room influence, ie. WINGS board: would you recommend our site to the friends? Workers: not until you change x. y & Z. If I got that wrong apologies. If not, then I question some of your post fixit. It is unquestionable that the current public stance of the worker group (no stance?) is well behind what the broader community expects of those who work with children and it appears to be resisting change.It is also unquestionable that some of the workers have been perpertrators, others have hid the crimes. How can we be sure those influencing aren't included or one of the groups? Wouldn't be the first organisation involved in CSA prevention to be infiltrated Does this make the workers the enemy? No, but it suggests WINGS should be very careful about how it involves the worker group and how it appears to involve the group. Regarding "no need for WINGS to be an anti-2x2 website?" My impression has always been it is a subtly pro-2by2 if anything, whilst attempting to be objective. Preventing any questionable influence, remaining transparent and accountable is not being anti-2by2. Allowing individuals to describe experiences and express opinions that are anti-2by2 does not make the site anti-2by2. It depends on your individual definition. That said, it may in fact be entirely necessary for the WINGS to appear anti-2by2 (depending on your definition). Advocating for change is always characterised as "anti-" by those resisting that change. I've been working with youth for many decades with various gov, NGO & religous organisations. I honestly cannot see the 2by2 group, and workers in particular, easily, if ever, adopting the sort of policies and processes that these organisations have put in place to deal with CSA. For example, there is no way the regional/individual fiefdom can continue, or the unchallengeable power of the overseers. I can't see the worker group willingly accepting this change.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jun 30, 2013 20:39:19 GMT -5
On a serious note, the best influence that we hope and dream for is that they would react in a Godly manner by admitting what has happened, apologizing, begging for forgiveness, cleaning house; and from hearts filled with compassion, offer restitution for the victims and their families without even being asked for it. That is the very best influence they could give. Chester Former member of the WINGS group. Exactly.
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